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won the Derby and looked miserable.
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Seamie won't either especially after the ride he gave him last time.
Probably as they all smashed on Cliffs like I did, sick as a pig right now.
harder to talk up as a superstar with the previous form
people will just say worst derby ever etc
people will just say worst derby ever etc
Yeah. That was likely his 6th string given the jockey bookings. Also looked like Venice Beach finished like 2nd last. Small reversal of form.
Poor Beggy will probably be deported back to Australia. Seamie would have known better.
Time to retire Wings Of Eagles and let 2nd, 3rd and 4th boost the form
The winning jock didn't even want to win imo.
He's seen his stable mate in front of him is going to win (the one they want to win and was meant to win) and gone easy on his then realised he just had no choice but to go and win it.
That's what the aerial view shows me anyway.
He's seen his stable mate in front of him is going to win (the one they want to win and was meant to win) and gone easy on his then realised he just had no choice but to go and win it.
That's what the aerial view shows me anyway.
Venice BEach backed into Evens IR when WOE coming with a run...white hat and pale pick hat do look very similar tbf.
That's what happens when you run 6.
If he knew his best horses better, and only ran them, there wouldn't be surprises!
If he knew his best horses better, and only ran them, there wouldn't be surprises!
Moore beat again,I though when Cliffs hit the front,that was it.
Jun 3, 2017 -- 10:51AM, tanglefoot wrote:
Moore beat again,I though when Cliffs hit the front,that was it.
Same can't believe it, sickener.
Moher would have been the next Sea the Stars with as much pace as Dayjur. Nothing to talk up now.
Studious_1 • June 3, 2017 4:51 PM BST
The winning jock didn't even want to win imo.
I thought exactly the same. Didn't even celebrate after the line
The winning jock didn't even want to win imo.
I thought exactly the same. Didn't even celebrate after the line
Paddy to retire with his 90 grand-goes out at the very top......
First impression was they've gone too hard !
Coolmore Mafia well p!ssed off !
El Gran Senor springs to mind !
Coolmore Mafia well p!ssed off !
El Gran Senor springs to mind !
Hmmmm , not sure anything there will have put many people in mind of El Gran Senor
Jun 3, 2017 -- 11:01AM, MayoMan wrote:
What did Cliffs of Moher hit in running ?
1.11 £116
1.12 £5,802
1.13 £2,464
1.14 £2,131
1.15 £1,514
1.16 £17,574
1.17 £1,125
1.18 £785
1.19 £7,883
1.2 £5,145
1.21 £2,532
1.22 £4,157
1.23 £614
1.24 £2,899
1.25 £2,931
1.26 £3,055
1.27 £363
1.28 £1,555
1.29 £391
1.3 £7,770
1.31 £3,582
Jun 3, 2017 -- 10:52AM, howard wrote:
Moher would have been the next Sea the Stars with as much pace as Dayjur. Nothing to talk up now.
Yep .If that race panned out the same in every detail except Wings of Eagles was not in it , then the hype about Moher would be through the roof . Now he can't hype Wings because it has the sort of profile of a horse that ends up rated about 118 and he can't hype Moher because it has lost to this thing
If I had just trained my 6th Derby winner I wouldn't be too happy either tbh.
Sick as a parrot. Started backing Cliffs before Christmas and down all rates 3 nice bets by my standards. Don't usually cheer then home but was a furlong out 
job done got the 2 classy looking Frankel's beaten
you're a breeder 120,000 to spend Galileo or Frankel?
you're a breeder 120,000 to spend Galileo or Frankel?
You're not going to get much of a go with Galileo for 120K though?
you're a breeder 120,000 to spend Galileo or Frankel?
you'll need to at least double that to get Galileo
you'll need to at least double that to get Galileo
Last time I heard it was 400 or maybe it was 500k....mate's Dad sent a mare to Galileo.
And if they don't like your mare you can keep your half million btw!
And if they don't like your mare you can keep your half million btw!
seamie would have know not to win on tha, he would have know not to beat the future stallion, take the winner out and the form looks solid
Commercially a disaster for Coolmore. Pour Moi was shuttling back and forth to Windsor Park Stud in NZ last year.
If that thing wins another race it is going to be the same or longer, so at best a career as a NH stallion.
No doubt, Wings of Eagles was meant to be a pacemaker and missed the break.
I would say his poor jockey was shocked to be taken into the race and to get his chance to gain the pinnacle of every jockeys career in the UK and Ireland. He quite naturally took it when it was presented.
Careless planning.
If that thing wins another race it is going to be the same or longer, so at best a career as a NH stallion.
No doubt, Wings of Eagles was meant to be a pacemaker and missed the break.
I would say his poor jockey was shocked to be taken into the race and to get his chance to gain the pinnacle of every jockeys career in the UK and Ireland. He quite naturally took it when it was presented.
Careless planning.
surely a fair chance that WoE would have got the pace making duties had been drawn wide instead of The Anvil or Douglas MacArthur...
Two days in a row Coolmore boys have screwed up their race tactics.
In the Oaks they set a very strong pace which would benefit the strong stayer Enable and act to the detriment of their own odds on Favourite.
Today they set a blistering pace again when a slower run race would have been better for Cliffs of Moher.
Now they've produced another Jumps Stallion : well done boys !!
In the Oaks they set a very strong pace which would benefit the strong stayer Enable and act to the detriment of their own odds on Favourite.
Today they set a blistering pace again when a slower run race would have been better for Cliffs of Moher.
Now they've produced another Jumps Stallion : well done boys !!
He looked miserable because, only he knows what he's up to...
He looked shocked to me, the kids looked more pleased !
Coolmore Mafia well not happy !
Coolmore Mafia well not happy !
HAHAHAHAHAHHA
NOT HAPPY
TOOK 1.4 MILLION ENGLISH BUCKS AGAIN
HAHAHAHAHA NOT HAPPY WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT
NOT HAPPY
TOOK 1.4 MILLION ENGLISH BUCKS AGAIN
HAHAHAHAHA NOT HAPPY WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT
Just had a look at the coolmore site. feb 21 2017 " Pour Moi joins coolmore N.H stallions "
why did they enter it if they didn't want it to win? I agree that he wasn't happy, and that it's bad news for the breeding operation, but why take the chance?
Better than a Frankel bred colt or a Godolphin winner but you don't want an exposed colt by a NH sire beating your own unexposed Galileo colt who has the page, narrative and hype to be a proper future stallion.
I see some gombeen above is on about 1.4 m prize money - ffs that wouldn't pay for Coolmore's gardeners, prize money is irrelevant in comparison to the bigger picture.
I see some gombeen above is on about 1.4 m prize money - ffs that wouldn't pay for Coolmore's gardeners, prize money is irrelevant in comparison to the bigger picture.
Breeding is just a gigantic bubble or money laundering operation. He was legitimately pissed the wrong horse had won. Even the clowns on the microphone went on and on and on, how WoE really stole the race and CoM, Eminent and Cracksman were the real winners from the real stallions. What garbage that was.
Ultimately whoever said the problem with horse racing today is that the presentation only focuses on betting and breeding is correct. It´s not presented like a sport. Winning does not matter. In every other sport they´d be pumping up the underdog champion rather than calculating how much money the bookmakers have won and how much endorsement money the favourite had just lost.
Ultimately whoever said the problem with horse racing today is that the presentation only focuses on betting and breeding is correct. It´s not presented like a sport. Winning does not matter. In every other sport they´d be pumping up the underdog champion rather than calculating how much money the bookmakers have won and how much endorsement money the favourite had just lost.
Studious_1 03 Jun 17 16:51
The winning jock didn't even want to win imo.
He's seen his stable mate in front of him is going to win (the one they want to win and was meant to win) and gone easy on his then realised he just had no choice but to go and win it.
That's what the aerial view shows me anyway.
At exactly what point did 'he go easy on him' ?
never have I read so much pish in all my life as on this thread. cheers.
dj876 is right-if Cliffs of Moher had won you have another Galileo success story, and a colt with a pedigree to be a stallion-and who knows? Even replace his dad one day.
How do you market a colt as a stallion who was beaten 4 times before his big win yesterday, with an unfashionable pedigree, by a stallion who is not deemed good enough to be offered to flat breeders anymore?
He will be off to join his sire as a NH stallion and his progeny will be running at Cheltenham and Punchestown, not Royal Ascot or Epsom (possibly the Ascot stakes/Queen Alexandra or the Gold Cup excepted).
How do you market a colt as a stallion who was beaten 4 times before his big win yesterday, with an unfashionable pedigree, by a stallion who is not deemed good enough to be offered to flat breeders anymore?
He will be off to join his sire as a NH stallion and his progeny will be running at Cheltenham and Punchestown, not Royal Ascot or Epsom (possibly the Ascot stakes/Queen Alexandra or the Gold Cup excepted).
It doesn't say much for the level on here that people can't seem to grasp that a Coolmore stallion with the right page,narrative and hype supported by the best broodmares in the world can potentially be worth 20-70 million income to Coolmore. An exposed colt by a failed sire you do not want beating a very marketable stablemate.
A perfectionist like AOB will be very aware that the strong pace set by the Coolmore pace setters contributed to exposing the Frankel's colts stamina limitations but also led to COM being outstayed by the unmarketable winner, if only Heff was on wings of eagles then AOB (and more importantly John Magnier) would have had an absolute beeno.
EIT is correct breeding is a gigantic bubble - valuations are not based on potential income from prize money but based on the continuation of absurd stallion fees. The fundamentals ie principal/income axis scream a bubble but the difference is it's not supported on a sound investment philosophy but the egos of "middle east state funds"
A perfectionist like AOB will be very aware that the strong pace set by the Coolmore pace setters contributed to exposing the Frankel's colts stamina limitations but also led to COM being outstayed by the unmarketable winner, if only Heff was on wings of eagles then AOB (and more importantly John Magnier) would have had an absolute beeno.
EIT is correct breeding is a gigantic bubble - valuations are not based on potential income from prize money but based on the continuation of absurd stallion fees. The fundamentals ie principal/income axis scream a bubble but the difference is it's not supported on a sound investment philosophy but the egos of "middle east state funds"
'The lads' use their racing as a means to find stallions-stallions are where the money is at of course.
The winner yesterday picked up a rather tidy £1.4 M-to put that into perspective, that could be about a days work for Galileo if the rumours about his fee is correct.
If COM had won yesterday, followed up in the Irish Derby and then won a 1m 2F G1 (to prove he has speed too) then he'd be standing at 30K a pop from next season.
If he covers 150 mares in his first season.....then just do the maths....
And remember, he could be covering ,mares for 15 or so years, depending on his success or not.....
The winner yesterday picked up a rather tidy £1.4 M-to put that into perspective, that could be about a days work for Galileo if the rumours about his fee is correct.
If COM had won yesterday, followed up in the Irish Derby and then won a 1m 2F G1 (to prove he has speed too) then he'd be standing at 30K a pop from next season.
If he covers 150 mares in his first season.....then just do the maths....
And remember, he could be covering ,mares for 15 or so years, depending on his success or not.....
This links up very nicely to the recent conversation Is Coolmore's dominance of Horse Racing good for the sport ?...
and Pilsudski’s comment.
"Don't know why the OP's question needs to be asked. This latest ridiculous delay in naming their Derby jockeys serves to emphasise the point. Neither Coolmore or Moore give a s***about the betting public"
.
and Pilsudski’s comment.
"Don't know why the OP's question needs to be asked. This latest ridiculous delay in naming their Derby jockeys serves to emphasise the point. Neither Coolmore or Moore give a s***about the betting public"
.
Fully agree with The Bairn here, some load of rubbish written on this thread.
First and foremost the best horse won and the next three home were the fav and joint 2nd favs. We dont know yet how the form will work out but the winner could yet
be above average, even for derby winners.
Cliffs Of Moher may be by Gallileo but his pedigree on the dam's side is nothing exceptional. Comparing him to El Gran Senor is madness. As pedigrees go, he's light years behind such as Sea The Stars and Australia and would never make a super sexy stallion.He started his racing career down the field in a Cork maiden before winning a maiden and an average listed race prior to the Derby.He was an easy to back 5-1 shot and I don't see how anyone can describe yesterday's result as a commercial disaster for Coolmore - its not like he was El Gran Senor all over again.
As for the theory that Seamie Heff wouldn't have gone past well I've seen it all now... Its the Derby ffs, the most important race on the planet.What do you think he would have done? Sat up in the saddle and took a look across and decided in that split second that COM had Cracksman covered by a neck and maybe slotted in between the 2 of them?
As 3 yo colts, now is the time to see how good they are and how they compare on the racetrack.For now they are racehorses. Should any of us give a sh1t at this stage as to what they are valued at in a future career?
First and foremost the best horse won and the next three home were the fav and joint 2nd favs. We dont know yet how the form will work out but the winner could yet
be above average, even for derby winners.
Cliffs Of Moher may be by Gallileo but his pedigree on the dam's side is nothing exceptional. Comparing him to El Gran Senor is madness. As pedigrees go, he's light years behind such as Sea The Stars and Australia and would never make a super sexy stallion.He started his racing career down the field in a Cork maiden before winning a maiden and an average listed race prior to the Derby.He was an easy to back 5-1 shot and I don't see how anyone can describe yesterday's result as a commercial disaster for Coolmore - its not like he was El Gran Senor all over again.
As for the theory that Seamie Heff wouldn't have gone past well I've seen it all now... Its the Derby ffs, the most important race on the planet.What do you think he would have done? Sat up in the saddle and took a look across and decided in that split second that COM had Cracksman covered by a neck and maybe slotted in between the 2 of them?
As 3 yo colts, now is the time to see how good they are and how they compare on the racetrack.For now they are racehorses. Should any of us give a sh1t at this stage as to what they are valued at in a future career?
Coolmore is a commercial operation ffs. They certainly give a s***.
we as punters are followers of the sport shouldn't care about commercial values, we want great racing, challenging buckles and duels but in the real world for commercial reasons champions have dodged each other, been retired early because of freak injuries to maintain a potential stallion value rather than decrease it through a defeat. We just want to watch excitement, the breeders on the other hand care very much about Group race results especially The Derby. The chat has been about Coolmore dismay at the wrong winner in commercial terms but what if Frankel had got it won via Cracksman? Such a novice stallion but already overhyped imo , what price would his matings have gone up to if Cracksman had not missed the Dante and got just a bit more experience? So they have no superstar blood to overhype and sell as a supreme middle distance champion but they still have Churchill, Coolmore aren't going to go hungry.
So what.COM will have lots of chances to prove himself. He wasn't quite good enough to win the derby. If Coolmore were desperate for him to win then they wouldn't have run six in it.
Yesterday was a good days work for Coolmore. Their stated aim is to win derbys. I'm happy that the best horse won and my heart doesn't bleed because a Pour Moi beat a Galileo.
Yesterday was a good days work for Coolmore. Their stated aim is to win derbys. I'm happy that the best horse won and my heart doesn't bleed because a Pour Moi beat a Galileo.
You heart may not be bleeding FTV, but there will be a pang or two of regret at Coolmore, since they just binned the stallion by casting him out to the NH wilderness.....
Can Pour Moi really now be called a failure having sired a Derby winner with his second crop? He'll make plenty of dosh as a NH sire anyway and I wouldnt be surprised if Cliffs Of Moher has a future as a sire of jumpers
ffs they've still got galileo and it's not as if their other derby winners have been huge successes, indeed high chapparal (so you think and toronado highest rated flat horses both with very poor stud records) seems to have more jumps winners these days.
Pour Moi certainly isn't a failure moreover not terribly fashionable. I stuck the following up over on the bloodstock and breeding forum last November in a thread entitled 'Binned young stallions':
"You can add Pour Moi, Lilbourne Lad, Roderic O'Connor to that list. They were 4th, 7th & 8th respectively on the list of Leading European 2nd season sires by winners"
He just wasn't what the market wanted despite decent winner to runner ratio.
"You can add Pour Moi, Lilbourne Lad, Roderic O'Connor to that list. They were 4th, 7th & 8th respectively on the list of Leading European 2nd season sires by winners"
He just wasn't what the market wanted despite decent winner to runner ratio.
My first ever bet on the derby was on Pour Moi! Pleased to see him sire a winner :)
The race was a similar result to Night of Thunders (40/1) defeat of Kingman and Australia
The fact is Montjeu's sons hadn't produced much ( except the odd Champion Hurdler ) until this one came along. Pour Moi always looked an odd one for Coolmore to stand as a flat sire tbh,but it does now look a bit unfortunate they didn't keep him on their flat roster for another year.
I am sure ph doesn't really think Frankel is Coolmore's. I really must have misread his post.
I am sure ph doesn't really think Frankel is Coolmore's. I really must have misread his post.
At least AOB does not issue team orders but instead say to his jockeys to do their best and win if they can. I believe Beggy is entitled to 10% of the 1st prize money of £921.5k = £92.15k, lucky for some!
Correct SS I probably didn't express clearly enough that he was Juddmontes but I thought I mentioned it. My point was all the what could have been for Coolmore and Moher surely would have paled into insignificance if Frankel had sired the winner. Frankel would have been marketed and sold as the new Galileo in only his third year planting his seed.
As yet Frankel isn't a Danehill, Oasis Dream, Dansili or even Warning. I don't want to mention Rainbow Quest although like Pour Moi he sired a Derby winner.
Cliffs Of Moher may be by Gallileo but his pedigree on the dam's side is nothing exceptional. Comparing him to El Gran Senor is madness.
My point being the lost revenue from potential stud fees re: The Derby !
At the time, VOB was not a happy bunny !
My point being the lost revenue from potential stud fees re: The Derby !
At the time, VOB was not a happy bunny !
Not seen a horse going that well in The Derby at the 2 pole ever I would think?
Nijinsky maybe?
Nijinsky maybe?
Big Black Cat 05 Jun 17 09:40
Not seen a horse going that well in The Derby at the 2 pole ever I would think?
Nijinsky maybe?
You might need to look at Sea Bird in 1965. And none of us can use the word "ever" as we are not old enough.
Not seen a horse going that well in The Derby at the 2 pole ever I would think?
Nijinsky maybe?
You might need to look at Sea Bird in 1965. And none of us can use the word "ever" as we are not old enough.
Racing career[edit]
Secreto won his only race as a two-year-old, taking a small maiden race at Phoenix Park. In the spring of 1984, he won the Tetrarch Stakes and then started favourite for the Irish 2000 Guineas over one mile. He finished third, beaten a neck and half a length by Sadler's Wells and Procida, giving the impression that he would be suited by a longer distance.[3]
In the 1984 Epsom Derby, which, was the most valuable race ever run in Europe with a first prize of £227,680, Secreto started at odds of 14/1 in a field of seventeen runners.[4] The odds-on favourite was the unbeaten El Gran Senor,trained by David O'Briens's father Vincent. El Gran Senor had been the leading European two-year-old of 1983 and had won the 2000 Guineas. The running was made by future Melbourne Cup winner At Talaq, who turned into the straight five lengths clear. Two furlongs from the finish, El Gran Senor moved up to dispute the lead with Secreto moving up to challenge on the outside. Pat Eddery appeared to be going very easily on the favourite, whereas Christy Roche was hard at work on Secreto. The two Irish-trained colts began to pull away from the opposition and in what Timeform described as a "thrilling" finish, Secreto led in the last strides to win by a short head.[2] The result was only confirmed after the stewards rejected an objection lodged by Eddery, who claimed that Secreto had leaned in and interfered with his horse in the closing stages.[5] Secreto's win made David O'Brien, at 27, the youngest man to train a Derby winner.[6] Christy Roche praised the colt's attitude, saying that Secreto had "won on sheer courage."[7]
After his win in the Derby, a half share in Secreto was sold to Calumet Farm for a reported $20,000,000.[2] The colt never ran again, being withdrawn successively from the Irish Derby, the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes, and the Benson & Hedges Gold Cup.[8]
Secreto won his only race as a two-year-old, taking a small maiden race at Phoenix Park. In the spring of 1984, he won the Tetrarch Stakes and then started favourite for the Irish 2000 Guineas over one mile. He finished third, beaten a neck and half a length by Sadler's Wells and Procida, giving the impression that he would be suited by a longer distance.[3]
In the 1984 Epsom Derby, which, was the most valuable race ever run in Europe with a first prize of £227,680, Secreto started at odds of 14/1 in a field of seventeen runners.[4] The odds-on favourite was the unbeaten El Gran Senor,trained by David O'Briens's father Vincent. El Gran Senor had been the leading European two-year-old of 1983 and had won the 2000 Guineas. The running was made by future Melbourne Cup winner At Talaq, who turned into the straight five lengths clear. Two furlongs from the finish, El Gran Senor moved up to dispute the lead with Secreto moving up to challenge on the outside. Pat Eddery appeared to be going very easily on the favourite, whereas Christy Roche was hard at work on Secreto. The two Irish-trained colts began to pull away from the opposition and in what Timeform described as a "thrilling" finish, Secreto led in the last strides to win by a short head.[2] The result was only confirmed after the stewards rejected an objection lodged by Eddery, who claimed that Secreto had leaned in and interfered with his horse in the closing stages.[5] Secreto's win made David O'Brien, at 27, the youngest man to train a Derby winner.[6] Christy Roche praised the colt's attitude, saying that Secreto had "won on sheer courage."[7]
After his win in the Derby, a half share in Secreto was sold to Calumet Farm for a reported $20,000,000.[2] The colt never ran again, being withdrawn successively from the Irish Derby, the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes, and the Benson & Hedges Gold Cup.[8]
Halcyon, the point is the same. El Gran Senor was the champion 2 yo of his year. He bolted up in one of the best 2000 guineas ever run. He was the golden boy of his generation and there was a reputed sale agreed of 100 million dollars for him provided he won the Derby, for which he went off odds on.That was some money back in 1984.
Cliffs Of Moher had the listed Dee Stakes in Chester as his one and only black type success before the Derby, for which he was a 5-1 chance. He wasn't considered a star even in his own yard.Even if he had won he would have been valued at a fraction of EGS so comparisons between the two are way off.
Cliffs Of Moher had the listed Dee Stakes in Chester as his one and only black type success before the Derby, for which he was a 5-1 chance. He wasn't considered a star even in his own yard.Even if he had won he would have been valued at a fraction of EGS so comparisons between the two are way off.
Fair comment that C of M hadn't shown himself as good as El Gran Senor but he is probably marketable as a flat stallion and certainly would have been if he had won. He is by Galileo and although the dam wasn't a great racehorse she was very well connected to Henrythenavigator for one. Wings of Eagles will be difficult for even Coolmore to market ( unless he wins the Champion Stakes or the Breeders Cup Classic ) as he is by a stallion they themselves have already relegated to their NH roster.
My point is the same! The Derby, you would agree is all about the winner going to stud and making money for his owner's via stud fees ! What happened in '84 & '17 was not supposed to happen !
And, surely you understand the importance of the Galileo blood line ?...
But, in essence that's sport, and why we love it so much !
When a top trainer can't choose the best one of six from his own stable, it shows how open these races for unexposed horses are.
I expect he told his daughter not to ride the horse in the race.
Imagine have to go home and say sorry.
Imagine have to go home and say sorry.
Just watched Sea Bird's Derby-very impressive as IIRC Meadow Court was a pretty good horse himself....
Still not sure he was cantering like El Gran Senor at the 2 pole though-will watch again...
Still not sure he was cantering like El Gran Senor at the 2 pole though-will watch again...
I backed I Say who was leading around the 2 pole and got very excited at my 33/1 shot until I noticed Sea Bird behind. Of course Sea Bird went on to slaughter a top class field in the Arc and in my view was the best horse I've ever seen.
Frankel rated superior to Sea Bird by Timeform.. Frankel rated 9lb superior to Nijinsky.
. Frankel rated 9lb superior to Nijinsky.
Unfortunately Frankel never ran in the races Sea Bird and Nijinsky ran in.
Connections never wanted to be out of their comfort zone.
Connections never wanted to be out of their comfort zone.
Very true sparrow !
Know a lot of good judges thought Sea Bird the greatest !
Dancing Brave did beat either 7/9 G 1 winners in his Arc !
Know a lot of good judges thought Sea Bird the greatest !
Dancing Brave did beat either 7/9 G 1 winners in his Arc !
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