FOBT's Panorama Monday 12 Sept 20.30 BBC1

Can't see why they want to know why they are addictive, that's for scientists to bother with. The relevant question is far more simple, why are they allowed in multiples on every high street in the land.

machines need to be limited both in number and money placed, £2 limit, but government will be in hold to the lobbyists and nothing done.

They are a massive cash cow for both the Government and bookies so whils't they may get a bit of a bloody nose tomorrow night it will all be brushed under the carpet within 48 hrs and forgotten about

Ironically, the bookies will say that *if* they are addictive, that is why they need to be in betting shops where entry is restricted to adults.

One of the questions should be why they were ever allowed in betting shops in the first place, bet bookmakers couldn't believe their luck.

On Breakfast BBC now.

Could be pretty interesting,they had a woman on who lost her partner who committed suicide having being addicted to the machines,she's certainly no fool and when Louise quoted the Bookmakers line she completely dissed it saying there just throwaway lines which are disgraceful.

The main point is IF they are NOT harmful to the masses why DIDN'T anyone from the firms go on the Panorama programme? Fairplay to the woman who got the point across that they all flatly refused.

In 2014 the government took £547m @ 20% machine tax...


this year it's 25% !  Everyone knows that they are casino machines and, therefore should be in casino's !

Christened the ''crack cocaine'' of gambling, for people of a certain mindset they are highly addictive !

T/O last year £11 billion. After the governments ''whack'' the industry shared £1.7 billion !

A record number of brown envelopes have just been bought on fleabay by various customers...

I reckon that woman will just not go away either, and she will be a constant pain to the books.

Speaking of brown envolopes, this all started when Gordon Brown abolished the betting duty in 2001, when UK bookies made a deal to pay the government levy on behalf of the punters, in return for the FOBS being allowed into shops.

We all understand the problems associated with gambling,but where does the £2 max for the machines come from?Why has £2 been suggested,as it is a massive drop,and it appears to be extremely low.
  The big surge is on online,but presumably very little research has been done on this,as opposed to fobt players in shops being visible to anybody in those shops.
   There are loads of different ways people can cause self harm,obesity,alcoholism,tobacco addiction,drug dependence etc.,and there have always been problem gamblers.Having spoken to some of the old-time dog track bookmakers,it appears the sums wagered at the dogs were massive.Personally,I was told a member of the family lost his house over a period of time,at the dogs!
   I am trying to understand why it is ALWAYS somebody else's fault when a person succumbs to weakness.
  So,the machines are addictive to some,and certain sections want them drastically restricted,or done away with,then what!

unbiased..what an ironic name...these machines are HARD gambling..ie suitable for licensed casinos only...properly regulated accountable casinos...pub limit machines were the accepted norm in the bookies..not £100  spin ..in casino you can witness the ball land in a number...not some virtual thingy that no one can properly explain how it decides what to pay out.

I am under the impression that the £2 per spin came about as that is the legal limits in pubs/arcades on machines. Any higher and they should be in a casino. Let's also mention that on the fobt a spin is every 20 seconds and in a casino it certainly isn't, in a casino you at least have some time to take a step back rather than a quick chase on a fobt.

Another point is the pop up of all the new shops in more deprived areas, and the fact that some shops were actually converted into 2 shops to get double the amount of machines in the same amount of space, that was eventually stopped.

If Panorama would have got some actual punters and consulted them, they could have asked the books why are nobody restricted on the machines by the shops, why do they do promotions with free spins and competitions, offer drinks and lunches in some cases to the machine players - yet do nothing of the sort regarding Sports Betting which they were originally on the high street for.

sofiakenny,the name was derived from being able to see things from more than one angle,and having an open mind,as opposed to a "biased" mind.
  A LBO,is just that,a premises licensed for gambling,without limits.We all know you can play £100/spin,but,at the same time,if you aren't restricted,and probably wouldn't be,can have an even £1000 on a horse,and more,or on a footie match.
  The areas called "deprived",would always have been strong gambling areas,that is how it is.
   Magic,don't forget that the amount of shops in the country is lower now than in peak years,but I accept that too many are clustered together.However,if the demand wasn't there they wouldn't stay open,as was the case with one of the "firm's shops near me.

sofia ...every minute of every day people can hard gamble in their own home with the abundance of online casinos

dealer...then why are the fotb machines in the bookies raking in so much?

unbiased  12 Sep 16 11:56

A LBO,is just that,a premises licensed for gambling,without limits


Lol, chance would be a fine thing

i cant see how your question is connected to what i said but imo online casinos are just as bad if not worse than the fobts in shop. they are in shop because the market is there, as all the books have casinos on site because there is a market there as well.

dealer..if fobt's are so wonderful why are they not tolerated in Ireland?

i dont think you are reading what im saying, who said fobts were wonderful?

Magic,don't forget that the amount of shops in the country is lower now than in peak years,but I accept that too many are clustered together.However,if the demand wasn't there they wouldn't stay open,as was the case with one of the "firm's shops near me.


Well in 2009 the amount of UK shops per company:

WH 2238
Lads 2080
Coral 1630
Freds 1322 (516 tote)


In 2016:

WH 2320     +82
Lads 2150   +70
Coral 1835  +205
Freds 1366  +44


That's not taking into account pp either who have obviously got more.

and the only reason there are so many is.......the satanic fobt.

The difference between ONLINE and IN THE SHOP is CASH. The unemployed and on benefits do not all have either bank accounts or computers. They are an easy target for the betting shops and that is often why they are in the areas they are in.
There is also money laundering. Drug dealers deal only in cash so to cover their tracks etc they can exchange it for other cash. What they put is is not necessarily what they get out, cash that is.
Add to that if more and more punters bet on their computers the only reason to keep the high street shops going is the FOBT's. They will tell the government that if these are restricted too much the will shut the shops. That will effect unemployment and council tax, business rates etc.

A friend is a betting shop manager and he gets threatened and abused every week in his shop by punters using FOBT's. He is not allowed to report it to the police so that is why they can claim that they are harmless. It is a strategy used by the bookmaking firms.
All of the punters in his shop that have barred themselves because of previous losses are from the FOBT's. None from ordinary punting.

well sayed brigust

Unbiased is presumably totally in favour of heroin being legalised.

The unemployed and on benefits do not all have either bank accounts or computers


All of the punters in his shop that have barred themselves because of previous losses are from the FOBT's. None from ordinary punting.
+

i doubt either statement is 100% correct.

apologies i miss read the first point, which of course is correct

TD I have just spoken to the person concerned and he told me that in over 10 years every self exclusion he has dealt with has been on FOBT's and that is true with every manager he speaks to with the very, very odd exception. I am not about to call him a liar because he has nothing to gain from saying that. He would dearly love to work in an environment that is friendly and not hostile.

I have been in 3 Ladbrokes shops lately in the west end,all have had an inside refurbishment and all had six brand new machines taking up 3 walls,the other wall had 3 race cards on it with no form shown because lack of space,and no evening cards,when i questioned the manager about this he offered me the form guides that should of been on the wall,i said you should put them up in the shop (and he could do this by moving the machines closer together), he just shrugged his shoulders and said well the machines make more money,that is the contempt proper horse racing punters are held in now days !

again i apologise brig, once again i didnt read your post correctly, you are again correct. there are still OTC punters who self exclude but they are few and far between. i have no doubt this figure will keep rising.

Mikael D'Haguenet,like many others on here,you are getting carried away with your comparison with drug taking.For what it is worth I would like to see heroin dealers get even bigger prison sentences,then bigger than bigger,having had a close friend die from the drug,although they chose to go down that route.There is nothing illegal about the machines,so it is a wrong comparison.
   Why do players play,and lose so much?Greed,and wanting to try and make  some easy money.
  I notice nobody wants to blame the political party's minister at the time,that allowed 4 fobt machines to be installed in every shop,and the local councils that were then responsible for licensing them.
   As it was so long ago I have forgotten the name of the minister responsible.If you can remember,then he/she should be the one held responsible,as the law had to be changed to allow the installation of these machines.

Theresa May aid she would be making Britain a fairer society.

So far she has backed down on the sugar tax
She is up for reintroducing grammar schools

If they do nothing about stake sizes on FOBT's then we have a hat trick of broken promises

Unbiased must be a shareholder. Carry on.

Of course I am a shareholder,but NOT in any betting or gaming company.Just not on your bandwagon.
A wrong assumption on your part.
Any answer yet,as to who sanctioned the law allowing the 4 machines/shop?

clashes with Only Connect...and for that reason, i'm out

Parliament sanctioned it. One minister doesn't decide anything.

Over the counter business has declined over the years so why are there more betting shops on the high streets? The books have opened up more premises to basically take money on machines and nothing else, it's the biggest contributor to the decline in horse racing imo.

Maybe if turnover of over the counter business isn't a certain amount the licences should start being revoked, as they are surely not operating as bookmakers?

Maybe if they were made take a min bet off punters in their shops ,bookies have to display min stake accepted and maximum payout on course so why not in shops!....

The two Ladbrokes within Victoria station are both there essentially for machine addicts to while away the time before they get their trains.
Fair bit of racing activity in both though, to be fair.

It is inconceivable those involved do not think the FOBTs is addictive, but do they care? Not a jolt,...they are only interested in the 'numbers' at the end of the day or come company results. Otherwise, the proliferation of betting shops in every high street would not have taken place; this has been done solely to increase the number of FOBTs in their shops ie more FOBTs = higher profit, end of.

As for gambleaware/self exclusion, this has been proven to be non-effective, the recent cases where adjudicators/courts fined certain companies and ordered them to repay money 'stolen' from innocent entities by their clients/users of FOBTs to be repaid. I also believe 'self exclusion' by bookies' on occasional winning punters/members on other sports eg tennis, football, horse racing, etc, is exercised more frequently and regularly eg restricting bets to pennies, sp only bets and/or closing betting accounts.

Defence Attorneys defend the guilty, and if you are a Chief Executive of a bookies it is your job to defend the company.  You don't have to agree with the person or company you are defending and I doubt they do.

I play FOBTs . I like playing them.

It`s time people start being responsible for their own behavior instead of waiting for the nannying state to help them. No one forces me to have a bet.

I don`t want the stakes reduced.  The best thing is for people who have got a problem with it, to get professional help.

Wonky making a total fool of himself yet AGAIN!!

Think it's about time that they made a t/v program about people not being able to get a bet on the horses, wonder how many people have they stopped form playing the machines because they have had a big win. As soon as you show that you know the time of day with horse racing they will either stop you betting or heavily restrict you. Let's have the machines out of the shops and maybe they will have to go back to what they should be doing TAKING BETS ON HORSES.

Then explain why firms that don't have any shops at all,still impose restrictions.It gets boring reading posters keep saying that if no machines,no restrictions,as they are clearly nothing to do with each other.Betting life has changed over the years!

unbiased, it has definitely got worse trying to get on in the last 10-15 years. Why would they want to take a chance on horse bets when they have a guaranteed profit long term on the machines. Another think that doesn't help are all the small independent shop's gone, you could go round a few shops and shred your money, now go in a few shops and after you've been in 6 shops word is out. Nearly all now owned by big 4/5 firms.

Amazes me if you want to play slots why not go to the casino. They have loads of those roulette machine and machines that mimic the actual tables. And you get free drinks and nibbles. The only drawback for the unwashed is there is always a 7 foot eastern European chap to turf you out if you kick off.

Wendy, the presenter scrubbed up well

Are bookies putting profits before people?

twas ever thus

Addiction is the compulsive psychological craving for a particular commodity eg tobacco, gambling, drugs, etc, and usually without the individual concerned knowing and/or realising he/she has developed an addiction that is beyond their control. As we are all built/constructed differently we behave/react and are affected by the exposure to a particular commodity in different ways ie how our brain reacts varies from one person to the next. This is different from 'people start being responsible for their own behaviour' - the individual just does not have control over their feeling or behaviour.

I can assure you no individual chooses to be addicted to drugs, gambling, etc - addiction occurs gradually but surely and eventually if one's (brain) is susceptible when exposed to that commodity. And the FOBT's is addictive because it is repetitive and delivers instant gratification (the lure of a financial reward) within a short period of time eg 20 secs.

So refreshing to see forumites with such a social conscience in this day and age.

Thought the programme came across well and obviously very hard for the presenter to understand it all.  The guy who she met that showed 4 receipts (some for 1k), at what stage was he offered the Responsible Gambling Leaflet etc... which the firms obviously state that they use so effectively.

My main concern is mentioned above and that this will raise awareness for a few days but then will get swept under the carpet.  I think this is about the 3rd of 4th TV programme about the subject, there has been a similar number of radio shows based on the topic.  There was the big parliament debate that went on a couple of years ago.  Ultimately, nothing has really changed and the FOBT's will remain and constantly grow wherever they are allowed to grow.

I don't play them anymore (thankfully) but that has meant that I can hardly bet anymore as well as I'm restricted all over.  In the height of playing the machines, I could have what I want on, when I want.  Nowadays, I feel like Pablo Escobar if I try to get more than £25 on a football match.

The sad thing is, I see so many people getting aggressive with the Machines all the time.  Whether it be the Eastern Europeans who are now crowding the machines and playing them all, shouting expletives in their foreign language while banging the machine to one guy who I see most days playing roulette and not massive stakes either.  He is constantly going crazy because the machine keeps dropping the ball in the number next to the one that he wanted.  The shop staff just don't want to look his way or make eye contact in any shape or form when he is going through these motions.  That said, I wouldn't know how he would react if someone went up to him and asked him if he was ok and his gambling was under control.

A fool and their money are soon parted.

If you protect people from losing on these machines, what's to stop them throwing their money down the drain on something else?

The only way to protect them is to outlaw all betting.

The problem is not the machines, but in the people themselves.
They'll always find a way to get rid of their money no matter what we do.

Dr Crippen I know quite a few people who were moderate (losing) punters who became compulsive gamblers losing many times what they normally lose on these machines and I know I have said this before but it seems to act like the equivalent of turning moderate drinkers in to alcoholics.

If someone decides to self exclude from shop A, then you can be sure they will be gambling in shop B within hours. So whats the point in self excluding?

The mugs that play these machines, assume they are the same as a fruit machine and will pay out eventually. Doesn't work like that.

Don't believe in addictions. If you keep doing your bollox on the roulette, how about stopping? The reason they carry on is coz they are weak willed, even though they know it will all end in tears.

If you watched the programme or even if you haven't, you should know that some peoples brain's are wired differently.
It's not just a matter of 'just stopping' ffs

They machines are designed to hook those people, evil things. There's plenty solutions for the government to take, restricted the machines to casinos or limiting the stakes on them in lbos but as always, money and greed will win unfortunately.

bit hard on the bookies when the bloke topped himself after losing 1k in a casino could have spent more time in the casino,s than on fbot

also the expert complaining about showing past numbers is misleading is no different to nick luck for example saying horse 23 has won the 1st 3 races on a card

It gets boring reading posters keep saying that if no machines,no restrictions,as they are clearly nothing to do with each other.[/b]


I haven't seen everyone saying if they are gone restrictions will be gone along with them, but feel free to point them all out. I have seen plenty saying get rid of them/lower stakes though, and then if the books want to make money and stay open they would then have to start taking bets. Whether or not that would be to a certain takeout to everyone I don't know but they maybe forced to do something or close.

But to say they are "clearly nothing to do with eachother" is complete nonsense imo. Before the machines were in the shops earning guaranteed income the books made plenty of money taking bets and making a book - you know what they are meant to do. Now they don't want to take bets on Racing at all, and plenty of punters are banned or restricted for betting other sports. They have no decent traders or compilers anymore, so they just get rid of punters so they can run arcades with guaranteed income revenue. To say they are not linked is insane imo.

The machines are wrong - ive never used them myself because i know they're a piece of **** which allows bookies to guarantee a profit - anything that guarantees someone a profit is a scam in my book.

They should be banned from all high streets.

so you,d close all casino,s and blow las vegas up,stop the lottery

So bookmakers can refuse to take a bet when they think you have a chance of winning but can allow thousands to be poured into these machines and are guaranteed a profit - sounds very fair to me. the real question is how are they allowed to get away with it ?

Yet still no response as to why companies that have ZERO shops,so zero machines, still restrict.It is understandable that some posters have differing views,but please don't distort the facts.
Also ,it must be accepted that the growth of online business has resulted in stricter controls too.Things have changed greatly over the years,that is how it is.
A major gripe appears to be that the machines have to show a profit,as they can't be beaten long term,so there is no risk involved.On the plus side the government is getting 25% tax from possible dodgy money lost on the machines.

i,m confused i dont get this a buisness any buisness is not allowed to make money if it doesnt risk losing it,
there must be millions of buisness,s out there that make guarenteed returns

including arbers

Yet still no response as to why companies that have ZERO shops,so zero machines, still restrict

* still restrict sports bets

"but please feel free to play our bingo or roulette without restrictions"

is that what you mean unbiased ?

They'd be at a competitive disadvantage if they were the only non restricting b/maker unbiased. I'm far from saying that is the only or even main reason! Broadly they do it because they can.

I don't believe anyone expects them to operate without restrictions (such would be commercial suicide); rather the issue is that it's not an unrealistic expectation (or rather it shouldn't be) to expect a b/m offering a price to have to lay that to at least a realistic amount to anyone who seeks to bet at the offered price. The current position is arguably creating a situation where gambling is not conducted in a fair and transparent way. How can it be fair to deny a customer a bet at an offered price only to then accept the same bet to someone else?

Also I strongly suspect that the "primary purpose" requirement of the Gambling Act that LBO are for the taking of sports/horse racing bets is being breached. It is common ground that over 50% of profits are via FOBTs. Lord knows what proportion of stakes they represent. How can such a situation not be in conflict with that requirement?

The horse racing regulators supported the introduction of these machines. Those involved should hang their heads in shame.

people say they are no risks involved with fobt,s but like all other buisness,s they carry overheads so if everyone stopped using them they,d lose money on them,its the users at fault they have no idea or care even less how much bookies make out of them and would use them whatever amount was returned ,just like lottery and scratch cards

Thanks for the sensible response parispike.My beef is the continual comparison with the must win machines,and the take-a-risk sports,and racing bets,as they are a totally separate issue.Insistance of having to lay to lose a given amount,again is a separate issue from the machines.Many punters get restricted by operators that have ZERO shops,but still believe,or perhaps they don't really,but don't want to admit it,that only LBOs restrict,as they have the machines to rely on.The refusal to accept that trading methods have changed a great deal,and not for the better,shows a lack of understanding of modern day business.
pablo-fanque,I am sure you are aware of what I meant.
1st time,there lies the problem,it is frowned on that they make big profits without risk,just like casinos!!I have gambled all my life,but draw the line on games on machines,and in casinos,no interest whatsoever.Give me a good novice hurdle anyday!

Yet still no response as to why companies that have ZERO shops,so zero machines, still restrict.

I agree with parispike - I don't believe anyone expects them to operate without restrictions (such would be commercial suicide); rather the issue is that it's not an unrealistic expectation (or rather it shouldn't be) to expect a b/m offering a price to have to lay that to at least a realistic amount to anyone who seeks to bet at the offered price. The current position is arguably creating a situation where gambling is not conducted in a fair and transparent way. How can it be fair to deny a customer a bet at an offered price only to then accept the same bet to someone else?


Also seeing as the shops are restricting numerous customers after just a handful of bets, WHY are there more shops with every firm than 7 years ago - when obviously over the counter business was higher? It proves the point they are just exploiting the vulnerable, and couldn't give a toss about all this "responsible gambling" nonsense and all they want are machines and no betting.

Years ago they would play the market and make fortunes by making a book, now they don't want to play the market just the person and are making nowhere near what they were making. To say that the machines have nothing to do with restrictions is wrong in my opinion, and firms with no shops probably rely on their online casinos/poker/bingo.

how could a casino owner be allowed to take the moral high ground when the women doing the show whose husband committed suicide did so after losing a grand in a casino,but she seemed quite happy to suck up to casinos, all rather confusing

you want the government to ban the fobts ? 

remind me how many billion the government makes from the fobts ...

I think it's a related issue unbiased in the sense that the cash cow FOBTs (and their growth over the last 15 years) have effectively obviated the need for off course bookmakers to operate in a "traditional" way.  As a consequence they don't.... The problem will arise when the FOBTs are banned or more likely are severely restricted in stake size, Can only foresee mass LBO closures because they simply won't need, e.g. 4 Badblokes shops in Cheltenham. Currently they do to facilitate 16 FOBTs.....

Will the FOBT trade revert to OTC? Doubt it myself .

Nice to debate with someone who doesn't resort to insults, generalisations and over simplifications! It's a multi-faceted issue imo.

A customer we all know in our shop came in a couple of weeks ago and had 3 bets and took the prices, 2 of them shortened by a point one stayed the same he only staked a monkey and all of the got beat.

within 48 hours we had an email from the trading analysts (glorified new name) to say he is now a red grade as he will be unprofitable for us[:surprised:, so he looses £500 and we he's restricted to a pony.

The money the Government make from them won't be completely lost though, as surely it will be spent elsewhere at another business who will then have to pay tax on it - maybe not at the same rate though.

ronnie - what about the "guarantees" in relation to this customer of which you speak?

Half time in Ch League,so opportunity to reply.It must be accepted that the world of bookmaking has drastically changed.Not sure exactly when it all started to change,but probably with the introduction of exchanges in 2000,and onwards.Bookmakers oncourse don't gamble anymore,they don't have to,just keep the field under exchange prices,and in some cases equal the exchanges on the fav.So they don't need to take chances,the mindset is different.As is the mindset with the firms,we are in a different age.Joe Coral has passed years ago,as has William Hill,Cyril Stein,and lets not forget Freddie Williams and John Banks.
  We are in a different age,many things in life have changed,and yes,not always for the better.No good living in the past though,as that is a sure sign of ageing.

I like the way people on here seem so concerned about problem gamblers, such a caring community.

I wonder how much they would care if they could get their bets on?

Bookmakers are still happy to take large bets on horseracing,but only from
punters that have proven to be long term losers.

That's basically the buisness model----freeze out the shrewdies and take the
mugs for as much as they can.

Bookies laying of decent bets changed with the inception of Betfair. I see people in shops with mobile phones in hand checking B/F for latest odds. For the intelligent punters out there, they can see what is shortening on the exchanges and drifting like a barge, and bet accordingly.

This punter advantage didn't happen in the 'good old days', and most who bet were betting blindly.

The bookmakers know FOBT's are guaranteed profit, so why would they nullify that profit by taking on punters who are now betting with an edge which they never used to have?

What's worse is the mugs that get fed loads and loads of free bets and they think Coral, Hills and Laddies are great.

Wake up guys - if you're getting free bets you're nothing but a MUG of the biggest kind and IT'S TIME TO QUIT!!!

TheGoddess - that cannot be right as Bigmart has taken PP for over 200k profit and he gets free bets all the time......

when the fobts first appeaed my local laddies had 2 attractive young birds, short skirts,big smiles ,outside the shop  on a saturday afternoon offering passers by and once a week footy punters free goes on the fobts , a few weeks later they had £5 vouchers for thew fobts  if you staked £2 or more on a footy bet with the line of have a go you cant lose ! how many poor saps became hooked on the machines is anyones guess ?

Ok,so we have different opinions ,but the third review of the year into fobt gambling is shortly happening in Parliament,so how do you bet on change?
  Remember,it isn't what you WOULD LIKE to see changed,it is what you THINK will be changed.
Whilst the lobby against the machines has increased,so has the tax collected increased.Intersting!!

Spoke to a shop manager yesterday,and his opinion was 4/5 change of some sort,4/5 no change(big overround!)

That's basically the buisness model----freeze out the shrewdies and take the
mugs for as much as they can.

What would you do if it was your business?