Thomas has a lovely clock in his head...

How on earth has he got that beat

Won pulling a cart last time,drifted in the betting from a yard who would normally hammer one if it was winning

Going from a 0-55 last time to a 0-60 this race and with a 6lb penalty from last time too and in fairness, he wasn't far wrong......no doubt would have won if he was still claiming 5lbs though rather than 3lbs.

the jockey defender has woken from his slumber...

I think you will find the word you are looking for is logic.

Horse gets beaten a head, horse is carrying a 6lb penalty from winning last time.....What could the connection be there I wonder?

Meh, poast ya lay...

Stunning lack of logic from you there GEORGE.B if you don't mind me saying.

I'm presuming you cleaned up, as you knew the step up from 0-55 company to 0-60 with a penalty, would find the horse out. Very well done.

I'm off to bed now, so all that's left to do is to thank you for coming on after the race to explain the result. Ta muchly.

If you are suggesting that I'm being wise after the event GEORGE.B then you are spot on, I plead guilty and am not claiming otherwise, but feel free to explain to me how that changes anything regarding the 6lbs penalty making the difference, assuming it has?.....I think you just might be trying a little to hard to find fault her and disagree based on previous disagreements, and you do know right that someone can still be right with the benefit of hindsight and it doesn't make them wrong just because they didn't predict it in advance?

For the record I didn't have a bet in the race but even if I had lumped on and took the chance that the 6lbs penalty wasn't enough to stop it, I'd have to be doing so in advance of knowing the result, in which case I would have been wrong that the 6lbs wasn't a factor if we assume it did actually make the difference. Yet if I later came on here and said that it made the difference, you saying "Meh, poast ya lay..." would make no sense whatsoever considering I had already lumped on the win.

Like I said, a stunning lack of logic there if the best you can muster up is "Meh, poast ya lay..." and if say someone on here had backed Man United to win a game pre-match and during that same game they had a player sent off and so didn't win, if I suggested that was why they didn't win, presumably your same lack of logic post would have been the equally idiotic "Meh, poast ya lay..."

But yeah you go to bed and hopefully you can dream about what logic is eh? You really couldn't make it up.

Spouting more shyte I see, this time about the horse's penalty. Well for your information as you are clearly not in full possession of the facts, the horse was officially 4lb well in as it is due to go up 10lb. According to the BHA's handicapper, the 6lb penalty should not have been enough to stop this evening.

Whatever, keep posting after the event, at least then you'll always be on 'safe ground'...

So just to summarise, Roger has got it wrong and Brown timed his challenge perfectly, the BHA's handicapper has got it wrong by putting the horse up 10lb, but ima_amazing, with the benefit of knowing the result, has got it all sussed cuz the 6lb penalty was the reason for the horse's defeat.
Now that we've got all that sorted, we can now all go to bed.

Good night and god bless

I don't care if the horse was meant to go up 110lb, if it has a 6lb penalty then it has a 6lb penalty, which oddly enough presumably means it has to carry 6lbs more than if it er didn't have a 6lb penalty. If the horse then gets beaten a head, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that 6lb penalty maybe made the difference.

Did it or did it not have a 6lb penalty? If so and I state that then how exactly in your world you live in is that me "Spouting more shyte?" Like I said before, you're trying just a little to hard to find fault. What I actually said in my initial post in this thread was:

Going from a 0-55 last time to a 0-60 this race and with a 6lb penalty from last time too and in fairness, he wasn't far wrong.

So nowhere either way did I say the 6lb was without doubt the reason for the defeat, but in your eagerness to find fault you have clearly overlooked that part.

Of course Brown didn't time the run perfectly or he wouldn't have finished 2nd but if you bothered to watch the race again you would see he was bumping along in the saddle quite a way out and seemed to hit a flat spot and was one of the first to come under, before staying on at the finish and a race isn't just about what happens in the final 100 yards or so when looking to weigh it up. Maybe you can explain please why the result also wasn't a 9-way dead head if you have so much faith in the handicapper, if you naively think it's an exact science.

For the record the horse has only won once in 10 start now and from getting its initial mark of 65 and being beaten, it then went on to lose off of 62, 60, 57 and 55 before winning its only ever race the time before this one under Thomas Brown off of 53. It then got put up to 59 again and lost this race.

And what part of me explaining to you in child size bites didn't you quite understand when I freely stated I was making my comments after the event? Everything happens for a reason and so when the horse didn't win, I look for possible reasons, I don't have to predict them in advance for them to still possibly be valid reasons though and I even gave you the football analogy too which you seem to have ignored because it doesn't suit your argument.

More paragraphs of nothing.

Roger has opined he thought Brown mistimed his challenge, the BHA's handicapper reckoned the horse was 4lb well in regardless of what the runs prior to the win had suggested, and you have after-timed that the penalty was enough to stop the horse.

That is it in a single paragraph.

Well you, Roger and the handicapper can look forward to the horse running again of its revised mark, and whether the horse proves up to it or not, I'm sure you will still have endless paragraphs of after-timing, mind-numbing sh*t to post.

Adamant approach would have won if never fell at the last -

Mad Moose would have won if he'd deigned to run !

In this case there's no doubt in my mind that Brown lost because he rode a poor race.

My opinion is that there was not much pace on last night as opposed to its last race -  I had outlaw torn as the definite leader before the race but Mandria decided to take it up with torn in second . The rest of the field seemed to let them get on with it .
A faster pace and the favourite would have won by 2

Jesus, he still has a 3lb claim........ my god is this the rider that was as good as Oisin 14 months ago....... Wow..... he needs a trip to Oz to sort out that famous clock.
Oisin, give IMA  a wave........

Take the blinkers off when you read what people say GEORGE.B and that way you might actually see their words and not the ones you attribute to them, as at no stage did I ever say the 6lbs was what cost the horse the race. That way you might see a bit more that "nothing" too and just because the handicapper puts a horse up 10lbs, that doesn't mean it's merited and do you honestly think it would have done better the other day with an extra 4lbs?

Poor effort easygold (no surprise there then) and put Murphy on Brown's rides and vice versa and you will have Brown riding the winners and that's without you even taking into account that he (Brown) is a little heavy now for a 3lb claimer and so his available mounts will be limited. Oddly enough kids can grow and get heavier as the get older.

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, it's far more about the horses than the jockeys but that seemingly goes way over your head. You only have to look at how joint Champion Apprentices Buick and Probert have got on since losing their claims or how many Gr1 winners Buick won before and since getting the Gosden job and post-Gosden with Jimmy Fortune too. Racing is no more an individual sport than football is, so any success for a jockey is is not dependant on individual ability alone.

It's also looking increasingly like Murphy in his first full season without his claim will be down numerically on rides and winners compared to last season and I could have sworn that was the point I was suggesting might well happen.

U are an awful clown....... just listen to urself......... comparing 3lb here 3lb there and those three riders you said that are as good as Murphy....... U clown... Brown,Hart, and who was the other fellow....... U clown....... the kid wants this...... I saw it a long time ago....... and u are still on about when he loses those precious 3lb...... U clown

ima_mazed66
     25 Oct 15 00:55 

Take the blinkers off when you read what people say GEORGE.B and that way you might actually see their words and not the ones you attribute to them, as at no stage did I ever say the 6lbs was what cost the horse the race.



ima_mazed66
     23 Oct 15 22:35 

I think you will find the word you are looking for is logic.

Horse gets beaten a head, horse is carrying a 6lb penalty from winning last time.....What could the connection be there I wonder?

^ what's this, Scotch mist?

IMA SAYS.....It's also looking increasingly like Murphy in his first full season without his claim will be down numerically on rides and winners compared to last season and I could have sworn that was the point I was suggesting might well happen.

Wow, he signs for Qatar....... that may answer that...... And he still only 20-years-old........ Wow...... him and David Mullins will have this sport by the "short and curly`s" sooner than I thought.

I know you have problems retaining information easygold, even when it's something you yourself have said, so let me remind you that you specifically stated Oisin Murphy was a future Champion Jockey and I merely said it remains to be seen how he gets on once he loses his claim as he is likely to be down numerically on rides and winners initially after losing his claim and it will also depend on getting the right job. Nothing has changed since I said that and also said the Qatar 2nd jockey job won't be enough to make him that and I very much doubt being their #1 will either.

You read all of that and somehow process it as me saying he's no good.

Like I said GEORGE.B, nowhere did I say the 6lbs was the reason for the defeat.

I did hint that it might have been and was possibly significant but made no definite claims to it being the case.

Which was why I also used phrases like:

"Going from a 0-55 last time to a 0-60 this race and with a 6lb penalty from last time too and in fairness, he wasn't far wrong" which was my initial post in the thread, followed by:

"Horse gets beaten a head, horse is carrying a 6lb penalty from winning last time.....What could the connection be there I wonder?" Meaning I was suggesting it was a logic possible reason in response to be labelled a jockey defender, followed by:

"but feel free to explain to me how that changes anything regarding the 6lbs penalty making the difference, assuming it has?"

and

"...in which case I would have been wrong that the 6lbs wasn't a factor if we assume it did actually make the difference.

I even stated in an earlier post in the thread:

"So nowhere either way did I say the 6lb was without doubt the reason for the defeat, but in your eagerness to find fault you have clearly overlooked that part."

You have said a lot more crap about this debate........... mentioning jockeys that are as good as him at the time???? who had a lot more experience ......... . If you can`t see that he is going to be a top jock........ the reason is that you have to wait until he does it?????
I said I hadn`t seen a 5lb claimer at the time as good as him in a long time and that is still the case........ and will make it to the top. But no you have to could back with crap....... about other rider WHO YOU THOUGHT WAS AS GOOD AS HIM.......... where are they?????????
U CLOWN

It's also looking increasingly like Murphy in his first full season without his claim will be down numerically on rides and winners compared to last season and I could have sworn that was the point I was suggesting might well happen.

Can you tell me how many winners and rides Atzeni is down on last season please? And could you tell me if he lost a claim last year too? To use your phrase I wonder what the connection is between the 2 of them seeing as it's not the loss of a claim.

While you're at it could you also tell me what Murphy has been able to offer the 100 plus different trainers he's ridden for this year seeing as you told us that the lack of a claim and big race riding experience would make him him a less attractive option to trainers at the time he lost the claim. Oh and don't stop there because you can also tell me how De Sousa has won the jockeys title this season given his lack of a top job?

You really would make yourself look less of a dope if you didn't keep using the most tenuous of examples to try and make out that you were right.

Don't encourage him, I've read enough of his guff.

Ima's favourite hobby is having an arguement with his toes in lonely hotel rooms....

Lads this has become hard going and I stopped reading awhile back. If anyone writes anything of importance could someone please let me know in one short sentence.

I was fully expecting to read somewhere on this forum several paragraphs from him defending Dettori's ride in the RP Trophy, but praise the Lord, we've been spared!

He must have backed Foundation, that would explain it

I remember that other rider Tart you said was as good as Murphy.......... yeah 5 wins this year.....

Thomas, once again has his mount too far back......... he stays further so you have him further back over a shorter trip. If Oisin has a few mins he win explain how to ride.

He's on CET innit

You have to laugh at being called a clown by someone like easygold who depsite being told numerous times that I merely took issue with his specific (key word there) claim that Oisin Murphy was a certain future Champion Jockey that it all depended on how he got on once he lost his claim and whether he got the right job to allow for that. So then the real clown here is you saying "If you can`t see that he is going to be a top jock"....Give me strength, nowhere in me stating the proviso needed for him to become a future Champion Jockey does that translate to a person of normal intelligence as me saying he isn't going to be a top jockey.

The point I was making but it still clearly going way over your head despite me again having made it numerous times is that once an apprentice loses their claim they lose an edge that made their booking a positive to trainers, in that the trainer can get some weight off the horse's back which is offset by a lack of experience that a fully-fledged jockey an offer. Once that claim has gone, why bother to book an inexperienced fully-fledged jockey when your other choices are to book the experienced one or another claimer who can still give you the weight concession.

If some of these other claimers like Brown, Hardie, Hart, Tart and so on start to find it difficult once they aren't claiming as much weight as before or not at all, then that only serves to prove my point. As does getting a decent job once the claim has gone because if Murphy wasn't at Qatar and still at Andrew Balding's, he's be competing for rides off levels with more experienced jockeys like Andrea Atzeni, Jim Crowley, Jimmy Fortune, Liam Keniry and David Probert, as well as apprentices like Thomas Brown and Rob Hornby who can offer Balding that weight concession and I've even noticed him booking Tom Marquand occasionally too, presumably for the very reason that he can still offer something Murphy can't.

So Robert Tart's had 6 winners this season from 88 rides now that he's lost his claim compared to 32 winners last season from 273 rides when he was still claiming 3lbs? Do I really have to spell it out for you once again? Remember that thing I said about apprentices likely to be down on winners and rides once they lose their claim? Ta-da!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you really needed to think more before asking those questions Marcce.

Atzeni obviously has to go where Qatar have runners and then will look to pick up spares at those meetings. He's also their (for want of a better expression) complete #1 and so rides theirs outside of the UK too, so if he has had to go to Ireland or France for a single ride then that might very well mean he missed a possible 6 rides at a meeting in the UK. Of course that will apply to Oisin Murphy too regarding going where their #2 runners are but you would think that less likely due to not always having runners every day at alternative meetings.

Nobody said trainers would never use Murphy once he lost his claim but by losing it obvious took away an advantage he had to offer them. What with the amount of racing there is though and the rule about the number of meetings jockeys can ride each week, there are still plenty of rides available and plenty of trainers needing to book jockeys. Add to that the 100 trainer things means very little unless you also list the number who booked him in a season when he still had his claim, plus Qatar don't have all of their horses with a single trainer and so he will have ridden for some trainers this season that he wouldn't have done before. Previously if Balding had 4 runners at a meeting and Murphy rode them and also picked up 2 outside spares for different trainers then that will total 3 trainers he rode for that day, whereas now he could go to a meeting and ride for 6 different trainers yet still have the same number of rides.

I never said you had to get a top job to become Champion Jockey, I said you had to get the right job but that's OK as I'm used to being misquoted on here. So anyway regarding De Sousa, 41 of his winners have come from Mark Johnston from 184 rides, which is in the top 7 of jockey/trainer combinations this season. Ryan Moore also missed a large chunk of the season via injury as Richard Hughes did via retirement, so I would have said there was a connection there wouldn't you? So far this season De Sousa has ridden 154 winners compared to Hughes last 3 seasons being 166, 208 and 177 winners and not only that, I expect De Sousa went all out for the title once it looked on in Hughes's and Moore's absence.

Failing to get a run in a big field GEORGE.B and/or in a race with a bend is part of racing and I wouldn't really put too much blame on the jockey there. Failing to do so in a 7 runner field in a straight race as Dettori did is another matter, especially when he dropped his horse out from the start and could easily have moved from his 6 draw to the outer where he would have only needed to pull around one runner at the most to get a run.

Which leads me nicely on to another point I've often made where Dettori stuck to the rules and so lost the race and yet had he barged his way out like Atzeni did in the St Leger and won, you would get the tired lazy cliché that the best horse won and so he should keep the race despite breaking the rules. Yet with Foundation, arguably the best horse didn't win because the jockey didn't break the rules, which only encourages them to do so now.

Once again ima you're talking complete muck. You said yourself the other week that you don't really know how the system for jockey's bookings works (trust me it shows) and this is another example of it.

We're not talking about Atzeni's number of winners being down a little bit which might reflect that he's ridden elsewhere. They're down by almost 50. Quite hilarious how you make a big issue of Murphy probably going to be about 10 winners down on last season but then try to gloss over Atzeni being down 50. It is also harder for a 2nd jockey because he will find himself waiting on decisions a lot more than the main jockey. He will also find himself in positions where, if they have one at Newcastle or something, he will be required to ride as part of his retainer and thus possibly missing out on more rides elsewhere.

Yes Murphy could go to a meeting and ride for 6 different trainers but your point was he could struggle to get those rides without his claim! So what are these trainers seeing in him without the claim, especially those he didn't ride for when he did have it? Why are they using him and not one of those other apprentices you keep banging on about? Why did Stoute use him this season when he never had previously? Why is he going to get a double figure number of rides from Bin Suroor when he had only had a total of 1 over the past 2 years? Those plenty of rides and plenty of trainers needing to book jockeys were about when you highlighted the difference of him riding without a claim. So why has that only now become an obvious answer?

Errr we're aware of the reasons that helped De Sousa win the title but is Hughes coming out of retirement now then? Is Moore going to go all out to win the title and thus give up on riding regularly in Ireland and elsewhere during the season? Can we say he'll never get injured again during a season? De Sousa, as he himself has said recently, is 2nd or 3rd choice for rides from Johnston. Joe Fanning gets more winners and rides from the stable so why wasn't he challenging for the title? It seems that being 2nd or 3rd choice at Johnston's qualifies as being the "right job" in your mind. Also why are you comparing De Sousa's season long number of winners to the numbers Hughes got when the duration of the jockey's title has now changed?

It really is funny that you tell me I should think more when you keep displaying your lack of knowledge about these things. I suggest you take your own advice and start by thinking about giving up on arguments you just don't have the knowledge or intellect to win.

Oisin........ right on CUE again.............

A CLOWN..........

And Robert Tart as weak as a kitten on the 5th....painful watching that "effort"...made Hayley Turner look like Godzilla..

Do u think Tart will be getting rides from the big boy`s........... Murphy`s claim is gone a long enough time now....... and is getting better all the time..... but people couldn`t see that .............. They have to wait and see it............ and can`t judge a rider.......... 3lb claim....... ffs. CLOWN

Robert Tart 6 winners all year.....
6! yes, 6......wtf has happened this guy?????
A new occupation beckons.
Mr Kipling are looking for bakers.

BUT I DONT KNOW UNTIL I SEE WHAT HE IS LIKE WITHOUT THE CLAIM............ U CLOWN............

Marcce......Yes Murphy could go to a meeting and ride for 6 different trainers but your point was he could struggle to get those rides without his claim! So what are these trainers seeing in him without the claim, especially those he didn't ride for when he did have it? Why are they using him and not one of those other apprentices you keep banging on about? Why did Stoute use him this season when he never had previously? Why is he going to get a double figure number of rides from Bin Suroor when he had only had a total of 1 over the past 2 years? Those plenty of rides and plenty of trainers needing to book jockeys were about when you highlighted the difference of him riding without a claim. So why has that only now become an obvious answer?

Errr we're aware of the reasons that helped De Sousa win the title but is Hughes coming out of retirement now then? Is Moore going to go all out to win the title and thus give up on riding regularly in Ireland and elsewhere during the season? Can we say he'll never get injured again during a season? De Sousa, as he himself has said recently, is 2nd or 3rd choice for rides from Johnston. Joe Fanning gets more winners and rides from the stable so why wasn't he challenging for the title? It seems that being 2nd or 3rd choice at Johnston's qualifies as being the "right job" in your mind. Also why are you comparing De Sousa's season long number of winners to the numbers Hughes got when the duration of the jockey's title has now changed?.....

I merely said it remains to be seen how Oisin Murphy gets on once his claim was gone, which means precisely that.

As far as Hughes's number of winners being up goes when the jockey title was longer compared to how it is now when De Sousa has won it, I suggest you take my advice and the same advice you tell me to take and do a bit more research. It's irrelevant if say for the sake of argument Hughes was riding out of the country in the early weeks, or what about if he had got a ban and missed a chunk of it? Maybe that sounds familiar eh?

Some of the trainers Oisin Murphy has ridden for this season but not previously I have already touched on and involve his 2nd jockey job with Qatar. Nobody said though he would never get any rides off of trainers who had never used him before but just that without his claim he doesn't offer them that extra positive thing, and the likes of bin Suroor and Stoute are using him and plenty of other jockeys too (so it's not just him) because their first choice jockeys are elsewhere in the world. Oh and if a trainer now books a claiming apprentice when they might previously have booked Murphy with his claim, then how would you know that has happened, are the going to make an announcement about it or something?

How would you know trainers also didn't see Jack Garritty or Tom Marquand as the go to apprentices this season to take weight off when last season if might have been Murphy? Or how about Rob Hornby getting rides from Andrew Balding to use his weight allowance when it would have been Murphy to use his last season instead?

If Joe Fanning isn't challenging for the title then he obviously doesn't have the right job to allow for that then does he? I also only ever made the claim about Murphy needing to get the right job to be a future Champion Jockey, it's irrelevant that De Sousa is because I made no claim about him, so until Murphy actually becomes champion then my point is still valid. Apart from anything else though, unless it's a tie then two jockeys can't win the title in the same season, yet that doesn't mean they can't both have jobs that will increase their chances of doing so.

easygold     28 Oct 15 13:37 
Oisin........ right on CUE again.............

What about Oisin Murphy getting beaten on Impressive Day at 2/5f today in a close finish by Ted Durcan, a jockey regularly derided on here as being as week as my Nan's tea? He probably would have held on if still able to claim 3lbs though and it's races like this that cover the very point I am making. Or how about you suggesting Murphy wouldn't get beaten by sitting too far back and then coming late but like Thomas Brown? Maybe you should look at his ride on another beaten favourite Very Special in the 3:20 at Lingfield today. That's the thing about cherry-picking to suit your own argument, we can all do it too.

And what part of me saying for the 102nd time now didn't you quite understand the 101 other times when I said I rated Murphy? Your silence is deafening and then you've got the cheek to call me a clown ffs.

Roger De Bris     28 Oct 15 13:50 
Robert Tart 6 winners all year.....
6! yes, 6......wtf has happened this guy?????
A new occupation beckons.
Mr Kipling are looking for bakers.

He's lost his claim and so now has to ride at levels against the big boys and can't offer trainers a weight concession and so they can look to other apprentices who can.

Maybe that sounds familiar?

No ima you didn't merely say that because early on this season you said he hadn't ridden many winners up to then. During this very thread you said the number of winners and rides he's had this season will be down "just as you suggested they would". If you had merely said that and left it at that we wouldn't keep having these discussions.

The problem with you and I've said this time and again is that you make a statement and then will firstly use any possible example thereafter to claim you were right. Secondly, when you are pulled up on the examples you use, there follow bewildering reasons from you to justify it.

So, as an example, with your narrative starting out as it remains to be seen what happens when Murphy loses his claim, every single example of being beaten narrowly since must be down to the lost claim. Him riding less winners this season (and it's now going to be only a handful less if that) is entirely down to him no longer having a claim whereas Atzeni riding almost 50 (fifty) less winners than last season is explained away by this ludicrous notion that he might be riding a few days abroad as a result of the retainer!

You're just continually unable to see beyond simplistic and given that, for whatever reason, you seem to crave recognition from others for being right, you really need to get yourself beyond that.