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26 Apr 16
12:19
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Date Joined:
09 Mar 05
Its seems incredulous that you can have a reduction factor applied on some in-running bets.
On Sunday I requested to back Lady Poppy (5.00 Musselburgh) at odds of 4.90, 5.00, 5.10, 5.20 prior to the off, and the withdrawal of the second favourite.
The second favourite was never removed from the betting as it was deemed too late to reform the market.
I had ticked the 'Keep' so that if it wasn't matched before the start of the race it would remain there during.
Soon after the off most of my bets were matched but surprisingly the 21.7% reduction factor was applied.
This now means that most of the bets have been settled at under odds of 4.00. I subsequently questioned this and was told there was a transition period of a couple of seconds, when there was such a late withdrawal.
The layer who took my bets benefits by paying out over one point less than they should have while the backer gets penalised, despite their judgement proving correct.
Betfair say they wont resettle the bets even though they acknowledge the error and I now find myself £90 out of pocket.
On Sunday I requested to back Lady Poppy (5.00 Musselburgh) at odds of 4.90, 5.00, 5.10, 5.20 prior to the off, and the withdrawal of the second favourite.
The second favourite was never removed from the betting as it was deemed too late to reform the market.
I had ticked the 'Keep' so that if it wasn't matched before the start of the race it would remain there during.
Soon after the off most of my bets were matched but surprisingly the 21.7% reduction factor was applied.
This now means that most of the bets have been settled at under odds of 4.00. I subsequently questioned this and was told there was a transition period of a couple of seconds, when there was such a late withdrawal.
The layer who took my bets benefits by paying out over one point less than they should have while the backer gets penalised, despite their judgement proving correct.
Betfair say they wont resettle the bets even though they acknowledge the error and I now find myself £90 out of pocket.
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if you're absolutely sure the bets matched in running their own rules are clear that no reduction factor will be applied, so i'd go back and ask for the difference
the question is did they match just prior to the off and you were using the main interface with a slow refresh, so it appeared as though it was just after the start but in fact they had matched just before they came out of the stalls?
if they are admitting the error and their rules clearly say no reduction i can't see why they would not correct the payment
the question is did they match just prior to the off and you were using the main interface with a slow refresh, so it appeared as though it was just after the start but in fact they had matched just before they came out of the stalls?
if they are admitting the error and their rules clearly say no reduction i can't see why they would not correct the payment
They have admitted that they were matched after the off but because of the 'transition period' earlier stated, they are unwilling to alter the settled bets. I was monitoring Gruss at the off so am in no doubt about the prices.
the suspend is also after the off and some IR get into pre off - hence slow aways and refuse to race have distorted BSP's ...
https://en-betfair.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/415/~/exchange%3A-what-are-the-options-keep-bet-and-take-sp-when-i-have-an
For markets that are scheduled to be turned in-play at the ‘off’, a customer can request that an unmatched Exchange bet should not be cancelled when the market is turned in-play. This is done by selecting the ‘At In-Play: Keep’ option in the bet manager and means that the unmatched bet persists when other unmatched bets are cancelled at the start of the event.
When a non-runner is removed from a horseracing market it is Betfair’s policy to cancel unmatched offers to LAY all other horses in the market if the non-runner has a reduction factor of 2.5% or greater for win markets, or 4.0% or greater for place markets.
In these circumstances offers to lay a horse with the ‘At In-Play: Keep’ option selected will not be cancelled. Instead the lay odds offered or requested in place markets will be reduced in proportion with the reduction factors of any non-runner(s) and the same will apply in win markets providing the relevant non-runner has a reduction factor of at least 2.5%.
Please also note that for horseracing markets reduction factors are not applied to ‘keep’ bets which are matched in-play.
In the event of a late withdrawal, Betfair reserves the right to remove the runner after completion of the race. In this case any ‘keep’ bet placed before the off and matched in-play will remain at the original selected price and will not be adjusted or cancelled as would be the case if the non-runner were removed pre-race.
For markets that are scheduled to be turned in-play at the ‘off’, a customer can request that an unmatched Exchange bet should not be cancelled when the market is turned in-play. This is done by selecting the ‘At In-Play: Keep’ option in the bet manager and means that the unmatched bet persists when other unmatched bets are cancelled at the start of the event.
When a non-runner is removed from a horseracing market it is Betfair’s policy to cancel unmatched offers to LAY all other horses in the market if the non-runner has a reduction factor of 2.5% or greater for win markets, or 4.0% or greater for place markets.
In these circumstances offers to lay a horse with the ‘At In-Play: Keep’ option selected will not be cancelled. Instead the lay odds offered or requested in place markets will be reduced in proportion with the reduction factors of any non-runner(s) and the same will apply in win markets providing the relevant non-runner has a reduction factor of at least 2.5%.
Please also note that for horseracing markets reduction factors are not applied to ‘keep’ bets which are matched in-play.
In the event of a late withdrawal, Betfair reserves the right to remove the runner after completion of the race. In this case any ‘keep’ bet placed before the off and matched in-play will remain at the original selected price and will not be adjusted or cancelled as would be the case if the non-runner were removed pre-race.
nev, see as per onlookers post, i don't think their transition period is an excuse, legally it's at the official off time, not on the failings of their systems to do the job correctly
so long as they suspended the market, went in running and then your keep bets were matched then you are clearly in running with no reduction factor regardless of what their software is capable of doing
Seems like they are not abiding by their rules.
I have been told there could be some muscle damage to the eyelid so I am currently waiting to here from the hospital.
Thanks for asking.
I have been told there could be some muscle damage to the eyelid so I am currently waiting to here from the hospital.
Thanks for asking.
late suspend then it is pre race, not an issue, but he's saying they are admitting the bets are matched after the suspend, that's the point i was trying to clarify earlier in which case no reduction factor and they need to fix the problem and pay him
nev are you sure the market had suspended and the bets were matched with the market in running (not just the race being off)?
why would there be a transition period if no horse was removed?
i think they are talking about transition from pre race to in running
yeah - but they mentioned 'when there was such a late withdrawal. '
if it's help desk they use general answers sometimes, best to escalate it and ask to speak to someone with specific knowledge that can look at that market
if the bets matched in the pre race market even thought the actual race is off you won't win, they do their best to go in running when they are aware, your case is that the race was in running on the betfair site
if the bets matched in the pre race market even thought the actual race is off you won't win, they do their best to go in running when they are aware, your case is that the race was in running on the betfair site
bear in mind that there were two withdrawals, the suspend on gruss would have popped up for one of them - not meaning the race was off - if that happened to catch your eye ...
tbf that was a little earlier at the start but depends when they actioned it
5:00 Musselburgh Hurricane Alert Miss N A Lloyd-Beavis Ryan While 3 16:58 4.442% 0%
tbf that was a little earlier at the start but depends when they actioned it
5:00 Musselburgh Hurricane Alert Miss N A Lloyd-Beavis Ryan While 3 16:58 4.442% 0%
be interested to hear what the final outcome is and whether it was in running on betfair when he got a reduction factor applied, i can see a large loophole to print money
They say that the race was off at 5.03.45sec and the bets were taken at 5.03.48sec
is 5.03.45 the time it went in running on the site or the time the gates opened?
delta has race off time at "Off time: 17:03:45 " so i can't see how betfair went in running at the exact time, i suspect your bets are matched in the pre race market before they turned in running
They said it was the official off time according to attheraces website.
yes but that isn't the time that in running started and that's the difference between your reduction factor being applied or not
even though you can see the race has started, there can be a second or so delay in the race actually being turned n play, so yes your bets were matched when the race was technically being run but betfair had yet to start the in running aspect of the race
i'm not saying it's right, but it's clearly a manual operation that they either have to havecalled in from the track by a rep or they have to go off whatever feed they use
if your bet was matched in the pre race market you won't win this one, only if they concede that they had turned the market in play would be able to hold them to their ruling of no reduction factor
even though you can see the race has started, there can be a second or so delay in the race actually being turned n play, so yes your bets were matched when the race was technically being run but betfair had yet to start the in running aspect of the race
i'm not saying it's right, but it's clearly a manual operation that they either have to havecalled in from the track by a rep or they have to go off whatever feed they use
if your bet was matched in the pre race market you won't win this one, only if they concede that they had turned the market in play would be able to hold them to their ruling of no reduction factor
Betfair aims to use its reasonable endeavours to suspend in-play markets at the start of and at the end of the event. However, regardless of what it says in the Market Information, Betfair does not guarantee that such markets will be suspended at the relevant time.
that's the rule they will hide behind for a late start to in running
that's the rule they will hide behind for a late start to in running
The layer of my bet must have been keen to lay Lady Poppy as I was requesting half a point bigger than what was already showing if it hadn't gone in-play. I assume all the money between 4.60 and 5.00 will have remained there while in transition.
until the point it goes in running on the site all of the money from the pre race market remains as was unless cancelled by the user
when the market gets turned in play unmatched bets are then cancelled except the keep bets
there have been many instances of unseats or horses failing to come out of the gate where those with fast pics hoover all of the pre race money before it goes in play, can't recall the horse but someone did a horse to 1000 in the gate which then actually won so they don't always get it right
it's not ideal because there is a delay between pre race and in running markets, so your bet sounds like it matched once the race started but before betfair turned to in running, if the market was in play rather than just the race you should not have a reduction factor
when the market gets turned in play unmatched bets are then cancelled except the keep bets
there have been many instances of unseats or horses failing to come out of the gate where those with fast pics hoover all of the pre race money before it goes in play, can't recall the horse but someone did a horse to 1000 in the gate which then actually won so they don't always get it right
it's not ideal because there is a delay between pre race and in running markets, so your bet sounds like it matched once the race started but before betfair turned to in running, if the market was in play rather than just the race you should not have a reduction factor
it sounds to me that the bets matched as part of the BSP, the point where the market suspends but before it goes in play and the HD guy wasn't able to articulate it very well.
listening to some people that have queried things before that wouldn't be the first time, but in fairness i've never had a problem with the things i've asked about
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