Speculative Bid ???

Blind fold removal Is the  jockeys responsibility

so is making sure you're sitting on the 'orses back!

Should read 'being a declared a runner'.

Too much wine.

Aviboyd. This is a different case. Why argue with me ? It's not my nonsense ! The officials have declared it a non runner. End of !

Hostage mighty

Not if handler is in the stalls Ffs ! What is the matter with you people ?

Facts - FFS, announced a non runner AFTER the 'weigh in'.

The interesting thing is that Betfair have overturned the non runner decision for Exchange punters...that's a pretty dangerous precedent in itself.

the enquiry was in to what happened at the start.not into if the horse was a non runner.

wrong wrong wrong !!! i was on heavens guest .. now out of pocket , the horse was under starters orders .. so there for how can you count it as a non runner .. 1st for me never heard anything like it .

its a runner now. jeez oh

Aberdonia has hit the nail on the head.  Someone wanted to be seen to make a goodwill gesture and put racing in a good light.  Unfortunately, by not announcing an enquiry immediately it's come back to haunt them and is now an absolute mess.  For what it's worth, I backed Speculative Bid and having not come out of the stalls I fully expected it to be classed as a runner.  With hindsight, I think that the authorities wish they'd done the same.

Aviboyd.

I guess that's because they had to hear/see all evidence. I don't know why the weighed in was called before the judgement was announced.

My ante post best lost on Speculative Bid unless NRNB as been advised by Bet365. Are other bookies doing the same?

Listonfp


Shouldn't lose Antepost. Rules for AP stop on morning of the race so I believe .

Facts - it's an almighty mess, the real loser at the end of this will be the sport itself - as is usually the case when a c0ck up has been made by the clueless numpties who administer the sport.  Central raceday stewarding the only way forward imo...

alladin , im with you .. if i was on speculative bid and stalls opens and the horse just stood there i would of thought ... ive done my cash in .. expected it to be classed as runner .

From RP Analyis:

Even with eight non-runners, most of which were priced up at about 20-1 and longer, this was a really difficult handicap to unravel.

The field split into three groups, and supporters of the fairly short-priced favourite got no run for their money, as Speculative Bid had his head in the adjacent stall as the gates flew open.

After the race, the stewards enforced a rule put in place by the BHA a few years previously, seemingly never used before, which covers horses denied a fair start, and declared David Elsworth´s gelding a non-runner despite being in the stalls.

The horses head was over the stalls of bushcraft , why was he not declared a NR as well

its all good and well if you was on the favourite , you get your money back .. what about all thoose on heavens guest .. who have lost **** loads on the rule 4 .. the must be right pissed ..
never mind .. just watch see what happens if it was to happen again , i bet your life it would be counted as a runner ..

The horse has now officially been decalred a runner by the track and they have acknowledged their error by initially calling it a Non runner.....FACT

im left counting the cost of this almighty balls up...

had over a century ew for the winner

nearly 450 for speculative bid


gave the 450 back and non runner on any multi's

cant wait to get out this game

From the "sporting life"


NR (25)        3 Field Of Dream    J A Osborne    8    9-6    T J Murphy    25/1
NR (27)        6 Jallota    C Hills    4    9-4    Jim Crowley    16/1
NR (5)        9 Belgian Bill    George Baker    7    9-3    W Buick    16/1
NR (12)        10 Ayaar (IRE)    L M Cumani    5    9-3    L Dettori    10/1
NR (21)        14 Unforgiving Minute    C G Cox    4    9-1    S J Drowne    14/1
NR (11)        20 Firmdecisions (IRE)    D K Ivory    5    8-11    P Cosgrave    20/1
NR (26)        25 Sir Robert Cheval    M Botti    4    8-8    M M Monaghan (3)    33/1
NR (7)        26 Redvers (IRE)    E F Vaughan    7    8-7    Hayley Turner    25/1
Also Ran

Speculative Bid (IRE),

so what we are saying here is that if a horse comes under starters orders, even though that particular call can be an error on the starter's part (plainly the case here - as how can a horse with it's head in another stall and no jockey on it's back come under starters orders?) then the horse is a runner and it's tough luck on the punters who have backed it?

what we have is another shambolic horse racing c0ck up overseen by the wonderful bha and their dogsbodies

if you want a rule that can call nrs after a race fine, but have the common sense to know how the industry 9including the exchanges) works

they should be issued with water pistols and clown masks before being allowed into the stewards room

Jul 25, 2015 -- 10:45AM, carrot1960 wrote:

The horses head was over the stalls of bushcraft , why was he not declared a NR as well

there wasn't a stalls handler in with him and the jockey was properly mounted.  The decision to declare the horse a non runner isn't the problem.  The problem is announcing a late stewards and utterly bizarrely announcing "weighed in" when there was an enquiry.

well at least we agree dave

Have betfair made an announcement for exchange punters?

"Shouldn't lose Antepost. Rules for AP stop on morning of the race so I believe"

Completely untrue. If this was the case all entrants would still be entered up until that point.

We can argue all we want but the official result says that the horse was a non runner,bit like saying "the ref was wrong ,it was not a goal"

brassneck - it has been decalred a runner now

The rack have acknowledged their error

*track

the stewards that were on duty today should not be allowed to work again, they are beyond a joke

Jamie spencer was not on the horse when the race started,you can not allow a horse to run without a jockey.

Head over side of adjacent stall as they opened and failed to emerge

that's good news purple,i layed it.SO THE BOOKIES WILL ALL HAVE TO RUN DOWN THE HIGH STREETS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TO GET THEIR MONEY BACK.

exactly - nice to see them quickly refund thinking it is good PR and then realise it has been an almighty balls up by doing so - i expect the R4 would have been preferred

Can someone qualify - in Betfair terms was this a runner or not -ie have they paid lay punters and takne the cash off backers?

Cheers

Its black and white . The horse clearly came under orders and anything similar that has happened in the past 50 years or so has been declared a runner , so whats different today ?

yeah but in real terms what are they doing - are they paying layers then?

Yes they have too.

So the next time a jockey fails to remove the blindfold in time in a 5 furlong sprint,and loses 10 lengths the stewards will have to declare the horse a non runner ,after all it was not with the field just like speculative bid ?

they have to honour the layers despite the horse being declared a NR - how are they justifying that?

Surel a backer on a NR gets their money back? Or do BF have alternative t&cs?

WH,LAD refunding bets

the horse was not declared a non runner

ok thanks, guess its a weighed in thing then..

Just listened to a debate with Jamie Steer and Dave Nevison which made the situation harder to understand. I had a small bet on Speculative Bid so did my money as I expected before the announcement but how can I lose money on a non runner?

It was declared a non runner until they realised that some plonker had announced weighed in before they broadcast the decision.

was on course and shortly after the stewards was announced they also said it does not effect the placings so basically giving the nod to pay out on the result despite the fact the stewards was ongoing. Not saying they got it right but may explain why result was settled before stewards completed

credit to skybet who treated it as a nr

bet365 not refunding

Jul 25, 2015 -- 12:08PM, carrot1960 wrote:

So the next time a jockey fails to remove the blindfold in time in a 5 furlong sprint,and loses 10 lengths the stewards will have to declare the horse a non runner ,after all it was not with the field just like speculative bid ?

No they won't.  In fact they probably won't ever use the rule again.

Sean@sean14  · 3h ago

Sean in Manchester bought some decking with the as yet uncollected Speculative Bid returned stake money and is now in peril

Why is more not being made of the starters error?.
In the context of the rules yeah the horse came under orders so had to be deemed a runner, that I accept, but it never should have done so as the jockey wasn't even on it's back!
To compare it with a jockey failing to remove a blindfold in time is like comparing night and day. That particular example is a pre determined move on the part of jockey under instructions from a trainer and failure to remove the blindfold in time is jockey error, in today's case I very much doubt the jockey said he would have the horse's head in the next door stall and be standing on the bars of the stalls and not sitting on the horse when the stalls opened!!

A horse must have a jockey on board as the race starts to be a runner.
most people who know about racing know this information.
but the casual punter may not know this.

In the real world the head steward should have announced an enquiry  as soon as they passed the post. It was clear to see after one extra look they should have then declared it a non runner.

everyone knew it way a non runner ,Richard Hoyles(think that's his name) said it has to be a non runner because spencer was not on board.Nick Luck confused the issue by saying "if you backed the fav I feel for you"we will have to wait and see what happened.
It is the rules no jockey on board =non runner.
And it is used every day in jumping.if the jockey is left sitting on a horse at the start its a runner.if he is dislodged before the tapes go up he is a non runner.

Amazing it was a heavily backed favourite as well - obviously just a coincidence ;-)

its got no chance!

Jul 25, 2015 -- 5:01PM, Steamship wrote:

In the real world the head steward should have announced an enquiry

Complete shambles. But dare I ask if it was a 20/1 shot would there have been as much fuss ?

what I learned Sunday forum

starter CAN declare a horse a N/R,independent of stewards

but has to do it before weigh-in

Indeed. So much hubris involved the whole incident. Starter let them go with the jockey standing in the stalls, clearly off the horse and should have declared it a NR there and then. That would have course meant admitting to his own error in the first instance.

xmoneyx     25 Jul 15 19:11 
bet365 not refunding




They have me !

nice

prob because of others bookies stance

Betfair sportsbook ---> Non runner
Betfair exchange --> Runner



So... LOL

Its very clear ....    the horse was a NR ....   and a Runner  that should clear things up .

Except  it's not funny is it. What's their reasoning for  this discrepancy ?

Zippa the voice of reason

Facts Only they know   us mugs have no idea
hope you did not pay out  twice

Come Racing  its a rip off

Betfair exchange awful cm service not voiding trades on Speculative Bid

Jul 26, 2015 -- 6:53AM, goldstein. wrote:

Betfair exchange awful cm service not voiding trades on Speculative Bid

They can't because it was declared a runner in the end (I think) so layers will be demanding their money.

Under the BHA rules of racing the horse was declared a non runner but for betting purposes the horse was declared a runner.

What a complete joke.

I never had a bet in the race but in all my years of horse racing this is the worst incident regarding gambling I have ever come across.

Big repercussions for Ascot management personnel to follow and rightly so. No excuses.

11kv  its years since ive been racing in England   why the travel , the exes ,  poor value   halseto get a good bet on ...  the weather 
sit at home now  glass  or 2  of JD  ...  play on here  better prices  ..back or lay  ...
4.00  ITS over  most days  .. then  drinks in the summer house  ... I got a good life outside of Betfair

Goldstein.... betfair  are not bookies    they took the only course  open to them   it was a runner
think about this  their market was a million  plus
on course books    had nothing like that

ZIPPER:
I go so that I can see the horses up close and note them for the future and for the atmosphere. I prefer to see it live and a can watch replays later. it is still a good day out.

Jul 26, 2015 -- 6:57AM, FELTFAIR wrote:

Under the BHA rules of racing the horse was declared a non runner but for betting purposes the horse was declared a runner.What a complete joke.I never had a bet in the race but in all my years of horse racing this is the worst incident regarding gambling I have ever come across.Big repercussions for Ascot management personnel to follow and rightly so. No excuses.

yeah right - they'll maybe get sent on a course, if they can spare the time.  This is the 21st century no one ever takes responsibility for anything and hasn't done for years.

this was a bit of a fiasco. Haven't seen anything like it from a betting view in over 25 years. Surely the post must have something to say about it?. I seem to have received my lay money from betfair on Speculative Bid and also had money refunded by bookies as a non runner. All seems a bit confusing. Maybe  J Spencer needs to be more awake at the start. clearly he loves hold up tactics and i wonder whether he is on the ball sometimes at the start/early part of the race. I mentioned before the race my only concern was the jockey. Lot of money for the horse and all.

is it correct that all bookmakers returned stakes on speculative bid?

betfair didn't

high street.

adge  ok your a course bookie , but read my  post 26 july..... 13.02  if the result cost you millions  what would you do  .

adged  when betfair  put the markets up over night   say 2.30  Ascot 8 runners   they pay 3 places  post time 2 come out  its still  3 to place   none of the books do that

adged I think you course  bookies would have a very good case to take the  stewards  and  BHB   to the high court to recover your loses  .... it was a fiasco    you would have a good case

I'm pleased to say I was at York on Saturday , zipper.
as regards my friends at ascot the afternoon became very ugly as the bookmakers knew the rules and the racecourse and announcers clearly didn't which made the whole episode one not to part of. one bookmaker was assaulted [ punched in the face ] and was only rescued by other punters as all security had gone into hiding. this whole nasty situation is being investigated at various sources.
a number of books are boycotting the shergar cup meeting [ I wish all of them would ]
as regards your each way situation..bookmakers are not allowed to change to 1/8th odds each way to pay 3 places

The excuse for the 2 different interpretations was that he was a non runner under BHA rules but a runner under Tattersalls rules that govern betting. Strange but true.

nasty situation for on-course bookies

Can someone here explain how Betfair on the exchange is not following the stewards decision that it was a non runner? I don't understand. I didn't back it for much but that's not the point, it was deemed a non-runner

its was a non runner on sportsbook

weigh-in course declared it a runner,i think

im totally confused now

Horseracing

    13.1General
        All individual race markets will be determined according to the official result at the time of the 'weigh-in' announcement (or equivalent). Subsequent disqualifications, appeals or amendments to the result will be disregarded.

bradley - horse was a runner at the time of weigh-in, so Betfair simply followed its own rules.  Stewards then declared it a non-runner, but this was after the weigh-in, so Betfair wasn't obliged to do anything as it acted within its own rules. 

Decision was then changed AGAIN to reinstate it as a runner, which was the correct decision (imvho).  So official ruling is that the horse was a runner and, sadly, you've done your money.

Just to add, please everyone check your returns at the books.  I've just had to badger a decent sized book to settle the e/w bets on the race correctly, as the rule 4 was still not refunded.  Suspect the book in question will refund those who ask and not bother with those who don't/forget.

rob, got all that, according to the post hills and laddies refunded stakes o speculative bid, did koral and fred?

Can't tell you, I'm afraid.  Can't bet with either.  Hills did settle each way winners correctly in the end without prompting, fwiw.

adge   first thank you for your reply    I could not agree more   sorry about your pals  re hassle  but you have   been there do that  ..so have I   years ago  ... the trouble is the racecourse  don't provide  the security    on Saturdays     drunken mob .. its all about selling booze    and  rock concerts  after racing  they don't give a toss  about you or public  safety

What did the Tote do, mate tells me he got his money back, and the dividends look light on the Winner, did they take SB stake money out of the pools? If so how do the customers know that they are on a non-runner?

the tote is owned  by BET FRED     enough  said

bets on the tote went on Lincoln, the joint 2nd fav with the lowest racecard number.