Agree Geoff banks

Any place only betting, factmachine?

IF U ASK NICELY!

Where about's are you factmachine.  I'm a Uttox regular just asking as never normally the case, no point in shopping around like yesteryear as pretty much all boards are in sync. Poor racing today don't expect anyone bigger than the machine especially being ladies day!

I always ask nicely, factmachine. Adge doesn't mind how you ask though.

He does if you are asking him to buy you a pint !!

The previous posters are correct, you only need these middle men on course because of the archaic system we are asked to bet under when going racing. Imagine turning up to the track and being able to bet either via your phone or via exchange assistants to place directly into the exchange which in turn is owned by Racing. Imagine further that this enabled the whole game to be seen as a 98% losing game (probaly less under this scenario) and a 2% winning where the 2% can be celebrated and lauded whilst the 98% can aspire to join them. The interest would soar just as it has with Poker.

In the meantime Geoff just keep the personal insults flowing.

you totally miss the point , olias , the joy of going racing is the fun of picking a winner and watching the cash being placed in your hand

For the stupid and greedy amongst the betting public (vast majority) we can surely navigate round that problem, with exchange cashiers dealing in money

adge I think that is all ready taken care of for the majority that go to the races on the weekend stag does etc

its called the tote and they don't even have to waste drinking time walking outside.

but they have to show themselves as big shots Mr crisp by betting with the books

to the awe of their mates

adge is right - it's the paraphernalia that does it, the satchel, the big fat belly etc

Olias/Mark - so everyone else is stupid that bets with bookies? Makes a bit of fun at your high minded stance
truth is I have zero respect for you or your opinion - because you refuse to accept there isn't the liquidity to support your idea of utopia - so you turn to bookies to fill the blanks- then complain when they choose to give you short shift as you whine the day away about what they choose not to lay you

Then of course we're all fiddlers and mugs whilst you're the inspired one.

Yes, I think we've all got it- remember when you mess with the bull - you'll always get the horns

OLIAS
'For the stupid and greedy amongst the betting public (vast majority) we can surely navigate round that problem, with exchange cashiers dealing in money '

what's an exchange cashier? You?

why do bookmakers put up overnight/morning prices but wont take a bet ?

because it's peddled by the press but governed by betfair, no matter how small it is

Because the big bookmakers are accountants,thats why Geoff Banks is right whe he says the on course bookmakers have to be relieved of the need to set SP's for the national betting market. They could then return to a vibrant,competitive form of on course bookmaking that would make it interesting again on course.

Geoff I no longer bet with Bookmakers I solely bet on the exchanges. With regard to betting with bookmakers my advice to punters is quite simple, bet with who ever can offer you the best price, in the same way that you would buy your washing machine at the best price. With regard to liquidity and my complaining well you always try to bring the argument back to this premise when it does not really apply. By this I mean the problem with betting with bookmakers is not how much you can get on as you love to portray, its a question of whether you are allowed to bet at all. It adds a touch of sanitation to the seedy affair when you swing the argument to how much bookmakers will lay. A kind of well they are managing there liabilities type of argument. We all know this is not the case, bookmakers do not limit stakes/liabilities they BAN punters either outright or to pennies which is the same thing. The truth is that the game is changing and on course bookmakers such as yourself are a dying breed and we the punters do not lament your passing as you serve little purpose within whatever new system emerges, hopefully something akin to one that benefits both racing and the punter.

OLIAS,I AM AN ONCOURSE BOOKMAKER AND A LOT OF WHAT U SAY REGARDING THE OFFCOURSE INDUSTRY IS QUITE TRUE,HOWEVER I STOOD AT UTTOXETER TODAY EVERY FAV BIGGER THAN ANY EXCHANGE(AS IS THE CASE EVERY TRACK I ATTEND),AND U WILL NOT BE REFUSED A BET,IF ANYTHING IT IS THE EXCHANGE THAT IS A DYING BREED,AS WITH THE OFFCOURSE BOOKMAKERS U CAN ONLY GET A FRACTION ON OF WHAT U COULD YEARS AGO,THE SIMPLE FACT MY FRIEND IS THAT ONCOURSE THE PUNTERS HAVE NEVER EVER HAD IT SO GOOD AS THEY DO NOW,AND THATS A FACT!

if your favs are bigger than the machine, then your book must be made overround by offering those horses say 10/1 and above significantly less than the machine

so effectively what we are saying is that the on-course business relies on there being sufficient punters to take these prices (above 10/1) from the books instead of backing them on betfair

THERES NO IFS SWIFT,ITS A FACT,AND IM NOT ON MY OWN,COME RACING!

WHEN £200 HAS MOVED A HORSE FROM 2/1 TO 13/8 ON HERE IN THE MORNING,THEN AS AN ONCOURSE BOOK YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION!

games a joke on course now, went to Windsor a few weeks back and saw 15/2 down the entire rails I horse I wanted to back. no opinion, no b0llox and no chance of making more than an fair living.

It appears Geoff has a masterplan which will allow him to lay a fair bet,he wants to go back to the good old days when his dad was a tiger laying **** cats at 3% arunner.

first time Ive said a bad word. Try puzzycats

things will never improve for the on course books until they keep the money in the ring (will it ever happen)

instead off sending it into hyperspace via the machine the expense's will be the killer.

adge has the right idea winter in the sun why come out to play whens there's nobody out

olias,
you say you only bet with the exchange and then , in the same breath , tell everyone to take the best price.
as factmachine says he is always the best price on favourites , maybe you should get out more and follow your own advice
his on course business is about favs but plenty of others want to get outsiders [ like myself ] at bigger prices swift-tuttle
that 15/2 was only 7/1 or less in your good old days , sendintheclowns
I'm not off until the 8th November , mr crisp [ flight booked ]

that should read 18th nov...not too greedy

OLIASOFSUNHILL - Love that 15.37 post of yours...in fact...i'm going to use it as part of the plot to my latest movie....'The betting exchange panacea that never was'....the first scene opens where 'a stupid and greedy member of the betting public'....lets call him JP...wanders over to an exchange cashier dealing in readies "good morning young lady...a mate of mine....mr Cider ...has a horse running in the 14.40....he recommends a small interest....so i'll just have 50k each way at the 6.2 available..."certainly sir" says the young lady..." er..er...wait..er...i'm sorry sir but there's a slight issue...you can have £32.53 at 6.2...the rest I can average out at 2.1....as for the place part.......roll credits...this movie is entirely fictional...it would be ...all characters...and events...appearing in this work are ficticious.Any resemblance to real persons... or events....is purely coincidental

mugbookie you are using the current way exchanges operate ie within a wider bookmaker obsessed industry, in the context of my suggestion which would be an exchange dominated industry.

that should read 18th nov...not too greedy

enjoy them adge you are always willing to answer most questions us posters ask you as long as their half sensible

you should know by now everybody else can do your jobs better than you can.

as well as the pub landlords and numerous other hard working business fellas jobs

mugbookie......an average punter strolls up to the rails an approaches one of those flash bookies that is trying to look 20 years younger than he is......his selection is 5/1 on every board......the punter says to bookie 1000 ew no 9......the bookie as is the norm stretches his neck like usual and sees that it is 6.6/6.8 although it is early stages in a relatively weak market......certainly sir is the reply and as the punter goes to his pocket to peel out the cash .....the horse contracts rapidly and is now 5.8/5.9......the assistant has now alerted the bookie and suddenly there is a panic.....it is immediately changed to 9/2 on the board......the money is handed over .....ticket printed and handed over.....then the punter realises its 9/2 on his ticket..... he has been done over and starts to complain.....after a bit of a discussion between the two parties.....the bet is voided....the money is handed back.....and now the horse is 9/2 on every board......and as he walks away.....a cry can be heard in his ear....." 9/2 bar one "......

Olias- Mark - what's your vision of exchanges or betting? I don't think there are any layers to be found in your utopia- but perhaps you could encapsulate your grand plan as to how you get laid best odds- each way- and who lays you?

Paulie- your little diatribe quite amusing - I don't see anyone walking up to me with a grand these days- certainly not you who I suspect rarely wagers more than £20

lets call him JP...wanders over to an exchange cashier dealing in readies Laugh "good morning young lady...a mate of mine....mr Cider Wink...has a horse running in the 14.40....he recommends a small interest....so i'll just have 50k each way at the 6.2 available..."certainly sir" says the young lady..." er..er...wait..er...i'm sorry sir but there's a slight issue...you can have £32.53 at 6.2...the rest I can average out at 2.1

Paulie- your little diatribe quite amusing - I don't see anyone walking up to me with a grand these days- certainly not you who I suspect rarely wagers more than £20

dont you get punters wanting 50k eachway then ?

some terrible examples on this thread just to prove there point to be correct .

Sportsadvisor......I may not be a big punter myself although I would have a little more than £20 on.....but I have had big bets on for people with  bookies in the ring in England.....people that you will know well.....and I have experienced both excellent and shocking treatment.....these instances all took place at the Cheltenham festival within the last 7 or 8 years.....
Firstly a horse who was 7 on a board that had been 12 earlier but was 13/2 generally.....near the off....and having the last 2k on it.....approached a man and was bet.....on inspection of the ticket noticed it was 6....told the bookmaker and wanted to void the bet.....was told politely to go fukk myself......horse sp'd 13/2 and was ragged.....
Second instance is a euro 1k ew at 40/1  that finished second ......return of 9k euro.....the rate was about 1.83 at the time even though it said 1.66 on the ticket.....didn't bother collecting at the meeting..... but when I did attempt to draw months later....I was offered 6k stg even though my 9k euro was worth about 8k stg at the time.....as the rate was about 1.9 at that stage.....after a struggle I did receive payment in full in euro....
Finally two years in a row bet with the same man.....laid me 50k/1k ew a horse that finished second at 16/1....and the following year laid me 50/5k the horse that was nowhere......now that was what I would call a proper layer.....and was a gentleman to do business with as well.....
Im not going to bother naming the first two but the last man's name is John....cant think of his second name .....he's grey haired but balding.....his dad was a bookie.....hes from London id say.....and this year I noticed he moved from the rails down to the rail where the horses go out onto the track at Cheltenham......a proper gentleman....

When I used to punt on the racecourse a man's word was his bond, and the board price was laid to plenty.  Now it's a polite sorry, the price has changed, as the monkey on the computer pushes his button!

paulie

your thinking of john Christie as in roy Christie.

jmdc

there are many who will still lay punters after the price has gone,please don't tar us all with the same brush.

Ironically foxy, the OP was the man who stitched me up like a kipper in one instance.

that wouldn't surprise me jmdc did it to me once said I was arbing which I wouldn't do to another bookmaker,i see others doing it I find it pathetic.

Problem with bookmakers today is they are all the same, no need to walk along the boards because you know what they are offering before you do it!! Then they will go home and say turnover is woeful these days, I'm sorry take peanuts and all you can make is peanuts!

Take today, yet again I've had to bet on the exchange to get even money after commission on noble mission, not one bookie prepared to take it on, yes we all know it's got a few pounds in hand but never raced there before, could of travelled badly e.t.c so many factors for the books which is the reason the layers on the exchange have took my bet.

ladycarla

what has a race in Germany got to do with boards bookmakers ?

It's called betting and you need a bookmaker as for the board ones read first paragraph HTH.

I read it very boring and untrue there is plenty of variation nowadays I accept a couple of years ago it was poor and to many books just went the same prices.

Well this is from punter to bookmaker and this is how the proper race goer does it these days; for last 5 years I put my main bet on which varies from £100 to £500 depending on how much I rate the banker of the day before I set off(80% will be on the exchange)because we know you won't get value on course anymore!

When we arrive we walk around with £200-£300 in our pockets but our biggest bet will be £5E/W for fun, we spend more on beer than on gambling, something that would never of happened 10 years ago. Until bookies address this and stick their neck out it will continue and you will keep taking the peanuts.

Sorry if that bores you.

joy to watch

Guess I remember the old days too much when you could get 9/4 instead of 7/4 on the fav if you walked around all the books, used to be the highlight of the day.

Foxy.....that's him yes.....a credit to the game....

Very true.  But in those days they bet to an over round of 3% per runner.

They did but if your keen racing man and the first time you go racing all the boards are 7/4F in the first race then all the same price on the fav for the next 5 races, next time you go racing you won't be rushing down to the boards would you.

I guess I'm just old school and that's my problem.

ladycarla of course it was different then and much more fun for the books and the proper racegoers,but take it from me the variation of prices is there again now.

by the way I didn't mean your post bored me I meant I am bored with the same old complaints about the race course bookmakers.

It's ok you wouldn't be the first to call me boring If the variation is coming back can only be a good thing.

I go racing a lot in the winter for pleasure and two winters ago I would stand looking at the led boards shaking my head ,its not as bad now in many rings however whilst the exchanges are around I am afraid it will never go back to how it was.

MUGBOOKIE (OR SHOULD I SAY MR SPIELBURGH)SPOT ON AS USUAL

the facts are that years ago when lady Carla went down to the ring and the course bookmakers were 7/4 , she would be delighted to steal 2/1 from some brave soul.
the sad and boring part now is they all offer the same price which is 9/4.
would be great to get back to those good old days !!

I'll agree most of the time the prices are all the same but there's still some of us who do bet to an opinion & do stand them.Like Facts I regularly top the exchange on the thin un if I think I can get it beat.I'd rather lay it to punters on the track than folk on here.A recent example which another book pointed out to me was at Cartmel the other Saturday night.I didn't fancy the jolly so topped the exchanges to get it,I went evens when it was odds on on here.All books had priced up so it wasn't early betting yet that price must have been there five or ten minutes before anyone matched it.I probably went odds against when plenty still had it odds on.The reason I've put this up is because another bookmaker commented on it & said you must have stood it for a few quid.I in fact didn't stand it for a lot as the second in shortened as I expected it to & consequently had a decent book although of course it was still my bogie.Last Saturday at Newcastle I topped the exchanges quite a few times(not just on the thin uns).I'll be the first to admit I'm not the strongest layer in the world but it must be a couple of years at least since I cut anybodies bet.The value is still there in the rings if you look round & know where to go.

The facts are that bookmakers went out of business in the good old days because they stood bets with their opinions; today no bookie will go out of business because they have it all back on the machine.

Summary, I would rather give my money to some brave soul whos laying 2/1 who stands a bet then some middle man who gives me 9/4 and has all back on the machine at 5/2. Yes bring back the good old days.

Another fact for you; on magnificent seven day in 1996 hundreds of bookies went out of business. Today you could have a magnificent seven day every week and not one bookie would go out of business.

LADYCARLA,"HUNDREDS OF BOOKIES WENT OUT OF BUSINESS"YES THEY DID BUT YOUR GETTING MIXED UP WITH FRANKIES MAGNIFICENT 7 AND THE FOUNDING OF THE GAMBLING COMMISSION,CURRENT PRICE THAT YOU HAVE EVER SET FOOT ON A RACECOURSE 999/1 TO £5

Can I have 50p please, I would ask for more but I know you won't lay it.

999/1 TO £5Shocked so pmsl

well you clearly show yourself up lady Carla with that sweeping statement that course books have it all back on here. with the high fees we now pay racecourses and often matching or topping exchange prices it would be impossible to show a nett profit mid week
for my case I took over 1000 bets at York on Saturday and had ONE back bet of £50 [ lost thankfully ] , on sunday I took over 1000 bets again at Pontefract and had NO exchange bets.
you people do make me smile sometimes

Never said you had it all back on here, just answer one question, do you watch the machine or not while you take bets?

it's set up for observation and guidance. something we must do with so many arbers ready to strike but like many others that's all it is , just a guide

How many arbers do you get on course?

Worst part is I was a bookie for ten years!

Took on some massive bets

Now I own a house over looking a stately home

Who's hacked my account???

how many arbers on course.....none. we match or slightly top exchange prices but not enough to beat the commission for them
if we didn't observe or use exchanges....hundreds

enjoy your wealth , lady Carla , the current horse racing game is not for you

Now I own a house over looking a stately home



Are you the gardener to said home ?

On course bookie betting to their usual big overrounds have a choice stand all the bets or bet them back on Daq a win win situation. They cann't lose either way unless they've mis-managed their book or have it very lobsided.
There is no point in discussing SP returns etc with on course bookies(commission agents) as they will do only whats in their best interests irrespective of how it effects punters or racing as a whole.

TINKLER IS YET ANOTHER PERSON WHO HAS NEVER SET FOOT ON A RACECOURSE!

Do we really need rows of on course bookies anymore? The advantage of betting on course disappeared the day betting duty on turnover ended. What we really need is a way of centralizing the currently fragmented market for racing bets. I am not sure that the on course market has a role to play in that.

as they will do only whats in their best interests irrespective of how it effects punters or racing as a whole.






Doesn't everyone on here.

I cannot believe how some firms can have 3 pitches in one ring ! It must make it near impossible for the back lines who have invested £50 + 10 bob in fees, on their number.

see you at beverley today adge, try and take a few quid off you.

Force the on course bookies to operate to a 110 % book( constantly computer adjusted) they still have the option of betting back to a profit on Daq but won't be ripping off punters with their usual big overrounds books.  Should cull the number of on course bookies down by minimum of 50%
and hopefully leave some of the bookies who have some balls left.
Would create more space on the course, don't think anyone wants to see numerous rows of bookies boards all flashing virtually the same price.

TINKLER,O DEAR U REALLY NEVER HAVE BEEN TO A RACECOURSESTICK TO FISHING

Harry
I don't know if you're a bookie or not having a dig at the lads standing in poor picks but let me enlighten you on some of the Northern rings.Last Saturday(no 11 pick)I went no 9 on the second line in the old silver ring rather than stand 4,12,maybe 2 in from the front line or last man out on the back line in Tatts all better than most of the front line pitches there on Ladies day & there were plenty of other pitches which were better than most of the front line pitches.I did over 1100 bets whereas I know they were taking nothing like that on most of the front line pitches inc. the good pitches.
York Tatts.
Strange how so many with good picks go down into the old Silver ring.Magnet Cup day I worked out of a pitch I paid £2200 for,stood on the back line & I know I was taking more than the book who was standing in front ofme on the back line.
Thirsk
Tatts the best 2 pitches in there are the last 2 out on the back line whereas apart from the last 2 or 3 & a couple in front of the tunnel are only poor.The only ones any good in the second line are the last 2 out.I paid £11000 for my pitch there (No 15) & I haven't been to the place this year.I can take more money at a point than I can out of my £11000 pitch.
Sedgefield
I paid £12500 for my pitch (No 8)there,I can see the track from where I live & very rarely(maybe once a year)go there.The place is useless & I may as well have put the money on the fire.I appreciate I could sell it but I have my personal reason for keeping it.
There are plenty more Northern rings I could give you examples of but I'll leave it at these.
As you can see I have paid half decent money for some of my pitches & there are another couple I paid reasonable money for however it may surprise you that year in year out the cheaper pitches get me more than the ones I paid the decent for me money for.In fact I still work out of my old B.P.A. waiting list position at one track & on the fact that I get more out of it I sold my Carlisle flat pick as it was too dangerous a clash trying to do the double.

tinker , you would find that on course books always bet to less than 110 % on under 10 runner races if you ever set foot on a racecourse

I would love to bet to 10% over-round.  Where is this good place where they bet that well?

ALLPOINTS ,WELL YOU HAVE WELL AND TRULY LET THE CAT OUT THE BAG,DONT FORGET MOST PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF THE BETTING RINGS ARE THAT THE FRONT LINE IS WERE U CAN GET A BET ON,U GET THE BEST PRICE,AND GENERALLY ITS WERE THE BIG LAYERS STAND,IF ONLY THEY KNEW THE TRUTH

1.01 HARRY IS A FRONT LINE BOOK,PROBABLY ONE OF THE ONES THAT COMES AROUND TO THE BACK LINES ASKING CAN WE BET TO 2% A RUNNER OR HAVE A PRICE LADDER

The following piece is lifted from a Simon Nott piece  "tales from the ring"


A lot of the fun in betting rings in days gone by was hunting around for the best prices. Finding a back row bookie whose floorman had fallen asleep and let his boss roast offering 11/4 when the firms were taking 5/2 along the rails was all part of the game. Of course in those days the layer caught napping didn’t have the ‘Betfair Twist’ option. That is doing a little pirouette on the stool to look into his computer and see what price the horse was on the exchange, then say ‘It’s gone’ and lay you nothing. That seems to be socially acceptable amongst some layers these days. Of course there was no shortage of bluffing in the old days either. Books ignoring you totally, or if you were lucky and you got a polite one, copping a deaf ‘un, pretending not to hear your bet as they casually removed the price or just growling ‘nothing done’. The vast majority would play the game and accept that they had been caught fair and square and at least lay you part of the bet. They got their own back on the floorman shortly after giving the poor unfortunate a public bollocking and assuring him there would be ‘no honours’ that day.

These days, the bookies have alerts on their screens which shows them if the price has gone on the machine. That is why it is very rare to see much variation of prices in a market that is generally based on exchange moves. One part of the ‘good old days’ that still hangs in there and punters can benefit from is the layers willingness to lay fractions. The fraction prices of 100/7 100/6 etc changed in the 1970s to the more familiar 14/1 and 16/1 to the detriment of punters. However, although not advertised, most bookmakers back in the day would still lay ‘the fractions’ if asked. It was particularly useful for bookies’ floormen hedging, the boss would ask them to bet a horse to win a grand or a monkey.

Obviously bookmakers today don’t advertise the fact they will still lay the enhanced odds. Not all will, but if you chose a long-standing independent you will more often than not be accommodated.

I am apparently one of the few who still ask for a fractions bet e.g. 1000/160. It must be age!

Another 1.01 beat FACTM Though i have bought Pick 1s down to picks in the 70s (chelt fest). Have never discussed betting 2% a runner with any rival bookie.As you only buy bog standard picks then rip it up to make the whole ring overbroke i'm not sure you could be construed as an expert in improving the rings ?

mmmalushka pre betfair on course bookmakers had to price up races such as maidens blind,most bookies had to have an opinion and priced accordingly, now whatever the exchanges do bookies follow, the skills are no longer required.

HarryHandy, I remember pre BF the oncourse books rarely priced until 10/15 mins before the off but only after the opinion takers had opened up. It was like watching meerkats as they swivelled their nebs to see what was happening elsewhere.

Oh Dear mmmalushka now you have got 90% of the "Bookies" going what the fu6k is a fraction bet is their a button on that keyboard for that???????

Instead of forcing the on course bookamkers to operate to 110% book as suggested earlier, the courses
might be best doing away with on course bookies and employing their own staff to man a line of say 10 boards all showing the same prices and 110% book. These prices could be constantly monitored by someone with a computer oncourse employed by the racecourse. This way instead of the oncourse bookies
taking money out of the system the courses get the money which can be then re-invested back into the racecourses to create a better racing experience. An added advantage is that more people would go racing knowing they would be guaranteed to only be facing a 110% book.
Everyones a winner except the present on course bookies ,who have been taking out of the game for a very long time.

what a stupid post courses doing away with bookmakers hardly any course would survive without them.

they already have , tinker , its called chesterbet , bangorbet and riponbet.........big improvement isn't it ?

Another truly brilliant idea from the usual clued up betfair forumites , it would allow the tracks to retain the fortunes they would get betting to 10pc, a wonderfully thought out solution tinker, I agree completely

are young men going into on-course bookmaking career-wise?

not taking part in the war of words, just genuinely interested. I only go to the course about 4 or 5 times a year.

HARRY,SO THE RING BET OVERBROKE BECAUSE THEY ALL FOLLOW ME!CLASSIC!

HARRY AND TINKLER(SOUNDS LIKE A RAG AND BONE OUTFIT) KEEP TAKING THE TABLETS