Many Clouds collapsed

I remembered I had read an article about horses and sudden death due to cardiovascular problems:
http://www.paulickreport.com/horse-care-category/vet-topics/ask-vet-equine-heart-attacks-happen/

Given how rare sudden death is and how difficult to predict, it is not surprising they kept racing Many Clouds.  Sprinter Sacre wasn't retired until he sustained a leg injury.  They brought him back from a arrhythmia issue successfully.

Ultimately race horses are a mass produced commodity for entertainment.  We may feel sadness for the passing of a great horse like Many Clouds but racehorses die every week, most we don't notice.

why would they say they tested him if they hadnt ?

A great horse and a sad loss to the sport and particularly to his connections.
Quick queston to those who say he should have been retired. If you had a horse capable of showing high class form that you thought might still be capable of winning another Grand National and he had been passed fit by the vet to stay in training would you retire him?

They need to keep figures for heart attacks because it's a side effect of performance enhancing drugs (I'm not saying that was an issue here in any way or form).

oh jeez it gets worse

excellent post BB

I wouldn't even have a runner in the National. If I had one that won a big race he'd be wrapped in cotton wool from then on.

In most cases sudden death is impossible to predict i agree and is unavoidable , but when a horse shows distress after a race on more than one occasion then you could say it's avoidable.

So you would have wrapped up Many Clouds after the Hennessey and never won the 2015 National?

aye makes sense, horses bred to race and lets not run them because they won a big race.

Then if he wasn't tested dealer then he didn't get treated the same as a human athlete might have done.

It's sad, but in another way it's good, ending his life in glory, rather than growing old and infirm in a field, or being retired and sent dressaging

if you seriously think that horse didnt receive 100% the best treatment available then honestly i think you are deluded

Given that he had past problems you could sort of understand aftertiming that he could had been retired, but when you see a horse horse try so hard minutes before his death, its hard to say he has issues as he is putting all in, maybe putting too much in. Probably what made him so good, he wanted it no matter what.

OK, the Fear. Let's forget the National. So if you owned Many Clouds and he clearly retained all his ability and he had been passed fit to race and the trainer was also happy with the horse would you retire him?

Horse racing is risky at the best of times , but when you know your champ has an undiagnosed condition to me that's a risk to many.

what undiagnosed condition?

Uh breathing appratus at the end of races might be a clue

So sad to see what happened today but even sadder to see some of the vitriol posted afterwards  re the rights or wrongs of keep running him.

We as punters think we have the divine right to form an opinion - rightly or wrongly- about horses/jockeys/trainers/pundits on a daily basis when the truth is we know but a fraction of what the full picture is .

Do you honestly think that those closest to the horse would willingly risk the horses wellbeing if they were in any doubt as to it after all the pleasure it had given them and secondly us .

A cruel way for this warrior to go but sadly these things do happen - he will be fondly remembered thats for sure and thats the way he should be remembered

again i will go back to humans, the brownlee brothers after triathlons, oxygen, hospital, have they undiagnosed conditions, should they both retire?

correct Paul

They been through cardiac tests and can call their own shots

easy with hindsight but I just wonder if the breathing op in enabling him to gallop faster for longer indirectly put more strain on his heart?.

I'm ignorant on these issues though - need to educate myself.

I do know that not for one moment before the race did I think 'Many Clouds should not be running'.

I suppose the difference is that they have the choice, the dealer. Like for example James Taylor choosing to retire from cricket because of a heart condition. But I still don't think the people who have lost their horse derserve to be castigated for making the completely rational decision to race their horse.

Mate of mine was there today and told me it was heartbreaking when the horse didn't make to the winners enclosure and the atmosphere was terrible.

Also one other, thing Many Clouds did not wobble after this race he was walking around just fine without a care for a full minute, then went down quickly.  Maybe the previous wobbles was connected to today's event maybe not. I don't think that is conclusively known yet, it could be it was an unrelated issue.

yes they may well have, all based on specialist advice. surely the same specialist advice that the trainer and connections had.

The Brownlee comparisons. The Dealer was watching Racing UK today, and not ITV4.

But I'm sure OS would have stated that if that were the case . He might have got specialist advice but if he mentioned wind op then he would of mentioned that i would have thought .

Tom you are an owner now so you become attached to em mate just like ya pet dog/cat/canary whatever and you just wouldnt intentionally set out to endanger em would ya .
As said elsewhere he was one of my all time favs and even though i never bet him today i was over the moon when he battled back to get up on the line  only then left deflated as a tearful Lydia -ok you never saw her but it was obvious in the tone of her voice- then relayed the tragic unfolding of what came next

Barton if I owned Many Clouds I doubt he would have raced on after two wobbles. First time i might have written it off as one of those things.

sadly i was working

BW i get the impression if the post mortem said he died of a heart attack and natural causes you would say it was a cover up. so cant see any point carrying this on.

you would never endanger them Paul and 100% trust the trainers advice

No I think we all know it was a heart attack but one that was possibly avoidable compared to most .

hindsight is a wonderful thing, let's not apportion any blame here

Died what he loved doing best.... Also ran one of his best ever races.  I hope Thistlecrack goes on to win the gold cup and makes 'Clouds' epitaph all the greater. I have raised afew glasses in his honour tonight!  RIP Clouds..

if the horse was a flat horse and had that history it would have been retired of course

as the horse has no sell-on value if it's retired, it's basically going to be waiting around in a field until it dies

however you could also make the argument that it's animal endangerment. I think you could easily bring in a rule where owners aren't allowed to race on their horses if there seems a high chance they will collapse on course. given Many Clouds previous history of wobbling after his races, under the new rule he wouldn't be allowed to race anymore.

The problem is i'm sure owners don't want to see their horses die either but for them it's also a financial and emotional investment so they are willing to take that risk.

I think that Native River is in the Many Clouds mould and will test the favourite.
I had much to thank Many Clouds for after his Mackeson and National wins.

If there had been any heart problem after his earlier wobbles I'm sure that he would have been retired.

but why did he wobble then?

it must have been something to do with the heart?

I think the problem is at the moment it seems to be up to the owners. many in that situation would retire the horse, many would ask him to carry on. I think the argument is for animal welfare reasons you could take it out of their hands and basically it would be up to the racing authorities.

of course that doesn't preclude the possibility that they might try and race it abroad or something.

it isnt up to owners, its the trainer and vets who will decide, so you are saying the bha are better placed to judge than vets

and he didnt wobble today

The problem is i'm sure owners don't want to see their horses die either but for them it's also a financial and emotional investment so they are willing to take that risk.

the owner needs the money????

and the vast majority of horses cost owners money not make them a profit, so imo you are talking bollix

Trevor Hemmings
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Known for    Owning Preston North End F.C.
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I rarely post but my god what a way to go out. This race will go down as legend and be spoken for years. It was very similar to the 2000 Champ Chase where EDB under AP got up somehow to beat Direct Route. I'm still numb by it all, the duel and then THAT announcement. Beautiful, Epic and tragic all in about 5 minutes. And what a fitting tribute it would be if Thistlecrack goes onto win the big one in March. RIP Many Clouds, the bravest I've ever seen.

the owner doesn't need the money perhaps but he still wants to see the horse run which wouldn't be the case if he retired him.

so yes you're right the owners aren't greedy but they are greedy to watch him run. but that isn't really the issue. the issue is whether or not it's safe for him to race. If he's wobbled, then surely that's a sign that there's something untoward with the horse, that might not even be picked up by a vets exam, and it's therefore reasonable to suggest he should be retired.

the owner doesnt need the money PERHAPS, come on he does it because he loves the sport. greedy to watch it run.... REALLy

At the end of the day it's a game humans play with animals the winners are always the humans the animals never gain anything
except a bit of feed and attention, but they take the risk as money is a concept accepted by us all.

He could have broken a leg out in the field ,I have had it happen twice.
He went out like a warrior and showed all the qualities that endear horses to humans ,brave animals doing our bidding with grace ,fearlessness and the beauty that only equines have.
Sad but there are worse ways to go .

"animals never gain anything" ?

How about 'life'?

Horses by Presenting, Midnight Legend, Robin Des Champs, et al, would never be born if it wasn't for jump racing.

Some people may suggest that would be a 'good thing', but I'm not one of them, and I'd rather have a world with the likes of Red Rum, Desert Orchid, One Man, Edredon Bleu, etc, than without them.

The thing is Lewisham you should have posted these concerns after or before Many Clouds won at Aintree earlier in the season.

Today he put up a great performance today and likely died of a heart attack, 11 years ago Best Mate put up his worst performance and died of a heart attack. It is just one of those unfortunate things and if you saw my 14year old retired mare in the field the other day kicking and running about then I believe that she would love to be in a race again.

Many Clouds gave me a lot of pleasure over the past few years, I don't think I ever backed him.

If I wasa horse, I would rather be a racehorse for Breedingmads bit of feed and attention than the zero feed and attention those horses get in the field opposite me.

Horses wouldn't stop breeding if we didn't exist and they did.

Pillock

I'm sure he loves the sport but that's not the issue.

The issue is what's safe for the horse. If a horse has shown signs of collapse before, then I believe the racing authorities should be able to exercise a power to prevent said horse from racing again. The owners opinion shouldn't really come into it.

How many horses break their legs in a field it's probably a smaller figure than people killed by getting killed
in car crashes.It's an excuse that is unfounded show me some figures then I may believe you, but I suspect you are
repeating something someone told you and not actual fact.

what, because I didn't express those opinions at the time, I'm not allowed to have an opinion now?

Your viewpoint makes no sense.

LR who says the owner had any opinion about the horse running today. like  mjost owners they liesten to the trainer who works with the horse on a daily basis. like i said if vets say the horse is okaym why would the bha say it isnt?

Which part of I have had it happen twice do you not understand?

The bottom line is, people, understandably, find death hard to deal with, and when it inevitably happens, they want to blame, or think of ways it could have been avoided.

reading some of the above that would seem about right George

Your opinion is based on what has happened today I don't believe that he wobbled after the Aintree race so the problem seemed to have gone after the wind op.

well that's true what you say dealer but I doubt the trainer would say to the owner "lets retire this horse"

I did find it a bit curious when the trainer said after the race about the horse would die for them and today he has done so.

I don't think that sherwood is anything but broken up by this loss though. The point I'm trying to make is that trainers and owners don't basically retire horses in these sort of cases and perhaps you could make the argument that they should do so.

but your wrong trainers and owners retire horses on a weekly basis

to suggest Sherwood would not have retired the horse because he was selfish and had  no thoughts for the horses welfare is just 100% wrong imo

that's not what i suggested.

I just take the view that owners and trainers (particularly in jump racing) have an aggressive view of this sort of thing, they take the view that these are racehorses, they're there to be raced, they're a tough breed and they can take it, which is fair enough.

I just think if you've got a horse that's wobbling and he's not just done it once but he's done it twice, the decision should be taken out of the connections hands.

Anyway I'm tired of repeating myself.

It's quite obvious that most people would carry on with the game no matter how dangerous it was, I gamble
so I know .I'm just being honest, if it was elephants and horses didn't exist you would still carry on
and make excuses if they died, it's not a fair game,but we would  never be enslaved in a similar game
as humans but because of their inferior intelligence and speed they have become our sport.,

It's quite obvious that most people would carry on with the game no matter how dangerous it was,

What a nonsense statement, so if 50% of horses were being killed each season, most people would carry on with it, or would even be allowed to?

It brought back memories of Persian Punch collapsing at Sandown.

I know the risk involved I know horses now I just bet on the flat mainly but there is nothing worse than getting a bet up
and knowing the horse that got your bet up died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrLniTEv05c

One Man, Young Kenny, Gloria Victus, Alverton, Ten Plus, Dunkirk, Best Mate, Forgive N Forget, Golden Cygnet and Dawn Run, just ten names of many of great horses that lost their lives on the racecourse.

I think that's what makes jump racing great, the mix of glory and death, elation and despair, the epitome of life itself!

Time may tell, but there is a good chance Many Clouds ran to his highest ever mark today. That he eeked out an extra 8lbs of improvement but it was too much.

What a brave soul he was.

I think if you look back at Many Clouds when he won the Grand National you'll see
in this clip he was being pushed too far imo.

It's wrong

Pushing horses out is wrong?

Perhaps you should find another hobby.

Thought it was pulling em that was wrong.

That was gutting end to a horse who,d never give up. Bit like the movie "the champ" RIP

We don't know for sure what caused Many Clouds to collapse and die. It may have been a heart attack unrelated to his known problems.

But it seems very unfair to put a horse in a race when you know that at the end it might be struggling to breath and need oxygen.

Lord Atterbury needed oxygen after he finished third in the Grand National. I think he needed oxygen previous to that, after running at Cheltenham.
I think his dam had the same problem.

They used to have the oxygen ready for Butler's Cabin too, as he had this problem.

I imagine that not being able to get your breath is very frightening and like I said, it seems unfair, and against the welfare of a horse, to knowingly put it in this position (Although my main welfare concern when it comes to racehorses is what happens to them when they are retired. Even Hello Dandy ended up needing to be rescued)

We have to console ourselves with the fact that Many Clouds died quickly and he would have been very well loved and cared for at home. He had a good 10 years. So sad that he has been denied a happy retirement.

Yes , I agree with that.

Thank you.

One of the most shocking case of neglect concerning a well known horse ( think we like to not even consider what happens to all the animals with no ability) involved Exceller, who ran in the Bunker-Hunt colours and won the Coronation Cup and was 3rd to The Minstrel in the King George before winning a string of top US races. Wiki sums up the events leading to his death:

In 1991, the syndicate was bought out by a breeder from Sweden and Exceller was shipped back across the Atlantic Ocean. He sired a few crops of foals, then was diagnosed with a mysterious infection that forced his removal from stud service for several years. When Exceller's owner went bankrupt, the horse was moved to a small farm where he remained for a year before owner Göte Östlund ordered him killed. He was taken to a slaughterhouse and killed for meat.

Another will publicised case in involved Alec Stewarts Ebor winner Daarkom who was rescued in a dreadful state from a group of travellers.

All dreadful cases. Persian War was another hero to be abused.

Perhaps I have missed them but I can not see any postings that make mention of Billy Bow who died in similar tragic circumstances.

Poppydog. 28 Jan 17 18:19 Joined: 07 Sep 01 | Topic/replies: 15,202 | Blogger: Poppydog.'s blog
"I thought ITV handled it very well too. The after-the-line mic interviewer was kept out of it."

That is utter bollox. No way was the interviewer kept out of it. If you actually watched the coverage you would have seen that Ollie Bell was there about to interview the jockey who was circling the horse around him. The only reason the cameras cut away from that shot was that the horse dropped dead in front of the interviewer. Instead of allowing the horse to recover ITV were straight in for the usual post race interview and what we got from them afterwards was the same old dumping down propaganda which makes dimwits like puppydog feel better. They're trying to increase racing's audience which means they have to convince a proportion of squeamish people that it's OK that racing kills horses. Far better to show the carcass being winched onto the knacker's van then we all know where we stand. Of course that wouldn't wash with the media types.

RIP many clouds.

Some of this 'brave, gallant, going out on his shield, will to win' stuff never really seems that genuine to me although you can see why people in racing cling to it. Many Clouds was a seriously good racehorse who had the ability to dig deep. The fact that he was trained (through fear) to get to the bottom of that ability has helped him to the top of the game and also killed him. Using the horses 'bravery' or 'gallantry' as a reason for his death is a bit of a cop out if you ask me. If you want to see a brave horse then have a look at Mad Moose..

Dont think he was given an overly aggressive ride - agree with the comments that he was just a bomb waiting to go off next time he was pushed in a battling finish and possibly should have been retired after the GN.

Presumably he had been thoroughly checked out by a qualified vet following his 'wobbling' episodes and was deemed fit to race on, and appeared to have no issues following his win at Aintree last time out.

I appreciate some you of you may have this utopic vision that Grand National winners should be retired to go and live in a field happily ever after, but provided they're physically sound why not carry on with them, particularly in this horse's case as he retained all of his ability?

As for the 'risk' factor, well where do draw the line given every horse who competes over obstacles is at risk of falling and potentially losing its life, do you suggest doing away with jump racing?

The saddest day that I've been to the races. And I backed him as well. What a brave horse in that last furlong.

Some "animal rights" person is threatening to get the police on to the BHA

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4168724/BHA-WARNED-not-run-Clouds-big-races.html

The BHA's response to the death of Many Clouds:

'First and foremost our thoughts are with all of those who would have loved and cared for Many Clouds throughout his great career.

'It is too early to say with any certainty what happened to Many Clouds. The BHA will help coordinate a post-mortem in the coming days to ascertain the cause of the incident.

'The horse was cared for by Cheltenham's team of Vets within seconds of displaying any signs of distress. Sadly, it was not possible to save him. Incidents such as this are extremely rare.

'The symptoms exhibited by Many Clouds after his run in the Grand National are not uncommon in racehorses after exercise. It is linked to an increase in body temperature and can be treated by providing the horse with water.

'The BHA holds a list of all horses who exhibit these symptoms in order that they can be provided with water should they show the symptoms again. There is no existing veterinary evidence which links these symptoms with racehorse fatalities.

'Since the year 2000 over £32m has been invested by British racing into veterinary science and research, which benefits all breeds of horses in Britain, not just thoroughbreds.

'The sport is currently engaged in several pieces of research aimed at gaining a better understanding and finding ways to reduce the likelihood of sudden equine fatalities which are thankfully extremely rare.

'These include Levy Board-funded research with experts at the University of Nottingham looking at the development of cardiac assessment technology.

'The BHA has also recently completed a racecourse study with the support of trainers to collect information on horses' post-race heart rhythms. Sudden equine fatalities can occur at rest as well as during exercise, and among seemingly healthy horses.

'They affect all equestrian sports including racing, eventing and show-jumping. Many are caused by heart attacks or internal haemorrhage, but there also a significant proportion where a definitive cause cannot be identified.

'The levels of care that the 14,000 horses in training at any one time receive throughout their lives is virtually unsurpassed by any other domestic or domesticated animal.

'In exchange for this care they are asked to do what they are bred to do, which is race. There is a level of risk associated with this, as with any exercise involving horses.

'The BHA is open and transparent about this risk. In jump racing that level or risk is just 0.4 per cent, a figure which has decreased by around 1/3 in the last 20 years.'

'Animal Aid are not a registered welfare charity. Their stated aim is to ban all horseracing despite the catastrophic impact this would have on the thoroughbred as a breed.

'Their understanding of this incident is entirely without evidence and not based on recognised veterinary science. The BHA works with recognised welfare organisations such as the RSPCA and World Horse Welfare.'

The Daily Mail has been anti-jump racing for some time now which is a stance surely at odds with a so called patriotic Newspaper that is supposed to support established home traditions and customs. Damn sly of whoever on the staff is behind this.

the horses are just the tools of the industry. absurd to suggest otherwise

where are the tears for all the useless yearlings and 2yos that go to the glue factory?

They shoot arses don't they?

Not one mention of Going Concern today.

It seems very odd to me that some folk on this thread are taking snipes at one another. Surely when something sad happens we should pull together. Thoughts go out to all connected with the animal.

Correct, Ekbalco. Obviously the horse didn't have anything like the same public profile but it is sad for the connections of the horse.
Deaths of horses are a regular occurance and whilst no-one likes to see any horse injured those of us who watch horses, gamble on them, own them etc have to accept that it happens or find another hobby. I can't quite understand some of the vitriol being aimed at Sherwood and Hemmings.

Oliver Sherwood
3 mins ·
The BHA have released a statement with regard to the findings of the post mortem examination on Many Clouds, the full press release has been sent to the press association.
The BHA can confirm that Many Clouds was found to have suffered from a cardiac failure, this was the cause of his death following the race.
No underlying health issues were discovered in the autopsy.
Many Clouds had worn a heart rate monitor, provided by "EquinITy Intelligent Training" in training on November 17th 2016. EquinITy has confirmed that the data showed that the horse had no abnormalities with his heart function prior to the race.
While Many Clouds had shown symptoms of post race ataxia in the past, a syndrome characterised by loss of balance in walking following exercise, the horse had never collapsed before, the horse had shown no signs of post race ataxia or similar symptoms following the conclusion of the race on Saturday.
Tony Welsh acting chief veterinary officer for the BHA added:
"Post race ataxia and similar symptoms are linked to an increase in body temperature after exercise and can be treated by providing the horse with water.
It is not uncommon in racehorses or other sport horses. Despite some reports following the incident, there is no existing veterinary evidence which links these symptoms with racehorse fatalities, and the post mortem results have categorically proved that the symptoms exhibited by Many Clouds in the past were in no way present or associated with his sad death at Cheltenham.
The fatality rate within jump racing for horses suffering from cardiac failure is just 0.048% of runners.
The overall fatality rate within British Racing has decreased by 1/3 in the last 20 years owing to the sports significant ongoing investment in equine health and welfare.
"Sudden equine heart attacks such as these are rare. It has been known to happen to horses at rest as well as after exercise and can occur in horses which have no underlying health issues and amongst all disciplines of sport horses".

I thought this would be the outcome. Thank you for posting, The Dealer.

its a shame that some are quick to jump on the attack before the full facts are known. i have no doubt that this will still not appease them though.

Didn't think either Sherwood or Hemmings would have risked the horse without full vetinary clearance. Two of the good guys in the sport.

The press release states Many Clouds suffered a severe pulmonary haemorrhage which caused his death.  That is acute bleed from the lung upper respiratory tract and the trachea.  They didn't postulate that aphyxia with resultant heart attack which might have increased pulmonary microvascular pressure was the cause.  They state it was not linked to the post-race ataxia Many Clouds has suffered after some races in the past.

there is some humble pie to be eaten now the news is out, the cause of death is clearly unrelated to the previous issues