any one remember

Hill House and Rosyth both won Price fortunes and got him in a lot of trouble.


https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Controversial+winners+came+at+a+price%3B+In+the+first+of+a+week-long...-a0218433501

I see that your horse Rugantino went on to become a bit of a jumps sire, best of which was called Grey Tornado trained by Popham in the mid 80s won 5 times for him.
Can't find anything else about yours sorry.

We need onlooker or ged for information on this horse. I think he was just a handicapper as I recall.

As has been posted earlier, Rugantino (GB) was foaled in 1970, and went on to sire several half decent jumpers. I can find no record of it running on the flat in the UK.  As was also posted earlier, Onlooker and/or ged will perhaps have better info.

Re the original bet, the OP staked anything between £4500 and £10,000 on this bet in today's value. Which actual today value depends on what measure you choose to use of the various ones available. Some bet.

Rugantino was foaled in 1962, by Whistler. He was beaten in a nursery at Wolverhampton on Monday August 17, 1964, but came into that race with form figs of 001, so that '1' was perhaps the race the OP is fondly remembering. He was trained by John Sutcliffe. Although when he ran his 2nd race, on Saturday April 4th, 1964, in the first race at Windor (a maiden, on BBC), he was trained by A. Smyth. Another horse having his 2nd run in that 2yo maiden was Specify, who would win the Grand National 7 years later (almost to the day, April 3rd, 1971).

But that'd be 8/9 years before OP bought his house with the proceeds.

Thanks ged. I thought he was a 60s horse but the OP seemed pretty sure it was the 70s. 1964 was the year I started betting on a regular basis and I certainly recall the horse if not his form.

He was definitely of that year. He became a useful 6f handicapper for John Sutcliffe, and won several races, at ages 2,3 and 4, including a 3yo hcap at 11/4 fav ridden by Ron Hutchinson at the Epsom Derby meeting the day after Sea-Bird had waltzed home in the big race.

Well Rugantino's first win looks to have been in a seller at Lingfield on Friday, July 10, 1964. He came into the race with form figs of 000300. He was still trained by A M Smyth (at East Hendred) - for Jack Hylton (band leader?), and ridden that day by Jimmy Lindley. (His 3rd had come at Bath, ridden by Geoff Lewis). He was bought, so presumably then switched to John Sutcliffe.

So 'the gamble' must have come after Aug 17, not before. (For the above seller, he was paper-forecast to be 4/1 3rd fav, and with Lindley riding and 11 runners, unlikely to have been bet from 100/6).

Rugantino won the first race of the 1966/7 NH Season at Newton Abbot, trained by Neville Dent and ridden by Paul Ritchens, seem to remember a race named after him at Newton Abbot in the past

Thurs Sep 24, 1964. 3.00 Windsor. Englefield Green Nursery. 6f. 18 runners.

1. Rugantino. 6/1 fav. D. Cullen(7-2).
2. Indian Echo. 15/2. F. Smith(7-13)
3. Palmroy. 100/8. D. Keith(8-3).

2 L; 1/2 L.

That's the one Ged, well sorted.

1964 - Des Cullen - 7st 2lbs.  Just a couple of pounds of lead then

F Smith should be E Smith. Indian Echo was trained by Bernard van Cutsem, and Palmroy by Walter Nightingall. The forecast 5/1 fav was Welsh Star, a filly trained by George Beeby, who had won her last 3 races. Rugantino was in the paper at 10/1.

Excellent work as ever ged, I am sure the OP will be very grateful for your efforts, and, apologies for my error of 1970 as the foaled date, should know better by now, than to trust anything on the RP site...!

RUGANTINO

if you go on jockeypedia and email George he will email you back the newspaper cards of that day [send him the date] for you to reminisce

Slight correction - it was Wed, Sept 23.

(Sept 24 had the results).

Rugantino   the rug

I was working for a Jersey bookie  when the Rug was trained by Monty Smyth, the local bookie had a horse called FOG with him   from memory Dennis Letherby was apprentice of the time then ..

Wasn't Letherby apprenticed to Willie Stephenson?

It would seem that his original owner was impresario and band leader Jack Hylton, as he owned a number of racehorses . He died in Jan 1965, so Rugantino must have been one of his last.

Here's a picture of Jack, looking at one of his, in 1949.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/theatre-impresario-jack-hylton-examining-one-of-his-news-photo/3400970#12th-march-1949-theatre-impresario-jack-hylton-examining-one-of-his-picture-id3400970

i have been looking for info on rugantino for many moons and this forum has been supurb.
answer for broadsword,wages was around 45 sovs a week, a semi det chalet in bexley kent needing work
was around 4k to 5k .this might throw some light on the info it was a 2 year old hcp nursery 72 or 73
i was friends and work mate with jeremy noseda father who had a few betting shops in south london
around  the time tabor was a regular greyhound man before his astronmical rise to the position he now enjoys these groups were go getters s--- or bust but shrewd young men.being in that enviroment and in the industry this kind of info materialises you have to judgethe strength of the info out of 10 this came in at 9 i sold my car holiday wages and little savings i had was used as the stake.let me say this
i may now be in the evening of my life and memory slips now and again,but parts of this day are so clear a very warm sunny day,the white fiver was in use my bet was with 5 bookmakers all in the front line in tatts.i was so quick running along the line you had to or else the price would have shortened
when picking up the draw my hands were still shaking i went into the toilets to stuff the wedge down my trousers came back out to see a horse dark court get beat ridden by gorden richards. did not wait for the meeting to close started to make my way home. the rest is history .
stewerts rise.you have it totaly wrong

RUGANTINO - Dark Court ran in the 3.30, the following race, as you say. Gordon Richards trained it. Scobie Breasley rode it. 1964.




(Monty Smyth - Alfred Mornington Smyth. 1903 - 1981. Uncle of Gordon Smyth. Trained for William Hill for a while at Whitsbury)

ged---- where did you get that info the race result of rugantino
you see the old sporting life of the next day showed the wagers placed and would show those large amounts.to prove that is the correct day and result the race after was a hot pot turned over called dark court ridden by g richards
please reply ged

Dark Court was beaten by Alsatia, ridden by Joe Mercer, trained by Derrick Candy (Henry's father).

I'm inclined to believe geds dates, foaled in 62, so couldn't have won a 2 year old nursery in 72. The years fly by Rug'.

ged your knowledge and info on horse racing is second to none .you have made an old man very happy.
and my offspring are now believing in that event of rugantino the two year old.

no white fivers around in 72 either

Des Cullen rode the winner of the 5th race as well at 100/6, so you could have had the Tote Double up on him. (3rd and 5th race) - paid £116 1s.

RUGANTINO - it's not really knowledge - I'm just digging around on the internet, and using bits of knowledge.

redrob you are right with your inclination go with ged
white fivers were around when rugantino secured the race in question because around this time i believe
a layer was caught with forged white fivers  and apparantly had educated his children on the proceeds at boarding school .

ged is there any way i can get an old copy of the sporting life of 25th sept 1964

Rugantino actually became quite a useful hurdler on fast ground. He came 3rd in a division of the Portman hurdle at Wincanton, which used to attract Champion Hurdle horses. Kirriemuir won the other division in the year he ran in his. David Elsworth had a mount in both divisions.

Another John Sutcliffe flat horse became a useful fast ground hurdler for another trainer in Mugatpura. He ran in the St James Palace as a 3yo for Sutcliffe, and ran up a sequence over hurdles on fast ground for Fulke Walwyn, including the first running of the Fighting Fifth.

RUGANTINO - you'd want September 23rd - that was the day of the race. I doubt you could get a copy. But, as Delta said above, you could email a man called George Walker who could send you an image of the Times newspaper of the racing page for that date. That might be the best you could do.

You can contact George via the Jockeypedia website...

https://sites.google.com/site/jockeypedia/

(or just google Jockeypedia yourself - you'll find it easily)

George created that, and put all sorts of stuff on it, particularly about old time jockeys.

ged i have run out of superlatives for your info
my family are as much glued to the info coming in as i

sorry, his name is George Wheeler, not George Walker (that was Billy's brother)

Here's his contact address...

jockeypedia2016@gmail.com

RUGANTINO - where do you live now? My uncle used to work in the Schweppes factory in Sidcup - can't have been all that far from that old semi you lived in. It was him and my aunt that got me interested in racing in the early 60s.

ged i live in birchington minnis bay kent overlooking the briney [sea]
son lives in cheltenham no surprise there
jeremy noseda {trainer newmarket} father . my work pal had one of his betting shops in halfway st sidcup
the other chiselhurst near bromley and one other in walworth road south london.
the house i bought with the proceeds was in bedonwell road bexleyheath kent those were the days.

Oh right. I was brought up in St Mary Cray. We used to go down to Margate and Ramsgate of a Sunday sometimes, if the car made it. I used to go to Windsor sometimes with my dad around the late 60s, but never landed a touch like yours!

Jack Hylton's eldest daughter, Jackie, has 3 racing claims to fame...

1. In 1944, her dad bought her a racehorse, Smoky, so making her the youngest registered racehorse owner in the country
2. Her first husband was Liam Ward, 5 times Irish champion jockey, but perhaps best known in Britain as the jockey who was on Sir Ivor when Ribero and Piggott beat him in the Irish Derby
3. Her 2nd husband is Frank Ramos, and they own the Ashleigh stud in Kentucky, and so bred Toast Of New York, who nearly won the Breeders Cup Classic for Jamie Osborne and Michael Buckley

She's still going in her mid-80s, I think.

info never tops amazing me.
had a delay since i was coming from behind today layed a few winners just laid floramoss 410 kelso out of trouble now little profit might lay zeehahin in  the 4.30 at 3.75 see how the market goes.
by the way jockeypedia keep getting a not delivered notice  george wheeler on twitter last post was 2011 is he still around .

laid zeehan good info p.u  nice profit on the day  becaue it was a grey nade ne wonder

Re. White Fivers.

The 1793 design, latterly known as the "White Fiver" (black printing on white paper), remained in circulation essentially unchanged until 21 February 1957 when the multicoloured (although predominantly dark blue) "Series B" note, depicting the helmeted Britannia, was introduced. The old "White Fiver" was withdrawn on 13 March 1961.

RUGANTINO - he's definitely around. He posted on this forum just a few days ago to say he'd put up some info about the Lincolns in the 50s and 60s. That post was just last week. He doesn't post on this forum much, but he spends a lot of time on his site, so I'm surprised your emails are getting bounced.

I don't remember ever seeing a white fiver. Yet I remember 10 bob notes, and even 5 bob notes - that would have been very early 60s, even late 50s - but I definitely never saw a white fiver.

making me feel young, I don't remember 5 bob note, was only 5 in 61 and the most I ever had was a florin, and some things never change

i've never even heard of a 5 bob note !

I was 8 then. I used to get 5 bob notes as christmas presents from my nan and aunts. They were brown, same colour as a ten bob. I think maybe you had to change them at a post office, not sure, grown-ups took care of that bit.

A very interesting read, and a great touch had by Rugantino.

Has a year been settled on?

my dad made a book at catford dog track in 1954 and on returning home the books were balanced most were
white fivers for good ness sake believe me i must be the oldest on here  not quite senile yet

s kenbo yes the year would be 1964

wealthy family then ged, all I ever got was a tanner, orange and apple at bottom of stocking, and a few other bits on to fill it up.

Thanks, Rug.

so were did I get my florin you ask, well in 1963, we were having an indoor bathroom built (prior to thisd it was a tin bath in front of fire) anyway one of the builders was a big Sonny Liston fan, and I have my first ever bet, my tanner said Cassius Clay would beat him, hence I copped a florin.

Well I didn't think we were, but compared with you, maybe we were! My dad was a docker, earning £20 a week - when he wasn't on strike. My nan was doing tanner each-way cross doubles and trebles. Maybe she was a lucky punter!

My old man was a postie in the morning and window cleaner in afternoon. My first job in a factory in 72 paid me £7.28p a week. Actually felt rich. Then in 75 started in a bookies on 28 quid.

I remember white fivers very well in the 1950s but not a 5 shilling note. I suggest it was a postal order you received as a present ged.

oh dear i was born and bred in peckham south london not milk and honey fed . but educated on what has to be done to have a comfy life . no one gets anything by being an angel.
the motto in our humble abode in peckham was no one should work for a limited group he should either work for himself or mankind.in this world you get leaders and followers so please no remarks regarding my status as a child

I've looked up british bank notes since records began and no five bob note...as sparrow says you're probably thinking of a postal order

Hmm. I've found a Tanzanian one. I think I may have been conned!

http://www.banknotes.com/tz1.htm

ged i am now signing off because the conflab has gone off on a tangent
however i have at last sent email to george weaver on full info on rugantino at windsor i have my fingers crossed.
lesson learnt never discard info that you may want to refer to in later years
by for now

Hi boys - been away from the Forum all day.

RUGANTINO

Whistler - Barrette (Dante)

Ran 11 times as a two-year-old in 1964

Won twice - First win, on 7th outing, at Lingfield July 10th

Birch Mead Selling Plate - 6f - Firm
ridden by Jimmy Lindley - won easily by 4 lengths - at 2/1 second fav

Owned by Jack Hylton - trained by A Smyth (East Henfred) - SOLD at Auction 1,150 gns to Mrs N Well

Ran a further twice before the said Windsor Nursery Win -

8th in a Nursery at Wolverhampton, then 2nd, beaten 6 lengths, in the Hurstbourne Nursery at Salisbury, ridden by Tommy Carter - when 5/1 second fav - backed from 10/1

Wednesday September 23 Windsor

3:00  Englefield Green Nursery Handicap - 6f - Good

1.  RUGANTINO - 7-2 - Des Cullen
       (improved 2f out, led 150 yds out, comfortably)
2.  Indian Echo - 7-13 - Eph Smith
    (led till headed by winner)
3.  Palmroy - 8-3 - Duncan Keith
4.  Melos - 7-0 - R Abernethy*7

18 ran

Dist:  2 lengths, half, 4 lengths

Owner:  Maurice Cohen
Trained:  J Sutcliffe, jun (Ashtead, Surrey)

SP:  6/1 FAV, from 10/1 - 15/2, 100/8, 100/7

Tote:  £2/12s2d - 16s, 11s, 18s4d

Time:  1m13 3/5s (slow by 1 1/5s)

Breeder:  Messers E and Tim Holland-Martin

onlooker i have to go now but like ged you are magic
it canbe seen from you notes sp 6s backed down from 100/7 6s
i came in at 100/8

where on earth did this info come from
i have being searching on and off for ages
thanks a whole let sir

Rugantino, if it helps at all I can provide a list of runners and riders for that 3.00 race at Windsor on 23/9/64, and their previous 3 finishing positions.

I typed it out manually - having copied from the OFFICIAL FORM BOOK for 1964

Can also provide SPs for ALL runners if that hasn't been done already.

alun2005
how and what is the best way for you to provide that info at your disposal.however meagre it appears it will be framed that is how important that day is to me it shaped and altered my life for the better thereafter

RUGANTINO - I have hundreds of old copies of The Sporting Life - but, not from 1964.

If you go to the British Library ....

Address: 96 Euston Rd, Kings Cross, London NW1 2DB

Hours: Open today · 9:30am–8pm
       
Phone: 0330 333 1144

They will/should  have a copy of both the September 23rd and September 24th 1964 -
Sporting Lifes
- that they will probably let you view, albeit probably under supervision - and they MAY just Photo copy the relevant parts from the paper for you - although, obviously, that is far from a given.

Worth a phone call, maybe.

onlooker where am i able to obtain the form book for 1964
bearing in mind my age i ask that you excuse me for saying this my memory recalls rugantino form placings in  the sporting life that day showed a string of seconds.but if you are sure that is not the case i will cede to your spot on details as written

Rugantino,

The last time I provided data this way for someone was to email them the page (or part page) in digital format, and they printed it via their home printer.

Don't swap email addresses yet (we can do that through BF's Personal Messaging system if necessary), let me first make sure I can get the data into shape.

More later.

alun ok

OK, quicker than I'd anticipated.

On my computer I have 2 PDF files saved.  One relates to the Sports/racing page for 23 Sep '64 (showing Windsor and other cards) and  the other relates to the Racing Results page for 23 Sep 64 (including Windsor).

I did a test whereby I emailed one PDF from one of my email addresses to another, and it works fine. I even virus-checked it and it was good. The resultant text is quite small to say the least, but modern computers do at least allow you to enlarge stuff before printing it.

I can send you my email address through the BF Personal Messaging system if you like and you can reply to it saying where you want the email files sent.

That's about the best I can offer I think, short of typing it all out.

RUGANTINO - I am ALWAYS, "sure," 

Sometimes they are available on ebay - or Amazon - or specialist booksellers site.

Rather fortuitously there IS on for sale on ebay, right now  - for just a Fiver.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Form-Book-Sporting-Chronical-Flat-Racing-Annual-Part-1964-Issue-1965-Horse-/272604711308?ha****m3f7881c98c:g:QI8AAOSwDKtY1qp~

Rugantino - just messaged you though the BF Personal Messaging system.

A great story Rugantino, in fact the whole thread is a good read thanks to our resident 'gurus. It makes a change from some of the ego massaging dross we see on a daily basis. Thanks guys

Very good Ged, Alun2005 and Onlooker Real life at last.....

alun2005
please excuse my ignorance but what is bf per mess system

If you look towards the top of this page you will see the words 'NEW MESSAGES' , hopefully showing (1) New Message for you to read. It's a means for BF customers to contact each other privately.

He might need to be on the "New Community" part of the forum. I'm on "Classic" and it does not show the messages.

Rugantino

It is - Betfair PM = Personal Message - that ONLY YOU can read, and not the whole Forum.

Firstly - You need to be viewing the Forum in 'New Community' view - and not 'Community Classic.

Towards the top-right - but BELOW you 'Total Available' Balance - you will see a line containing ... 'New Messages'  and 'Contacts'.

In the (brackets) following 'New Messages' you should now be seeing a number 1 = (1)

Click on 'New Messages' and then click on the Message from alun, to open it.

Rugantino - I can see you've got my Personal Message and you tried replying to it, but maybe you didn't include any text?

Have another go.

Have another go.

OK, we're in business. Emails shortly.

Both emails sent. Let us know how you get on.

Excellent work and good read.

  A great story Rugantino, in fact the whole thread is a good read thanks to our resident 'gurus. It makes a change from some of the ego massaging dross we see on a daily basis. Thanks guys Grin

  well said ANDREW, pleasant surprise from a lot of the input on here.

It's all gone a bit quiet Chez Rugantino…… have you received or even found the emails? 

The drama's getting a bit much.

... if hes anything like me with computers please be PATIENT. 

I've had the word from the Great Man……… GOOD NEWS !!

This 1964 gamble on Rugantino is surely destined to go down in history and collective alongside DESTRIERO/THE ILLIAD, REVEILLEZ/KADOUN and PASTERNAK.

have received both emails card 23rd results 24th instant 1964.magnified both and downloaded daughter will print on the weekend easy to read after magnification.will frame and hang .i cannot thank you and all on this forum enough . a little more faith is restored in the public at large.be lucky all and enjoy your racing

Well done guys;great you've been able to sort him out. I too am astounded at how some obscure questions get answered.

Excellent thread, well done to all.

This must be the oldest aftertimers thread ever!

Claiming a winner 53 years later

Must have taken a fair set of cahooners to put that bet on though.

a most enjoyable read, well done to rugantino and all those who helped him out.

"Rugantino" was an Italian musical comedy that played in New York on Broadway in 1964. Jack Hylton was one of the producers, so he presumably named his horse to get a bit of extra publicity for the production.

Didn't have a chance to do it any good though, as the show was a flop, and was pulled after 28 performances early in 1964.

Here's an image of page 2 of the playbill for its opening night, Feb 6, 1964, with Jack's name on it...


https://picclick.ca/Rugantino-FLOP-Playbill-1964-OPENING-NIGHT-Nino-371900222236.html#&gid=1&pid=2

Musical Director for the show was Antonio Coppola, brother of Carmine, who was father of Francis Ford Coppola. Anton conducted the film score of the Godfather III, and appeared in it. He's still alive, age 100.

"The story, which takes place in the Rome of 1830, concerns the rascally title character, a skirt chaser and cocky con artist who bets he can bed the beautiful Rosetta (Serena Rossi), wife of the villainous Papal spy Gnecco (Simone Mori). Along the way, he has a flirtation with a married princess (Valentina Spalletta), and dupes Mastro Titta (Vincenzo Faillal), an unhappy innkeeper (who doubles as an executioner) by matching up the old man with his former mistress Eusebia (Paola Tiziana Cruciani). Rosetta eventually falls genuinely in love with Rugantino, but he comes to be wrongfully accused of the murder of her husband. At the end, he goes to his beheading, transformed from his rakish ways by the Rosetta’s love."

^that's from a 2014 New York revival. Apparently it's continued to be a hit in Italy.