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Listen,he's not around long enough yet,but listen he's getting there.
Michael Dickenson & Martin Pipe were superb back in the day
Henry Cecil also was quite decent in the 80s
Henry Cecil also was quite decent in the 80s
Usual answer of course, who knows or could possibly know...? Like horses and jockeys there will always be debate, which is no bad thing, there is no definitive answer though, as you cannot compare stars from different eras.
he works for coolmore stud,they mop up all the top prize money,gallileo has made millions stud value,and still going,strong.
think he ruins alot of horses by running them too often......think put stoutey in coolmore and you would see even better results
No imo Vincent was.
He started with no money or backers.
Bought horses cheap.Built up his empire by
gamblying.Then got better horses,and owners.
What he did on the jumps and then flat was unique.
He started with no money or backers.
Bought horses cheap.Built up his empire by
gamblying.Then got better horses,and owners.
What he did on the jumps and then flat was unique.
"......think put stoutey in coolmore and you would see even better results"
One of your best yet,portman
Perfect if Coolmore wanted more touches in Handicaps.
One of your best yet,portman
Perfect if Coolmore wanted more touches in Handicaps.
Vincent completely changed European horse racing,realised at a early stage that the Northern Dancer line was theway to go.Way ahead of his time.
Vincent also wintered Sir Ivor in Pisa (unheard of at the time).
A true great.
A true great.
Dr Newland won the Grand National with only a few horses in his stable .....slightly more impressive .
Stoute is very good,always played 2nd fiddle to henry in the 80s but got a lesser class of animal at the time,similar comments apply to Gosden,I think MJ is well underrated,many a good trainer over the years,all needed the quality behind them and that is down too a few millionaires.
years ago it was about talent ..Vincent ..Michael , Martin ,, flat or jumps ..they were the best
Today its all about money .. the oil men could make anyone champ .. pick a name say Freedi Nobody.. the oil men send him 30 blue bloods costing 20 zillion .. and hes up there with the Champ of yester year
Today its all about money .. the oil men could make anyone champ .. pick a name say Freedi Nobody.. the oil men send him 30 blue bloods costing 20 zillion .. and hes up there with the Champ of yester year
Vincent.
Won 3 Grand Nationals on the trot with 3 diff horses, will never be repeated.
Wasn't a bad trainer on the flat either.
Revolutionised horse racing, nobody will ever come close imo.
Won 3 Grand Nationals on the trot with 3 diff horses, will never be repeated.
Wasn't a bad trainer on the flat either.
Revolutionised horse racing, nobody will ever come close imo.
Simple you have access to the best bred horses and money you can't lose ..sorry but that is it..........
I think the fact that he is given most of the best horses around and yet he still has to use the scattergun approach by entering lots of horses in big races because he doesn't always know which one of his is best, proves that he is not a great trainer.
when he only enters one horse then it's a sign that either coolmore are short of ammo at that distance or that they are trying to pretend that "this is the best horse I've ever trained"
when he only enters one horse then it's a sign that either coolmore are short of ammo at that distance or that they are trying to pretend that "this is the best horse I've ever trained"
I can't think of the horse's name but, I do remember Vincent O'Brien winning the Grand National then winning a 2 mile hurdle with the same horse at 9/1. A bit of a training feat.
Given that he is handed 50-60 (if not more) of the very best bred thoroughbreds at the start of each season he does no better than either Gosden or Stoute would do with the same ammunition.
V O'Brien was before his time and the greatest dual purpose trainer EVER. He was as good a trainer of the jumpers he had as F Walywn, who had the best supplied to him and later a better trainer of flat horses that he had a hand in purchasing (not breeding) and training than any in Europe.
M Pipe revolutionised racing from the 80s. Reg Akehurst, no mean horse trainer himself, spent a couple of weeks at Pond House and afterwards quoted that "every trainer of horses would benefit if they visited Pipes yard for a few days to learn how to get a horse fit". The days of horses needing 3,4,5 runs to get fit were numbered.
V O'Brien was before his time and the greatest dual purpose trainer EVER. He was as good a trainer of the jumpers he had as F Walywn, who had the best supplied to him and later a better trainer of flat horses that he had a hand in purchasing (not breeding) and training than any in Europe.
M Pipe revolutionised racing from the 80s. Reg Akehurst, no mean horse trainer himself, spent a couple of weeks at Pond House and afterwards quoted that "every trainer of horses would benefit if they visited Pipes yard for a few days to learn how to get a horse fit". The days of horses needing 3,4,5 runs to get fit were numbered.
Yes,Martin Pipe totally revolutionised the training of NH Horses and rarely gets the credit he deserves.
T J Smith the greatest flat trainer there has ever been. Completely changed how horses are trained. Most of his methods still used now. Started with nothing as well.
Vincent O'Brien - there have been many polls over the years and he always wins by a distance.
Has to be Vincent.
If you read up about what he did with Hatton's Grace (whom he got hold of as an 8yo, after Dan Moore had had him), and Knock Hard, and Cottage Rake - the versatility/achievements that he trained into those horses - when he started, with next to nothing - it's hard to imagine any modern day trainer being able to emulate that.
If you read up about what he did with Hatton's Grace (whom he got hold of as an 8yo, after Dan Moore had had him), and Knock Hard, and Cottage Rake - the versatility/achievements that he trained into those horses - when he started, with next to nothing - it's hard to imagine any modern day trainer being able to emulate that.
No, he just has best/richest owners and therefore best horses.
Been a few unsung heros who have got a good tune out of others cast offs ,these people know more about horses than most .
Paul Nichols not a bad trainer of a proper jumping type ,Jenny pitman a good example of an old fashioned take it slow approach and first female to hold a trainers licence and won plenty big races ,started with next to nothing .As did the likes of Jack Berry and found a niche with the early 2yo,s
Depends what you are judging on ,Vincent O Brian ...only a fool would argue with his credentials .
Dickinson first five home in a GC ...must have had something as well .
Pipe a free thinking sort who deserves plenty credit the list is endless imo .
what about all the small trainers who have punched above their weight ? or the likes of Clive Britain who was not afraid to have a go at the big guns the list is endless and its hard to compare ,its not like you are comparing like for like .
Also the small owner breeders ?
Remember a champion hurdle winner called Flakey Dove ?
the games not just about the big fish .
Paul Nichols not a bad trainer of a proper jumping type ,Jenny pitman a good example of an old fashioned take it slow approach and first female to hold a trainers licence and won plenty big races ,started with next to nothing .As did the likes of Jack Berry and found a niche with the early 2yo,s
Depends what you are judging on ,Vincent O Brian ...only a fool would argue with his credentials .
Dickinson first five home in a GC ...must have had something as well .
Pipe a free thinking sort who deserves plenty credit the list is endless imo .
what about all the small trainers who have punched above their weight ? or the likes of Clive Britain who was not afraid to have a go at the big guns the list is endless and its hard to compare ,its not like you are comparing like for like .
Also the small owner breeders ?
Remember a champion hurdle winner called Flakey Dove ?
the games not just about the big fish .
Obviously Vincent stands head and shoulders above everyone and it's not really worth comparing anyone with him.
Paddy Prendergast was the best of the rest imo......as for Aiden, well i don't know if he gets the credit he deserves tbf....his record will show that he produces horses absolutely spot on for the big day year in year
out.....not a doubt in my mind that he is an extraordinary trainer.....if Vincents son David [a genius btw] hadn't packed it in in his early thirties he would more than likely have taken the reigns at Ballydoyle and
had that happened i still believe that Aiden would be in the top 5 trainers in Ireland....so even though in spite of his record it's hard to credit him with the mantle 'best ever' due to the advantages he has.....it
will be interesting to see how history perceives him though....in 20 or 30 years time people may dare to compare him with Vincent who knows.
Paddy Prendergast was the best of the rest imo......as for Aiden, well i don't know if he gets the credit he deserves tbf....his record will show that he produces horses absolutely spot on for the big day year in year
out.....not a doubt in my mind that he is an extraordinary trainer.....if Vincents son David [a genius btw] hadn't packed it in in his early thirties he would more than likely have taken the reigns at Ballydoyle and
had that happened i still believe that Aiden would be in the top 5 trainers in Ireland....so even though in spite of his record it's hard to credit him with the mantle 'best ever' due to the advantages he has.....it
will be interesting to see how history perceives him though....in 20 or 30 years time people may dare to compare him with Vincent who knows.
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