Any thoughts Ryan Moore or Lester Piggott at their peak ?

I'm a little surprised a few rate Moore so lightly ?

Joke comparison, Moore lucky to be riding amongst a bunch of second raters.

6 English classics for Moore and he's 31. Not that great compared to the long fella's 30

Yes there is a big difference just now but Moore would be top class in any era. Would still have Piggott no 1 and Moore no2 in ENGLISH jockeys.

Im going to throw Joe Mercer in the ring.

Him and the Brigadeer.

If you've never seen them check out the rides Piggott gave Commanche Run and Fairy Footsteps on Youtube - no other jockey would have won those two horses a Classic, imho...

Royal Academy was a sublime ride for a man riding at that age. truly remarkable

Lester,fallon,carson,roberts all ridden for me sadly not moore. Lester was in a class of his own.

To be fair Piggot had  serious opposition Moore is up against donkeys Doyle\Kingscote etc

One was the best jockey ever and Moore isn't

Sorry forgot to add Spencer to that list

Lester was awesome. He could win on the bit by a short head with the result never in doubt.

Moore is very good but Lester set the bar and he's still there, if you look through other sports there's not many still the same from 50 years ago, Don Bradman is the only other to come to me at the mo.

I happened to be at a casino as a young fella when Robert Sangster got married and the overflow moved in..

Spotted Lester at the Punto Banco table and asked for a tip...

He said something like phuck orf and I was so pleased that I had another large one..

No phone cameras in those days so the legends could walk at will...

Eddery , sorry pat the tw*t your having a laugh.

Piggott was brilliant, his rivals being Scobie Breasly, Dougie Smith, Jimmy Lindley, Willie Carson, Pat Eddery,Steve Cauthen.
Moore seems to be still improving, his peers being Frankie Dettori, Kieren Fallon, Jamie Spencer, Paul Harahan, Richard Hughes, Johnny Murtagh. Two exceptional horsemen, just favour The Longfellow.

Piggott was brilliant, his rivals being Scobie Breasly, Dougie Smith, Jimmy Lindley, Willie Carson, Pat Eddery,Steve Cauthen.
Moore seems to be still improving, his peers being Frankie Dettori, Kieren Fallon, Jamie Spencer, Paul Harahan, Richard Hughes, Johnny Murtagh. Two exceptional horsemen, just favour The Longfellow.

Very different styles and different rules as well. Lester would get a ban every day if he rode now like he did in his pomp. He was brilliant though and I saw him many times. Two memories-one when he won a Kings Stand for Jack Ormston around 1964. I was near the rail at Ascot and when he went past me, the horse looked absolutely terrified. Not sure what Lester did to it but it worked. The other was at Sandown towards the end of his career. He rode the winner of the last which I had backed on a credit account so I watched from the car park and jumped into the car as fast as I could to head back down the M3. Imagine my surprise when I stopped for an ice cream at Hampton Court bridge to find Lester in front of me buying an Ice cream! He was on his way to Heathrow to ride in France the next day. He happily signed my race card and looked totally relaxed. Amazing man.
No one who watched Ryan at Newbury yesterday can be in any doubt that he is also exceptional but you don't see him riding other jockeys into the rails or using his whip like a windmill.

Good point about the rule change regarding whip use.

Moore a competent journeyman but Piggott had that spark of genius.

Lester by a country mile, shame he was hooky so often, but money interested Lester far more than winning.

I watched from the car park and jumped into the car as fast as I could to head back down the M3. Imagine my surprise when I stopped for an ice cream at Hampton Court bridge to find Lester in front of me buying an Ice cream! He was on his way to Heathrow to ride in France the next day. He happily signed my race card and looked totally relaxed. Amazing man.

WALOFS

He told me to fork off as well when trying to get his autograph at York. Great guy

No contest. Piggot by a mile.

Piggot all day long and feel he was against better jockeys in his day but yes I am knocking on too

A palomine was Piggots vallet for a while............told some stories..............I knew Ryan a bit as a lad............ Quiet..I feel that he will progress not only as a jock but in his next venture..........................BIG DAY/BIG RACE there fighting over him

The Pig..................poise/ballance.................A Legend

When I was a youngster old timers used to say that Sir Gordon Richards was the greatest.  For my money Steve Cauthen was great and may just have been the best on a front runner but Lester is a star. He has charisma.

Yes Cauthen was top. This lad had it all strength, timing, balance, hands. and brilliant judge of pace. For me he was one of the best I ever saw, but Lester was better

piggott's presence alone would add thousands onto a gate ... in the same way as spandau ballet singing a few songs after racing does nowadays

There have been so many good jockeys. Murtagh,Fallon , Hughes and Dettori have all been seen to great effect and let us not forget Scobie.

Remember going to Pontefract probably about 25 years ago. The Barney Curley runner Threshfield was running in a Handicap with top weight of 10 stone in the days when jockeys did not have to be declared until late on. In the paper there was just a blank where the jockeys  name would appear. Who showed up on the beast but Lester who proceeded to win by a very comfortable margin at a very healthy price. I stood in awe at this sporting giant at a small Yorkshire course and was hooked on racing. Lester the greatest for me.

Not a bad guess TMB, it was 7/8/91, a little artistic licence used with the healthy price perhaps, as it went off 11/10f and won all out by a head, then again maybe if it should have been 1/5 then 11/10 could be considered healthy...!

By coincidence Piggott in that race beat into second another great rider, Tony Cruz who was riding Spurned for Ian Balding, though he spent that year based in the UK riding Ecurie Fustok's horses for Mohammed Moubarak.

I first watched Lester in the early 1960s and without doubt at his peak he is the greatest jockey i've ever seen. Each generation throws up a couple of great jockeys Lester and Scobie ; Lester and George Moore; Lester and  Cauthen ;Dettori and Fallon etc. Nowadays Ryan Moore is riding at the top of his game and if he keeps up his present standard of riding for another ten years then perhaps a comparison could be made. Bear in mind Lester's peak lasted twenty years;Ryan's peak has been going approx 18 months !

Lester Piggott was on his own.

Does anyone know the amount of meetings late 60s to mid 70s compared to today , or horses in training then compared to today

I would imagine maybe 50% less tho i cant be sure , a lot less anyway

i doubt piggot would jock as many off today , or be on the best horse as often , its like comparing footballers from different eras, almost impossible

Sorry to come to this so late. Having watched him from the early sixties, I have Piggott clearly first (although he had untold advantages over other jocks) followed by Cauthen and Mercer, and then I'd have Moore just ahead of Starkey (Yes really!!).  I'd guess that anyone who has Doug Smith or Scobie Breasley in their top ten is relying on stats, or what they've read, rather than experience of seeing them ride.

Sorry to come to this so late. Having watched him from the early sixties, I have Piggott clearly first (although he had untold advantages over other jocks) followed by Cauthen and Mercer, and then I'd have Moore just ahead of Starkey (Yes really!!).  I'd guess that anyone who has Doug Smith or Scobie Breasley in their top ten is relying on stats, or what they've read, rather than experience of seeing them ride.

Sorry meant to add a comment on the quote "Piggott's presence alone would add thousands to the gate". This is a hard one to verify or quantify, but is surely total bollo cks.

FIVE YEARS after Lester Piggott attracted huge crowds to Tralee, Frankie Dettori will follow in the great man's footsteps by riding at the Co Kerry track tonight.
Racecourse officials are hoping Dettori will have the same effect on the turnstiles as the "long fella" did. "Lester came five years ago and we had about 7,000 people," Pat Green, the course manager, said yesterday.

surely ...

Ryan Moore has already been the best riding in the Uk for approximately 10 years and the best in the world for at least a few years. In big races no one comes close to Piggott but Moore is one who could by the end of his riding career. He's already easily the best since Lester imo. And anyone who thinks the standard of jockeys 40 years ago is better than now is letting nostalgia get the better of them. As in virtually all sports the competitors have become more professional, stronger and fitter. Lester Piggott was an exception because of his sheer genius.

Was Lester really that grumpy as a few posts have suggested ?
I do agree Steve Cauthen was brilliant at his best.

Piggott for me, in a class of his own. Moore falls into group of very good jockeys.

This is always worth a chuckle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH3S5kq2oSg

May 18, 2015 -- 9:42AM, asparagus wrote:

Ryan Moore has already been the best riding in the Uk for approximately 10 years and the best in the world for at least a few years. In big races no one comes close to Piggott but Moore is one who could by the end of his riding career. He's already easily the best since Lester imo. And anyone who thinks the standard of jockeys 40 years ago is better than now is letting nostalgia get the better of them. As in virtually all sports the competitors have become more professional, stronger and fitter. Lester Piggott was an exception because of his sheer genius.

Spot on. He's one of those people whose depth of talent hasn't properly been gauged by the wider public. Champ in 2006, 2008, 2009 would probably suprise a few, and largely kept off the top spot since as a result of being retained by a comparatively small (and sometimes out of form) stable - as well as, perhaps, a weakening desire for that particular prize.

Im a massive Fallon fan. At his peak he was a fabulous jockey who won loads of races no other jockey riding at the time would have won on.

A lot of, everything "was better in the old days" brigade on this thread!!!

cork langer when i saw who was riding this and his only ride i backed this at 6/4 could not believe the price can still see the race now and i think only lester would have won on this

Piggott.  He told owners and trainers what he would ride which give a clue.

Lester the King ,Hard as nails,especially when riding for his father inlaw.

Bankit. Piggot was different class. Just like the old education system.

U beat me to it ^^^

Good morning Mange! I am also fed up of bloody predictive texts! Another modern phenomena that screws up my compositions. We are living in a world where thinking for oneself is fast disappearing. I wonder how today's " Settlers" would have fared against those that could.......IN THE OLD DAYS!

It usted to be great fun in the office..............esp when I was chalking

Hahaha. All the punters facing the list of runners and listening to the old Extel commentary . It rarely resembled the actual race!  No  bloody dimwits on fobts either!    Hmmmm.......no Betfair though. Perhaps a rethink is required. Anyway, Lester was still the best!!!

As much as I like Moore I'd have to go with Lester. Perhaps I'm also guilty of believing all sport was better in 'those' days, particularly the great boxers of the seventies to mid-eighties compared to the tripe we have now.

Not much between Piggott and Eddery, they could both Hold anything, but I think they would do Moore in a Finish,
Pat did Not ride for as many years as Lester.
Eddery;
Was champion Flat jockey 11 times between 1974 and 1996, registering 209 wins in his best year, 1990.
When he retired in 2003, he had ridden the winners of 4,632 British Flat races, including 14 Classics,
He also rode 11 Classic winners in Ireland, where he was champion jockey in 1982, and 5 in France.
Other major international successes included the 1985 Breeders' Cup Turf on Pebbles, the 1991 Breeders Cup Sprint on Sheikh Albadou and the 1986 Japan Cup on Jupiter Island.

brough scott to lester,"wot tactics will u use to beat w shumaker",reply, "put him in a straight jacket"

Lester by a length and a half - but I would say that .......

Ryan's definitely the best hockey out there at the moment.

Lester could still out ride him well 6 days out of seven anyway

Kinane & Murtagh both better  than Moore.


Great  rider tho.

when moore wins 8 more derbies we can discuss this

No contest. Lester the best ever AND I remember the day of his first winner and the reaction to it.

Secret Code

No, just checked, the chase.

same here for me, piggot was the master ! a one off !

Lester by far the best. Moore the best around now but nowhere near Piggot's level.

Steve Cauthen, Mick Kinane, Johnny Murtagh all better than Moore.  Wally Swinburn, Willie Carson about as good.

Forgot to add Fallon also.

remember back in the 70s I was skint  but my younger brother who had no interest in racing had some money saved up and I managed to convince him a horse piggot was riding that afternoon would win  and I said to my brother put £40on it ( a lot of dough for me or my brother in those days ) any way he wouldn't have it so I said if it gets beat I will give you the money back and if it wins we will go halves on the profit ,which was a win win situation for him so I shot over to my local meccas and put the £40 on at 6/4  ,it was one of Robert armstrongs and the race  was on the box, so got back home to watch  the race ,lester held the horse up out the back think it was a mile and half race or mile and a quarter ,anyway 4 furlongs out my brother is well anxious and sweating saying  this is not going to win   saying  £40 down the swannee  ,but lester is cruising in behind and 2 furlongs out he is in 3rd place 2-3 lenths off the leaders and lester is looking behind for dangers ,I started to put my shoes on ,my brother says what the fook are you doing ! I am going round the bookies to collect I said 1 furlong out lester lets out an inch of rein and race over .....happy days ...........lester legend !

FFS are we going to have this stupid thread resurrected every time Moore wins in a photo or ,incredibly, rides more than one winner in a day?

IMHO. This comparison is a non-starter.

Ryan Moore, successful journeyman jockey.

Lester Piggott, international legend, ex-convict, tightwad, come-back king, hero to millions, housewives favourite, long fellow, MAESTRO!

End of.

IMHO

moore is a very good jockey and best of the current crop but lester made very few mistakes in the saddle ............although he made a few mistakes in his accounting apparently !

Lester no contest.
imo Hughes is the best since him.
Flat racing should be viewed from
start to finish,not the last 100 yards.
That was one of the things that set Lester apart.
His amazing balance and hands to switch horses off,
knowing when to make his run.In a close finish,he
would let his mount see the whip so his head would
be outstetched,and not in recoil.

Royal Academy,Rodrigo at york were marvelous rides.
Earlier Ribera ran with a mouth abcess and Lester nursed
him home without been able to use his whip.
Lester taught the yanks how to ride horses for speed to
get the trip.

Surely the only second to Lester must be Sir Gordon.

Muckoy would carry lester on his back

Fred Archer would have been the one and only jockey that may have been as good as Lester.

Sadly I've laid a two of his winners today . It could easily have been 3 if kingfisher got a clear run. Bad day at the office for me . Well done to the Ryan followers :(

dandy confirms it

Lester by far me , Willie Carson  and Pat Eddery both superior to today's best imo.

That race confirms it as well.

i'd have loved to see Lester's reaction when after  winning a race Alice sticks a microphone in his face and asks him how he feels......He'd have  made Ryan look like the great communicator.

It's hard to take anyone's view seriously when describing Ryan Moore as a journeyman jockey and so you have to hope that's a wind up or if not then be embarrassed for them.

Richard Hughes ?

In my defence, Ima, I did say 'successful journeyman jockey'. Yes, I do think Lester Piggott was the better rider but my post was also intended to draw attention to the impact that he had on the public at large.

Lester was undoubtedly the best jockey I have or will see but nobody gives a mention to Yves St Martin who was top class in his own right - didn't ride over here overly often but his record of big race wins stands up to scrutiny by anyone (considered the equivalent of LP in France in terms of ability

The problem with many people is they are too insular and seem to think that the best jockeys are in their own backyard - our press and tv journalists forever come out with the idiom that our jockeys are the best in the world but when they ride overseas they are often outshone by the "locals"

you cant say Piggott for sure

ryan moore is exceptional - the pace of the race is more widely understood now - lets face it Piggott was light years above the other daleks of that era -

bit like Tyson of the late 80s

I honestly dont know why kinane ever gets mentioned, complete journeyman jockey

Lester ! The greatest post war British sportsman. Fcuk the bit of bird. Give him his Knighthood .

Moore by a mile,I'm sure Moore would be more successful if you were allowed butcher your Horse like u were when Lester was riding.

Lester, The long Fellon
4493 career wins
11 times Champion Jockey
9 Derbys
rode classic winners Ireland ,France ,

Rayan  Moore is ok but hes just that ..

lester by 2 miles

I saw Lester ride on a regular basis. The butcher tag is well overstated. Check out Sir Peter O'Sullevan's opinion on the Longfellow. He was as  close to Lester as anyone in his formative years.

Dettori just ridden 50 Royal ascot winners Moore on 30 odd Piggott 119 and that was when there were only 4days

Life-Lucky     28 Jun 15 10:11 
In my defence, Ima, I did say 'successful journeyman jockey'. Yes, I do think Lester Piggott was the better rider but my post was also intended to draw attention to the impact that he had on the public at large.

Yes you did but I just personally find "successful journeyman jockey" a bit of an oxymoron, a bit like a shared monopoly and so see it as either one or the other.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of a journeyman jockey but I personally think if they are/were all of a former Champion Apprentice Jockey, are a multiple Champion Jockey, regularly ride 100+ winners a season and often nearer 200, are a multiple classic and/or Gr1 winner all over the world, including races like the Derby, Oaks, 1000gns, 2000gns, Ascot GC, Eclipse, King George, Irish 1000gns/2000gns/Oaks/Champion Stakes, Arc, Cox Plate, Melbourne Cup, Canadian International, Hong Kong Cup, Japan Cup, Dubai Sheema Classic and about half a dozen Breeders' Cup races, then you are a bit above a journeyman and if that successful, can't really come under that label in my view.

The main thing that I see significant with Ryan Moore though it when non-British trainers like Aidan O'Brien are happy to use him, as well as the likes of American trainer Wesley A Ward, Andreas Wohler from Germany, Sei Ishizaka, Noriyuki Hori and Takahisa Tezuka from Japan, H J Brown of South Africa and American trainer Doug Watson in the UAE, trainers he has won big races for up to Gr1/Grade1 level all over the world, including times outside of their own countries too.

Well said ima

Try My Best

Try My Best
16 May 15 13:12
Joined: 13 Aug 06
| Topic/replies: 2,164 | Blogger: Try My Best's blog
when they are talking about graham Lee as a potential champion jockey u know there is a serious dearth of quality out there.


Spot on.

Cheers CheltenhamRoar although like I said earlier, it depends on each person's definition of "journeyman" jockey.

Graham Lee will never be Champion Jockey but it's not due to a lack of riding ability.

There was a thread on here asking "what's the point of Graham Lee" when he first switched codes and that poster was made to look a bit silly when he ended the season on 100+ winners, something he has also done in the 3 full seasons he's been ridding on the flat and with a highest total of 159. In 2 of those 3 season his rides have earned over £1m in prize money and they are current on almost £800k this season despite not reaching his half century yet.

He's a Gr1 winner on the flat as well as having won around half a dozen group 2 and 3 races too from limited chances at that level, and if John Gosden is happy to have him ride a group winner for him then that's good enough for me. If he had not previously been a NH jockey nobody would bat an eyelid but so was Jim Crowley and as another Gr1 winner on the flat he's not doing too badly either, as were Ryan Moore and a certain Lester Piggott previously jump jockeys too.

Ryan is very good (a bit too one dimensional in my opinion - too many of his are waited with out back in last 3-4 and then try to come inside or wide, albeit he rode a good waiting in front ride in a 3 runner race on air pilot at weekend, would like to see that more often) but he would need to repeat his big race successes for another 10 years before coming close to Lester, in fact any of Kinane/Cauthen/Eddery are probably still ahead of Ryan in my eyes at least

I'm not particularly agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion Gordon63 but if he does that then all it really proves is his longevity rather than his riding ability really.

I personally think someone can be at the top for say a decade as opposed to someone else being so for twice as long and yet be as good as each other or the decade one even be better. I'm not saying that's the case here with Ryan Moore and just that it is possible.

FOYLESWAR    16 Jun 15 18:44 
....which was a win win situation for him so I shot over to my local meccas and put the £40 on at 6/4......I started to put my shoes on ,my brother says what the fook are you doing..

I always thought you ended up taking your shoes off when taking a trip to Mecca?