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Do his conkers today?
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I remember when he was a very good trainer. Not half as good nowadays.
I remember betting one of his in his early days named Lazy Dynamite which won at 33/1. I had it on the Tote and it paid 100/1 
Still is a very good trainer but they can't do it without the horses.
It was only just over a year ago that he won the King George and his reward for that from the owner was to remove his whole string from the yard.
It was only just over a year ago that he won the King George and his reward for that from the owner was to remove his whole string from the yard.
He does not bet. Very good trainer. Remember HRAC before you start digging him out.
If Francesca was my daughter she'd still be 'avin two baths a day 
Cumani is still a very good trainer who is extremely patient with his horses. I still remember the days of Markofdistinction, Commanche Run, Bairn, Kahyasi, etc. Cumani was also responsible for and ought to be given the credit for the progression of Postponed and a few others who were in his charge last year.
Despite fallen out of favour with the owner of Postponed and principal supporter Cumani has been courteous and dignified towards his former client.
Despite fallen out of favour with the owner of Postponed and principal supporter Cumani has been courteous and dignified towards his former client.
Lost sheik Mohammed,the aga khan and now sheik Mohammed obaida..it could be said that's worse than careless
Sheikh Mohammed - so did HRAC - the Sheikh had intentions of setting up his own
Aga Khan - nothing to do with him - over a drug testing procedure/dispute not in line with other European countries
Odaida - a newcomer to the game who is obnoxious and impatient owner
The above cannot be blamed on Cumani.
Aga Khan - nothing to do with him - over a drug testing procedure/dispute not in line with other European countries
Odaida - a newcomer to the game who is obnoxious and impatient owner
The above cannot be blamed on Cumani.
As regards Obaidah,I'd bet Varian is walking on eggshells when dealing with the arrogant,spoilt c@nt
Obaida looks like a Bond villain. He's hardly a newcomer to the game is he impossible123? Had horses in training for years...
Cumani is well past his sell by date. To stick with the James Bond analogy, losing one major owner is happenstance, losing two is coincidence, losing three is "enemy action"/ incompetence.
Cumani treading the same path as Donald McCain jnr.
Cumani treading the same path as Donald McCain jnr.
Was it ever revealed why Odaida removed his horses?
Apparently Postponed didn't run in the Arc last year as they didn't want to be seen to be running "Luca's horse", but surely there will always be an element of that no matter what the horse achieves for Varian?
Who can say the horse would have achieved what he has if he had been with Varian from the outset? I'm not saying he wouldn't have, but clearly Postponed had been tremendously well nurtured and trained by Cumani and that has enabled the horse to thrive as he has, and perhaps those having a pop at Cumani should remember that!
Apparently Postponed didn't run in the Arc last year as they didn't want to be seen to be running "Luca's horse", but surely there will always be an element of that no matter what the horse achieves for Varian?
Who can say the horse would have achieved what he has if he had been with Varian from the outset? I'm not saying he wouldn't have, but clearly Postponed had been tremendously well nurtured and trained by Cumani and that has enabled the horse to thrive as he has, and perhaps those having a pop at Cumani should remember that!
Plenty of big name trainers like Clive Brittain, Henry Cecil, Guy Harwood/Amanda Perratt, John Gosden, Barry Hills, Michael Jarvis, Mark Johnston, Michael Stoute and Geoff Wragg will have either lost Sheikh Mo's horses or not had any more sent to them once he set up Godolphin, so it wasn't just Luca Cumani who was affected by that decision.
Cumani won the Derby for Sheikh Obaid as far back as 1998 and so he's not really a newcomer to the game and the Aga Khan despite Cumani winning a Derby for him too, also effectively took his horses away from Fulke Johnson Houghton and Stoute over the drugs disqualification of his filly in the Oaks, plus recently decided not to send John Oxx any more yearlings despite the amount of success he has had for him in the past.
No doubt some would have also suggested Henry Cecil was well past his sell by date when he went around 6 years or so without training a group 1 winner and one season only trained about a dozen winners too, until being sent the likes of Frankel, Light Shift, Midday, Nobel Mission, Passage Of Time and Twice Over.
Donald McCain did well to reach 50 winners last season all things considered and his horses have generally been in very good from lately but as with Cumani, any trainer who loses their biggest owner numerically is likely to suffer as a result of that and as for why Sheikh Obaid moved his horses to Roger Varian, I suspect that after playing musical jockeys when his horses were with Cumani, once Andrea Atzeni went to Varian, maybe he wanted him to ride his horses and moving them would make him available to do so more often than not.
Cumani won the Derby for Sheikh Obaid as far back as 1998 and so he's not really a newcomer to the game and the Aga Khan despite Cumani winning a Derby for him too, also effectively took his horses away from Fulke Johnson Houghton and Stoute over the drugs disqualification of his filly in the Oaks, plus recently decided not to send John Oxx any more yearlings despite the amount of success he has had for him in the past.
No doubt some would have also suggested Henry Cecil was well past his sell by date when he went around 6 years or so without training a group 1 winner and one season only trained about a dozen winners too, until being sent the likes of Frankel, Light Shift, Midday, Nobel Mission, Passage Of Time and Twice Over.
Donald McCain did well to reach 50 winners last season all things considered and his horses have generally been in very good from lately but as with Cumani, any trainer who loses their biggest owner numerically is likely to suffer as a result of that and as for why Sheikh Obaid moved his horses to Roger Varian, I suspect that after playing musical jockeys when his horses were with Cumani, once Andrea Atzeni went to Varian, maybe he wanted him to ride his horses and moving them would make him available to do so more often than not.
Unless there is a rapid change of fortune it surely isn't that unfair to label Cumani 'yesterday's man'.
Even with the removals (for which some people who increasingly look for excuses want to lambast the owners) he almost certainly still has a bigger string than many trainers who produce far more winners. Isn't that what training is about, rather than talking about how he used to mop up the Extel 40 years ago?
And he still has the Stud to fall back on. How about buying some horses with the idea of winning races and then seeing if he can make a success of selling them on?
The degree to which he is assumed to have 'made' Postponed is pure guesswork. The fact is the horse has shown improved form since he left Cumani.
Without the globetrotting exploits of Presvis the cupboard has been pretty bare for many years.
I think we all know the press will never ask any difficult questions but how many more years can he realistically go on living off distant memories?
Even with the removals (for which some people who increasingly look for excuses want to lambast the owners) he almost certainly still has a bigger string than many trainers who produce far more winners. Isn't that what training is about, rather than talking about how he used to mop up the Extel 40 years ago?
And he still has the Stud to fall back on. How about buying some horses with the idea of winning races and then seeing if he can make a success of selling them on?
The degree to which he is assumed to have 'made' Postponed is pure guesswork. The fact is the horse has shown improved form since he left Cumani.
Without the globetrotting exploits of Presvis the cupboard has been pretty bare for many years.
I think we all know the press will never ask any difficult questions but how many more years can he realistically go on living off distant memories?
What did John Ferguson say about a trainer and a horse?
He said a good horse will not run faster with a good trainer but a good horse will run slower with a not so good trainer. So, has Postponed run slower when he was with Cumani? I'd say, an emphatic no. Postponed has matured and progressed since last year mainly due to the fact that Cumani had been patient with him and allowed this development and progress to come through. Postponed won the King George under the syewardship of Cymani, did he not? Surely, that's a testament in itself, I'd have thought.
He said a good horse will not run faster with a good trainer but a good horse will run slower with a not so good trainer. So, has Postponed run slower when he was with Cumani? I'd say, an emphatic no. Postponed has matured and progressed since last year mainly due to the fact that Cumani had been patient with him and allowed this development and progress to come through. Postponed won the King George under the syewardship of Cymani, did he not? Surely, that's a testament in itself, I'd have thought.
Must be loads in Newmarket who live in fear of the latest whim of their UAE owner. Probably only Stoute and Gosden are in positions of power.
If I go out today and it rains and I get wet, that's not me making excuses for being wet, it just happens to be the reason for it.
So how Sheikh Mo, the Aga Khan and Sheikh Obaid moving their horses is seen as an excuse for Cumani or anyone is lambasting the owners is beyond me, when it's a fact and reason that setting up Godolphin saw many trainers lose horses, the Aga Khan effectively barred himself and his horses from UK racing due to his filly being disqualified and Sheikh Obaid has previous for launching the toys from the pram too. A certain jockey lost the ride on his horses when Afsare refused to go into the stalls and again it's beyond me how that's the jockey's fault and then the horses did it again later for the then Champion Jockey too!
If Khalid Abdullah had taken Frankel away for Henry Cecil after the St James's Palace Stakes run or Kingman from John Gosden after the 2,000gns, would people have been querying the degree to which they were assumed to have 'made' those two horses as pure guesswork and suggesting the fact was the horses has shown improved form since having left? Maybe they did show improved form but had they have moved we could quite reasonably have asked how does anyone know they also wouldn't have shown that same improved form had they not moved? Yet we don't need to ask now do we?
It's not as if Postponed was just a Listed race winner under Cumani and then Varian improved it to Group level, the horse had already won a few Group races and up to Gr1 and do you really think it wouldn't have won the Coronation Cup this season if still with Cumani?
Just out of interest too, can we use the same logic when saying Varian improved Postponed to say Cumani improved Starcraft or Mount Athos then?
So how Sheikh Mo, the Aga Khan and Sheikh Obaid moving their horses is seen as an excuse for Cumani or anyone is lambasting the owners is beyond me, when it's a fact and reason that setting up Godolphin saw many trainers lose horses, the Aga Khan effectively barred himself and his horses from UK racing due to his filly being disqualified and Sheikh Obaid has previous for launching the toys from the pram too. A certain jockey lost the ride on his horses when Afsare refused to go into the stalls and again it's beyond me how that's the jockey's fault and then the horses did it again later for the then Champion Jockey too!
If Khalid Abdullah had taken Frankel away for Henry Cecil after the St James's Palace Stakes run or Kingman from John Gosden after the 2,000gns, would people have been querying the degree to which they were assumed to have 'made' those two horses as pure guesswork and suggesting the fact was the horses has shown improved form since having left? Maybe they did show improved form but had they have moved we could quite reasonably have asked how does anyone know they also wouldn't have shown that same improved form had they not moved? Yet we don't need to ask now do we?
It's not as if Postponed was just a Listed race winner under Cumani and then Varian improved it to Group level, the horse had already won a few Group races and up to Gr1 and do you really think it wouldn't have won the Coronation Cup this season if still with Cumani?
Just out of interest too, can we use the same logic when saying Varian improved Postponed to say Cumani improved Starcraft or Mount Athos then?
Cumani bought a handicapper called Alkaased from Stoutey for around 45,000 gns and turned it into a Japan Cup winner!
".....Postponed had been tremendously well nurtured and trained by Cumani and that has enabled the horse to thrive as he has, and perhaps those having a pop at Cumani should remember that !"
Exactly.
Exactly.
Trainers like Bolger and Gosden with their breeding businesses are set-up and little influenced by the patronage of the 'oil' money owners; the likes of Cumani and Stoute have achieved and surpassed their aims, and do not care a hoot if the 'oil' money are no longer in their satchels as they are near retirement with their accolades achieved and integrity intact.
The contributors here who had been following horse racing since the late 70's would appreciate the achievements of the above mentioned trainers over the past number of decades no matter what.
The contributors here who had been following horse racing since the late 70's would appreciate the achievements of the above mentioned trainers over the past number of decades no matter what.
He always has been an underachiever. His horses are overbet and overrated.
Well then he must be a 100+ group race winning underachiever, including 2 Derby wins, a St Leger, Irish Derby, Irish 1000, Irish 2000, Irish Champion Stakes and winner of several Group 1 or Grade 1 races in Canada, Dubai, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Italy, Singapore and the US, including races like the:
Canadian International Stakes, E. P. Taylor Stakes (x2), Dubai Duty Free, Hong Kong Cup, HK's Queen Elizabeth II Cup, Italian Derby, Italian Oaks (x2), Japan Cup, Arlington Million and Breeders's Cup mile and has had success with horses like:
Alkaased, Barathea, Commanche Run, Ensconse, Falbrav, Free Guest, Gossamer, High-Rise, Kahyasi, Kissogram, Legal Case, Markofdistinction, Presvis, Second Set, Then Again and Tolomeo, as well as Group race success in Australia and going close a number of times to winning the Melbourne Cup. He's also seen his former assistants like John Berry, Marco Botti, Jonathan Portman, David Simcock, James Toller and Chris Wall all set up as trainers themselves and that's after he himself was assistant to Henry Cecil before going it alone.
You can also add in winning some of the most competitive top handicap races like the Ebor several times too.
Canadian International Stakes, E. P. Taylor Stakes (x2), Dubai Duty Free, Hong Kong Cup, HK's Queen Elizabeth II Cup, Italian Derby, Italian Oaks (x2), Japan Cup, Arlington Million and Breeders's Cup mile and has had success with horses like:
Alkaased, Barathea, Commanche Run, Ensconse, Falbrav, Free Guest, Gossamer, High-Rise, Kahyasi, Kissogram, Legal Case, Markofdistinction, Presvis, Second Set, Then Again and Tolomeo, as well as Group race success in Australia and going close a number of times to winning the Melbourne Cup. He's also seen his former assistants like John Berry, Marco Botti, Jonathan Portman, David Simcock, James Toller and Chris Wall all set up as trainers themselves and that's after he himself was assistant to Henry Cecil before going it alone.
You can also add in winning some of the most competitive top handicap races like the Ebor several times too.
He has been training since 1976, so that is just over 2 group winners a year. His volume of horses and quality of owner, imo makes this nothing out of the ordinary.
How many group winners have his peers, Stoute and Cecil had during the same period?
its called the law of sod but pinstripe in the last at kempton today could give our man a winner
I think it is not a fair comparison with Cecil or Stoute as I believe Cumani did not have the patronage of Sheikh Mohammed, Khalid Abdullah, Stavros Niarchos, Daniel Widenstein, Howard de Walden, Lord Weinstock or Hamdan Al Maktoum, etc, either which accounted for a large majority of the winners for Cecil and Stoute.
Luca is lacking the firepower of old after Obaid Al Maktoum took all his horses away from him. Postponed was being lined up for the Arc last year by Luca & imho would have pushed Golden Horn very hard for the win on his favoured good ground.
Unfathomable why he would remove all his horses that were being so meticulously nurtured by Luca - btw, Varian hasn't done anything of note with any of the ex-Obaid horses this year. And Postponed would have been winning G1s with Luca this year. To say he is over-rated as a trainer and/or over the hill is absurd imho.
Unfathomable why he would remove all his horses that were being so meticulously nurtured by Luca - btw, Varian hasn't done anything of note with any of the ex-Obaid horses this year. And Postponed would have been winning G1s with Luca this year. To say he is over-rated as a trainer and/or over the hill is absurd imho.
I think most of them had horses with Luca impossible. As well as a string of other top owners.
Swardean
I beg to differ, but even if they did Cumani would not have 1st call on any of their purchases/yearlings.
I beg to differ, but even if they did Cumani would not have 1st call on any of their purchases/yearlings.
I think it was Giles Bravery who was asked what his ambitions were when he started training in the late 80s
He replied, 'To have as many horses as Luca Cumani, and train as many winners as Henry Cecil.
He replied, 'To have as many horses as Luca Cumani, and train as many winners as Henry Cecil.
Stuart Williams ,D. O'Meara and Mick Appleby he ain't.
He is a much better businessman than most of his peers, and his hype is first class.
Surprised that no one mentioned PAMONA in the list of horses he has trained
He is a much better businessman than most of his peers, and his hype is first class.
Surprised that no one mentioned PAMONA in the list of horses he has trained
From the list of owners named above, I can remember Sheikh Mohammed having horses with Luca Cumani and those included:
Barathea - winning the Breeders' Cup Mile, Irish 2000gns and Queen Anne at Royal Ascot,
Ensconse - the Irish 1000gns, Inner City the Mill Reef Stakes at Newmarket,
Red Slippers - the Sun Chariot at Newmarket,
Shamshir - the Gr1 Fillies Mile at Ascot,
Shaima - the Long Island Handicap at Belmont in '91, worth around £40k to the winner 25 years ago,
Saxon Maid - the November Handicap at Donny, Fred Archer at Newmarket and the Silver Cup at York,
Tatami - the Horris Hill at Newbury,
Plus for Lord Weinstock he had a few, the best probably being Bonny Scot who won the Zetland as a 2YO, then the Gordon Stakes at Goodwood and the Great Voltigeur at York at 3. I don't remember Cumani ever having any for the likes of Khalid Abdullah or Hamdan Al Maktoum though.
Barathea - winning the Breeders' Cup Mile, Irish 2000gns and Queen Anne at Royal Ascot,
Ensconse - the Irish 1000gns, Inner City the Mill Reef Stakes at Newmarket,
Red Slippers - the Sun Chariot at Newmarket,
Shamshir - the Gr1 Fillies Mile at Ascot,
Shaima - the Long Island Handicap at Belmont in '91, worth around £40k to the winner 25 years ago,
Saxon Maid - the November Handicap at Donny, Fred Archer at Newmarket and the Silver Cup at York,
Tatami - the Horris Hill at Newbury,
Plus for Lord Weinstock he had a few, the best probably being Bonny Scot who won the Zetland as a 2YO, then the Gordon Stakes at Goodwood and the Great Voltigeur at York at 3. I don't remember Cumani ever having any for the likes of Khalid Abdullah or Hamdan Al Maktoum though.
Cumani did indeed train Pamona and the Highclere syndicate that owns her took the decision to transfer her to be trained by Beckett and achieved instant results with a listed win at York. The decision to switch trainers was made for a number of reasons but one of them was frustration with Cumani.
I think with the Aga and Sheikh Mo he got the hand me downs who occasionally bloomed. He can train but maybe an Italian stubborn streak means it has to be on his terms. Only room for one Boss in an operation. Earlier someone listed the pupil trainers but Frankie,JPS,Fortune and Royston know how to win, not forgetting Kirsty who was uber talented. Adding Darryl,Jean Pierre let alone Felon muddies the waters but I wouldn't lay his personal wagers to mark a card,he has lost interest to a degree and his children are moving onwards and upwards. The Stud is a boon for the pair of them and tbh walking up and down Bayswater Rd pinhooking future artists of repute is probably more satisfying as a married man financially and fulfilling than training a 2 year old to win £4K around Leicester,Nottingham or Yarmouth imo. He made his mark,he may come again but does he want to? He loved the Gerald Leigh connection and I'm sure he learned more than he forgot from Gerald,he learned the training game inside out and is probably at a point where his job isn't everything or fulfilling but he has made the game pay. And that chaps is what life and work is all about.
Pamona won at York - a muddling track which consistently throws up rogue results, then got stuffed at Goodwood. Can hardly say Beckett has worked his magic on her. A change of scenery probably helped. People were writing similar stuff about HRAC before Frankel came along. Fact is, Luca nurtured Postponed into the great horse he is & Varian hasn't achieved much with all the horses he has been sent bar Postponed.
Put it another way which are the horses that Cumani achieved more with than Varian? I can't think of any.
Banksea was seemingly one of his better and more progressive horses. Ran away with the jockey at Newmarket and then it appeared no lessons were learnt as the horse did exactly the same thing at Goodwood. Two totally wasted runs. Are we just saying the horse has suddenly become unrideable?
Beautiful Morning, possibly the best horse in the yard (and not exactly cheap at 650,000) should have won first time at Newbury. She then held entries in both the Ribblesdale and Oaks but it was only weeks later that the trainer revealed that she had a problem immediately after Newbury. The trainer would have known about those entries but revealed nothing until bookmakers had pocketed any ante-post money. A case of the 'old school' trainer showing a complete disregard for punters. Doesn't seem to tally very well with a daughter who presumably will be trying her best to open the sport up to the public.
Banksea was seemingly one of his better and more progressive horses. Ran away with the jockey at Newmarket and then it appeared no lessons were learnt as the horse did exactly the same thing at Goodwood. Two totally wasted runs. Are we just saying the horse has suddenly become unrideable?
Beautiful Morning, possibly the best horse in the yard (and not exactly cheap at 650,000) should have won first time at Newbury. She then held entries in both the Ribblesdale and Oaks but it was only weeks later that the trainer revealed that she had a problem immediately after Newbury. The trainer would have known about those entries but revealed nothing until bookmakers had pocketed any ante-post money. A case of the 'old school' trainer showing a complete disregard for punters. Doesn't seem to tally very well with a daughter who presumably will be trying her best to open the sport up to the public.
Mount Logan, King Bolete, Ajman Bridge, White Lake - all achieved much more under Luca's care than they have done with Varian. Postponed won the KG on soft ground when he is best on a fast surface - that was some achievement too. Same charge was being made against Stoute last year. Having followed Flat racing for over 30 years, Cumani, Stoute, Cecil are all masters of their craft imho.
Johnnyrant...
Love the idea that York is a rogue track in comparison to Goodwood. I would say Pamona's improvement at York had more to do with the recognition she wanted a step up in trip, hardly rocket science, I agree ... But seemingly beyond Luca's capability.
Luca has always had a huge string, but never a large haul in terms of winners ... Compared with practically all of his peers. He is an excellent businessman, Certainly much better at that than training horses.
Roger is having a tough year, but he has improved nearly all of his intake from Luca. Imagine what would have happened if RV's horses were healthy?!
Love the idea that York is a rogue track in comparison to Goodwood. I would say Pamona's improvement at York had more to do with the recognition she wanted a step up in trip, hardly rocket science, I agree ... But seemingly beyond Luca's capability.
Luca has always had a huge string, but never a large haul in terms of winners ... Compared with practically all of his peers. He is an excellent businessman, Certainly much better at that than training horses.
Roger is having a tough year, but he has improved nearly all of his intake from Luca. Imagine what would have happened if RV's horses were healthy?!
He hasn't got a huge string now. York is a rogue track. Bookies love it. They have actually ruined the track which used to be among the fairest around back in the day. I have nothing against Varian; just don't agree with the notion Luca is an over-rated trainer.
Merely saying Varian has improved all of his intake from Cumani doesn't actually make it true and even it it did, Cumani takes things slowly and gradually builds their profile and often his runners show better form with age and conditions they they might not have immediately had when he first starts them off.
If another trainer then inherits those horse and has a level of success with them, what's to say Cumani would not have had the same if he still had them? To use another sporting analogy, that's a bit like one footballer picking the ball up deep in his own half, building momentum when going on a long run with the ball, gets into the penalty area and has his legs taken from him and then has to watch another player score the penalty and get all of the plaudits? How do we knew he wouldn't have scored the penalty to? In both scenarios they were denied the chance to finish off their earlier work.
Pamona was trained by Cumani until 2nd July this year, Beckett first ran the horse and it won for him on 9th July so do you really think he got so much improvement from the horse in one week? The fact it ran twice at 2 for Cumani at 7f and then FTO at 3 went over 10f and then 12f the time after that and also had 2 more runs at 12f for Cumani doesn't suggest that the thought of stepping up in trip was beyond his capability.
If another trainer then inherits those horse and has a level of success with them, what's to say Cumani would not have had the same if he still had them? To use another sporting analogy, that's a bit like one footballer picking the ball up deep in his own half, building momentum when going on a long run with the ball, gets into the penalty area and has his legs taken from him and then has to watch another player score the penalty and get all of the plaudits? How do we knew he wouldn't have scored the penalty to? In both scenarios they were denied the chance to finish off their earlier work.
Pamona was trained by Cumani until 2nd July this year, Beckett first ran the horse and it won for him on 9th July so do you really think he got so much improvement from the horse in one week? The fact it ran twice at 2 for Cumani at 7f and then FTO at 3 went over 10f and then 12f the time after that and also had 2 more runs at 12f for Cumani doesn't suggest that the thought of stepping up in trip was beyond his capability.
Ima...Under the rules a horse has to be with a new trainer for two weeks before it can run.... But Beckett must be an effing genius (he isn't) to realise in a fortnight that Luca was running Pamona over the wrong trip for the past year! Think it far more likely that Pamona moved straight after (another dismal effort) in the Notts Oaks.
Perhaps the reason Luca no longer has a huge string (but a large one nevertheless) , is that everyone has finally caught on that he isn't as good as the hype?
Perhaps the reason Luca no longer has a huge string (but a large one nevertheless) , is that everyone has finally caught on that he isn't as good as the hype?
Aug 2, 2016 -- 1:26PM, ima_mazed66 wrote:
From the list of owners named above, I can remember Sheikh Mohammed having horses with Luca Cumani and those included:Barathea - winning the Breeders' Cup Mile, Irish 2000gns and Queen Anne at Royal Ascot,Ensconse - the Irish 1000gns, Inner City the Mill Reef Stakes at Newmarket, Red Slippers - the Sun Chariot at Newmarket, Shamshir - the Gr1 Fillies Mile at Ascot, Shaima - the Long Island Handicap at Belmont in '91, worth around £40k to the winner 25 years ago,Saxon Maid - the November Handicap at Donny, Fred Archer at Newmarket and the Silver Cup at York,Tatami - the Horris Hill at Newbury, Plus for Lord Weinstock he had a few, the best probably being Bonny Scot who won the Zetland as a 2YO, then the Gordon Stakes at Goodwood and the Great Voltigeur at York at 3. I don't remember Cumani ever having any for the likes of Khalid Abdullah or Hamdan Al Maktoum though.
Bairn I believe was Sheikh Mohammed Cumani horse that finished 2nd to Shadeed in 2000 Guineas in mid 80's, Carson rode it, Piggot was on Shadeed....another Sheik Mo horse that Cumani had was much touted for a Derby in mid 80's Pirate Army but then it went wrong. Sheikh Ahmed also had horses with Cumani as Keefah ran well in a Derby in the late 80's.
So many Cumani apologists on here. Who'd have thought it.
Not apologists; merely pointing out what a great trainer he is. Trainers are only ever as good as the horses at their disposal. Luca having a quiet year mainly due to this - he is having to re-build the yard after the Obaid horses taken away.
Cumani may not be as 'enthusiastic' as he once was but that does not mean he's not as good. For instance HRAC with his predicaments on and off the field, he was more than capable when the likes of Frankel and Light Shift came along.
Cumani is as good a trainer as he has always been you don't lose experience and skill with age simply not got the quality horses at the moment
^^^^
But conversely training methods and techniques move on, you have to move with them.
But conversely training methods and techniques move on, you have to move with them.
That's fair enough notenough but on the RP website, when you hover the cursor over the trainer of Pamona it states the horse was with Cumani until 2nd July and so I was going by that.
Do we know for sure it was Beckett and not Cumani who entered it at 14f for the first time anyway? Maybe the York race was the horse's intended target under Cumani regardless but as I said above, Cumani had already stepped the horse up in trip and ran 3 times for him at 12f, having started out at 7f.
You don't win 2 Gr1s including the KG and also an Arc trial like the Prix Foy as recently as last season as Cumani did if you don't know how to train.
Do we know for sure it was Beckett and not Cumani who entered it at 14f for the first time anyway? Maybe the York race was the horse's intended target under Cumani regardless but as I said above, Cumani had already stepped the horse up in trip and ran 3 times for him at 12f, having started out at 7f.
You don't win 2 Gr1s including the KG and also an Arc trial like the Prix Foy as recently as last season as Cumani did if you don't know how to train.
I think the transfer dates in the RP only show when that horse was first declared for new connections (trainer/owner)
Swardean. I think that is correct and that it also applies to ownership. I remember hearing they do it that way so that the database maintenance can be partly automated. It would need an army of people to track and update every change of stable and owner for every horse. Whereas they just run the declarations list which they obviously use for other things against their database and simply update every change.
Jaysus Ima... Writing the same thing over and over again doesn't make you correct .
Pamona ran and won over 7f as a 2yo ffs . Every time Luca ran her over 12f her next start was over 10f... Ribblesdale to Lyric ...Daisy Warwick to Notts Oaks. That alone makes it clear tthat he had no intention of stepping her up.
She moves and runs far and away her best figure next start, over half a mile further than her previous start.
I think that if you ask any trainer in the land what their worst nightmare is, it is the above scenario...because it indicates a failure to know your horse (at best) .
Believe me he will be having sleepless nights over it, but being Luca he won't admit to having made any kind of mistake.
I think he is a very ordinary trainer, but because he was rich to start with he could afford to be more patient than practically all his peers, and occasionally that paid off.
His winners to horses in training ratio has always been dire.
Pamona ran and won over 7f as a 2yo ffs . Every time Luca ran her over 12f her next start was over 10f... Ribblesdale to Lyric ...Daisy Warwick to Notts Oaks. That alone makes it clear tthat he had no intention of stepping her up.
She moves and runs far and away her best figure next start, over half a mile further than her previous start.
I think that if you ask any trainer in the land what their worst nightmare is, it is the above scenario...because it indicates a failure to know your horse (at best) .
Believe me he will be having sleepless nights over it, but being Luca he won't admit to having made any kind of mistake.
I think he is a very ordinary trainer, but because he was rich to start with he could afford to be more patient than practically all his peers, and occasionally that paid off.
His winners to horses in training ratio has always been dire.
Read my earlier post. The owners of Pamona moved her because they weren't happy with Cumani's handling of her.
notenough - member since 2007 - 236 posts - As my grandad would have said you've been keeping your light under a bushel
.
Are you sure that was Giles Bravery who made that comment (I will ask him when I see him next) or indeed anyone??? Did you make this story up? Of course during that period Cumani did not have as many horses as Henry, about 20/25% less depending on how late in the decade you go. Of course given this Henry had more winners but his winner numbers were deteriorating and Cumani's winner numbers were increasing (24% from 88 to 89).
I am no apologist for Cumani, nor do I hold him up as a great trainer vs Sir Henry, but invented and contrived bvllshit needs challenging. Evening all.
. Are you sure that was Giles Bravery who made that comment (I will ask him when I see him next) or indeed anyone??? Did you make this story up? Of course during that period Cumani did not have as many horses as Henry, about 20/25% less depending on how late in the decade you go. Of course given this Henry had more winners but his winner numbers were deteriorating and Cumani's winner numbers were increasing (24% from 88 to 89).
I am no apologist for Cumani, nor do I hold him up as a great trainer vs Sir Henry, but invented and contrived bvllshit needs challenging. Evening all.
Lots of Cumani fans on here getting worked up over precious little from where I sit.
Those who are critical are essentially saying either that he's overrated or he's in decline. Some are saying both. The first observation is a matter of opinion and the second is a statistical fact.
Plenty of top trainers keep going, arguably for too long - Ryan Price, Peter Walwyn and Dick Hern to name 3 past "legends" and more recently John Dunlop, Clive Brittain, Barry Hills and Paul Cole.
Simply because an opinion doesn't accord with somebody else's doesn't in and of itself render the original opinion invalid.
Those who are critical are essentially saying either that he's overrated or he's in decline. Some are saying both. The first observation is a matter of opinion and the second is a statistical fact.
Plenty of top trainers keep going, arguably for too long - Ryan Price, Peter Walwyn and Dick Hern to name 3 past "legends" and more recently John Dunlop, Clive Brittain, Barry Hills and Paul Cole.
Simply because an opinion doesn't accord with somebody else's doesn't in and of itself render the original opinion invalid.
You could have written the same about HRAC during the lean years, and a lot of people were. So you are barking up the wrong tree imho.
Subjectivity and substance are two different things. One is neither right or wrong, the other is either right or wrong.
When any yard loses over a third of its horses that inevitably leads to a decline. No subjectivity required to form that opinion. If Luca is given the firepower he will be winning G1s again. Form is temporary; class is permanent.
If Cumani's still got it why is he losing so many of his better horses? Can the owners responsible all be wrong?
Like it or not, with the odd exception, Cumani has become a trainer of handicappers in recent years.
Like it or not, with the odd exception, Cumani has become a trainer of handicappers in recent years.
johnnyrant, fascinating that you bring up Gp 1s.
Luca didn't train a Group 1 winner in this country between 2005 (StarCraft) and 2015 (Postponed)... a pretty damning statistic given the stock he was getting in that period.
Ironically, given your defence of him in light of losing a chunk of his string..Of the domestic Group 1 winners he trained post High Rise, only Gossamer was trained at Bedford Lodge throughout. StarCraft and Falbrav (Alkaased too) all came to him as Horses In Training.
Giles Bravery definitely said his ambition was to train as many horses as Luca, but as many winners as Henry.
Don't be fooled by the number of horses Luca ran throughout his recent career... he housed many more than he ran.
Luca didn't train a Group 1 winner in this country between 2005 (StarCraft) and 2015 (Postponed)... a pretty damning statistic given the stock he was getting in that period.
Ironically, given your defence of him in light of losing a chunk of his string..Of the domestic Group 1 winners he trained post High Rise, only Gossamer was trained at Bedford Lodge throughout. StarCraft and Falbrav (Alkaased too) all came to him as Horses In Training.
Giles Bravery definitely said his ambition was to train as many horses as Luca, but as many winners as Henry.
Don't be fooled by the number of horses Luca ran throughout his recent career... he housed many more than he ran.
An excellent but somewhat pointless thread! ( Who is going to take any heed?), but I'm grateful to all contributors for the interesting points.
Personally, I tried to find an angle with Cumani runners for years and years, and, mostly failed.
On this thread, I felt Cash is King and blackbarn made very good points. They weren't alone.
Finally, may I ask notenough and anybody else about that "class is permanent" adage?
I heard it for years, especially in connection with racing, but
what the hell does it really mean, please?
Do folks, who understand it and believe it, think that Bobby Charlton would have been brilliant at the recent soccer tournament in place of , say, Wayne Rooney?
I think there may come a time when most of us have to admit to the negative effects, resulting from the passage of time.
Any views?
Personally, I tried to find an angle with Cumani runners for years and years, and, mostly failed.
On this thread, I felt Cash is King and blackbarn made very good points. They weren't alone.
Finally, may I ask notenough and anybody else about that "class is permanent" adage?
I heard it for years, especially in connection with racing, but
what the hell does it really mean, please?
Do folks, who understand it and believe it, think that Bobby Charlton would have been brilliant at the recent soccer tournament in place of , say, Wayne Rooney?
I think there may come a time when most of us have to admit to the negative effects, resulting from the passage of time.
Any views?
It means that Cumani is a class act as a trainer who has trained classic winners, G1 winners all around the world & the fact his yard is in the doldrums atm is not a reflection of his dwindling powers. No yard could cope with such a mass exodus.
Comparing a Horse trainer to a footballer is laughable. It would make more sense to compare a Horse trainer to a Football manager. Both can be at the top of the game for many years, but times move on and so does the game. Success at the top can become harder to come by, but that doesn't mean they still don't have something to offer at the right level. Hence class is permanent.
You have to ask why there has been a mass exodus..as I understand it some of it has been self inflicted
"An excellent but pointless thread".
Praise indeed. 99.999% of threads are both pointless and lack excellence. Doesn't matter. They allow posters to vent their feelings safe in the knowledge that it won't change anything and next to no-one cares what their feelings are.
Praise indeed. 99.999% of threads are both pointless and lack excellence. Doesn't matter. They allow posters to vent their feelings safe in the knowledge that it won't change anything and next to no-one cares what their feelings are.
Some fair points, but why do even soccer managers or prime ministers step down eventually or get the elbow? Few stay at the top of anything forever, imo.
I'm not sure how "class" can be measured in horse trainers. Most of them seem to do
a) very little themselves
b) the same old thing they always did. Same as my punting: sometimes it works ; sometimes it doesn't.
I think the major problem for Luca is lack of owners. Why that is, I do not know.
I'm not sure how "class" can be measured in horse trainers. Most of them seem to do
a) very little themselves
b) the same old thing they always did. Same as my punting: sometimes it works ; sometimes it doesn't.
I think the major problem for Luca is lack of owners. Why that is, I do not know.
I think the major problem is a shortage of winners. How is that going to attract owners? Why potentially pay six figures for a pedigree, have a couple of quiet runs as a two-year-old and then hopefully nick a maiden the following season. That's if you are lucky. I imagine despite the lack of success he still charges top dollar.
I can't believe this thread is still going strong. Some people are very slow on the uptake.
Cumani is a has-been. I suspect he always was.
Cumani is a has-been. I suspect he always was.
Always thought he were a dead ringer for the late Bob Monkhouse
notenough 05 Aug 16 21:36
Jaysus Ima... Writing the same thing over and over again doesn't make you correct.....
I'm aware that Cumani ran the horse at 7f as a 2YO but then when he runs her at 3 at distances between 10f-12f then how does that make my statement any less valid that he stepped the horse up in trip?
Plenty of horses switch between 10f and 12f as 3YOs and I don't particularly think running a Duke Of Marmalade filly at between 10f-12f is a particularly usual thing to do considering the sire was a 10f-12f horse himself. York is also an easy and flat course compared to Goodwood with its uphill sections and Pamona was getting 5lbs from every other runner at York when on 9st 1lb, yet was off levels at Goodwood on 9st 6lbs and ran like a non-stayer there, so maybe it wasn't actually the trip that saw her win at York and other factors played a part.
Cash Is King 07 Aug 16 21:06
I can't believe this thread is still going strong. Some people are very slow on the uptake.
Cumani is a has-been. I suspect he always was.
A has been who won the King George and Prix Foy last season and probably would have gone close in the Arc too if allowed to run. Add to that there's no real reason why the horse would not have also won the Sheema race in Dubai and Corporation Cup at Epsom if still with Cumani and he's also won a couple of Group races with other horses this season too.
And when suspecting he always was a has been, was this before or after his 2 Derby wins?
Jaysus Ima... Writing the same thing over and over again doesn't make you correct.....
I'm aware that Cumani ran the horse at 7f as a 2YO but then when he runs her at 3 at distances between 10f-12f then how does that make my statement any less valid that he stepped the horse up in trip?
Plenty of horses switch between 10f and 12f as 3YOs and I don't particularly think running a Duke Of Marmalade filly at between 10f-12f is a particularly usual thing to do considering the sire was a 10f-12f horse himself. York is also an easy and flat course compared to Goodwood with its uphill sections and Pamona was getting 5lbs from every other runner at York when on 9st 1lb, yet was off levels at Goodwood on 9st 6lbs and ran like a non-stayer there, so maybe it wasn't actually the trip that saw her win at York and other factors played a part.
Cash Is King 07 Aug 16 21:06
I can't believe this thread is still going strong. Some people are very slow on the uptake.
Cumani is a has-been. I suspect he always was.
A has been who won the King George and Prix Foy last season and probably would have gone close in the Arc too if allowed to run. Add to that there's no real reason why the horse would not have also won the Sheema race in Dubai and Corporation Cup at Epsom if still with Cumani and he's also won a couple of Group races with other horses this season too.
And when suspecting he always was a has been, was this before or after his 2 Derby wins?
ima...there are very few 2yo maidens over 10f,none over 12f, and none of either when she made her debut.
All of Luca's fan club here have ignored the fact that he trained no Group 1 winner in UK between 2005 and 2015. And only one of the (at least) 1200 he was sent as yearlings between High Rise in 1998 and Postponed in 2015 became a Group 1 winner in UK.ie Gossamer.
Presvis was the only one of the other 4 other Group 1 winners in that period that went through Luca's 'system' from a yearling.
So how does that compare favourably to his peers?
All of Luca's fan club here have ignored the fact that he trained no Group 1 winner in UK between 2005 and 2015. And only one of the (at least) 1200 he was sent as yearlings between High Rise in 1998 and Postponed in 2015 became a Group 1 winner in UK.ie Gossamer.
Presvis was the only one of the other 4 other Group 1 winners in that period that went through Luca's 'system' from a yearling.
So how does that compare favourably to his peers?
Cash,
Not a bit of wonder I couldn't get the " Class is Permanent" bit, when ye tell us concisely that
Luca is " a has-been" and a "never was"!
Obviously, I must be a man of little class myself, but, if it means anything, my idea of a good trainer is somebody like D. Cantillon or M. Bradley.
I think I've gleaned all I can from this thread now. Thanks to all to all contributors!
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
Sean Rua - Check my posts again. I've made no reference to "Class is Permanent".
notenough 08 Aug 16 06:47
ima...there are very few 2yo maidens over 10f,none over 12f, and none of either when she made her debut.
Yeah no problem and I'm aware of that but still doesn't make what I said any less valid.
I'm also aware that 2YOs in the very early part of the season can only run at 5f and then after a while can step up to 6f and so on but that wasn't the issue here. The issue was the claim that Cumani seemingly wasn't stepping the filly up in trip when he clearly was. Or that when she stepped up farther in her first run for Ralph Beckett, the implication was that was the only reason for the win. The whys or whatfores with regards to it all are largely irrelevant when Cumani was in fact stepping the horse up in trip.
I think it's also largely irrelevant whether a horse entirely goes through a trainer's system or not too, as if Cumani was such a poor trainer as some are making out then surely when he inherited horses then their form would drop off under his care and suddenly fall by the wayside. If anything though, if he inherits horses from various other trainers and carries on winning with and/or even showing improved form over time with them, then that just further supports my often made point on here that it's far more about the horses than the humans.
Quite ironic too that some are being positive toward Roger Varian inheriting Cumani's horses where they didn't come through the system with Varian but when Cumani inherits one it's seen as a negative, despite the considerable success he has had with inherited horses. Plus if Cumani didn't have any UK Gr1 winners between 2005 and 2015 (which alone is quite a strict criteria to judge success by) then presumably he didn't have the horse to do so.
Like I said though, that criteria alone is quite strict and what if he lost a few UK Gr1s in a tight finish during that period, does that make him a bad trainer? Or how about if he won non-UK Gr1s during that same period, does that not suggest he isn't a bad trainer? What if he won Gr1s in Dubai, France, Hong Kong and Dubai during that time frame?
Plus I'm not trying to be a d1ck here but that stat isn't right anyway and he trained the winner of the QEII Stakes at Newmarket in 2005 but I get the general point being made that he had limited UK Gr1 success during that time, but Henry Cecil went from June 2000 to November 2006 without winning a Gr1 anywhere, let alone just the UK when he just didn't have the horses. Yet if Cecil didn't have a resurgence with horses like Frankel, Midday, Night Shift, Noble Mission, Passage Of Time, Twice Over and so on, then many would have said he went on for too long and labelled him a has-been.
Cash Is King 08 Aug 16 10:43
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
And yet I could have sworn I saw him win the King George last season, as well as another Gr1 in Germany.
ima...there are very few 2yo maidens over 10f,none over 12f, and none of either when she made her debut.
Yeah no problem and I'm aware of that but still doesn't make what I said any less valid.
I'm also aware that 2YOs in the very early part of the season can only run at 5f and then after a while can step up to 6f and so on but that wasn't the issue here. The issue was the claim that Cumani seemingly wasn't stepping the filly up in trip when he clearly was. Or that when she stepped up farther in her first run for Ralph Beckett, the implication was that was the only reason for the win. The whys or whatfores with regards to it all are largely irrelevant when Cumani was in fact stepping the horse up in trip.
I think it's also largely irrelevant whether a horse entirely goes through a trainer's system or not too, as if Cumani was such a poor trainer as some are making out then surely when he inherited horses then their form would drop off under his care and suddenly fall by the wayside. If anything though, if he inherits horses from various other trainers and carries on winning with and/or even showing improved form over time with them, then that just further supports my often made point on here that it's far more about the horses than the humans.
Quite ironic too that some are being positive toward Roger Varian inheriting Cumani's horses where they didn't come through the system with Varian but when Cumani inherits one it's seen as a negative, despite the considerable success he has had with inherited horses. Plus if Cumani didn't have any UK Gr1 winners between 2005 and 2015 (which alone is quite a strict criteria to judge success by) then presumably he didn't have the horse to do so.
Like I said though, that criteria alone is quite strict and what if he lost a few UK Gr1s in a tight finish during that period, does that make him a bad trainer? Or how about if he won non-UK Gr1s during that same period, does that not suggest he isn't a bad trainer? What if he won Gr1s in Dubai, France, Hong Kong and Dubai during that time frame?
Plus I'm not trying to be a d1ck here but that stat isn't right anyway and he trained the winner of the QEII Stakes at Newmarket in 2005 but I get the general point being made that he had limited UK Gr1 success during that time, but Henry Cecil went from June 2000 to November 2006 without winning a Gr1 anywhere, let alone just the UK when he just didn't have the horses. Yet if Cecil didn't have a resurgence with horses like Frankel, Midday, Night Shift, Noble Mission, Passage Of Time, Twice Over and so on, then many would have said he went on for too long and labelled him a has-been.
Cash Is King 08 Aug 16 10:43
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
And yet I could have sworn I saw him win the King George last season, as well as another Gr1 in Germany.
Thanks, Cash.
What ye said is correct, and I didn't think for one second that ye were the one who thought " class was permanent".
Good luck to all!
What ye said is correct, and I didn't think for one second that ye were the one who thought " class was permanent".
Good luck to all!
The problem is that he seems to train nearly everything the way he did Fish N Chips. If he has a horse which on price tag and pedigree should be rated 100, his first thought seems to be, how can I get it rated 60 and win that same Carlisle handicap I did with Fish N Chips? Rather than how can I get it rated 120 and make a stallion of it?
Ian Balding was another like that: he trained Mill Reef and Selkirk, the same way Cumani trained Derby winners. Yet the abiding memory of an IA Balding horse was fiddling about in mid div before being punted at Windsor on a Monday evening.
Having said that, just about every trainer (and punter) declines from their peak before being forced out of their game. It must be dreadfully hard to tell whether you're just having a bad run of luck or whether others have simply become better than you or have better ammunition and you'll never be able to turn it around.
Who knows how even Cecil's career would have panned out, if he hadn't been taken from us prematurely? Pipe got out very near the top, but even then, it was the day he lost his title that he announced his retirement.
Ian Balding was another like that: he trained Mill Reef and Selkirk, the same way Cumani trained Derby winners. Yet the abiding memory of an IA Balding horse was fiddling about in mid div before being punted at Windsor on a Monday evening.
Having said that, just about every trainer (and punter) declines from their peak before being forced out of their game. It must be dreadfully hard to tell whether you're just having a bad run of luck or whether others have simply become better than you or have better ammunition and you'll never be able to turn it around.
Who knows how even Cecil's career would have panned out, if he hadn't been taken from us prematurely? Pipe got out very near the top, but even then, it was the day he lost his title that he announced his retirement.
Ima ... We have been through this... But you have chosen not to properly read what I have written... As shown by your comment about Starcraft winning the QE11 in 05.
It is very hard to have a discussion with you if you won't grasp the facts. If you need help the Racing Post website will .
..Going to bed feeling like Basil Fawlty dealing with Manuel. I had forgotten why I engage on here so rarely.
It is very hard to have a discussion with you if you won't grasp the facts. If you need help the Racing Post website will .
..Going to bed feeling like Basil Fawlty dealing with Manuel. I had forgotten why I engage on here so rarely.
I think it's a bit silly notenough to suggest that somebody has "chosen" not to read something properly and it's far more likely to occur inadvertently and even more so in a long thread like this with several posts over several days.
So if I accidentally overlooked something you wrote then I apologise but it's easily done when someone replies on one day to something originally written on a different one. I wasn't about to trawl through the whole thread but from memory thought you had said Cumani didn't train a UK Gr1 winner from 2005-2015 and so responded to that, rather than the fact you had listed the names of the horses that bookended that period when he did.
So if I accidentally overlooked something you wrote then I apologise but it's easily done when someone replies on one day to something originally written on a different one. I wasn't about to trawl through the whole thread but from memory thought you had said Cumani didn't train a UK Gr1 winner from 2005-2015 and so responded to that, rather than the fact you had listed the names of the horses that bookended that period when he did.
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