Is Qipco's criticism of Ch4's racing coverage fair?

Could he elaborate on the hair standing stories?

If you tried to sell racing as purely a spectator sport it would be dead within 5 years. Take a look at the non punting attendees at any big meeting and they are not particularly watching the racing, they will drinking, eating and socialising. I feel the problem is that racing does a very bad job of publicising the betting side of racing. Lets take the very basic situation with odds. You really would think that by 2015 we would have ditched the old odds ladder. What relevance does 15/8 have with an up and coming potential punter not that it had any relevance before. I would prefer to see odds quoted in a simple format that allows anyone with a basic maths education to understand the relationship between prices. In other word 3.25 is bigger than 2.87 whereas 9/4 and 15/8 for some is still a little confusing. Sometimes our approach towards heritage is like a ball and chain, a reluctance to change when a speedy reaction to changing times is needed.

Redvers is a clown. The problem is the quality of betting anlysis. There is little or nodiscussion on approaches to betting. C4s discussion of betting is solely based on interviewing PR reps.


Add in the fact not a single one of the C4 crew is likable

pretty sure Redvers has great experience of what the working-class stay-at-home punter wants to watch...not


if he thinks anyone gives a sh!t about which one of his sheikhy mates is winning anything he's somewhat mistaken

I love Channel 4 Racing and i dont like you guy's that keep knocking it.

I love Channel 4 Racing and i dont like you guy's that keep knocking it.

Acey you are joking surely if not you are certainly in the vast minority

Many of the people in racing appear to live their whole lives living in a bubble. You only have to listen to their thoughts, the way they act and dress.

There is so much about racing you would have trouble justifying to a wider audience - paying millions for animals when there is so much poverty around, hitting an animal in the name of entertainment, the lack of criticism of those in the sport spring readily to mind.

Unless a punter has enough money to become an owner they are and will remain bottom of the pile.

Dead serious,i know i am in the minorit but i really think it's very good.

Minority even.

And i have not missed a Saturday for the last 20 odd years.

The problem with C4 Racing is the "C4" bit.

If you put the exact same programme, & presenters, on BBC1, the viewing figures would be a million or two higher. Similar if on ITV1 too.

The sport needs to decide what it wants, if it's more viewers, then the rights should be sold to BBC or ITV at a lower price. If it's cash, then sell back to C4.

I guess it's whether BBC or ITV would want it back, after all they can stick on a dodgy antiques programme and get 2 or 3 million viewers at a fraction of the cast.

Channel 4 Racing is excellent. What else does racing have to promote racing to the general public? The RacingPost? RacingUK? AttheRaces? Pay up, pay up, pay up.

Racing is losing it's audience and has been long before Channel 4 got involved. What are the BHA doing to promote racing? Greed is ruining the game. Want to watch a race? Oh pay your subscription. Not one subscription mind, yes the sport is small but we've divided it up into two. So that's two subscriptions for you sir. How on earth is anybody supposed to get into the sport when they can't see the bloody races?
Betting is a huge part of the game but bookies have been steering punters away from racing for years now. It's only a front for them.

"We have some of the most fascinating, exciting, hairs-standing-up-on-the-back-of-your neck stories generated by any sport."
What methods are the BHA doing to get these across? Or do they just flick on Ch4 on a Saturday and see how they're getting on with it?


What an idiotic rant by Redvers. Sounds like a an awful ****.

Racing Post are happy to print it but what are they doing to promote the sport? Leeches! Probably the most money hungry group of them all.

No, it's absolute rubbish.

When I saw the headline I was hopeful he was going to say something sensible. Unfortunately, he's come out with exactly the opposite of what the problem is. If he thinks that C4 only promote it as a betting medium then he is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Those godawful ads they have completely killed my interest in watching it, can't seem to remember the worst culprit, hmmm...

Now it is a complete yawn .. well done David. It is a load of rubbish in comparison to what it was and now haemmorhaging viwers not just leaking and we get noddies trying to give legitimate excuses. Looks like contract negotiations are going to be very interesting. Get yer bags packed. Claire knew. Once again racing shoots itself in the foot by not thinking through consequences changing contracts and bookmaker adverts *** everybody off. It has lost it's fun. Lost pretty much everything to be honest. Bit like virtual in shops. BORING. Bring back Franklin as a starter and get rid of some presenters. We all know who they are. Morning line used to be enjoyable. Anybody remember when they last watched it? Or is going to watch it again? What time does it start? Saturday used to strat with ML. It is dead and past it's sell by date and no recovery possible. RIP.

Those adds; they stick them on just before the race begins.

Don't they realise that people aren't interested at that point in anything other than the race.

The advertisers are getting pretty poor value by doing that imo.

Cobblers!!

All I think when they come on at that point is ''get them off the screen.''

Dr .. sure Willies and Paddies now recognise that.

That was to the Liberator.

GO COMPARE GO COMPARE.

Go take running jump.

BBC have pretty much pulled out of sport with the exception of the Olympics and international football tournaments. Even the Six Nations will be split between Beeb and ITV and they even gave The Open to Sky a year earlier than planned.

So pretty safe to say racing is never coming back to the BBC.

Redvers clearly doesn't much connection with the audience that watches it on TV and why they watch it.

Acey .. we've all got an opinion and fully understand and appreciate yours. Like you I love C4 racing would even record it in VHS days and watch over and over again but is incipid and going through period of malaise and just not watchable if you've got RUk or RUK which are totally different class. They were the good old days. Trying to please too many grabbing the bookmakers dollar and so PC. Trust me it is bad. Why else do C4 viewing figures fall. Don't compare with the beeb. We all want a great racing channel. No argument there. We had great racing channel.

Agree with Kevinglass about  people don't watch Channel 4 whatever is on. For me there is too many experts and too much talking, but that's the same with every sport now. Rather see more horses and racing.

Interesting to see what would happen should it change to ITV as rumoured.

Interesting to see what would happen should it change to ITV as rumoured.

People will complain about ITV (NAP)

Be wonderful if Sheikh Fahad or somebody on his behalf would bid for new contract. Now that would shake market place up.

The basic thing about horse racing is that it fundamentally appeals to country folk as apposed to big conurbation  dwellers who, once upon a time, regarded the sport mainly as a betting medium.

Now that there are so many other things to bet on, by far the biggest section of the UK population has turned it's back on the Sport of King's in favour of football, fobts etc.

The only chance C4 has of rebuilding it's viewing figures is to concentrate on a audience who live in rural areas as they have a natural affinity for horses.

Much easier said than done, admittedly.

.

The problem with racing coverage is everyone seems to know each other. Proper questions and criticism is very thin on the ground, it's just a cosy little World and they want the rest of us to know it.

I have only watched four races in the last three weeks and The Morning Line once in the last six months.

The sporting and betting sides should both be covered -- there is no need to play one off against the other. It is not true, for instance, that Sprinter Sacre last weekend could only be appreciated by those who backed him; nor is the opposite true, that punters cannot appreciate the athleticism of the returning champion.

but it was only appreciated by people who back horses,people who dont bet wouldnt have a clue who sprinter sacre is

but it was only appreciated by people who back horses,people who dont bet wouldnt have a clue who sprinter sacre is

If you mean only people who follow racing will know Sprinter Sacre, you are right, but there really are a lot of people who follow racing without betting.

You cannot attract major audiences to a niche sport , it is the emphasis on ' star ' presenters , idiotic flashback presentation , favourites only discussions inter alia , that have already cost BBC and CH4 its audience and there is no way back . The audience it should have has gone for good .

Even if the programme moves to ITV we will likely have the same presenters so will simply have a continuance of what we have now - I think terrestrial viewing of racing is past its sell by date - it has a place on satellite & nothing more than that i'm afraid

I liked his " "What got Sheikh Fahad into racing in the first place is he loved the chat, banter and storylines on The Morning Line when it was produced by the old team. It was great television and it sucked him into the sport. Now it is a complete yawn as it seems to be almost entirely devoted to the betting on the racing that day"
My brother in law who was not interested in racing used to watch it then as he found it entertaining. Though he said that he did not understand it all.

Let's face it your never going to please everybody but it get's a Big Thumbs up from me.

There's certainly no magic bullet but if you were starting from scratch the first thing you'd want to at least slow the haemorrhage of viewers is to have racing on the BBC. If you couldn't have that then you'd go with ITV. A long way third would be Channel Four.

Beyond that you can probably forget the avid punter because most of those will be signed up to RUK. Or you can accept a continually shrinking audience as those punters who do tune in die off. Going on from that you'd need to identify what would get other sports enthusiasts interested in the sport. As someone else said anything you can do to demystify and simplify would be useful and (something which may not be popular amongst us enthusiasts) if you really want to get occasional viewers more interested get rid of the whip and promote the sport as a test of jockey skill and horse enthusiasm.

Nov 20, 2015 -- 7:15PM, Eeternaloptimist wrote:

There's certainly no magic bullet but if you were starting from scratch the first thing you'd want to at least slow the haemorrhage of viewers is to have racing on the BBC. If you couldn't have that then you'd go with ITV. A long way third would be Channel Four.Beyond that you can probably forget the avid punter because most of those will be signed up to RUK. Or you can accept a continually shrinking audience as those punters who do tune in die off. Going on from that you'd need to identify what would get other sports enthusiasts interested in the sport. As someone else said anything you can do to demystify and simplify would be useful and (something which may not be popular amongst us enthusiasts) if you really want to get occasional viewers more interested get rid of the whip and promote the sport as a test of jockey skill and horse enthusiasm.

Sensible post. I agree with it all but the whip (but I could be wrong). Those avid racing fans stating why they don't like it don't get it. It needs to appeal to those new to racing.

That's the heart of my argument though. Times change and excuse the emotive nature of the following but imagine someone seeing it for the first time:

A horse is beaten to make it run faster.

We may view it differently but that is the way that many potential new viewers would see it. In the 1950's few would have cared but we are well into the 21st century.

When you get half wits trying to remove what is essentially an extended toilet roll that acts as an artificial persuader and does make the horse go faster on occasion and indeed straightens a beast up (they can remember the real thing on the gallops) than you have to wonder at the future of the sport.

I cannot read all the posts because I would lose the will to live but having jumped in to give and then pay C4 was the worst ever decision in the history of British Horse racing..

Pre C4 every young pup was interested because it was on ITV and BBC..

Now they race to get it finished so that they can show a re-run of Come Dine With Me which has the exact proportion of Lesbians Homosexuals Angry Northerners Asians and Women that fit the agenda at that excuse for a TV Station...

And no viewers...

Eeternaloptimist

You have obviously not been beaten enough and next you will be saying that the public dislike horses running against each other and it will be a race between midgets running in their owners colours..

And then the midgets will be banned and we can all sit at home just like yourself and post absolute bol l ucks...

Hardly a niche sport when four meetings were in the ten most attended events of the year and 5.82 Million is not bad.
http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2015/06/22/datawatch-attendance-at-uk-sporting-events/
http://www.britishracecourses.org/news/racecourse-attendances-rise-in-2014/

Give me the C4 budget and a completely free hand and I could double the audience in a year..

There is a vast untapped number of punters out there whose only experience of a betting shop is to ask

"what price is Wayne Rooney to score the first goal and Man Utd to win 5-0 - I will take that 22/1.."

Just A Thought...

Ch4 has searched for an "inclusive" audience that doesn't exist. By doing that, their misguided production company has lost the sport's hard-core viewers hand over fist since taking over from the BBC.

Two points:

From the RP report - "Channel 4 understood to face a strong threat from ITV to retain its coverage of racing's crown jewel events from 2017." I am sure that is correct but who is going to cover the Saturday handicaps from Ripon and Market Rasen if that happens?

Secondly, Redvers' comments have to be looked at in the context of Qatar's relationship with Dubai. No one working for the Al Thanis ever got fired for sniping at the Al Maktoums.

My fear is that the only question now is when Dubai pulls the plug, in which case we can forget regular terestrial coverage (unless Sheikh Fahad puts his hand into his deep pocket of course.)

It is also wrong to say all committed fans or punters will be on RUK. For anyone who works during the week, it is hard to justify the subscription.

Exactly Ramruma,i am working all day so I wont pay for RUK.

Many of the people in racing appear to live their whole lives living in a bubble

These people are also presenting the show.

Who's the anchor - the daughter of a prominent trainer and niece of a Lord. Who's supporting her - the son of a Jockey Club Member, and the daughter of a prominent former trainer who's the ex-wife of a leading jockey.

Who's in the betting ring - the daughter of a bookmaker who's the partner of the former producer, and when she has a day off, the son of a trainer.

The problem for racing, imo, is that this creates a perception of non inclusivity for the viewer - these whole broadcasts are drowning in elitism, privilege and industry nepotism, and to make matters worse, the two lead presenters are relentlessly patronising, and in the case of Luck, deliberately choosing to use words that none of the people watching use in their own lives.

Add to that the unsettling chumminess between the presenters and the players, as they interview 'AP', 'Hughesy' and 'Frankie' without daring to do anything other than back slap a little less firmly, and the constant pollution of bookmaker PR frauds, placed in the broadcast for no other purpose than to deceive viewers for whom not a single word they say can possibly ring true, and it's hardly surprising, imo, that audiences can not engage with an experience that's both cynically manipulative and often feels like you're gate crashing someone's private party...

In the dim and distant when I first started in the game there were people that wanted to modernise the whole sport..

They have got us in this position..

It should be an inclusive sport where learning about the mannerisms sayings and thoughts was part of the whole process..

You have people saying that the racial minorities should be encouraged to come racing when in fact the reverse is true and people come to be part of their own culture...

It is an escape from everyday life a skive a corporate freebie and that is the attraction..

As regards Betting Shop punters the constant noise in a "store" must drive many to the internet...

Who is that freak that is always on about 49's at lunchtime...

You failed to mention millhouse that they talk a lot of sense and know the game inside out.

Nepotism and and no criticism. Spot on.

Now they have A.P on the payroll what more do you want ffs?

acey deucy

You would get more sense out of AC/DC as those freaks are gravytrainers that have never worked in their lives..

Feck me they have been chosen because they fit the C4 profile and none of them is a normal white working class person that drives this Country..

(with apologies to the black working class person that drives the Country - and how come Ken does not get a gig...)

AP earns enough money selling his fellow jockeys out...

Rancid Individual...

I`m with you Acey.

Cheers FELTFAIR.

Feck me there are people out there that think that that bunch of chancers are in that job on merit..

homefortea

You have obviously not been beaten enough

You've got me there brother. I'm definitely from the General Patton school of thought which advocates that you should make the other baastard die for his country. I probably haven't been beaten enough but I've dished a few out.

On the substantive issue perhaps you could clarify something. Does the whip work or not?

Feck me is George C Scott still alive...

And on the internet in 2015..

I reckon those viewing figures only confirm what I posted on the RIP Julian Wilson thread last year:

It was only when Julian Wilson disappeared from our screens that it became clear how vital to the sport his broadcasting style was. No feeble jokes, no distractions, no larking around - this is serious, important stuff, with serious money involved. If you the viewer don't understand everything, then you'd better make the effort to do so. Horse racing really is that important.

Now ... it's just trivial. We'll treat you like a moron, but if you don't like it, then switch over. You won't be missing anything.

If the "whip" did not work then it would not be used..

As stated it reminds a massive beast to go straight and maybe try harder..

Perhaps it should be used on the massive public sector that does absolutely feck all...

You must be a teacher and tell me again why they should exist when we could skype the classes into classrooms at no cost...

That's the way of things in general these days,screaming..

For example,the Sun is the most popular newspaper, more people watch soaps and reality shows on tv than the few programmes available that 

require concentration and an open mind.

Today channel 4,like most forms of media,places it's focus on the lowest common denominator.

I was a massive Julian Wilson fan screaming but he was never going to appeal to the masses ...Not in a Million years.

He had gravitas acey; something that is sadly lacking in the current bunch of ne'er do wells - all channels with a few notable exceptions.

That's my point,acey. Appealing to the masses will result in mediocrity.

like premier league football and pdc darts.

Big mac was well known because he divided opinions.Does nick luck mick fitz tanya divide opinions no.They are just middle of the road.

But he was creature because people tuned in for something different..

He was a posh boy and racing was what we aspired to..

We all wanted a House in the Country and all of that...

Instead we get some fat old chancer in the ring that has been clueless since day one and I am talking about that gravytrainer Tanya not that other fat nothing..

How can you aspire to win when any half-successful punter is banned and there is no voice on the very same channel to argue against them...

Great post, Screaming from beneathewaves...

The Pinhooker 20 Nov 15 19:48
Ch4 has searched for an "inclusive" audience that doesn't exist. By doing that, their misguided production company has lost the sport's hard-core viewers hand over fist since taking over from the BBC.


The old team with Francome, McCririck and Alistair Down werent afraid to say it as it was and brought to CH4 what the show needed for the working person (and that doesnt include Redvers) ... Entertainment and some controversy. To that degree I think the Sheikh is right. I posted on here it was a big mistake giving in to the people on this forum who effectively wanted RUk for free and so criticised the old team whenever possible. More analysis on races they said and so now we have Cunningham and Fitzgerald trying to convince us they could make a living from betting when all the working man wants is entertainment for his £50 to spend on a saturday.

Just when you thought it couldnt get worse the show is now going to turn into an AP ass-kissing exercise as all the racing insiders on the show clamour to tell him how great he is at every opportunity. His missus must be pleased to get the amusingly titled ex Sports Personality of the Year. out of the house to take his self-importance back to where it can be nursed! Remember him having goes at Lydia and the like for dating to criticise race rides in the past  (yes I remember cheering when a certain horse lost the Carol Cup on the line after several 'off days' with punters cash burned) well here is what you get when criticism isnt allowed..cronyism. Cronyism is a turn off to viewers and watching Tom Trainers son in the ring doesnt help either. Racing is run for racing and not for punters, always has been and always will be. Trouble is they have choices now so the racing class are losing their income over time and they dont like it one bit. Go back to entertainment as the tv goal then introduce non-insiders to the team. Have a guest punter each week to offer uncensored views on the sport and the bookies .. they wont like it but the viewing figures will go through the roof. They need their *rses kicking anyway selling racing out for their high street casinos. We need racing to have to defend itself more often to keep the probity in place that will draw people back into watching and taking the sport seriously. A team of insiders agreeing has no future.

There's little doubt that the dumbing down of presenting style and content is driven by production.

It's hard to disagree that this is at the risk of alienating its core audience.

Oh and to keep 'enthusiasts' watching introduce an all-time great horses feature each show covering the races and career of a past great champion. Make this a regular feature and interview those involved with the horse at the time with inside titbits. People watch for the equine stars not for the jockeys so lets get the emphasis on the animals themselves.

First one...make it Arazi culminating in his Breeders Cup win. That will draw people to the sport not a dull as sh*t jockeys championship who cares about that we all know jockeys ultimately obey their paymasters. The horses are the stars to the viewers so lets review the careers of past Champions as a showcase for new viewers and potential punters. If this takes time away from bookies on the show great as they need to work harder for their slice of the show imo. Only let them appear to peddle if they will answer a guest punters questions each week.

As stated it reminds a massive beast to go straight and maybe try harder..

As yu say you've already stated that homefortea so obviously I'm looking for further clarification. Why does the horse run straight and try harder for the whip? Does it tickle it? Does it educate it in some way? Does it frighten it? Or does it inflict pain on the animal?

Eric. You are not wrong. Racing programmes just need some presenter warmth and emphasis on the horses. Not just endless form book based opinion which serves as nothing much more than a space filler for hour after hour.

Could have aired his grievances in private. Channel 4 has an impossible task, in the old days serious fans/punters found the programme too fivolous and now it's more serious the casual viewer has been put off.

ET,

I asked a relation of mine, who is the business of schooling horses, about the purpose and effect of the whip.
  His original answer was that he "thought" it delivered a "shock" to the horse. This had some sort of "gavanising" effect.
F k knows what that means.

Later, after a visit to the rodeo and barrel-racing in Colorado, he seemed to change his mind. There they were using some sort of string tassels that seemed to help "steer" the horse.

Myself, I remain unconvinced by any of it. There are plenty of air-shots and jockeys wriggling about like Michael Jackson and there are plenty of races where the animal seems to defy the whip and move into it.

Certainly, there was a race in Ireland where Gosden's Derby winner knocked my selection out of contention and got away with it.

Whatever the truth, I take your point about the tv outfit having to try to popularise something that no longer catches the imagination of "youngsters".
As ye said, it is a difficult job; just look at the disparity of views on here - the btfr racing forum.

I strongly feel that things would be better without the dominance of Dubai, but money rules and, unfortunately, that's where it is at present.

its half bloody fashion show. hardly all about betting to be honest

Had my post removed from earlier. Cannot understand why. Mentioned gravy trains, poor presenters, illiterate presenters and general reasons why racing needs a clean up. Big brother is well and truly in control on here!

Glad to hear it Roy there is far to much sh1te spouted on here.

Think its pretty unfair to blame C4. ATR and RUK deserve massive proportion of the blame. Who with half a brain cell would find Luke Harvey and Weaver entertaining. These are the channels who day to day show racing. The decision to put major races on RUK subscription only is a massive mistake. Yes its worked with premiership on sky but HR is nowhere near as popular as footie.

RUK consists of constant repeats....

Trouble is Acey,,, the controllers are just gravy train types. Frightened to death of anyone saying it as it is! Andrew Neil types banned from here. More's the pity.

People who dye their hair orange have never floated my boat.

Eeternaloptimist 21 Nov 15 01:15 Joined: 28 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 34,807 | Blogger: Eeternaloptimist's blog
As stated it reminds a massive beast to go straight and maybe try harder..

As yu say you've already stated that homefortea so obviously I'm looking for further clarification. Why does the horse run straight and try harder for the whip? Does it tickle it? Does it educate it in some way? Does it frighten it? Or does it inflict pain on the animal?

The persuader reminds the beast that it has been domesticated..Would you rather that there was no racing at all..

Just a thought...

Incidentally you freak you should not be allowed to converse with those that contribute to society..

Do one or I may just come out of retirement...

Anyone who thinks its good and the presenters are watchable needs urgent medical attention