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**** immediately.no diff only in ir
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Zealot, dont really give a **** about anything.
Is this a thinly veiled look at how much I am winning thread ....
Give them the grand , you must still have a quarter of a million profit.
Give them the grand , you must still have a quarter of a million profit.
zealot.....you should give a fukk.....I was like you.....I never won in all my life.....never even knew this winners tax existed.....then go an a good run for 6 months.....and hey presto.....its this premium charge......
maybe next year zealot.....it could be your turn......you may not be a loser all yer life.....
maybe next year zealot.....it could be your turn......you may not be a loser all yer life.....
To the op.
The exchange is a listed Identify and a public company regulated by law .As you have agreed to their terms you are liable to pay.
Failing to pay will result in bf seeking a judgement which will be granted.Then that is passed to the sheriff who employs bailiffs.
After that it remains on the record as to whether to peruse bankruptcy if the assets seized did not cover the original amount plus the cost of court proceedings and the bailiffs charges .
Your situation is A. have you any assets and if so are they worth more than the debt.B can you use another identity to be able to carry out your day to day stuff.
The exchange is a listed Identify and a public company regulated by law .As you have agreed to their terms you are liable to pay.
Failing to pay will result in bf seeking a judgement which will be granted.Then that is passed to the sheriff who employs bailiffs.
After that it remains on the record as to whether to peruse bankruptcy if the assets seized did not cover the original amount plus the cost of court proceedings and the bailiffs charges .
Your situation is A. have you any assets and if so are they worth more than the debt.B can you use another identity to be able to carry out your day to day stuff.
If you do not have the funds seek a compromise as they will accommodate and if they do not seek arbitration.
pay up and leave
no need to be on here unless you like slightly less mainstream markets or need to have 10k a pop on footie matches
no need to be on here unless you like slightly less mainstream markets or need to have 10k a pop on footie matches
sixtwosix.......ya really should know what yer talking about before ya open yer cakehole......ya don't have to win a quarter of a million to qualify for this winners tax......or anything like that figure for that matter......im not a professional punter.....or somebody acting with inside information......just an ordinary joe soap.....who struck a lucky patch.....as I said ive been losing for 30 years.....all my punting life.....
theonlywayforward.......I think you have been watching too many films......
theonlywayforward.......I think you have been watching too many films......
https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html
Keep an eye on the betfair portal each week to see how close you are to paying it. Agree it is a disgrace
Keep an eye on the betfair portal each week to see how close you are to paying it. Agree it is a disgrace
grow a pair n start betting instead of 'girl's blouse' trading
That is the law .Its how it works .For sure you will find out.gl
The law doesn't apply to paulie well nuts.... he's a law onto himself ! 
if cross dressing was a crime hal youd have a record as long as your dress
Whatever as it will not go away and the amount is enough to peruse.
chavman for a bloke (sic), who thinks he's straight you seem to too know a lot about trans gendering !!!!
You *unt !
You *unt !
Thanks for the advice everybody......I have made up my mind now......I am going to do what anybody with a quarter of a brain would do in these circumstances.......thanks to ye all......
Have a good night Paulie,put something on the end of it.
it is still a legally enforceable debt
Is it? I'm not arguing as I'm no legal eagle but has it been tested and what would it be classed as being for exactly - what does one get in return for paying it? What i mean is, is it a subscription fee, a membership fee, a legally enforceable tax - i.e what do you get for your money that incurs a debt - 'It's a fee on being a successful gambler m'lud' sounds odd to me! It's not a set amount each week and I'm not sure how easy it is to work out - all I'm saying is that if it hasn't already been tested and i got walloped and could afford the legal fees I'd be tempted to see what my chances were!
Feel free to put me right anyone!
Is it? I'm not arguing as I'm no legal eagle but has it been tested and what would it be classed as being for exactly - what does one get in return for paying it? What i mean is, is it a subscription fee, a membership fee, a legally enforceable tax - i.e what do you get for your money that incurs a debt - 'It's a fee on being a successful gambler m'lud' sounds odd to me! It's not a set amount each week and I'm not sure how easy it is to work out - all I'm saying is that if it hasn't already been tested and i got walloped and could afford the legal fees I'd be tempted to see what my chances were!
Feel free to put me right anyone!
I had a winning bet with them last week and am having a b1tch of a time getting paid out on it.
During the week I asked for a copy of their complaints policy but still haven't received it, even though 'it's the law' that they must have one and make it available to customers.
When it suits them, Betfair are hard enough to deal with.
They are making me jump through hoops to get paid. If I were in your position, I'd happily make them do the same.
During the week I asked for a copy of their complaints policy but still haven't received it, even though 'it's the law' that they must have one and make it available to customers.
When it suits them, Betfair are hard enough to deal with.
They are making me jump through hoops to get paid. If I were in your position, I'd happily make them do the same.
The lifetime premium charge was introduced retrospectively, thus giving customers who had been with Betfair for years no warning that they would soon be liable to pay it.
If they had drawn a line in the sand and said if you win 250k from the introduction of the charge you would be liable that is fair enough. But to back date a surcharge, now I'm not sure whether that is legal. Its certainly immoral.
Perhaps someone might make a legal challenge and see if Betfair can justify their dubious legal position in court?
If they had drawn a line in the sand and said if you win 250k from the introduction of the charge you would be liable that is fair enough. But to back date a surcharge, now I'm not sure whether that is legal. Its certainly immoral.
Perhaps someone might make a legal challenge and see if Betfair can justify their dubious legal position in court?
How exactly can BF legally enforce the PC? If you take on a mortgage or credit card, the bank has to go to great lengths to make sure you're fully aware of your commitments. And the charges and payments need to be clearly explained. The interest rate might change, but otherwise, you should know exactly where you are with regards to making payments.
With BF, on the other hand, there's absolutely no clarity with regards to PC. At some point, they decide you ought to be charged a certain amount. Now, I don't see how that can amount to a debt that they can then legally enforce. (And the retrospective PC payments, where you're expected to surrender half of all your winnings once you reach 250K most definitely aren't enforceable.)
The PC is really a fee for continuing to bet with BF. They're within their rights to withhold the BF service from you if you don't pay up, so if you want to stick with BF, you have to put up with it. However, I wouldn't be sure they can enforce the PC, if you're prepared to walk away.
With BF, on the other hand, there's absolutely no clarity with regards to PC. At some point, they decide you ought to be charged a certain amount. Now, I don't see how that can amount to a debt that they can then legally enforce. (And the retrospective PC payments, where you're expected to surrender half of all your winnings once you reach 250K most definitely aren't enforceable.)
The PC is really a fee for continuing to bet with BF. They're within their rights to withhold the BF service from you if you don't pay up, so if you want to stick with BF, you have to put up with it. However, I wouldn't be sure they can enforce the PC, if you're prepared to walk away.
PC was introduced a long time ago.
Nobody (apart from BF) like it.
If you owe you should not even ask the question.
A man without honour is not a man,imo.
Nobody (apart from BF) like it.
If you owe you should not even ask the question.
A man without honour is not a man,imo.
Just out of interest guys when does the premium charge come into play, how much do you have to win for this to bite you???
Marko,
You will be contacted by BF to tell you that you have now qualified to pay the wretched charge and if you continue to so successful you will be paying it from the next week.
You will be contacted by BF to tell you that you have now qualified to pay the wretched charge and if you continue to so successful you will be paying it from the next week.
It's not about honour Racingstar. But BF will be glad there're so many supine bettors who think like you do.
There was actually no good reason for introducing the PC other than BF's pursuit of bigger money - although since the PC also drives away liquidity, it's highly debatable whether that helps them in the long term.
However, if you want to bet with them, you must pay up. Such is life in a sector where there are so few decent competitors.
There was actually no good reason for introducing the PC other than BF's pursuit of bigger money - although since the PC also drives away liquidity, it's highly debatable whether that helps them in the long term.
However, if you want to bet with them, you must pay up. Such is life in a sector where there are so few decent competitors.
marko69 - there is no £ limit -
once you have played in enough markets and showing a + then as long as your commission rate is less than 20% todate - then they will PC you to get to 20%
once you have played in enough markets and showing a + then as long as your commission rate is less than 20% todate - then they will PC you to get to 20%
Honky,
BF know that they own the only "In Running" game in town (certainly for horse racing).
Being supine does not come into the equation as if you want bet horse racing In Running you pay up or are unable to do it.
BF know that they own the only "In Running" game in town (certainly for horse racing).
Being supine does not come into the equation as if you want bet horse racing In Running you pay up or are unable to do it.
That was exactly my point. If we want to keep going with exchange betting, we have to pay up. BF have us over a barrel because of the lack of sizeable competitors.
However, the issue has nothing to do with 'honour'. It's simply a money-grab on the part of BF - and, in the case of the £250K rule and the subsequent 40%+ charges, a very unfair money-grab.
However, the issue has nothing to do with 'honour'. It's simply a money-grab on the part of BF - and, in the case of the £250K rule and the subsequent 40%+ charges, a very unfair money-grab.
racingstar.......I would consider I have as much honour as most......I can say that I have never laid a hand on money not belong to me......and that is not the case with this mob.......and on top of that there was no warning.....they said they sent me an e mail on the previous week ......and it bounced back......that's a new one on me......bounced back my hole.....
Paulie,
The EMail has to be delivered to you otherwise they could do what they wanted to.
If they accept that you did not receive their EMail you do not owe.
End of subject.
The EMail has to be delivered to you otherwise they could do what they wanted to.
If they accept that you did not receive their EMail you do not owe.
End of subject.
Don't pay it, they can't do anything apart from close your account down, and they are dying on their arse anyway.
" the issue has nothing to do with 'honour'. It's simply a very unfair money-grab on the part of BF"
a huge change in the ethos of betfair to the early years......
a huge change in the ethos of betfair to the early years......
racingstar......they said they sent it.....and it was my fault that I didn't receive it.....and they were in no way culpable.....they say it bounced back.....and that its tough Shiite......
if you moan like f*** to vip@betfair.com about it then they may give you some leniency, mention that you didn't get the email, they may give you a weeks reprieve from the charge.
The first one is the important email,as it gives you the choice of whether you want to bother staying with the site.
Think your grand is going to go towards the cash out ad(the one where a group of reprobates throw crisps and stuff around the sitting room and yer man coolly presses the cash out button for a paltry £62 or something like that not realising he probably would have got more if he wasn,t too lazy to lift his finger and put the lay in himself). Wasn,t that BF,s initial explanation that the PC was brought in to attract new players to the site? Not sure does the test of time puts that in a good light.
If you had some proof that the site crashing frequently has cost you big time i,m sure they might have some sympathy,suppose it is too late now regarding the Voler la Vedette case if you got caught by her.
You are in a fierce moral quandary altogether Paulie and the question now remains "Do you or don,t you?" The email is a different matter entirely.
Think your grand is going to go towards the cash out ad(the one where a group of reprobates throw crisps and stuff around the sitting room and yer man coolly presses the cash out button for a paltry £62 or something like that not realising he probably would have got more if he wasn,t too lazy to lift his finger and put the lay in himself). Wasn,t that BF,s initial explanation that the PC was brought in to attract new players to the site? Not sure does the test of time puts that in a good light.
If you had some proof that the site crashing frequently has cost you big time i,m sure they might have some sympathy,suppose it is too late now regarding the Voler la Vedette case if you got caught by her.
You are in a fierce moral quandary altogether Paulie and the question now remains "Do you or don,t you?" The email is a different matter entirely.
big boss......I couldn't moan any more to be fair......it was falling on deaf ears....even though im odds on to lose whatever I won back.......they don't seem to want me playing with them......now I don't mind losing but I cant get rid of it by paying some sort of made up winners tax......just because it suits them.....
pa lapsy.....they actually wanted to take 3k.....but there was only 2k in the account so they just gobbled that......if I had known they were coming there would have been zero in it......
I might send them the grand by post......and yed never know.....it may just bounce back to me.....like their e mail did to them....
I might send them the grand by post......and yed never know.....it may just bounce back to me.....like their e mail did to them....
don't speak to the monkeys on the standard customer service phone, speak to vip
I think its a bit late for that big boss......lets just say things got a fraction heated when I rung them last.....I'd imagine leniency is the last thing on their mind......
You should have been warned Paulie that,s without question,if the email "bounced back" surely they were aware and a phone call would be in order.
The first weeks PC is supposed to be "waived" in any case whether that is a concession to smaller amounts and mightn,t apply funnily enough to bigger amounts.
The first weeks PC is supposed to be "waived" in any case whether that is a concession to smaller amounts and mightn,t apply funnily enough to bigger amounts.
I think this is actually a case for the Monopolies Commission - |Betfair taking advantage of their position in the market to charge what they like. Would love to see it challenged.
You mean one of those small boats that need wind to move...
No...
No...
".....they actually wanted to take 3k.....but there was only 2k in the account so they just gobbled that......if I had known they were coming there would have been zero in it......"
Clearly,in reality you would have knocked BF for the lot if you could.
No further comment is needed.
Clearly,in reality you would have knocked BF for the lot if you could.
No further comment is needed.
If you believe you have a system which works and will continue to work then pay up, fifty percent of something is better than 100% of nothing.
I can win at poker (not on here) I don't want to pay the site I'm on a fee every time I play but that's life, look at it as being a business expense.
If in reality your making a profit then its not really you whose paying anything to Betfair its the losers who are paying the fee to the exchange. All you'll be doing is putting a figure of money in every week and taking a larger amount out.
If in contrast your pretty certain you've just had a bunch of flukey results then doing a runner becomes a viable option.
I can win at poker (not on here) I don't want to pay the site I'm on a fee every time I play but that's life, look at it as being a business expense.
If in reality your making a profit then its not really you whose paying anything to Betfair its the losers who are paying the fee to the exchange. All you'll be doing is putting a figure of money in every week and taking a larger amount out.
If in contrast your pretty certain you've just had a bunch of flukey results then doing a runner becomes a viable option.
Would Betfair,return the favour by giving me cash towards my virgin media costs,and my high electricity bill,and would they please stop running advertising on my computer screen because I do not like them.
it's been confirmed on this thread from regular PC payers that you have to have crossed the 250,000 profit line before you are considered for payment of PC
pw say's he's been a loser all his life and has recently hit a purple patch - does this mean that his recent winnings have cancelled out his lifetime BF loss and put him more than 250,000 into profit?
pw say's he's been a loser all his life and has recently hit a purple patch - does this mean that his recent winnings have cancelled out his lifetime BF loss and put him more than 250,000 into profit?
surely when you hit pc territory you open an account in someone elses name
swift tuttle......that 250k is propaganda spun by the company.....they have planted the idea that you had to win that amount of money before you qualified to pay this winners tax......aka the premium charge....it is in an effort to make sure that PC payers gain no sympathy from the average punter.....I know for absolute certain I won nowhere near that figure.....yet I now qualify.....
racingstar......I don't consider protecting what is mine as knocking......I do consider taking something that doesn't belong as unsavoury though......the thing is and i was in the same boat like yourself ......I never thought id have to pay it.....I could never envisage winning.....so I had no sympathy for anybody who did.....so I can see your viewpoint clearly.....another mug who just bets for the sake of it and who loses year after year.....I can clearly identify with that........
racingstar......I don't consider protecting what is mine as knocking......I do consider taking something that doesn't belong as unsavoury though......the thing is and i was in the same boat like yourself ......I never thought id have to pay it.....I could never envisage winning.....so I had no sympathy for anybody who did.....so I can see your viewpoint clearly.....another mug who just bets for the sake of it and who loses year after year.....I can clearly identify with that........
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.
The 250,000 threshold is nonsense.
Its theft and a theft that should damage their business as its basically saying we will not allow you win here.
It also makes them favour the customers paying it.
The gentleman with the fastest robot who mops up all the money on fallers is allowed mop away as Betfair are effectively in partnership.
It should be challenged but as they are based in Gibraltar that's where you would have to take your case.
Blazing Walkers suggestion about opening a new account is not feasible as they know what computer the bets came from and will levy the charge if only one bet came from that original computer.
Its theft and a theft that should damage their business as its basically saying we will not allow you win here.
It also makes them favour the customers paying it.
The gentleman with the fastest robot who mops up all the money on fallers is allowed mop away as Betfair are effectively in partnership.
It should be challenged but as they are based in Gibraltar that's where you would have to take your case.
Blazing Walkers suggestion about opening a new account is not feasible as they know what computer the bets came from and will levy the charge if only one bet came from that original computer.
If like most here you bet from home you are snookered.
Even if you use someone else's computer if they see a pattern they will levy the new account anyway.
Even if you use someone else's computer if they see a pattern they will levy the new account anyway.
Depending on your isp provider.
Some allow you to reset your ip address.
Change pcs , throw a few dummy bets.
How can they mark you as the same person ?
Some allow you to reset your ip address.
Change pcs , throw a few dummy bets.
How can they mark you as the same person ?
My experience was the same as above members. I did no trading laying etc, just win singles horse racing BFSP market.I was in front by an amount in the lower 5 fig range when they told me I must pay the PC.My thoughts are that by implementing this charge BF are mugging off all their members as amongst todays losers will be some future winners who will suffer the same.
I also had the 250k fig in mind and agree that this is a ploy to con the majority into thinking there is little wrong with penalising a small minority. I would like to return but winning is hard enough without having to also beat the PC.
I also had the 250k fig in mind and agree that this is a ploy to con the majority into thinking there is little wrong with penalising a small minority. I would like to return but winning is hard enough without having to also beat the PC.
blazing walker......what you say is possible.....but there are lots of factors that make it difficult......and at the end of the day they can do what they like and they know it......what they did to me is nothing compared with what they have done to others im aware of.....
Just bet elsewhere. Lots of bookies and exchanges to try.
If you can't get bets on online with the books, there's a huge number of shops everywhere.
YOMOMMA......there is no other exchange......herein lies the problem......that other thing has no customers......
try smarkets exchange it has the same odds as betfair and it's only 2% comm.
How much do you need to be winning to get hit with the PC ?
Greenhills 9.21 point is correct and PC can actually come into effect on higher 4 figure winnings,not a lot really given an account holder could be here 14 years. A customer lost whether betfair want him or not as he knows his style of betting can,t overcome a 20%+ minus starting point.
My cousin asked me about betfair and when I told him they charge so much he went and opened a William Hill account instead.
I bet he wont be able to get their advertised bonus from that bunch of rogues.
Perhaps we should all 'go on strike' for a week. In other words, don't anyone bet with them for a whole week and hopefully they will drop this PC outrage which is just sheer profiteering from punters' successes. So what if a punter wins £250,000, they will make very good commission from that in any case, so why take any more away!
Did betfair give you a losers rebate all those years you were losing?
If they didnt then they have no right to tax you now you are winning.
Take them to court and ridicule them into submission.
99% of the muppets on here should be regulary getting loser refunds if they are not getting it then this winners tax is clearly unfair.
If they didnt then they have no right to tax you now you are winning.
Take them to court and ridicule them into submission.
99% of the muppets on here should be regulary getting loser refunds if they are not getting it then this winners tax is clearly unfair.
Well said mokegibbon and this would work if we backers/customers worked together.Not just with the PC but also in other areas which could be deemed unfair.
A less radical suggestion I would ask BF to consider is to cancel the PC for money placed in the evening before and morning racing markets.I suspect this move would increase liquidity at these times and prove advantageous for all.?
A less radical suggestion I would ask BF to consider is to cancel the PC for money placed in the evening before and morning racing markets.I suspect this move would increase liquidity at these times and prove advantageous for all.?
betfair cant lose,its an exchange,backer loses layer wins visa versa.its pure greed.
Mar 23, 2014 -- 12:38PM, mokegibboni wrote:
Perhaps we should all 'go on strike' for a week. In other words, don't anyone bet with them for a whole week and hopefully they will drop this PC outrage which is just sheer profiteering from punters' successes. So what if a punter wins £250,000, they will make very good commission from that in any case, so why take any more away!
I'd be up for a non betting week , either on here or via the bookies , it would hit betting shops more if all the thick wit machine players and cartoon backers boycotted the shops. The industry is a shambles at present.
Mar 23, 2014 -- 12:38PM, mokegibboni wrote:
Perhaps we should all 'go on strike' for a week. In other words, don't anyone bet with them for a whole week and hopefully they will drop this PC outrage which is just sheer profiteering from punters' successes. So what if a punter wins £250,000, they will make very good commission from that in any case, so why take any more away!
Betfair don't take commission from winners though.
Collective action from us punters would be an interesting experiment. As an example BV are 8/1 a horse on odds checker you ask for £40 and are offered £4 (or less).Based on what I read this practise is on the increase. If every BV customer sent them an e mail along the lines of "Although not currently subjected to the above I am concerned that I could be in the future so will be withdrawing my custom until you clearly show on odds checker the min takeout you will allow at your advertised prices for all of your customers".
I suspect that those who are currently winners and subjected to the above treatment have previously been losers (an unfortunate part of the learning process for most of us)So it might well prove to be in the long term interest of all to attempt to get this sorted.
Consider the Racing Post arguably the only publication which has the clout to take the bookmakers to task over this and other poor practice they are certainly able but not willing to do so.This just leaves ourselves.
I suspect that those who are currently winners and subjected to the above treatment have previously been losers (an unfortunate part of the learning process for most of us)So it might well prove to be in the long term interest of all to attempt to get this sorted.
Consider the Racing Post arguably the only publication which has the clout to take the bookmakers to task over this and other poor practice they are certainly able but not willing to do so.This just leaves ourselves.
Mar 23, 2014 -- 2:01PM, loper wrote:
Betfair don't take commission from winners though.
Losers pay commission. Betfair pays on 95% of winnings onto the winners.
Hence they have to impose premium charge to stop big winners from destroying the ecosystem.
Loser loses $20 - comm 0 (@5%) = $20 loss
Winner wins $20 - comm 1 (@5%) = $19 win
Winner wins $20 - comm 1 (@5%) = $19 win
Or.
Loser pays £19 to winner
Loser pay £1 commission to Betfair.
A winner doesn't pay any money to Betfair, hence the loser pays the commission.
Loser pays £19 to winner
Loser pay £1 commission to Betfair.
A winner doesn't pay any money to Betfair, hence the loser pays the commission.
Nobody. Because Betfair wouldn't make any money and wouldn't exist. And that's the thinking behind PC.
Long-term winners don't pay (net) commission into the Betfair pot. They withdraw money and the losers money dwindles. Hence the ecosystem doesn't work.
That doesn't mean I agree with PC, and certainly doesn't mean I don't agree with some of the extortionate levels of PC.
Long-term winners don't pay (net) commission into the Betfair pot. They withdraw money and the losers money dwindles. Hence the ecosystem doesn't work.
That doesn't mean I agree with PC, and certainly doesn't mean I don't agree with some of the extortionate levels of PC.
Paulie, is right about the quarter of a million nonsense, I won £17972
in total and paid £1080 in premium charges, not had a bet on this site
for over 5 years.
in total and paid £1080 in premium charges, not had a bet on this site
for over 5 years.
There are 2 PCs.
The first and original is that anyone who doesn't have a minimum 20% comm rate will pay 20% regardless of lifetime winnings.
The second is that if you have won 250k over your BF lifetime, you will pay 60% PC if your lifetime comm rate is less than %5, 50% if less than 10%, and 40% if less than 40%.
All are questionable, but the 40% is a complete disgrace.
The first and original is that anyone who doesn't have a minimum 20% comm rate will pay 20% regardless of lifetime winnings.
The second is that if you have won 250k over your BF lifetime, you will pay 60% PC if your lifetime comm rate is less than %5, 50% if less than 10%, and 40% if less than 40%.
All are questionable, but the 40% is a complete disgrace.
An interesting read.
I am not going to comment on the moral 'rights and wrongs' of this particular situation but would like to point out a few things as there is quite a lot of misguided advice on this thread. Law is one of those topics that people think they know a lot more about than they do.
My background is that in my spare time, I volunteer and help out people with consumer law related problems (debt, county court claims, bankruptcy, fines etc). So, not a qualified lawyer but I do have the benefits of understanding the court system and contract law from first hand experience. *I don't claim I am right about everything though and so welcome being corrected or challenged!
Comments:
1. There is no provision for Betfair to update your credit file with negative information. When opening your account, Betfair may well have used a credit reference agency (CRA) to validate your identity but as no credit agreement was applied for or agreed to, this account will not appear on your file. You can check your file for free at www.noddle.com or pay £2 at Equifax (instant) or Experian (takes a few days). You will see that no data exists with regards to Betfair. If Betfair did attempt to trash your file, it would be an abuse of the system and Betfair could be sued for damages potentially.
2. Under the terms of your Betfair account, there is a provision to deduct money from your betting account balance to pay the premium charge. As unfair as the charge may seem, there is little you can do to claim it back as it is in the Ts&Cs and whilst the money is in your wallet, Betfair have access to it. The problem for Betfair is what to do when there are not enough funds in a customer's account to pay the entire charge, as is the case here. Effectively, a negative balance is created.
3. It is not lawful for Betfair to take money from any registered debit card to pay the remaining charge. Each transaction must be specifically instructed by the account holder. Any attempt like this and your bank would have to do a 'charge back' as you didn't authorise this.
4. If you don't pay up, Betfair may eventually issue a county court claim to you (as someone said earlier in the thread). Most claim forms are issued to scare the defendant into paying and only a small percentage of claims ever reach a hearing. I do not believe this has been tested in the County Court and it would be a risky move by Betfair to issue a claim and let it go all the way to a hearing. A ruling against them and the premium charge system would unravel. And all for the sake of £1,000.
Just because something is within the Ts&Cs, does not make it enforceable once a Judge looks at it.
If it did go all the way to hearing, it would almost certainly be on the Small Claims Track. Usually, with SCT cases, each side pays their own costs as long as both parties have followed Civil Procedure Rules correctly and acted reasonably throughout (as opposed to ignoring any attempt of resolution, vexatious litigation etc).
Worst case scenario, you lose and are ordered to pay the £1,000 plus a small amount of costs/fees. As long as you paid the judgement in full within 1 month, no CCJ would be registered, no further action would be taken, and you can move on with your life as if nothing happened apart from losing some money.
5. The claims process can be long and arduous. I mention this to dispel the myth that companies can easily sue you, give you a CCJ, and enforce it. This only happens when the defendant ignores the claim form (must be acknowledged within 14 days and responded to within 28 days) and the claimant gets a judgement in default. A defended claim (responding to the form and submitting it) often results in a withdrawal by the claimant, generally speaking.
6. Points 4 and 5 can be classed as 'getting ahead of ourselves' here as we are nowhere near this yet. However, it is important to see as many moves ahead as possible - a bit like chess! 4 & 5 also illustrate how commercially risky it can be for a company to get the court system involved. If you were Betfair, would you want to risk the creation of case law that says 'Premium Charge is not enforceable as a debt'??? Also, it would cost many thousands to claim £1,000 in a case like this.
7. One thing is for sure: you can expect not to be welcome to use Betfair in future if you don't pay. This is fair enough as it is Betfair's right to decide who they want as a customer and who the do not.
8. I am not suggesting you should try an avoid paying or advocating it.
Cheers
I am not going to comment on the moral 'rights and wrongs' of this particular situation but would like to point out a few things as there is quite a lot of misguided advice on this thread. Law is one of those topics that people think they know a lot more about than they do.
My background is that in my spare time, I volunteer and help out people with consumer law related problems (debt, county court claims, bankruptcy, fines etc). So, not a qualified lawyer but I do have the benefits of understanding the court system and contract law from first hand experience. *I don't claim I am right about everything though and so welcome being corrected or challenged!
Comments:
1. There is no provision for Betfair to update your credit file with negative information. When opening your account, Betfair may well have used a credit reference agency (CRA) to validate your identity but as no credit agreement was applied for or agreed to, this account will not appear on your file. You can check your file for free at www.noddle.com or pay £2 at Equifax (instant) or Experian (takes a few days). You will see that no data exists with regards to Betfair. If Betfair did attempt to trash your file, it would be an abuse of the system and Betfair could be sued for damages potentially.
2. Under the terms of your Betfair account, there is a provision to deduct money from your betting account balance to pay the premium charge. As unfair as the charge may seem, there is little you can do to claim it back as it is in the Ts&Cs and whilst the money is in your wallet, Betfair have access to it. The problem for Betfair is what to do when there are not enough funds in a customer's account to pay the entire charge, as is the case here. Effectively, a negative balance is created.
3. It is not lawful for Betfair to take money from any registered debit card to pay the remaining charge. Each transaction must be specifically instructed by the account holder. Any attempt like this and your bank would have to do a 'charge back' as you didn't authorise this.
4. If you don't pay up, Betfair may eventually issue a county court claim to you (as someone said earlier in the thread). Most claim forms are issued to scare the defendant into paying and only a small percentage of claims ever reach a hearing. I do not believe this has been tested in the County Court and it would be a risky move by Betfair to issue a claim and let it go all the way to a hearing. A ruling against them and the premium charge system would unravel. And all for the sake of £1,000.
Just because something is within the Ts&Cs, does not make it enforceable once a Judge looks at it.
If it did go all the way to hearing, it would almost certainly be on the Small Claims Track. Usually, with SCT cases, each side pays their own costs as long as both parties have followed Civil Procedure Rules correctly and acted reasonably throughout (as opposed to ignoring any attempt of resolution, vexatious litigation etc).
Worst case scenario, you lose and are ordered to pay the £1,000 plus a small amount of costs/fees. As long as you paid the judgement in full within 1 month, no CCJ would be registered, no further action would be taken, and you can move on with your life as if nothing happened apart from losing some money.
5. The claims process can be long and arduous. I mention this to dispel the myth that companies can easily sue you, give you a CCJ, and enforce it. This only happens when the defendant ignores the claim form (must be acknowledged within 14 days and responded to within 28 days) and the claimant gets a judgement in default. A defended claim (responding to the form and submitting it) often results in a withdrawal by the claimant, generally speaking.
6. Points 4 and 5 can be classed as 'getting ahead of ourselves' here as we are nowhere near this yet. However, it is important to see as many moves ahead as possible - a bit like chess! 4 & 5 also illustrate how commercially risky it can be for a company to get the court system involved. If you were Betfair, would you want to risk the creation of case law that says 'Premium Charge is not enforceable as a debt'??? Also, it would cost many thousands to claim £1,000 in a case like this.
7. One thing is for sure: you can expect not to be welcome to use Betfair in future if you don't pay. This is fair enough as it is Betfair's right to decide who they want as a customer and who the do not.
8. I am not suggesting you should try an avoid paying or advocating it.
Cheers
people where looking to challenge this 2-3 years ago would love to know what happened...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8782921/Betfair-removed-52000-from-customers-account.html
Why are you even giving BF this publicity? There are plenty of alternatives on the market who absolutely do not impose dubious premium charges on their loyal customers account. My dissertation many years ago was all about the downfall of IBM. For those who are not familiar with the story of IBM their downfall was they forgot who their customers were and treated them with little or no respect.Forget the customer forget the business, they go hand in hand. You know where I am going with this. I have been a BF member for years but unfortunately no longer. I will be switching my business elsewhere real soon where the odds are not quite as good and the market liquidity is not as good as BFs, but at least the company is transparent with its customers and their are absolutely no hidden charges.
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