Golden Horn and Soft Ground??.

no chance of him running, already soft ground and still pelting it down

tmrws fields will be decimated

They have suspended play at Sunningdale due to flooding. Decision at 3.00 whether there will be any more play today. You could hit a drive from Sunningdale to Ascot.

Clever Cookie looks good for a place now  Golden Horn might not run on soft

if clever cookie wins it wont do much for the prestige of the race........if it gets really heavy its not impossible

it would be lapped on fast going

Champs   ground don't matter   .. and hes a CHAMP

Champs,  ok if they get their ideal  going  they will hose up , but say  its not ideal  they will still win   ....why  cause  there  CHAMPS    ... history tells you that

He'd better bloody win.

I couldn't take the hype about Eagle Top being better than Frankel after he romps to a wide-margin win in the mud over the already 130-rated Derby winner.

Massive decision to be made by the owner. Trainer probably knows the going isn't ideal. Even a top animal like Frankel nearly lost on that kind of going at Ascot. Golden horn worth a small fortune stud wise. I'd pull him out. Why take the chance ? Simply no longer summer going.

Bet trainer wishes the Irish Derby winner was involved now.

Zipper is correct -- good horses can WIN on any ground.Brigadier Gerard was the prime example.

Eagle Top has no form on ground with give in it.

Backed Madame Chiang at 40 and went in again for a little bit more at 29. Overpriced on ground which will suit her.

Flintshire NR

Flintshire the first non runner, surely won't be the last.

Not sure the anorak chance to beat Golden Horn if he runs and oppourtunity to win /place in a weak King George if he doesnt.

My gut instinct is connections will not run Golden Horn and they will go to York and I write this with a heavy heart having backed at 2.70 directly after the Eclipse.  I'm sure GH can handle soft and is clear on form but having to quicken off it... 1m2f they might take the risk 1m4f not worth it as if it gets beat they next race could affect it's stud value if it get's beat again.  That's why they won't run.

My understanding is the course was watered at the beginning of the week.  The forecast tomorrow is sun and showers and it may well depend if somehow the showers stay away from Ascot which unfortunately does not drain particularly well.

It's been raining most of the day and plenty of puddles. Will NOT run, pity there's not a market to bet yes/no

They have to protect his stud value in my opinion why take the chance.

John Gosden will wait until Saturday morning before deciding whether to let Golden Horn run in the King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Stakes after heavy rain at Ascot saw conditions significantly deteriorate on the eve of the famous race.

THE changing ground at Ascot has claimed its first major casualty with the Andre Fabre-trained Flintshire being withdrawn from the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes after the track was hit with 22mm rain on Friday.
While jockeys felt earlier in the afternoon that the description of soft was accurate, Paul Hanagan was of the opinion conditions had eased further.
Following his ride on Mukhmal in the 4.35 he said the ground was "heavy".

Ascot 16.05 1m 2f Soft Winners Time 2m 13.24s (slow by 8.24s)
Ascot 14.55 2 Miles Soft Winners Time 3m 39.61s (slow by 16.61s)

why doesn't clever cookie wait till goodwood next week?

2m perfect trip, should be some give in the ground. Would really fancy it there.

1m 4f to short unless very heavy and a load of non runners.

But as they say great horses go on any going. As long as its not a bog tomorrow or very heavy golden horn should take his chance.

good place prize money on offer........gelding so no breeding..........all about the money

why wait for goodwood

CC has its conditions and will never have a better chance in a G1 race worth £1.15m.

16grand for 6th and there might only be 6 runners!!!!

true Cardiff but I would really fancy him next thurs

win at goodwood more money than 3rd at ascot.

still if golden horn comes out and 1 or 2 more then I guess he could nip a place even win if its a bog.

but I want to back him over 2m on soft ground rather than 1m4f against group 1 horses

should think of us small punters

.....and could probably run next week too

Result. Backed Madame Chiang earlier today at 40 & 29 and she's into 19 now.

I think there are two choices, either back the favourite or leave the race alone. Different story if there were top class soft ground performers in opposition.

no way would I back an even money shot when I dont know whether it goes on the extreme of ground

his rating and form have been gained on fast ground

I would not be prepared to take evens to find out if he acts on soft/heavy

Stamina doubts before the Dante .......can't see them running him over 12 furlongs on soft or heavy ground .

Looking at the price you would have to think his participation is in doubt. I'm gonna take the chance that JG will run him , and evens looks massive if that's the case. Nothing to lose. If he runs, he wins. Gosden knows.

I am pretty sure he will run and you know why?...Because Big John has never won the race and he wants it bad that's why.

^^ Er, apart from when he won it last year, obviously...

Obviousley.....Just got back from the pub.

Or even in 2011 with Nathaniel.

Forget that post please.

66s Chaing & 40s CC for me

Worst renewal in memory.

Monjeu, Hurricane Run, Generous, Lamtarra, Nashwan, Shergar etc etc.........2015...Clever Cookie who got turned over up at Musslebrough by one of McCains

Golden Horn will not run well at this level on soft ground, I hope Gosden withdraws him.

I hope it runs, to prove he is top notch.

Most Cape Cross offspring go on all goings.

Owner has already stated its a big doubt , William hill radio announced .

Hard to believe a horse who was beaten in the Scottish champion hurdle not to long ago could possibly win Ascot's biggest flat prize.

Doesnt have a chance unless they change the distance.

Cape Cross offspring don't go on any ground, they have a distinct preference for firmish ground, did you dream they go on any ground mate.

Radio stating trainer wants the horse to run. But a joint decision will be made tomorrow morning. So I guess it's 50-50 then ?

Horn not a certain runner

The persistent rain mirrored the weakness of Golden Horn at the head of the King George market, and owner Anthony Oppenheimer, who dreams of winning the prize with which his family business enjoyed a 34-year association, has cast doubt on the chances of his unbeaten Investec Derby winner lining up.

"What I don't want is for him to struggle through soft ground when we know his distance is always slightly suspect, have a terrible race and finish at the back," said Oppenheimer on Friday. "That would be very disappointing for everybody.

"No-one will have the slightest clue until tomorrow morning. It will be a matter of a fluke as to whether they get one of those big bursts of rain. If it's very heavy he certainly won't run, it wouldn't be fair on him."

IS.......no rain forecast for tomoro........ascot drains well

heard the owner before talking about the Arc and breeders cup.

seemed he didn't want to run him in either of them. Seems he wants golden horn to run in races where he cannot get beat.

Not sure why he doesn't just retire the horse now.

no rain forecast after 1am, Sunny after with temp 22. track have had new drainage on the straight coarse installed 2004.

He never said he did not want to go to the Arc ,why would he not want to run in Europe's best race ?
He has waited long enough for a food un and cany imagine he is itching to retire .
Its a very hard decision for the connections ,but owner is a  diamond geezer and will do whats best for the horse
GH has had a few hard races already this season and doubt a grueling  this soon is a great idea if they have an eye on anything else .
Of course horse could win easily ,JD knows what to do but will be owners decision for sure imo .

I see Flinty came out ,does anyone know what price horse was at withdrawal ?
was there any movement before withdrawal ?

*good un

"Hard to believe a horse who was beaten in the Scottish champion hurdle not to long ago could possibly win Ascot's biggest flat prize."

The opposite is also true, hard to believe nowadays a flat horse that could win the Scottish CH or any top race over hurdles, not mentioning the big one..


"Not sure why he doesn't just retire the horse now."
They need the Arc if they want to retire him at 3. The Derby and another 2 group wins aren't enough to attract the big big money as a stallion. Unless of course he stays in training as 4yo to prove he's the real deal, not just a flash in the pan like most 3yo's(Camelot as prime example)

"I think the problem with the Arc and the Champion Stakes is the ground. Often both are run on soft ground and I don't think that would suit his action at all.

"Good to soft wouldn't be a problem, if it was worse than that it could be a problem.

"I've no intention of selling the horse. I would want to have some sort of control over the horse when he goes to stud and I want him to go to stud, if possible, in Newmarket.

"As for racing next year, I am not enthusiastic. It's not something I really feel strongly about, but I would prefer not to.

"The Arc could easily be his last race. The Arc late entry (stage) is only about three and a half days before the race so we could wait and see.

"If the ground was heavy or soft we wouldn't enter."


Will run in the arc if conditions suit then

very unlikely to run as a 4 year old either, judging by the owners above quote.

as for the breeders cup:

"I spoke to John Gosden earlier this year and he wasn't at all enthusiastic about going to the Breeders' Cup and I rather agree with him, but that was a while ago," said Oppenheimer.

"It's a rather tricky race but I wouldn't rule out anything, especially if we have heavy ground in the autumn and we can't run him.

"Maybe we have to do something like that, but it's certainly not on the menu at the moment.

cardifffc   

24 Jul 15 15:36 
Joined:   10 Oct 03      | Topic/replies: 7,242  | Blogger: cardifffc's blog   



if clever cookie wins it wont do much for the prestige of the race........if it gets really heavy its not impossible

That's definitely true... I'm hoping Golden Horn runs from a class perspective regardless of ground.

There is absolutely no doubt about Golden Horn getting the distance and he should be able to cope with soft.  He should eat this lot for breakfast even if the ground hinders his kick.  I hope the run but fear they won't if the ground is gluey. The money for Clever Cookie beggars belief and just convinces me there is plenty of fruit cakes around (did you seen what I did ).  Anybody looking for an alternative surely should be on Snow Sky e/w?

desert orchid the renowned champion 2 mile chaser WON THE CHELTENHAM GOLD CUP OVER 3 MILES 2 FURLONGS oN BOTTOMLESS HEAVY GOING(THE RACE WAS NEARLY CALLRD OFF)

the next year on good to firm ground ( i was there it was 19c i only wore t shirt jumper it was that warm)

he ran well but finished 3rd at 10-11, but there were quite a few welsh fans going mad near me who had bet nortons coin at 200-1

( i was there it was 19c i only wore t shirt jumper it was that warm)

and jeans and socks shoes (but went commando though) as i do now as i want to keep my knackers after a mate of mine had to depart with one of his because he was told it was because of his underwear)

CLEVER COOKIE turns over the fav tday

My best win in this race was in 1960 when Aggressor won on bad ground beating Petite Etoile and Parthia. Today this ground must suit Madame Chiang just as well if Jamie's mind set can cope with the needed tactics.

graham lee master tactition

This is surely the biggest no brainer ever? The Ascot ground is dodgy enough at the best of times, never mind after a deluge.

They simply have to pull him out IMO.

35 mm of Rain fell on the track
With todays Sun, people are saying it will be a Gluepot unless the Clerk of Course adds 5mm of Water before racing

SINCE WHEN DID A HORSE OUT OF CAPE CROSS NOT LIKE CUT

HORSE WILL WIN DOING HANDSTANDS FILLY'S ALLOW PLUS 3YR OLD ALLOW
THEY SHOULD BE BACKING THE DISTANCE HERE

"HORSE WILL WIN DOING HANDSTANDS FILLY'S ALLOW PLUS 3YR OLD ALLOW"

That would be helpful if he wasn't a colt Mart.

yes johnny tad early i stand corrected but it will win its the same fillys allow against colts 8-9 must have through me , it ran in the derby

You gotta laugh JM.

I reckon Gosden and co will be laughing their socks off later. Probably been hoovering up all the even money over the last twenty four hours. This horse is different class, on any going.

In the past 20 years, Older horses (4 Year olds+) have Won 15 Times.

I hope it runs, 2.2 ante post (although it had drifted to almost that last night). I came over on Thursday, Ascot later today. Personally I think it will run ........ and win cosily

biggest cert since sherar in derby i may stand alone Andrea but i really think horses out of cape cross are better with cut , no one wants a bog but if its soft its hi hoe hi hoe 10 len easy imo

Without doubt the best horse in the race by a fair bit, if it goes as well with cut there should only be one result.

Cape Cross is a stallion not a mare as well. It's by Cape Cross not out of him mart.

IF Golden Horn runs I'll be doing the tricast with his 3 runners. I think John Gosden likes to show-off sometimes

gosden walking the track hour before racing

fillies mares, weight allowance,g1, zarkova ,treve.

It'll run. Ascot has great drainage and not rained since 1am. Sun is out too

Considering all this hysteria about the rain/ground you would think Gosden is swimming the track before racing.  I'm' walking just down the road in Virgina Water near the totem pole and the grass here is not as soft was I expected to be honest.  It is mostly sunny and quite windy with the occasional ominous cloud covering the sun which causes the temp to drop quite a lot.

Ascot had new drainage last year so maybe the track won't be as soft as it used to get.  I'm getting more confident it will run now.

SINCE WHEN DID A HORSE OUT OF CAPE CROSS NOT LIKE CUT Confused

HORSE WILL WIN DOING HANDSTANDS FILLY'S ALLOW PLUS 3YR OLD ALLOW
THEY SHOULD BE BACKING THE DISTANCE HERE

gosdens vet should get an award imo

He's not running LOL

what a joke flat racing is

the only thing they are looking after is its stud value.

"How dare trainers look after their horses"

you could make that claim if the ground was FIRM, but soft or heavy is not affecting the horse in any way other than his performance. Its clear that most 3yo's are overrated, the real champion stay in training at 4yo and take on any opposition, any ground. Franel's last race was on much softer ground than today, facing much more superior opposition with mud-lovers CDA and Nathaniel rated higher even than Golder Horn. How can people compare GH with Frankel is ridiculous.

Snow Sky for me now. All the way.

doesnt even look that soft

Like I said earlier in the thread.....Cape Cross stock do not like soft ground and have a distinct preference for Good Firmish ground, clearly Gosden knows that, even if a few of the flat earth society on here dispute that simple fact. Im not a fan of Gosden, but he has made the right decision this time round, the horse would have been all over the place on soft ground, so why risk that.

Are all ante-post bets refunded?

I dont think so....thats the chance you take with AP

I thought once they were declared to run it's a refund?

it would have said...??

‘Non runner No Bet’ or ‘Ante Post rules apply’

So stupid. The horse would have won even easier in those conditions.

It did look very soft until they came into the straight.  Interesting that winner has only ever won on firm ground before today thought and time was fast if the ground was very soft.

Winning Time 2m 31.25s (slow by 2.65s)
All todays time`s show the Ground much better than yesterday,
G.Horn would have Won 2 Lengths+

Golden Horn would have won that race doing handstands on any going.

So ironic that the ill informed idea that the ground was against him was also wrong as it was in fact gd/stf. The clock never lies.

So so stupid.

Glad to see the horse beaten in the Scottish champion hurdle didn't win it. Poorest King George race I've seen since Kings Theatre won it back in the 90s.

Has there been a worse winner in the last 30 yrs ?

So much for the old canard that real champions can run on any ground. 
And of course Postponed had never run on any ground other than good or firm.

vubiant........brigadier gerard on the rare occasion he ran on soft he won but was well below his best