ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS,POSSIBLY GREAT NEWS!

do most on course bookmakers still play with their own money ?

DR ATKINS,TOOK OVER 10 WITH FRACTIONS BETS TODAY AT UTTOX,ALTHOUGH YOU DO HAVE A POINT WITH THE TIC TACS!

NO MOST PLAY WITH DAQ/FAIRS MONEY!

THEY JUST TAKE A COMMISSION!

the only way bookmakers will take more money his cut the number of bookmakers down in the betting ring and stop bookmakers betting out the back just rails and tatts that's it people who paid good money for a low pick should have an advantage but it won't happen games dead down south been like it for years

THE ONLY WAY BOOKMAKERS WILL TAKE MORE MONEY IS TO IRRADICATE THE COMMISSION AGENTS IN THE BETTING RING,PEOPLE WHO PAID GOOD MONEY FOR A LOW PICK SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO HOOVER ALL THE ONCOURSE MONEY INTO THE EXCHANGES,HOPEFULLY THIS WILL HAPPEN,AND THE GAME WILL SURVIVE!

THE NUMBER OF BOOKMAKERS WILL THEN INCREASE AGAIN!

the game was dead once a 38 pick got on the front line should never happen

THEN THE FRONT LINE ISNT ANY GOOD????????

don't matter a person who has paid good money for a low pick should have a major advantage over someone who's got say 22 pick end of story

YOU OWN A RACECOURSE,PICK NUMBER 10 TURNS UP 4 TIMES A YEAR,PICK NUMBER 38 NEVER MISSES,BOTH PAY THE SAME TO BET,I KNOW WERE MY LOYALTIES WOULD LIE!

YOU PAY GOOD MONEY FOR A LOW PICK,AND THATS WHAT YOU GET,PICK NUMBER 88 PAYS THE SAME TO BET AS PICK NUMBER 1 CHELTENHAM GOLD CUP DAY!

WHEN THE EXCHANGES GO,PICK NUMBER 1 WILL PROBABLY BE LAYING OFF WITH PICK 88

but we all know certain members who were on the track bookmakers cartel made sure the rails bookmakers down south got all the sweets

Christ, this is difficult to read.  No problem with people typing in CAPS if it's an eyesight issue, but any chance that you guys could have a stab at punctuating?

NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW HOW THEY GOT AWAY WITH THE ONE FOR ONE MECHANISM IN NEW AREAS,LOVE TO KNOW WHAT REALLY WENT ON

Only problem is, from a legal point of view, I don't see how racecourses can prevent a legal activity (transactions with betfair) from taking place.

SOME RACECOURSES ALREADY STOP PEOPLE FROM BETTING INRUNNING (A LEGAL ACTIVITY),IT WOULDNT BE POLICED BY THE RACECOURSES THOUGH BUT BY A BODY LIKE THE AGT WHO WOULD AS PART OF A PROVISO OF ALLOWING A BOOKMAKER TO BET,WOULD HAVE FULL ACCESS TO ANY EXCHANGE ACCOUNTS,ANYONE BOOKMAKER FOUND TO BE LAYING OFF ON ANY EXCHANGE WOULD FACE SUSPENSION FROM THE BETTING RING!

the exchange are a god send  too the track layers...why  ok lay the punter  any part of that bet   you dont like...dump it on here

FACT,THE EXCHANGES ARE A DISASTER TO THE TRACK LAYERS,WHY,THE COMMISSION AGENTS WHO NOW OUTNUMBER THE BOOKMAKERS FIRE EVERY PENNY BACK INTO EXCHANGES INSTEAD OF THE RING,HOPEFULLY THATS ALL ABOUT TO CHANGE!

factmachine - I am an "in-running player" and some tracks have attempted to stop me. However, a suitably worded communication from my Solicitor (also me) has put an end to them trying to stop me.

SURELY THIS WILL ALSO INCREASE THE VALUE OF ALL ONCOURSE PITCHES,EVEN MINE

MOMENTUM IS BUILDING!

IF RUMORS ARE TO BE BELIEVED

This is the bit I have problems with factmachine.  There are always rumours in this game.

WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR WASNOT??????????

THOUGHT SO!

totally in favour factmachine.  only proviso for me is that it applies to EVERYONE and the penalties for cheats are severe.

FANTASTIC,COULDNT AGREE MORE!

and of course that it is legal to do so

I REMEMBER AROUND 16 YEARS AGO WHEN THE RUMORS WERE FLYING AROUND THAT SOMEONE WAS ABOUT TO SET UP AN ONLINE EXCHANGE WERE UNLICENSED LAYERS WOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE BETS ON ALMOST EVERY SPORT INCLUDING HORSE RACING AND THE EXCHANGE WOULD TAKE A COMMISSION OUT OF WINNING/LOSING BETS,BUT THE ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS DIDNT NEED TO WORRY BECAUSE "THERE WAS NO WAY THIS COULD BE LEGAL" WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.THE POINT BEING THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN

It was obvious when oncourse bookmakers woke up to the fact that betting exchanges existed,and it took them some time,that hedging money would disappear from the ring.Yet nobody appeared to be bothered ,as it suited them to lay off at better prices than those initially laid.Now,many years later,after suffering ever lowering turnover,they want to introduce restrictive practices,which will surely be challenged as to their legality.
  Why should you have access to exchange prices to set the market,yet want to outlaw the trading on exchanges.This will be very interesting,and surely very divisive.

yeah we can go back to the old days when some books had private layers near their joint

What is the origin of this rumour or the basis of this fact ? I take no pleasure from reiterating my comments years ago that the embracing of exchanges by bookmakers was akin to having a death wish.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WANTING TO "OUTLAW THE TRADING ON EXCHANGES" ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS COULD LAY WHATEVER THEY WANTED ON THE INCREASINGLY WEAK EXCHANGES,PUNTERS COULD STILL BACK ON THE EXCHANGES IF THEY WISHED(AND PAY COMMISSION)OR PUNT IN THE RING AT LEAST THE SAME PRICE WITH MORE LIQUIDITY,THE ONLY PROVISO IS AS AN ONCOURSE BOOKMAKER YOU CANT HAVE BACK BETS INTO THE EXCHANGE,99% OF BOOKMAKERS WOULD BE IN FAVOR,EVEN SOME OF THE COMMISSION AGENTS ARE IN FAVOR!

"99% of bookbakers would be  in favour,and some of the comm. agents are in favour".Sounds  like a distorted statement!
  Imagine trying to administrate non hedging off at Cheltenham.Dream on!
  Factmachine,try to accept that there are more than 1 runner in a horse race,and bookmakers can't match exchange prices other than on the favourite.So another of your theories goes out the window,without any comm.!

"BOOKMAKERS CANT MATCH EXCHANGE PRICES OTHER THAN ON THE FAVOURITE" ITS INTERESTING THAT YOU MENTION CHELTENHAM,FACT,FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS EVERY FAV AT THE CHELTENHAM FESTIVAL TRADES BIGGER IN TATTS THAN ON ANY EXCHANGE(MO COMMISSION,NO PREMIUM CHARGE,AS FOR THE REST OF THE RUNNERS EVERY HORSE WILL BE AT LEAST THE SAME UP TO 12/1 AND EVERY HORSE WILL TRADE BIGGER ON THE PLACE MARKETS IN THE RING,SO ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR THEORIES GOES OUT THE WINDOW UNBIASED!

Thanks for the direct reply ! NOT ! As for previous two posts if backing on Exchanges was to be outlawed it could be policed quite simply by software suppliers being asked to incorporate an exclusive Exchange Back Report  (it might already exist ) for all races/meetings and AGT/GC having the right to request this print out at any time. Cheltenham would be the same as any other meeting presenting no more of a problem. As for bookmaker v Exchange argument at Sandown last Friday a horse in the last race was backed with serious money ( several 100 e/w bets struck ) at all rates from 40/1 down to sp of 12/1. The individuals behind the 'move' realised where the value existed i.e on-course, in terms of value/price and liquidity !

The only way this could realistically work is if WIFI was blocked in the betting ring and the immediate surrounding areas, this would have the effect of both stopping the bookmakers "mates" laying off on the exchanges for them and the punters accessing betting accounts on their smart phones.
As the majority of racedays are sponsored by the Bookmakers can you see this happening?
Imagine Betf*** chase day & the huge publicity around  it yet the sponsors customers cannot access the site.

With respect shadder I think you are making a different point.

DEMOCRAT,WITH ALL DUE RESPECT,I DONT THINK YOU HAVE EVER GIVEN ME A DIRECT REPLY TO ANY QUESTION I HAVE ASKED YOU ON THIS FORUM,LIKE ADGE I ALWAYS HAD YOU DOWN AS A FENCE SITTER!

THE BOOKMAKER THAT BROUGHT THIS IDEA TO MY ATTENTION IS A WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED LAYER,WHEN THE IDEA WAS MENTIONED TO FELLOW BOOKIES(NOT COMMISSION AGENTS) IT HAS HAD ALMOST 100% SUPPORT.FACT!

I take that as a complement given the source. I believe I try to concentrate on debating the subject in question without resorting to personal jibes. Perhaps I have succeeded in only one theses regards. I'll try harder in the future given this reprimand.

AS YOU HAVE POSTED(12.03) PEOPLE ARE BEGGINING TO SEE WHERE THE VALUE IS,THE EXCHANGES ARE NOW AT THEIR WEAKEST,IF THIS IDEA CAN BE PUSHED THROUGH CAN YOU IMAGINE THE LIQUIDITY IN THE EXCHANGES FOR HORSE RACING?

SIMPLE QUESTION,WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR????????????

BE CAREFUL OF THOSE SPLINTERS!

100%

FANTASTIC!

Why would race courses be in favour of it.  Their customers would just end up getting worse prices wouldn't they ?

NO!

THE RACECOURSE PUNTERS COULD HAVE ACCESS TO ANY BETTING MEDIUM THEY WANT,THE EXCHANGES WOULDNT BE REMOVED FROM RACECOURSES,JUST THE ABILITY FOR COMMISSION AGENTS TO BET BACK INTO THE EXCHANGE WOULD BE REMOVED!

PS,DO YOU THINK CHESTERBET AND ALL THE OTHER RACECOURSE INHOUSE BETTING OUTLETS GIVE A RATS ARSE ABOUT PUNTERS GETTING THE BEST PRICE?????

FACT,THE BEST PRICE IS IN THE RING TO GOOD MONEY,THIS IDEA WILL MAKE THE RINGS EVEN STRONGER AND THE ALREADY WEAK EXCHANGES WEAKER!

Unless you ban laptops and phones it isn't rocket science how to chuck it back on here is it?

NO AND IT ISNT ROCKET SCIENCE TO FIND OUT WHO IN THE BETTING RING HAS!

factmachine,do you offer standard e.w. terms on ALL races with 5 or more runners?

factmachine
Date Joined:    02 Nov 05
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08 Dec 16 16:03
NO AND IT ISNT ROCKET SCIENCE TO FIND OUT WHO IN THE BETTING RING HAS!


Would be really difficult to make a hand gesture to someone else in the ring/crowd to lay it back.....Good luck proving that has happened. I can see full investigations into these practices already, phone records being obtained and all sorts going on by the powers that be, just to see if someone has used Betfair on course. Not a chance in hell of stopping it regardless of the rules that could be put in place, and why would a course pursue it when they would effectively ban a paying agent? Would it be good if it did happen - yes it probably would, will it happen - I would bet 1.05 that it never will.

Don't most books use Daq?Isn't the link-up for "Daq",rather than on here?
factmachine,any answer to the e.w. question?

Is the OP in favour of banning oncourse books from laying on the machine lets go the whole hog?

Yes I'm pretty sure Lord Facts does offer standard ew on-course terms for 5+ runners.

To find them, just look for the signs for the litter bins as thats near to where you usually find him set up

ulul

how ironic that would be people with licences not allowed to lay horses on an exchange those without just freely keep laying.

factmachine

great idea but no chance of happening when was the last time race course bookmakers did something that would improve things for most ?

Yes foxy the world's gone mad. If a private layer stood behind your joint offering 11/4 a 9/4 chance and the powers that be realised he would be ejected from the course and the pitch holder stood down. But if the hedging is via the internet with unlicensed layers on here it's perfectly ok. You could not make it up !!!

Nice idea but cant see it getting out of the blocks tbh. Who would monitor it? AGT? They would want paying & who would cough up on top of the daily £20?

It was tried many years ago and didnt work then so no reason to expect any different now

Random checks for 'the reports' I mentioned earlier intheknow would not be too onerous for the BRM and certainly not justify an additional charge.

the rule brought in 18 months or so ago about having to be in the bookmakers account and the declaration to the tax man was never enforced its a free for all out there and some of the biggest culprits are those who scream the most if things dont suit them.

What about those books that hedge via the dreaded earpiece? Cant see that being on any printout? Any audit trail that goes past the on the day printouts will disappear into thin air imo.

As we know, there is unlikely to be 100% backing behind it despite it being a good idea, so there will always be those that cheat their way around things.

For that reason it will prob get the comment RR in the formlines

there is only 0ne brm who does the job properly and has no favorites.

Dammit foxy I thought I was everybody's favourite !!! As for 'through the air' operators intheknow they would need to keep  such transactions outside the book in order to remain undetected. I appreciate there are ways and means of getting around this but if you don't try...... Enforcement of the process would be 90% of the solution - therein lies the problem.

Thats the problem, 'ways and means around this'

I cant see the AGT being the heavies in this tbh

The horse bolted when that #### Hughes used his chairmans vote to alter the status quo many moons ago something that very rarely happens in business practice but he saw fit to do it,can't be much doubt how he came to the decision but libel laws etc mean we better leave it at that.
Nobody railed against it more than me but all the early pioneers "who'd never had it so good" thought it was marvellous hence why we are stuck with it now,can't stand watching all the useless ##### with their heads in the computer masquerading as bookmakers with them slavishly copying every move on here worried sh1tless they may get caught with something but its an absolute pipedream to think anything is going to change.

indeed intheknow as soon any decent rule comes in bookmakers find ways and means to f..k the idea.

SORRY UNBIASED JUST GOT BACK,YES I DO OFFER STANDARD EWAY TERMS EVERY RACE,ALWAYS HAVE DONE,ALSO TAKE FRACTION BETS WIN OR EWAY,AND WILL TAKE AND STAND A DECENT BET,HENCE BEFORE THE EXCHANGES I WOULD HAVE 4/5 FLOOR MEN FROM OTHER FRONT LINE "BOOKS" STOOD IN FRONT OF THE JOINT

IT WAS ALSO A "PIPE DREAM" THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE ABLE TO SIT AT HOME WITH NO LICENSE LAYING HORSES!

FOXY,I PRESUME YOUR REFERRING TO THE COURTYARD SITUATION,OR IS THAT JUST A CASE OF PURE GREED?????????????

INTHEKNOW,DOESNT OWN 1 PITCH,(JUST A WORKMAN) OPINIONS WORTHLESS

Lord Facts thinks he was the English Macbet

not at all factmachine i am referring to pitch renting/sharing and books using other peoples money.

Interesting post ribero. According to your account it would appear that it was a great shame that a certain majority percentage was not required in order to enable a 'change' of this nature to be made. I think we all accept that it is nigh on impossible to get this genie back in the bottle. The clock is ticking layers ( on course that is ) be warned !

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL BE THE BOOKMAKERS BREXIT FROM THE EXCHANGES

Democrat I've posted this many times before but those who were on it early couldn't believe their luck as all of a sudden they could take the ring on and make a killing,we even had a well attended meeting at York racecourse where the pros and cons were discussed.
Will Roseff spoke very well advising against their use but as I said it went to a vote among the powers that be and Hughes used his casting vote,the big firms didn't want it (I even had correspondence with the Hills ceo at the time over it) and we organised an exchange free day at Catterick where the firms put money into the ring every race but in fairness overdid it and a lot were crying they couldn't cope and that was the end of it.

Thanks for the explanation ribero. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if the clock could be rewound I wonder if the consensus established at that time would be the same now ? Can I ask if those instrumental to the decision that was made were the sharpest pencils in the box ? No perhaps I wont !

HAD A DUMMY RUN TODAY AT CHELTENHAM LOOKING FORWARD TO WHEN IT GOES LIVE

HAD A DUMMY RUN TODAY AT CHELTENHAM LOOKING FORWARD TO WHEN IT GOES LIVE

HAD A DUMMY RUN TODAY AT CHELTENHAM LOOKING FORWARD TO WHEN IT GOES LIVE

The only dummy run your colleagues are looking out for is the one where we put one in your mouth

WHEN A WELL KNOWN RAILS COMMISSION AGENT WAS APPROACHED WITH THE IDEA,HIS RESPONSE WAS "OVER MY DEAD BODY" NOW THERES A SHOCK

Well let me say, you mob will have to get your finger out of your @rses and try and make the product you are selling more atractive to your customers, standing there like modern day Fagins trying to pinch a penny or two just wont do. It wont be long till ALL the racecourses can have their own pool betting and I suspect if they are not too greedy with their percentages it will be the end of oncourse bookies.
Nobody shouts the odds these days (in the old days they would lay the prices  they roared and  try and to  attract punters) because if the price has gone on the exchanges you lot just wont lay above the exchanges and thats without taking a bet.

MMMA YOUR QUITE RIGHT IN RESPECT OF THE ONCOURSE COMMISSION AGENTS THEY ARE JUST ARBERS MASQUERADING AS BOOKMAKERS,BUT THE THE FACT IS IF YOU BACK ON THE EXCHANGES YOU ARE BACKING ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS PRICES LESS COMMISSION!

I've been a regular (30-40 times per year) racegoer for more than 30 years and on course bookmaking has seriously declined in that period in terms of numbers of bookies but most importantly in variation of prices available and whilst this has become more apparent recently, is it really directly related to exchanges?  i was at uttoxeter, leicester, warwick and cheltenham last week and at leicester/warwick in particular the approx 15-20 bookies were offering almost exactly the same prices on all the runners apart from the real outsiders where 50s/66s/100 were available on the same horse, but from 20/1 and below there was almost universal pricing and when the market did move it did in unison.  the shorter priced runners were available at approx same price as the exchanges but is that enough to take business? with more and more high st bookies taking BOG, it doesn't make sense to bet on course or even with the exchanges on shorter priced runners (assuming you can get on of course - I no longer have BOG with victor or stan)...

I don't undertand why after taking the time/effort/cost to stand, bookies don't actually try to take money from the market?  there are a few notable exceptions - i noted that john hughes at cheltenham on friday was invariably top priced (or equal) for almost all the runners and gary wiltshire at warwick also seemed to have decent prices...

on a positive note, most of the books do now offer proper e/w terms

Does 'Woody' still do the boxes and the clerking stools with the legs that were always falling out?

Agree with Gordon63. I went to Chepstow last season and the 5/6 books were all the same price, and then they all change at the same time without anyone in the queue having a bet! Why would I want to bet with any of them? Been to Cheltenham a few times in the last year and mainly the same as well. Surely half the buzz is finding the best prices with books who want to lay them. Last time I went to Taunton one book was 7/2 on one I wanted to back, nobody bet it whilst I was in the queue waiting and heard his computer man say "no more at the price" and it was changed to 3/1.

When I go racing now I place most of mine early morning or do it on my phone on course, as see no point of giving my money to the so called bookmakers (and that isn't to say there aren't a few out there, but I can never find them).

GORDEN,MAGIC,TRY LOOKING PAST THE FRONT LINE,OF WHICH THE VAST MAJORITY ARE COMMISSION AGENTS!

GORDON,SORRY!

JUST BEEN OUT IN THE GARDEN

JUST BEEN OUT IN THE GARDEN

facts, at leicester there only was one line but at the others i did walk up and down several times and didn't see much if any variation but john hughes trades on pitch #1 at cheltenham right in the front so perhaps he is a proper bookie? i guess at bigger meetings there may be more competition between the bookies but winning a grand on a poor day is just as good as winning a grand on a saturday

GORDON,THIS IS A FACT,PUNTERS HAVE NEVER EVER HAD THE VALUE ONCOURSE THAT THEY GET NOW,EVERY FAV,2ND FAV TRADES BIGGER THAN THE EXCHANGES(AT EVERY TRACK I STAND,MIGHT BE DIFFERENT DOWN SOUTH),THE PLACE MARKET IS MUCH STRONGER IN THE RING,ONLINE YOU CANT GET ON,BOG IS ONLY OFFERED TO PENNIES ON SELECTED RACES,COME RACING PUNTERS HAVE NEVER EVER HAD IT SO GOOD,AND IF THE IDEA OF BANNING ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS FROM BETTING INTO THE EXCHANGES HAPPENS EXPECT TO SEE THE ATMOSPHERE OF OLD WITH REAL PUNTERS BETTING WITH REAL BOOKMAKERS!

facts, 80% of my racing is in scotland or north england and historically the markets have been strong but this is definitely no longer true of ayr (which is a shame as it was always the place for big bets and big layers), although perth, hamilton, musselburgh seem to be standing up well.  i don't disagree about the books vs exchanges on short priced runners but let's face it the risks in laying a couple of £50 bets at 13/8 against 6/4 are not exactly great, and (in my experience) as soon as one of the books takes a £200 bet at 13/8 the LEDs across the board blink back to 6/4 whilst it's only been laid by a single book, however you don't often see 20s being offered vs 16s elsewhere when a single £20 can make an £80 difference

my gripe is with horses in the 6-20s range which is where i tend to bet, as there is little divergence there.

I'm still OK with BOG with a few of the high st/online so tend to stick with them and only top up my bets on course.

I'm not expert enough in your field to comment on the banning of books betting into exchanges but if you believe this will strengthen the on course market then count me as a supporter