Did ITV once mention the exchanges ?

It is hardly surprising as even the dedicated channels give very little mention. I know many bookmaker punters who have no idea what a betting exchange is.
Only the other week I heard Chapman on ATR mention a horse that was a few points bigger on here than the books and all he could say was that you might only get a few pounds on and that was just 5 minutes before the off with about 3k to back.

Apart from the very big meetings how often can you get more than £100 on in a shop or on course? Perhaps Betfair need to increase their advertising spend with ITV.

if they did, it would be re. Sportsbook before the Exchange!

Why would you expect them to? Betting with bookmakers or exchanges was the least of punters problems at Ascot. A loser paid the same on both.

You say all the channels don't mention the exchanges but does not one of the channels show both bookie and exchange prices next to each other, I am thinking it is ATR or RacingUK, perhaps the users of these channels could confirm ?.

ATR always do.

Thanks Sage, I thought one of them did. Its scandalous that they do not show exchange prices. How would you all feel if during the coverage of Chester races they only showed ChesterBet prices

I would say that Chester were promoting their own interests which is fine but no doubt RUK would have something to say about that. No course is obliged to advertise betting but they all see that it is in their interest to do so.

Punters either lost more money than they should have or won less than they should have by not being made aware of the exchanges by ITV and yet many on here are patting their backs over the coverage

OliasOfSunhillow    25 Jun 17 13:47 
You say all the channels don't mention the exchanges but does not one of the channels show both bookie and exchange prices next to each other, I am thinking it is ATR or RacingUK, perhaps the users of these channels could confirm ?.




I said very little mention which is quite different to no mention, olias.

Hardly surprising considering ITV Racing is sponsored by W*ll*am H*ll.

chapman regularly spouts the "yes it's 3 times the price on the exchange but you can only get pennies on" garbage. 

almost as if someone is paying him to say it ....

That's it hulk with Chapman as I mentioned earlier. To be fair I don't think Chapman knows anything about exchange betting and I'm sure he once said he never even had a betfair account. A proper bookies man.

ITV afternoon audience is hardly the platform for discussing exchanges. They are for people who are experienced gamblers. More of an issue that they are barely discussed on RUK.

With the majority of the ITV betting audience getting double result, BOG, enhanced places/terms etc they are better off away from the shark infested waters here.

I'm sure an ITV punter who has backed a 20/1 winner might like to know he could have got another 50% extra on here. But better to be on the safe side and pretend that you can only bet with bookmakers.

The water of the bookmaker and those of the exchange are one of the same except you get greater protection on here because you will randomly lose less in the pound. People having a bet at Royal Ascot at say 20/1 on a horse 5 mins before the off deserve to be told that its 40/1 on here

They could possibly do a piece on the influence that exchanges have on the betting markets, but a running commentary on the betfair exchange sp of outsiders that win wouldn't be helpful in my view. The concessions of the trads in the bigger meetings more than make up for the enhanced price of backing a rare winning outsider on the exchange.

Concessions or not they will still be betting to 120% or more as opposed to 101% on here.

Best prices are not 120, and obviously betfair is not 101 with commission. The vast majority of casuals watching on ITV are a) not all that interested in betting percentages, and b) not backing 25/1 shots. They just want a winner usually. 99.9% of people who are price conscious will already be aware of betting exchanges. This is the domain (or should be) of the specialist channels. They don't discuss the Tote either on ITV, as guess what most casuals are not interested or bothered.

big mac knew nothing about the exchanges either.hes used look in puzzlement at tanya when she would start talking about it..

Chapman is much younger than Mac and ought to know about the exchanges. A younger McCririck would have been far more on the ball.

matt chapman is a first class idiot

Be in no doubt,Chapman is fully conversant with the exchanges.
He often quotes the unfair criticism he gets from us forumites.

Jun 25, 2017 -- 4:24PM, kavvie wrote:

big mac knew nothing about the exchanges either.hes used look in puzzlement at tanya when she would start talking about it..

The exchanges were slowly robbing him of his MO, so he used to want people to think he knew nothing about the 'machine'. I recall he either became sponsored by them, or was taking gravy from someone who became sponsored by them, and he suddenly became very aware of betfair and didn't shut up about their markets for a short time

I must have missed any mention of the Exchanges on ITV Racing if so. Harbour Law returned 33/1 when at the off he was showing 70 here.

impossible123    25 Jun 17 17:46 
I must have missed any mention of the Exchanges on ITV Racing if so. Harbour Law returned 33/1 when at the off he was showing 70 here.




Yet still some people seem to think it's not too important to tell ITV viewers they could have more than doubled their winnings.
Bookmakers of course wouldn't want the viewers to know.

That's why in their adverts they say "we have the best prices in the high street",and show comparisons with the other robbing bars tads.
Never mentioning of course,that Betfair aren't on the high streets,so in theory not lying just not showing the whole truth.

Why are Betfair (Sportsbook) not have a representation on the high street to raise their profile and to generate more interest to the their Fixed Odds and Exchanges? I think they are missing a trick.

anybody who isnt aware of betfair is hardly the type to suddenly start tackling the idiosyncracies of it on the prompting of matt chapman

All it needs is for the prices to be displayed alongside the bookmaker prices as ATR do. Matt Chapman knows or cares nothing about exchange betting anyway.

I think the complexities of exchange pricing would be difficult to get across in the ITV format. eg where would they find a sufficient slot in their schedule to explain the following?


Premium Charges

The Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair Exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.

In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.

Any customer affected by the Premium Charge will be notified in advance.
Calculating Potential Charges

Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.

You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.

The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.

While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.

Each customer will also have a £1,000 allowance against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge incurred.

Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20%† of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:

    The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
    The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

This means that you will not be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20%† of your gross profits for the previous week. Please note this figure applies exclusively to the maximum amount of Premium Charge payable. It is possible for the total amount of Premium Charges and commission paid to exceed 20%†.

Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account is less than the same calculation for the previous week.

Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).

Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.

In circumstances where Betfair considers, in its absolute discretion, that multiple accounts have been used by one person or group of persons in order to avoid or reduce liability for the Premium Charge, Betfair shall be entitled to treat those accounts as if they relate to one person for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. In such circumstances Betfair shall link those accounts and the linked accounts shall be jointly and severally liable for any unpaid Premium Charge. The Premium Charge will be debited from any such account(s) where applicable.

*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.

**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes half the commission paid on winnings, but also half the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:

    Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
    where
    Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
    We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.

Premium Charge Summary

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:

    Your account is in profit;
    Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
    You bet in more than 250 markets.

Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:

    Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
    Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:

    The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
    The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

Examples

    Example 1
    You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 800 markets.
    You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated.
    You have not been charged any Premium Charges to date although you have fully used up your allowance of £1,000.
    During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80.
    You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) - £80 = £20).

    Example 2 - Charge Allowance
    You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 320 markets.
    You have generated £1,050 in commission and paid no Premium Charge to date.
    During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50.
    In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) - £50 = £50).
    However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid.
    You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.

    Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
    You have won gross profits of £8,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 500 markets.
    You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
    During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125.
    As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits since joining Betfair, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge.
    However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
    After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.

†Premium Charges at higher rates

Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:

    Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
    Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
    Bet in more than 1,000 markets

The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio     Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5%     60%
5% - 10%     50%
10%+     40%

Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.

If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.

The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.

For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the “Calculating Potential Charges” section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.

It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ‘overpaid’ when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks’ notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.

***By ‘net profits’ we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited.

your average itv viewer wants a friendly punt,hes not a maniacal price obsessed betfair forumite tbf

who wants to wait a week to get his winnings in his bank account

happy to diss the exchange price on the basis "you can only get pennies on"

but chooses to ignore that 87% of bet356 accounts are limited to buttons when he quotes their price ...

some balance please Matthew

So these ITV viewers are just as successful as the people on this thread whereby they would all pay the Premium Charge.

these people are recreational punters who see it as an occassional event betting on a horse,maybe a multi on a saturday.

can you even place multis on the exchange?im on here all the time and havent a clue

Mouse,nobody who bets outside Betfair will need to know about Premium Charges,totally irrelevant to Micky-mouse punters,no need for an explanation.
Even on here,unlikely it affects 1% of us.

he'll come and say boilsports were going 9/2 about that one earlier, only about a dozen people in britain got an unrestricted boilpsorts account and they have no high st presence ...

The key message ITV should be getting across then is:

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WIN

I do not see the diss about one can only get pennies on the Exchange as credible as any race transmitted by ITV Racing the Exchange markets have been sufficiently liquid to absorb any surge in interests, and the big races speak for themselves as demonstrated at Ascot where over £2.5m traded on the Commonwealth and/or Gold Cup alone, if memory serves.

You can get more or less what you want on the exchanges in the 5 or 10 minutes before the off.

correct, a better argument would be you can get double the odds but you need to be tech-savvy, a lot of the 'older generation' (which is probably the gambling on horses generation) wouldn't know how to switch a laptop on ..

these people only want a score or tenner or multi,if they were betting bigger theyd be clued up;they just want a bet on a horse and the money in their bank or arse profit.

you all seem to think everyone is as engulfed in horse racing and profit no matter what as you are-most people couldnt give a fcuk its just a bit of cheap mindless entertainment

*arse pocket

hulk23    25 Jun 17 19:01 
correct, a better argument would be you can get double the odds but you need to be tech-savvy, a lot of the 'older generation' (which is probably the gambling on horses generation) wouldn't know how to switch a laptop on.




I somehow manage to turn my laptop on hulk. Incredible what some of us pensioners can actually manage to do.

With how much the exchanges are taking out of horse racing they don't deserve a mention imo

that's why i said a lot and not all sparrow.  i talk to pensioners about the horses regularly, mention the exchanges and they look at me like i'm talking chinese ..

" The water of the bookmaker and those of the exchange are one of the same except you get greater protection on here because you will randomly lose less in the pound. People having a bet at Royal Ascot at say 20/1 on a horse 5 mins before the off deserve to be told that its 40/1 on here "

Many of the Ascot punters will be betting on the Tote or at the course betting shops as they either are afraid of bookies or don't really understand. prices. I know a lot of regular racegoers who never bet with the course bookies. They place their multiples before they come and their other bets with the course betting shops. Just look at the queues at their windows.

You are right about many of the older generation as they choose not to embrace the new technologies. But of course younger people have nothing like the same enthusiasm for horse or greyhound racing. I myself am quite happy to no longer have to use bookmakers and haven't done so for more than 12 years now.

Agree with cider's comments. This thread should really be aimed at the much vaunted/overrated RUK.

If people are hooked by ITV they will no doubt discover exchanges and then make a decision as to whether to use them or not.

RUK as a dedicated racing channel have no right to withhold information such as exchange prices from their customers. They only make the odd reference to the exchanges when a horse gets beat at short odds in running.

drumy my angle is the same as his but i drink a lot more cider than him

" correct, a better argument would be you can get double the odds but you need to be tech-savvy, a lot of the 'older generation' (which is probably the gambling on horses generation) wouldn't know how to switch a laptop on.


I somehow manage to turn my laptop on hulk. Incredible what some of us pensioners can actually manage to do"

Some like me actually worked with main frame computers in 1964 and later using PC's and running company networks and now/still build our own computers.

" You are right about many of the older generation as they choose not to embrace the new technologies. But of course younger people have nothing like the same enthusiasm for horse or greyhound racing. I myself am quite happy to no longer have to use bookmakers and haven't done so for more than 12 years now"

You should always look at the Bookies web sites for offers and to check prices. Exchange prices are not always the best and if you are wrong in taking an early exchange price the Bookies at least give you the higher SP.

Chavman:

" can you even place multis on the exchange?im on here all the time and havent a clue "
You must have your blinkers on permanently  as your screen has MULTIPLES under form and results

usually operating under the influence of about 20 cans of bow and even then they do bog

usually operating under the influence of about 20 cans of bow and even then they do bog

*they dont do bog

Oldgit, most of my betting is in the place only markets so bookmakers are of no interest to me.

Are your place bets on outsiders or short priced horses?
I find that Betfair place prices on shorter priced horses are usually unattractive. I often do place only on 4 or 5 place options on outsiders.

Mostly larger priced horses and sometimes in the 4 place markets and 3 places for 6 or 7 runners etc. To me the bookmaker each way bet is too rigid and outdated now. For example I might just want 20% to win and 80% to place.

RUK costs £20+, doesn't show exchange prices, employs Nevison as a betting 'expert' and some people are still happy to just rubbish ATR?

To get back to the original post (not sure why it mutated into a general discussion on bertfair's charging mechanism (never explained properly) and user's betting practices): does ITV mention "the exchanges"? Unless they've slipped it into the "fashion" section, it appears not. Why would they? The programme is not designed to cover a slightly important aspect of horse racing, namely betting. Chapman meanders aimlessly around the ring, annoying everyone and saying he predicts that the favourite will go off at 9/4 and not 5/2 when he should be telling us of the movements from 25/1 to 12/1 etc. Under C4 at least Tanya very accurately reported betting movements and exchange prices. Which would you rather back? a 16/1 shot showing at 17.5 or one showing at 24 on Bertfair? I know I would have a long look at the 24 horse and wonder why it is that price. That is what I want Chumpman to be reporting. Any chance? Nil. The muppets in charge of ITV racing would not have a clue what I am talking about.

As I'm sure you all realise, in these thoroughly cynical times, nothing, repeat nothing, appears in the media unless it's serving an agenda or someone has indirectly paid to place it there.

If Betfair put up the coin, they'd be included...