Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
08 Nov 13
19:44
Joined:
Date Joined:
10 Jun 07
The gambling machines helping drug dealers 'turn dirty money clean'
Dealers talk to the Guardian about laundering drug money through fixed odds betting terminals in bookies across Britain
Randeep Ramesh, social affairs editor
The Guardian, Friday 8 November 2013 18.03 GMT
gambling machines drug dealers launder money
The Gambling Commission admitted in September what has long been privately acknowledged: FOBTs present a 'high inherent money laundering risk'. Photograph: Alamy
Dressed in a grey hoodie and jeans, James, 24, looks like just another lost soul on the high street, shuttling between the six betting shops in an east coast seaside town. It's a weekday morning and if you catch up with him inside a bookmaker, you'll find him peering intently into the green glowing screen of an electronic gambling machine – feeding in £200, "a score at a time".
But this is not a young gambler blowing his meagre wages. James is a drug dealer and his interest in the bookmakers – and the fixed odds betting terminals (FOBTs) in each shop – is all about laundering money. "That's what turns dirty money clean," he says.
Dealers feed their drug money through the machines, losing a little and then cashing out with the vast majority of their stake, James says. They can then collect a printed ticket showing they have gambled that day – meaning that if stopped by police, they can answer questions about why an apparently unemployed young man carries hundreds of pounds in rolled-up cash.
The FOBTs are probably the single most profitable pieces of property on the town centre's shabby pedestrian precinct. Each machine, according to industry figures, grosses about £900 a week. The 24 FOBTs within a few minutes' walk are worth an estimated £1m a year in profits to the betting industry.
The terminals only arrived in Britain in 2001. Lightly regulated from the outset, punters in bookmakers found they could bet £100 every 20 seconds on roulette. The temptation of high-speed, high-stake casino games on the high street proved irresistible: there are now 33,345 FOBTs in the UK.
However, a number of high-profile cases has exposed a seamier side to the rise of the machines. Earlier this month, the Gambling Commission, the industry regulator, fined Coral bookmakers £90,000 in profits it made from one drug dealer who had laundered almost £1m in its shops. Last month the industry regulator also publicly admitted what has long been privately acknowledged: FOBTs present a "high inherent money laundering risk". In a letter to the industry trade association, the commission warned about "a retail betting model that includes high volumes of cash transactions, particularly where this includes low individual spend and a high level of anonymity... especially where that model also offers (FOBTs)."
What the machines provide is the chance for criminals to convert quickly large sums of money from the real world into virtual cash that can later be converted back into the real thing. There is little official research into the scale and extent of such operations. The 2005 Gambling Act, which regulates the terminals, says one if its primary objectives is "preventing gambling from being a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime".
However, it has long been obvious to the public that criminals can convert their loot into a clean win on an electronic roulette table. Surveys for the commission show 40% of the public regularly identify gambling "with criminal activity". Notably the industry regulator found one in 14 respondents associated money laundering with gambling.
The Guardian persuaded a number of drug dealers to talk about their criminal pursuits. What was remarkable was that they saw FOBTs as both nuisance and necessary, trapping "weaker" people into addiction while allowing the "strong" to prosper. All exchanged tips with fellow dealers on the best ways to launder money – all were surprisingly frank about their methods.
James' strategy is simple: £20 on black, £20 on red and £2 on zero. A press of a button and the wheel spins before the ball lands on red. That's a loss of £2. The money placed on the zero is the only risk James is taking with his cash. If the ball does land on zero, he wins £72.
With no horses to run or a dealer to shuffle and just the 20-second spin of an electronic roulette wheel to wait for, it takes a little over a minute for this drug dealer to cash out. James says he knows that unless he gambles at least 40% of his float money that he has put in the machine, an alert will pop up on the staff computer warning them of suspicious activity. So he methodically places the same bet to make sure that he has wagered enough.
To ensure his winnings are not an unlikely round number, he loses some more money on the one-armed bandit. Leaving the tea brought over by the shop manager to go cold, James wanders over to the counter to collect his winnings in the form of a receipt – transforming the money he made from cocaine into apparent gambling winnings. He has lost a little more than £10. "You have to make it realistic," he says. "Bookies get nervous if you come in and just lose the same amount every day. So I vary it a little."
Drug dealers say that the reason fixed odds betting terminals are used is precisely because they are so lightly policed. James is careful not to visit the same shops in a pattern. Handily in the town there are 15 betting shops within walking distance of the main bus routes that snake through the suburbs and along the Thames estuary. "Smart dealers don't drive around here. You are more likely to be stopped by police driving around late at night doing deliveries than if you are taking a bus somewhere into town."
Then there are favoured bookies. Ladbrokes, says James, is useful because you can transfer winnings in the shop to an online gaming account. In William Hill's bookmakers you can ask for your winnings to be credited directly to your debit card, with the cash landing up in your bank the same day. "Look at my account and I am a very successful punter," he says.
wrap of cocaine
Selling cocaine in 0.8g wraps, James, a dealer, says he turns over about £5,500 of drugs – of which half is profit. Photograph: Andy Rain/EPA
The economics of drug dealing make it cost-effective to pay 5% to 10% to betting shops to launder the illicit profits. James claims to have about "100K" in his bank account. He sells about 56 grams (2oz) of ordinary cocaine a week and another 28g of a purer, more expensive version. "Normal customers like teachers, doctors they get the ordinary stuff. The cleaner gear is for the City boys."
James left school at 16 and worked in shops and restaurants before ending up in the City of London. "That's where I saw people using coke and I was asked if I could get some. I knew some people and I did. Never looked back. How long would it have taken to save £100,000 if I just continued doing admin in a bank?"
Selling cocaine in 0.8g wraps, in a week James turns over about £5,500 of drugs – of which half is profit. "I buy it on tick so you end up carrying a lot of money around. The trade is run by Albanians around here so it's best to have cash ready if you need to pay it back in a hurry."
Almost all of his money is laundered via FOBTs. James calculates he is worth £15,000 a year to the betting industry. "Valued customer," he grins. "I'd say there were about half a dozen of us [dealers] around here using machines. We swap tips. Where to go. Least crowded. Staff not bothered. That sort of thing. You don't want to be recognised too many times."
In opening up to the Guardian James says there is a risk that bookmakers in the coastal town will tighten up on who enters and who leaves: "Sure they could stop us but in the end they want the money.We can hang back for a bit and go somewhere else. Pretty soon they will relax and welcome us all back"
Bookmakers essentially regulate themselves: deciding whether to bar problem gamblers, call the police over violent behaviour or report crime. As the machines contributed £1.4bn to its bottom line last year there have been suspicions that the industry has played down the shady side of the terminals.
Adrian Parkinson, a former regional machines manager at the Tote, now with the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, said: "Money laundering on FOBTs has been a problem since their introduction. Whether it's cleaning notes from the proceeds of crime or drug dealers legitimising profits, it is well known in the industry that it goes on.
"I raised the issue some years ago at the Tote after being swamped with incidents of money laundering following a series of armed robberies but it's still going on."
Even worse, Parkinson says, that the technology is outpacing the law. He says by the end of the year customers in Coral bookmakers will be able to transfer any FOBT winnings to their online account. "The staff won't be able to intervene whatever their suspicions. The industry is riding rough shod over the licensing objectives. Keeping crime out of gambling has to take precedent over profit."
The Association of British Bookmakers said the industry complies fully with the law. William Hill said it had "robust systems" to meet its regulatory obligations. In a statement Ladrokes said: "Any criminal attempting to launder large sums are placing themselves at high risk of detection as they will be on CCTV and staff are trained to spot suspicious behaviour. Given most stakes in shops are small any large transactions are easily recognisable. Any attempt to transfer money to online accounts will require identity verification at account opening or first transactions which in conjunction with CCTV would be an excellent source of evidence for the police."
The media, too, has ensured gambling has become part of the national psyche. Advertising during televised football matches exhorts audiences to have a flutter. Electronic gambling found a younger audience who grew up setting up online bookmakers – and betting in cash – in massive multiplayer online role-playing games such as World of Warcraft. This year the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime warned that such games were being used by organised crime to launder cash.
Also helping to rehabilitate gambling is a new range of interactive TV programming. Late-night shows such as ITV's Jackpot247 – in which television viewers place bets online or over the phone, playing along to a live presenter-hosted roulette show – repolish gambling's image by treating electronic betting as a form of mainstream consumer entertainment.
Salford
Salford has 72 people chasing each vacancy. It was the only part of Greater Manchester which last year recorded a rise in numbers on jobseeker's allowance. Photograph: Christopher Thomond for the Guardian
This shift in the marketing of electronic gambling has also taken place as suspicions emerge that the industry has been targeting the poor. Last December, in a landmark paper for the Journal of Gambling Studies by Heather Wardle, a former project director of the British Gambling Prevalence Survey, warned gambling machines were more likely to be found in areas of high "socioeconomic deprivation". Earlier this year, the Guardian revealed that in the 50 parliamentary constituencies with the highest numbers of unemployed people, punters visited 1,251 betting shops and wagered an astonishing £5.6bn through 4,454 fixed odds betting terminals.
The presence of these machines appears to have a distorting effect on these moribund local economies. In a pub near Salford's Duchy estate, close to where rioting took place in 2011, two young men nursed pints of soft drink and explained how a vortex of soft drug sales, payday lenders and betting shops kept the local economy afloat. Salford has 72 people chasing each vacancy. It was the only part of Greater Manchester which last year recorded a rise in numbers on jobseeker's allowance (JSA).
Unemployed Jake, 28, sells marijuana on the local streets and smokes some of the profit. He recoups any losses by gambling and taking out loans at payday lenders. He points out the brown shopping arcade in Salford is lined with bookmakers and loan companies. "It's the only thriving industry around here," he smirks.
"There are six bookmakers, one more is on its way, and five loan shops. Even if you are on JSA you can borrow money from Speedy Cash. It's the main business around here.Take dole, turn it into weed, sell them, take your profits and put them into the machines. If you win, you are quids in. If you lose you get cash from the money shops to cover your losses. Back to dole and buying drugs. There's nothing else around here to do."
The drugs dealer admits that he is "a bit" addicted to gambling, comparing the thrill of betting on the electronic spin of a roulette wheel to rapid drug highs and lows. "You get a buzz. Which is why you might lose £16 or £1,600 and not notice until it's too late. I've done both."
The spread of betting shops in this part of the north-west is astonishing. Manchester city centre has 26 shops. A few miles away in deprived Cheetham Hill, dubbed the "Bronx of Britain" for gang violence, there are four bookies on the high street with another scheduled.Such bunching could be linked to the fact that bookmakers are limited to four machines a shop. As the machines are hugely lucrative the betting industry has bypassed the restriction by opening branches in high streets – "clustering" in poorer areas.
A betting shop manager in Greater Manchester, who agreed to be interviewed anonymously, said in Cheetham Hill FOBTs would easily earn £10,000 a week, four times the over-the-counter trade – and that local mobsters gambled heavily. "We get punters who lose big time on the FOBTs, punch them, chuck them to the ground. Smash them. We tell staff to play it cool. Don't call police. We don't want to arouse suspicions. It's madness. We employ young mothers in those shops on minimum wage.
"You have people laundering money every day with cash from robberies and drugs. Do you know that dyed notes from bank robberies can be submitted to the Bank of England and the company gets reimbursed. Staff know what pays their wages. They stay quiet."
Some names have been changed
Dealers talk to the Guardian about laundering drug money through fixed odds betting terminals in bookies across Britain
Randeep Ramesh, social affairs editor
The Guardian, Friday 8 November 2013 18.03 GMT
gambling machines drug dealers launder money
The Gambling Commission admitted in September what has long been privately acknowledged: FOBTs present a 'high inherent money laundering risk'. Photograph: Alamy
Dressed in a grey hoodie and jeans, James, 24, looks like just another lost soul on the high street, shuttling between the six betting shops in an east coast seaside town. It's a weekday morning and if you catch up with him inside a bookmaker, you'll find him peering intently into the green glowing screen of an electronic gambling machine – feeding in £200, "a score at a time".
But this is not a young gambler blowing his meagre wages. James is a drug dealer and his interest in the bookmakers – and the fixed odds betting terminals (FOBTs) in each shop – is all about laundering money. "That's what turns dirty money clean," he says.
Dealers feed their drug money through the machines, losing a little and then cashing out with the vast majority of their stake, James says. They can then collect a printed ticket showing they have gambled that day – meaning that if stopped by police, they can answer questions about why an apparently unemployed young man carries hundreds of pounds in rolled-up cash.
The FOBTs are probably the single most profitable pieces of property on the town centre's shabby pedestrian precinct. Each machine, according to industry figures, grosses about £900 a week. The 24 FOBTs within a few minutes' walk are worth an estimated £1m a year in profits to the betting industry.
The terminals only arrived in Britain in 2001. Lightly regulated from the outset, punters in bookmakers found they could bet £100 every 20 seconds on roulette. The temptation of high-speed, high-stake casino games on the high street proved irresistible: there are now 33,345 FOBTs in the UK.
However, a number of high-profile cases has exposed a seamier side to the rise of the machines. Earlier this month, the Gambling Commission, the industry regulator, fined Coral bookmakers £90,000 in profits it made from one drug dealer who had laundered almost £1m in its shops. Last month the industry regulator also publicly admitted what has long been privately acknowledged: FOBTs present a "high inherent money laundering risk". In a letter to the industry trade association, the commission warned about "a retail betting model that includes high volumes of cash transactions, particularly where this includes low individual spend and a high level of anonymity... especially where that model also offers (FOBTs)."
What the machines provide is the chance for criminals to convert quickly large sums of money from the real world into virtual cash that can later be converted back into the real thing. There is little official research into the scale and extent of such operations. The 2005 Gambling Act, which regulates the terminals, says one if its primary objectives is "preventing gambling from being a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime".
However, it has long been obvious to the public that criminals can convert their loot into a clean win on an electronic roulette table. Surveys for the commission show 40% of the public regularly identify gambling "with criminal activity". Notably the industry regulator found one in 14 respondents associated money laundering with gambling.
The Guardian persuaded a number of drug dealers to talk about their criminal pursuits. What was remarkable was that they saw FOBTs as both nuisance and necessary, trapping "weaker" people into addiction while allowing the "strong" to prosper. All exchanged tips with fellow dealers on the best ways to launder money – all were surprisingly frank about their methods.
James' strategy is simple: £20 on black, £20 on red and £2 on zero. A press of a button and the wheel spins before the ball lands on red. That's a loss of £2. The money placed on the zero is the only risk James is taking with his cash. If the ball does land on zero, he wins £72.
With no horses to run or a dealer to shuffle and just the 20-second spin of an electronic roulette wheel to wait for, it takes a little over a minute for this drug dealer to cash out. James says he knows that unless he gambles at least 40% of his float money that he has put in the machine, an alert will pop up on the staff computer warning them of suspicious activity. So he methodically places the same bet to make sure that he has wagered enough.
To ensure his winnings are not an unlikely round number, he loses some more money on the one-armed bandit. Leaving the tea brought over by the shop manager to go cold, James wanders over to the counter to collect his winnings in the form of a receipt – transforming the money he made from cocaine into apparent gambling winnings. He has lost a little more than £10. "You have to make it realistic," he says. "Bookies get nervous if you come in and just lose the same amount every day. So I vary it a little."
Drug dealers say that the reason fixed odds betting terminals are used is precisely because they are so lightly policed. James is careful not to visit the same shops in a pattern. Handily in the town there are 15 betting shops within walking distance of the main bus routes that snake through the suburbs and along the Thames estuary. "Smart dealers don't drive around here. You are more likely to be stopped by police driving around late at night doing deliveries than if you are taking a bus somewhere into town."
Then there are favoured bookies. Ladbrokes, says James, is useful because you can transfer winnings in the shop to an online gaming account. In William Hill's bookmakers you can ask for your winnings to be credited directly to your debit card, with the cash landing up in your bank the same day. "Look at my account and I am a very successful punter," he says.
wrap of cocaine
Selling cocaine in 0.8g wraps, James, a dealer, says he turns over about £5,500 of drugs – of which half is profit. Photograph: Andy Rain/EPA
The economics of drug dealing make it cost-effective to pay 5% to 10% to betting shops to launder the illicit profits. James claims to have about "100K" in his bank account. He sells about 56 grams (2oz) of ordinary cocaine a week and another 28g of a purer, more expensive version. "Normal customers like teachers, doctors they get the ordinary stuff. The cleaner gear is for the City boys."
James left school at 16 and worked in shops and restaurants before ending up in the City of London. "That's where I saw people using coke and I was asked if I could get some. I knew some people and I did. Never looked back. How long would it have taken to save £100,000 if I just continued doing admin in a bank?"
Selling cocaine in 0.8g wraps, in a week James turns over about £5,500 of drugs – of which half is profit. "I buy it on tick so you end up carrying a lot of money around. The trade is run by Albanians around here so it's best to have cash ready if you need to pay it back in a hurry."
Almost all of his money is laundered via FOBTs. James calculates he is worth £15,000 a year to the betting industry. "Valued customer," he grins. "I'd say there were about half a dozen of us [dealers] around here using machines. We swap tips. Where to go. Least crowded. Staff not bothered. That sort of thing. You don't want to be recognised too many times."
In opening up to the Guardian James says there is a risk that bookmakers in the coastal town will tighten up on who enters and who leaves: "Sure they could stop us but in the end they want the money.We can hang back for a bit and go somewhere else. Pretty soon they will relax and welcome us all back"
Bookmakers essentially regulate themselves: deciding whether to bar problem gamblers, call the police over violent behaviour or report crime. As the machines contributed £1.4bn to its bottom line last year there have been suspicions that the industry has played down the shady side of the terminals.
Adrian Parkinson, a former regional machines manager at the Tote, now with the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, said: "Money laundering on FOBTs has been a problem since their introduction. Whether it's cleaning notes from the proceeds of crime or drug dealers legitimising profits, it is well known in the industry that it goes on.
"I raised the issue some years ago at the Tote after being swamped with incidents of money laundering following a series of armed robberies but it's still going on."
Even worse, Parkinson says, that the technology is outpacing the law. He says by the end of the year customers in Coral bookmakers will be able to transfer any FOBT winnings to their online account. "The staff won't be able to intervene whatever their suspicions. The industry is riding rough shod over the licensing objectives. Keeping crime out of gambling has to take precedent over profit."
The Association of British Bookmakers said the industry complies fully with the law. William Hill said it had "robust systems" to meet its regulatory obligations. In a statement Ladrokes said: "Any criminal attempting to launder large sums are placing themselves at high risk of detection as they will be on CCTV and staff are trained to spot suspicious behaviour. Given most stakes in shops are small any large transactions are easily recognisable. Any attempt to transfer money to online accounts will require identity verification at account opening or first transactions which in conjunction with CCTV would be an excellent source of evidence for the police."
The media, too, has ensured gambling has become part of the national psyche. Advertising during televised football matches exhorts audiences to have a flutter. Electronic gambling found a younger audience who grew up setting up online bookmakers – and betting in cash – in massive multiplayer online role-playing games such as World of Warcraft. This year the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime warned that such games were being used by organised crime to launder cash.
Also helping to rehabilitate gambling is a new range of interactive TV programming. Late-night shows such as ITV's Jackpot247 – in which television viewers place bets online or over the phone, playing along to a live presenter-hosted roulette show – repolish gambling's image by treating electronic betting as a form of mainstream consumer entertainment.
Salford
Salford has 72 people chasing each vacancy. It was the only part of Greater Manchester which last year recorded a rise in numbers on jobseeker's allowance. Photograph: Christopher Thomond for the Guardian
This shift in the marketing of electronic gambling has also taken place as suspicions emerge that the industry has been targeting the poor. Last December, in a landmark paper for the Journal of Gambling Studies by Heather Wardle, a former project director of the British Gambling Prevalence Survey, warned gambling machines were more likely to be found in areas of high "socioeconomic deprivation". Earlier this year, the Guardian revealed that in the 50 parliamentary constituencies with the highest numbers of unemployed people, punters visited 1,251 betting shops and wagered an astonishing £5.6bn through 4,454 fixed odds betting terminals.
The presence of these machines appears to have a distorting effect on these moribund local economies. In a pub near Salford's Duchy estate, close to where rioting took place in 2011, two young men nursed pints of soft drink and explained how a vortex of soft drug sales, payday lenders and betting shops kept the local economy afloat. Salford has 72 people chasing each vacancy. It was the only part of Greater Manchester which last year recorded a rise in numbers on jobseeker's allowance (JSA).
Unemployed Jake, 28, sells marijuana on the local streets and smokes some of the profit. He recoups any losses by gambling and taking out loans at payday lenders. He points out the brown shopping arcade in Salford is lined with bookmakers and loan companies. "It's the only thriving industry around here," he smirks.
"There are six bookmakers, one more is on its way, and five loan shops. Even if you are on JSA you can borrow money from Speedy Cash. It's the main business around here.Take dole, turn it into weed, sell them, take your profits and put them into the machines. If you win, you are quids in. If you lose you get cash from the money shops to cover your losses. Back to dole and buying drugs. There's nothing else around here to do."
The drugs dealer admits that he is "a bit" addicted to gambling, comparing the thrill of betting on the electronic spin of a roulette wheel to rapid drug highs and lows. "You get a buzz. Which is why you might lose £16 or £1,600 and not notice until it's too late. I've done both."
The spread of betting shops in this part of the north-west is astonishing. Manchester city centre has 26 shops. A few miles away in deprived Cheetham Hill, dubbed the "Bronx of Britain" for gang violence, there are four bookies on the high street with another scheduled.Such bunching could be linked to the fact that bookmakers are limited to four machines a shop. As the machines are hugely lucrative the betting industry has bypassed the restriction by opening branches in high streets – "clustering" in poorer areas.
A betting shop manager in Greater Manchester, who agreed to be interviewed anonymously, said in Cheetham Hill FOBTs would easily earn £10,000 a week, four times the over-the-counter trade – and that local mobsters gambled heavily. "We get punters who lose big time on the FOBTs, punch them, chuck them to the ground. Smash them. We tell staff to play it cool. Don't call police. We don't want to arouse suspicions. It's madness. We employ young mothers in those shops on minimum wage.
"You have people laundering money every day with cash from robberies and drugs. Do you know that dyed notes from bank robberies can be submitted to the Bank of England and the company gets reimbursed. Staff know what pays their wages. They stay quiet."
Some names have been changed
Show More
As we live in a Democracy,it is called freedom of choice.
By the way,the drug dealers speak highly of them!
By the way,the drug dealers speak highly of them!
Again the old argument of the immoral....freedom of choice.What freedom of choice means to people who are prepared to exploit,steal and even cause death to to get what they want,is freedom to take what they want and fcuck everyone else even to the extent of killing them.
Last comment just about sums you up!!!!
Last comment just about sums you up!!!!
I should have realised that trying to reason with a cretin was futile.
Goodnight.
Goodnight.
As I said,if you can't understand basic arguments don't cone on and make a p rick of yourself.
Yes off you go with your tail between your legs,next time think before you try to be a smart a rse.
Yes off you go with your tail between your legs,next time think before you try to be a smart a rse.
In William Hill's bookmakers you can ask for your winnings to be credited directly to your debit card, with the cash landing up in your bank the same day. "Look at my account and I am a very successful punter," he says.
Wonder how much he's allowed e/w on the 1.40 at Rasen tomorrow!
Wonder how much he's allowed e/w on the 1.40 at Rasen tomorrow!
most drug dealers are doing nothing morally wrong imo,i for one am grateful they exist,most drug takers aren't hopelessly addicted and causing untold misery to their families either.
all drug users and drug dealers seem to be judged as if they're all on or dealing heroin or crack ,which are indeed moreish and do cause a lot of misery and crime.
this is not generally the case though, and people who don't know the differences between the many so called drugs shouldn't bother posting up their half assed ignorant opinions as they havn't got a clue what they are talking about.
all drug users and drug dealers seem to be judged as if they're all on or dealing heroin or crack ,which are indeed moreish and do cause a lot of misery and crime.
this is not generally the case though, and people who don't know the differences between the many so called drugs shouldn't bother posting up their half assed ignorant opinions as they havn't got a clue what they are talking about.
i thought everyone knew this the fobts just mean they dont have to go to an actual casino like they been doin forever to launder on the roulette
Since when was cash to cash money laundering.A player pumps a grand into a machine,walks out later with however much,that is NOT money laundering.They are on CCTV shown putting cash in,then going to the counter with their returns ticket to cash in ,that is not money laundering.
Dirty money has to be channeled through other means,not straight cash to cash.
For instance a business can show much higher cash takings,pay a bit of tax,job done.There has been a service,or purchases of some sort,whereas in a betting shop it is straight cash to cash.
Dirty money has to be channeled through other means,not straight cash to cash.
For instance a business can show much higher cash takings,pay a bit of tax,job done.There has been a service,or purchases of some sort,whereas in a betting shop it is straight cash to cash.
Wikipedia's definition: 'Money laundering is the process of concealing the true source of money that has been gained through illegitimate means'.
Funnelling cash through a FOBT is to disguise the source of the cash, so looks like it fits the definition to me.
Also, the FOBT 'winnings' can be paid to your online bookmaker account, which isn't 'cash for cash', if that's your definition.
Funnelling cash through a FOBT is to disguise the source of the cash, so looks like it fits the definition to me.
Also, the FOBT 'winnings' can be paid to your online bookmaker account, which isn't 'cash for cash', if that's your definition.
Of course it's cash to cash,as you have to put cash in to start with,and where has that cash come from in the first place?A guy walks in with a couple of grand to play-up on the FOBT.Question,where has he obtained that money to begin playing?That is the important part,not what you do with it after.
NO WAY is the money disguised when playing,as it is out in the open,and on CCTV.
So the player gets the money paid into an account,that means nothing,as the main point is that he played with cash from an unknown source to begin with.
There are many ways to launder cash,but playing on a FOBT isn't one.
Hand car washing places spring to mind.Easy to "bump up" the turnover.
NO WAY is the money disguised when playing,as it is out in the open,and on CCTV.
So the player gets the money paid into an account,that means nothing,as the main point is that he played with cash from an unknown source to begin with.
There are many ways to launder cash,but playing on a FOBT isn't one.
Hand car washing places spring to mind.Easy to "bump up" the turnover.
unbiased , man puts £1000 in fobt
puts £10 on red , £10 on black and 30p on 0
spins for 20 minutes
cashes in the ticket for £980 , goes to the counter to collect . cashier says , "we don't have that amount of money here , can you come back later or I can give you a cheque"
puts the cheque into bank , source of money is a win at the bookies .
are you seriously saying that the taxman will trace the money to the individual bookmaker shop , look on cctv , try and find what machine is played , look at how it is played and its history ?
I doubt it very much
puts £10 on red , £10 on black and 30p on 0
spins for 20 minutes
cashes in the ticket for £980 , goes to the counter to collect . cashier says , "we don't have that amount of money here , can you come back later or I can give you a cheque"
puts the cheque into bank , source of money is a win at the bookies .
are you seriously saying that the taxman will trace the money to the individual bookmaker shop , look on cctv , try and find what machine is played , look at how it is played and its history ?
I doubt it very much
Nov 9, 2013 -- 10:48PM, robbie fowler is god wrote:
i thought everyone knew this the fobts just mean they dont have to go to an actual casino like they been doin forever to launder on the roulette
Casinos have specific reporting requirements under money laundering regs, bookies don't.
Apologies if posted previously ... John O shea pro gambler, explaining how he gets large footie bets on by dressing up as a drug dealer and going to the seediest parts of town "Its the business they're looking to take" 25 minutes in ... good doc worth a watch
http://www.pokertube.com/videos/the-gambler-john-oshea-documentary/
http://www.pokertube.com/videos/the-gambler-john-oshea-documentary/
i've seen that doc. that guy is a muppet imo.
now every dodgepot in dublin knows what he looks like and that he cycles to bookies in the worst parts of town with thousands of euro's stuffed in his tracksuit.
now every dodgepot in dublin knows what he looks like and that he cycles to bookies in the worst parts of town with thousands of euro's stuffed in his tracksuit.
you have to be very, VERY, naive to think that the bookies DONT know that this happens....they let it slip straight under the carpet the same as problem gamblers.
go into any inner city LBO and you'll see gangsters, drug dealers and pimps all pumping money in them, £1000s in a afternoon and its all part of the act.
if you disagree with any of that you must live out in the sticks or not in the real world.
go into any inner city LBO and you'll see gangsters, drug dealers and pimps all pumping money in them, £1000s in a afternoon and its all part of the act.
if you disagree with any of that you must live out in the sticks or not in the real world.
So bookmakers are knowingly working with drug dealers to launder their money.
Again a corrupted racing media say nothing.As always the only way the truth gets out is through real journalists,,who are not in the bookmakers back pocket.
Again a corrupted racing media say nothing.As always the only way the truth gets out is through real journalists,,who are not in the bookmakers back pocket.
the bookies couldnt give a flying **** where the money comes from for FOBT usage and why would they? they cream off a % off every £100 spin from the illicit gains so its happy days all round, champagne corks popping when the yearly profit gets announced. that cretin with the beard from hills slapping his pals on the back....good work chaps.
****s the lot of them.
****s the lot of them.
There are some absurd theories being put up.Meanwhile no poster has responded to the question as to where the cash comes from in the first place.The manager's I have spoken to from various of the big firms,say that everything is logged on the FOBT's,and ,to repeat ,the players are on CCTV.
The example of £10,£10,30p, on a number of spins in order to guarantee a win is laughable.That isn't an example of money laundering.
Where did the cash come from to start playing?
The example of £10,£10,30p, on a number of spins in order to guarantee a win is laughable.That isn't an example of money laundering.
Where did the cash come from to start playing?
Unb.
Fact stood in my shop bloke spunked a grand kicked machine and said "oh well just have to sell another load of coke" and i dont think he ment cans of.
Manger does not give a shyte he is hitting his targets with ease every month.
Fact stood in my shop bloke spunked a grand kicked machine and said "oh well just have to sell another load of coke" and i dont think he ment cans of.
Manger does not give a shyte he is hitting his targets with ease every month.
Nov 10, 2013 -- 12:33PM, unbiased wrote:
There are some absurd theories being put up.Meanwhile no poster has responded to the question as to where the cash comes from in the first place.The manager's I have spoken to from various of the big firms,say that everything is logged on the FOBT's,and ,to repeat ,the players are on CCTV. The example of £10,£10,30p, on a number of spins in order to guarantee a win is laughable.That isn't an example of money laundering. Where did the cash come from to start playing?
the assertion that cash to cash is money laundering or that a court would believe that any substantial amount of cash had been won on fobts is obv nonsense, but the ability to get cash into an online account or bank account is "placement" - the first stage in laundering - and should not be allowed.
As we know Unbiased your bosses always tell the truth and they would say that wouldn't they.
The intention and result of what happens to drug and criminal money that goes through betting shops,is that it turns dirty money into clean money.So the money is laundered while the criminals and the bookmakers get what they want.
The intention and result of what happens to drug and criminal money that goes through betting shops,is that it turns dirty money into clean money.So the money is laundered while the criminals and the bookmakers get what they want.
Oh lord 44 i never realised he was/is one of them
Think so G always takes their side.Starting to miss the battles with the 3 stooges banks,Clive and corb. The only villain left on here is Mfordy and he's just a nutter!!!
toronto,don't presume.As for my bosses,you haven't a clue how I earn my living.
What I do object to is the numerous silly theories,and lack of proof of wrongdoings.For that reason many objections have failed.No concrete proof,just assumptions,accompanied by an anti stance.
I am against restricting people's freedom of choice,so long as it is within the law.
My thoughts on the machines,which I wouldn't play,are that the high returns to the firms bothers some.Why,I will never know,as it is just another form of gambling.
I am not for,nor against,just think that they have been there for many years,so are not a new phenomenon.More important issues in this world to worry about than how people spend their money.
What I do object to is the numerous silly theories,and lack of proof of wrongdoings.For that reason many objections have failed.No concrete proof,just assumptions,accompanied by an anti stance.
I am against restricting people's freedom of choice,so long as it is within the law.
My thoughts on the machines,which I wouldn't play,are that the high returns to the firms bothers some.Why,I will never know,as it is just another form of gambling.
I am not for,nor against,just think that they have been there for many years,so are not a new phenomenon.More important issues in this world to worry about than how people spend their money.
unbiased sounds like a ****
deffo on the payroll.
deffo on the payroll.
.No concrete proof,just assumptions,accompanied by an anti stance.
show me some proof that that fobts are just another form of gambling
show me some proof that that fobts are just another form of gambling
A bookmaker is meant to to lay odds. I don't see why FOBT's are in use outside of a club or casino. Bookmakers tend to be quite concerned about people spending money on hot horses but no regard for the misuse of these cash terminals.
All bullocks unbiased and you know it.
Massive difference between ok gambling and FOBTS that are designed( with help of the shops) to suck people in and addict them.Everyone knows(even the shop managers who post)and studies have shown that these machines are destroying tens of thousands of lives(including the innocent families)and in extreme cases causing many suicides.
So would your freedom of choice extend to sale of heroin in play grounds,if the law allowed it.Dont you have as most people have their own sense of right or wrong or is your sense of right and wrong only directed by a corrupt,complicit state,your bosses and because there is a few bob in it for you.
Freedom of choice in this case,means already wealthy and immoral people stealing from and destroying the lives of the weak and poor.
Massive difference between ok gambling and FOBTS that are designed( with help of the shops) to suck people in and addict them.Everyone knows(even the shop managers who post)and studies have shown that these machines are destroying tens of thousands of lives(including the innocent families)and in extreme cases causing many suicides.
So would your freedom of choice extend to sale of heroin in play grounds,if the law allowed it.Dont you have as most people have their own sense of right or wrong or is your sense of right and wrong only directed by a corrupt,complicit state,your bosses and because there is a few bob in it for you.
Freedom of choice in this case,means already wealthy and immoral people stealing from and destroying the lives of the weak and poor.
toronto44 -- This is a forum on a p2p gambling site, everyone in this thread wants your money and doesn't give one where it comes for.
I worked in a pub in Glasgow decades ago, when "fair friday" - the start of the holiday fortnight- was a big thing. The bookies were full of people spunking away their (and their families) holiday money on horses and dogs. People are always going to make bad decisions where gambling is concerned and to single out particular sectors is simply hypocrisy.
I worked in a pub in Glasgow decades ago, when "fair friday" - the start of the holiday fortnight- was a big thing. The bookies were full of people spunking away their (and their families) holiday money on horses and dogs. People are always going to make bad decisions where gambling is concerned and to single out particular sectors is simply hypocrisy.
toronto,you write total tosh!Have you been drinking too much.
Heroin!School playgrounds!A few bob in it for you!Stealing!Sounds like a meltdown!
By the way,my sense of right ,or wrong,has served me well.
Try thinking about what you post,rather than just jumping to highly inaccurate conclusions,especially about posters you know nothing whatsoever about.
Heroin!School playgrounds!A few bob in it for you!Stealing!Sounds like a meltdown!
By the way,my sense of right ,or wrong,has served me well.
Try thinking about what you post,rather than just jumping to highly inaccurate conclusions,especially about posters you know nothing whatsoever about.
I agree gambling taken as a whole is probably a bad thing.But there has to be a balance between pleasure,entertainment given and harm done.Just as I said before with alcohol.The balance of and potential for,of damage done on FOBTS crosses way over that line..To be just a device for immoral greedy people with the permission of the government to steal from stupid and vulnerable people.Often because so many working people have been betrayed by politicians(who's own kids get one of the best educations in the world)who have forced on them the worst education in the developed world.
Surely you have to draw a line somewhere or do you keep excusing every evil because there are already bad things allowed.
Surely you have to draw a line somewhere or do you keep excusing every evil because there are already bad things allowed.
unbiased you said
No concrete proof,just assumptions,accompanied by an anti stance.
show me some proof that that fobts are just another form of gambling
there is plenty of evidence that not all forms of gambling are the same , or do you just choose to ignore them ?
if all gambling is the same , you would expect there to be many more problem gamblers from the lottery as millions of people play it , but that isn't the case .
how do you explain that ?
No concrete proof,just assumptions,accompanied by an anti stance.
show me some proof that that fobts are just another form of gambling
there is plenty of evidence that not all forms of gambling are the same , or do you just choose to ignore them ?
if all gambling is the same , you would expect there to be many more problem gamblers from the lottery as millions of people play it , but that isn't the case .
how do you explain that ?
So no answer to my points then UB just a stomp of your feet and a seethe.
Heroin in playgrounds is just taking to the extreme your argument of everything is ok if the state allow it.
Heroin in playgrounds is just taking to the extreme your argument of everything is ok if the state allow it.
As someone has already said, Casinos have to fill out a Suspisious Activity Report any time they see anything that might be seen as money laundering. Betting shops are under no such obligation. It's the same with problem gambling. Try getting a bet on here or visiting a casino after self-excluding. You'll find it nigh on impossible. If some poor unfortunate does his wages and self excludes from a Lads there is almost nothing in place to stop him going to the next one down the road.
its not for laundering proper money but for the young kids serving for the drug gangs if u not got a income and u get pulled and have £300 on u the cops nick it but if u have a reciept for it from bookies they wont,u carnt even leave the country with 1k without having to prove were it came from now a days its a joke
casinos might have regulations dosnt mean they follow them is like the paki owned money transfer shops have money laundering regulations like western u ,yes it says it on the bottom of the slip but they dont give a **** about it and u can write what u like on the form they aint going to grass u
casinos might have regulations dosnt mean they follow them is like the paki owned money transfer shops have money laundering regulations like western u ,yes it says it on the bottom of the slip but they dont give a **** about it and u can write what u like on the form they aint going to grass u
The post yesterday by Toronto when he said,"cue the nutters" is Comedy Gold.
ROFFL
ROFFL
racingstar 2 points
1 . you was the first to respond after he made that comment
2. you seriously need to get a life if you found that to be comedy gold
1 . you was the first to respond after he made that comment
2. you seriously need to get a life if you found that to be comedy gold
unbiased as you will have read many of us have watched these people putting huge sums into theses machines and clearly to order.
what is your explanation, harmless recreational gambling?
you should give up now, you are making a t1t of yourself.
what is your explanation, harmless recreational gambling?
you should give up now, you are making a t1t of yourself.
rcing,
I cannot believe how many morons get their knickers in a twist over FOBT's.
The plebians on here who scream from the rooftops about them beggars belief.
The weak willed will always find new ways to "cremate".
It amuses me to see the Forum going into apoplexy over such trivia.
By the way,I would not play on one with stolen money.
However,this does not go down to well with the Plebs.
I will take an occasional look to see the Torontoites going into meltdown over such a non issue.
I cannot believe how many morons get their knickers in a twist over FOBT's.
The plebians on here who scream from the rooftops about them beggars belief.
The weak willed will always find new ways to "cremate".
It amuses me to see the Forum going into apoplexy over such trivia.
By the way,I would not play on one with stolen money.
However,this does not go down to well with the Plebs.
I will take an occasional look to see the Torontoites going into meltdown over such a non issue.
Is ther any maximum of cash that can be taken for a bet .Iknow that many car auctions have maximums that are set by the goverment to stop money laundering, or is bookmaking a free for all.
racing posts last post.....summed up
I have nothing new to say other than to repeat the same old bookmakers s hite.I don't care what happens to other people as long as I get my meagre pay cheque.Really just a complete tool who thinks he is a lot smarter than he is.
I have nothing new to say other than to repeat the same old bookmakers s hite.I don't care what happens to other people as long as I get my meagre pay cheque.Really just a complete tool who thinks he is a lot smarter than he is.
racingstar , to insult people by calling them plebs because you dont agree with there views is childish imo .
you are right that gamblers will gamble and fritter away there money , but all gambling is not the same .
like i said to unbiased :
if all gambling is the same , you would expect there to be many more problem gamblers from the lottery as millions of people play it , but that isn't the case .
how do you explain that ?
you are right that gamblers will gamble and fritter away there money , but all gambling is not the same .
like i said to unbiased :
if all gambling is the same , you would expect there to be many more problem gamblers from the lottery as millions of people play it , but that isn't the case .
how do you explain that ?
Toronto,
The only income I derive is from my betting and have done very well for many years.
A blindfolded Chimp would be smarter than you,imo.
Quite frankly,I get annoyed by our once great Country allowing non contributing ponces in here and paying them benefits without them ever contributing.However,this is not a popular view today.
Such is life.
rcing,
Did I say that all gambling is the same?
I do not have to explain anything other than my previous comments.
I do not give a rats crap about weakwilled losers and,even if I did,I could not alter the situation.
I will leave it to the "Plebs" to bleat away on here.
The only income I derive is from my betting and have done very well for many years.
A blindfolded Chimp would be smarter than you,imo.
Quite frankly,I get annoyed by our once great Country allowing non contributing ponces in here and paying them benefits without them ever contributing.However,this is not a popular view today.
Such is life.
rcing,
Did I say that all gambling is the same?
I do not have to explain anything other than my previous comments.
I do not give a rats crap about weakwilled losers and,even if I did,I could not alter the situation.
I will leave it to the "Plebs" to bleat away on here.
The biggest problems for the books at the moment regarding the fobts is fake Scottish money, its of such a high standard that the fobts aren't recognising its fake.
I got an email with a picture and names of the main 2 dodge pots flooding the area last week and unfortunately I happen to know them!!
I got an email with a picture and names of the main 2 dodge pots flooding the area last week and unfortunately I happen to know them!!
That does not come as a complete surprise,Ronnie!
Live long and prosper.
Live long and prosper.
Nov 10, 2013 -- 6:45PM, swampy wrote:
Is ther any maximum of cash that can be taken for a bet .Iknow that many car auctions have maximums that are set by the goverment to stop money laundering, or is bookmaking a free for all.
as discussed above casinos and dealers in high value goods eg cars are subject to money laundering regs but bookies aren't
Ronnie,
Do you still work in the Shops?
If so,can the FOBT's provide a detailed print out on the P&L of each user?
Do you still work in the Shops?
If so,can the FOBT's provide a detailed print out on the P&L of each user?
Any customer who bets in a casino or online is subjected to Enhanced Due Diligence Checks if they deposit more than €2,000.
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/Prevention%20of%20money%20laundering%20and%20combating%20the%20financing%20of%20terrorism%20guidance%20for%20remote%20and%20non-remote%20casinos%20-%20July%202013.pdf
There are no such rules for Betting Shops.
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/Prevention%20of%20money%20laundering%20and%20combating%20the%20financing%20of%20terrorism%20guidance%20for%20remote%20and%20non-remote%20casinos%20-%20July%202013.pdf
There are no such rules for Betting Shops.
Barry,
No Casino player that actually attends is under any such obligation.
No Casino player that actually attends is under any such obligation.
racing star
yes to my dismay I'm still there, the answer is yes and we even have on our screens now the punters fav drinks and how many sugars etc.
they aren't really bothering with monitored bets anymore we now have to monitor the fobt customers as vips! yep vips.
yes to my dismay I'm still there, the answer is yes and we even have on our screens now the punters fav drinks and how many sugars etc.
they aren't really bothering with monitored bets anymore we now have to monitor the fobt customers as vips! yep vips.
Ronnie,
I was trying to establish whether it is possible to "prove" the P&L of a supposed Drug Dealer.
I was trying to establish whether it is possible to "prove" the P&L of a supposed Drug Dealer.
racingstar
the fobts are now so up to date the records can be pulled to show all transactions that were played on any date, you can even do a print out of what a punters done as they are playing.
the vip customers are now monitored as soon as they go onto a machine, if they leave machine 1 to go to machine 2 you have to monitor that, likewise if they are on more than 1 machine at a time.
I get a email every week of how much each vip customer has staked and their loses and gains, talk about big brother is watching!
the fobts are now so up to date the records can be pulled to show all transactions that were played on any date, you can even do a print out of what a punters done as they are playing.
the vip customers are now monitored as soon as they go onto a machine, if they leave machine 1 to go to machine 2 you have to monitor that, likewise if they are on more than 1 machine at a time.
I get a email every week of how much each vip customer has staked and their loses and gains, talk about big brother is watching!
lol If the guardian knew that they would be doing a feature in their NSA/Snowden series
Ronnie,
Thanks.
That seems to safely rule out the ludicrous claims of "Money Laundering".
No doubt the FOBT's will be blamed for Global Warming soon!
Thanks.
That seems to safely rule out the ludicrous claims of "Money Laundering".
No doubt the FOBT's will be blamed for Global Warming soon!
So a bookmaker comes on and tells racing star that everything is above board and the dimwit says that must rule.out any possibility of any wrong doing.
Bless him!!!
Bless him!!!
and they aren't even bothering with monitoring bets anymore RS......that must be true as well because RONNIE said so!!!
So from tomorrow we can all get what we want on.Talk about one born every minute.
So from tomorrow we can all get what we want on.Talk about one born every minute.
Who tells the FOBT machine what their preferred drink is?
Do the staff input it?
Do the staff input it?
Toronto,
Ronnie is not a Bookmaker he works for Bookmakers you moron.
He stated that there is a permanent record of all bets .
Now,is that too difficult for an obsessed cretin like you to comprehend?
Ronnie is not a Bookmaker he works for Bookmakers you moron.
He stated that there is a permanent record of all bets .
Now,is that too difficult for an obsessed cretin like you to comprehend?
Yes silly bo locks your new pal RONNIE is a bookmaker.The clue is in that they pay his wages.
Yep ok RS you believe what you want to believe.No doubt if Ronnie comes on and tells you bookmakers are all decent chaps who are only in it to help improve people's lives.You will be on saying there I told you bookmakers were all decent chaps because fcuking RONNIE said so.
Yep ok RS you believe what you want to believe.No doubt if Ronnie comes on and tells you bookmakers are all decent chaps who are only in it to help improve people's lives.You will be on saying there I told you bookmakers were all decent chaps because fcuking RONNIE said so.
did ronnie mention the case below? i think he works for them does he not? i suspect that has a lot to do with why they are forced to keep closer records now.
despite the fact everyone, including corals (eventually), agrees he laundered some of his filthy luca through the fobts i'm guessing racingstar will still decide he simply does not want to believe it.
In a rare admission that betting shops could be used to conceal the source of ill-gotten gains, the Gambling Commission said Coral would have to pay back
the £90,000 it made from a single customer who visited shops in north-east England. The man in his 30s, who cannot be named while he is waiting to be sentenced, was charged by police in Durham as part of a campaign against organised crime.
despite the fact everyone, including corals (eventually), agrees he laundered some of his filthy luca through the fobts i'm guessing racingstar will still decide he simply does not want to believe it.
In a rare admission that betting shops could be used to conceal the source of ill-gotten gains, the Gambling Commission said Coral would have to pay back
the £90,000 it made from a single customer who visited shops in north-east England. The man in his 30s, who cannot be named while he is waiting to be sentenced, was charged by police in Durham as part of a campaign against organised crime.
No RONNIE says it was all above board and the customer was monitored.So if he was monitored by orals he can't possibly be doing anything wrong!
You should be in a "Secure Unit",Toronto.
God forbid that you should ever do Jury Service.
God forbid that you should ever do Jury Service.
Who makes them is irrelevant; who licensed them is the issue.
Step forward The Labour Party.
I have to disagree with racingstar and others. This is clearly money laundering; whether it is the same notes proffered back as payment as those put in is not the point. The point is that a legitimized "receipt" has been obtained.
Also there will always be controls on the extent to which gambling is permitted. Hours of business, stakes , speed of play will all be prescribed. They are now ffs. The issue is whether the current regime is appropriate.
In my view, in relation to FOBTs, the answer is no it isn't.
Step forward The Labour Party.
I have to disagree with racingstar and others. This is clearly money laundering; whether it is the same notes proffered back as payment as those put in is not the point. The point is that a legitimized "receipt" has been obtained.
Also there will always be controls on the extent to which gambling is permitted. Hours of business, stakes , speed of play will all be prescribed. They are now ffs. The issue is whether the current regime is appropriate.
In my view, in relation to FOBTs, the answer is no it isn't.
Agree but this government have seen the damage and also done nothing
You must have been bullied as a child,Toronto.
I will leave you "certifiables" to pat each other on the back whilst the Mugs are forced at Gunpoint to play the "Evil" machines.
ROFFL.
Further discussion is pointless.
I will leave you "certifiables" to pat each other on the back whilst the Mugs are forced at Gunpoint to play the "Evil" machines.
ROFFL.
Further discussion is pointless.
Nov 10, 2013 -- 10:16PM, northanlite wrote:
did ronnie mention the case below? i think he works for them does he not? i suspect that has a lot to do with why they are forced to keep closer records now. despite the fact everyone, including corals (eventually), agrees he laundered some of his filthy luca through the fobts i'm guessing racingstar will still decide he simply does not want to believe it.In a rare admission that betting shops could be used to conceal the source of ill-gotten gains, the Gambling Commission said Coral would have to pay back the £90,000 it made from a single customer who visited shops in north-east England. The man in his 30s, who cannot be named while he is waiting to be sentenced, was charged by police in Durham as part of a campaign against organised crime.
They reported the man (who was gambling everywhere not just Jcrals)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/07/bookmaker-coral-gambling-commission-money-launderer
btw there is an important distinction to be made between old fashioned money laundering - which was all about concealing the origin of funds and legitimising them - and post-POCA money laundering -which was doing anything at all with criminal money- (and results in almost every dealer or financial criminal being charged with laundering as well as the original crime). I suspect that this case was the latter kind.
Despite Coral submitting a suspicious activity report about the takings to the regulator, "little or no challenge was made by the operator, although there were extensive and realistic opportunities to do so". The commission said Coral chose instead to "recognise the significance of the customer from a commercial perspective" – and gave him a complimentary day at the races as a valuable customer.
Money laundering, addiction and the social cancer of High Street betting shops
By DOMINIC LAWSON
PUBLISHED: 01:27, 11 November 2013 | UPDATED: 01:32, 11 November 2013
When social historians assess the impact of the Blair administrations on the face of Britain they should examine the passing of the 2005 Gambling Act.
This was the legislation that allowed bookmaking firms to install so-called Fixed Odds Betting Terminals on any High Street in the land.
These machines are an electronically turbo-charged form of roulette, a game which hitherto had been restricted to membership-only casinos.
Crisis: I hadn't realised the fixed-odds terminals had become fabulously convenient for drug launderers
Crisis: I hadn't realised the fixed-odds terminals had become fabulously convenient for drug launderers
The fixed-odds terminals offer stakes of up to £100 per ‘spin’ at intervals of 20 seconds — roughly four times as rapid as traditional roulette.
There are now almost 35,000 such machines on our High Streets, with an overwhelming concentration in areas of high welfare dependency: following a parliamentary question, it was revealed that in one East London constituency alone in 2011, £243,270,300 had been staked in 164 high-stakes betting machines.
More...
Listen up, Britain! The people who get everything wrong say we can't leave the EU
Miliband targets payday loan firms that run cartoon-like adverts during children's programmes
City wants ban on 'crack cocaine' betting machines: Liverpool Council warns people are losing jobs and turning to loan sharks because they are addicted to games
They don’t have signs saying ‘benefit cheques welcome here’ — because they scarcely need to: it just happens anyway, and on a vast scale.
Crimes
I knew how this ‘crack-cocaine of gambling’ (as its opponents describe it) had been sucking funds from the families who could least afford it: the opposite of the old-style Mayfair casinos which specialised in recycling the inherited wealth of bored or degenerate aristocrats.
What I hadn’t realised was how the fixed-odds terminals had become a fabulously convenient way for drug dealers to launder the proceeds of their crimes.
I am wiser but angrier, having read last Saturday’s Guardian, which contained an outstanding investigation into this phenomenon.
Need for review: Campaign for Fairer Gambling has had no success fighting for legal framework to be re-examined
Need for review: Campaign for Fairer Gambling has had no success fighting for legal framework to be re-examined
The newspaper’s Randeep Ramesh had spoken to a number of drug dealers, who revealed how this gold mine for the leading bookmaking firms was also criminals’ preferred means of getting ‘hot’ money into their bank accounts via a third party — minus, of course, their losses on the terminals.
Because these terminals are now so widely spread, it is possible for the drug dealers to launder small amounts at each individual outlet, and thus help avoid suspicion.
The investigation quotes a drug dealer called James: ‘There are favoured bookies. Ladbrokes is useful because you can transfer winnings in a shop to an online gaming account. In William Hill’s you can ask for your winnings to be credited directly to your debit card.’ As Ramesh notes, the economics of drug dealing make it cost-effective to pay ‘losses’ to betting shops in order to launder the illicit profits.
Another dealer, Jake, tells the Guardian’s reporter: ‘Even if you are on jobseeker’s allowance you can borrow money from Speedy Cash. Take dole, turn it into weed, sell them [sic], take your profits and put them into the machines. If you win, you are quids in. If you lose, you get cash from the money shops to cover your losses.’
Historical move: Tony Blair's administration passed a law with clear loopholes
Jake, it seems, is one of those who has become addicted to the terminals — the wider social problem that would remain however vigilant the bookmakers are at identifying those using their fixed-odds terminals for illicit purposes.
In fact, this entire business is based on exploiting a legal loophole. As Matt Zarb-Cousin, of the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, explained it to me: ‘Bookmakers have a betting licence, and betting is a wager on an event that takes place outside the premises.
‘Gaming is a wager that takes place inside the premises, and only casinos had a licence for this. So what the bookmakers did to get around this was place the server which determined the result of each event . . . with a satellite system.’
Brilliant: the ‘event’ takes place not illicitly on a High Street in Liverpool or East London, but legally in space.
So far, the Campaign For Fairer Gambling has had no success in persuading the current government to re-examine the legal framework — for example by capping the fixed-odds terminals at £2 per spin, the level to which all other gaming machines are limited.
Last month, the Culture Secretary Maria Miller rejected calls to cut the maximum stake. It is not hard to understand the Government’s reluctance to put a brake on this tawdry trade: fixed-odds terminals are thought to generate around £700 million a year for the Exchequer from all associated taxes.
Also not surprisingly, the Association of British Bookmakers has lobbied the Government, claiming that if it acted to reduce dramatically the scale of stake permitted, this would ‘automatically put 40,000 jobs and 8,000 shops at risk’.
This has been believed: it seems the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition shares the view of its Labour predecessor that the proliferation of betting shops in the poorest parts of the country is helping local economies that are otherwise showing little or no signs of commercial growth.
There is another way of looking at it: that this is a metastasizing social cancer, a zero-sum game — or worse — of nihilistic anomie which may benefit the shareholders of firms such as Ladbrokes and William Hill but does nothing other than harm to the inner cities they claim to be supporting.
Booming
Besides, if less money (whether dole or earned) were to be funnelled into these ever-multiplying betting terminals, more would be spent on other goods and services: it wouldn’t just evaporate into outer space.
In fact, there are signs that politicians at constituency and local level are not buying the story that their voters should be grateful to the betting firms for their booming trade in electronically enhanced roulette.
Government action: Legislators and MPs should look again at the law that should reduce crime, not make it easy
Government action: Legislators and MPs should look again at the law that should reduce crime, not make it easy
Last week, the impressive MP for Chatham and Aylesford, Tracey Crouch, told the Commons of the ‘devastating impact that these high-risk, high-stake machines are having’; and Liverpool City Council called on the Government to allow it to limit the spread of fixed-odds terminals, which in 559 sites across that city last year took in £607 million — equivalent to £1,302 for every man, woman and child.
It warned that far from reviving Merseyside, this growing addiction was causing people to lose their jobs and their homes — and also to turn to crime to fund their habit.
And these calls came before the Guardian’s shocking report, which ended with the following quote from an unnamed betting shop manager in Greater Manchester: ‘You have people laundering money every day with cash from robberies and drugs. Staff know what pays their wages. They stay quiet.’
The rest of us should not do so, however. Above all we should remind legislators and the Government that the Gambling Act of 2005 stated one of its main objectives to be ‘preventing gambling from being a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime.’
It has failed.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2499071/Money-laundering-addiction...
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
By DOMINIC LAWSON
PUBLISHED: 01:27, 11 November 2013 | UPDATED: 01:32, 11 November 2013
When social historians assess the impact of the Blair administrations on the face of Britain they should examine the passing of the 2005 Gambling Act.
This was the legislation that allowed bookmaking firms to install so-called Fixed Odds Betting Terminals on any High Street in the land.
These machines are an electronically turbo-charged form of roulette, a game which hitherto had been restricted to membership-only casinos.
Crisis: I hadn't realised the fixed-odds terminals had become fabulously convenient for drug launderers
Crisis: I hadn't realised the fixed-odds terminals had become fabulously convenient for drug launderers
The fixed-odds terminals offer stakes of up to £100 per ‘spin’ at intervals of 20 seconds — roughly four times as rapid as traditional roulette.
There are now almost 35,000 such machines on our High Streets, with an overwhelming concentration in areas of high welfare dependency: following a parliamentary question, it was revealed that in one East London constituency alone in 2011, £243,270,300 had been staked in 164 high-stakes betting machines.
More...
Listen up, Britain! The people who get everything wrong say we can't leave the EU
Miliband targets payday loan firms that run cartoon-like adverts during children's programmes
City wants ban on 'crack cocaine' betting machines: Liverpool Council warns people are losing jobs and turning to loan sharks because they are addicted to games
They don’t have signs saying ‘benefit cheques welcome here’ — because they scarcely need to: it just happens anyway, and on a vast scale.
Crimes
I knew how this ‘crack-cocaine of gambling’ (as its opponents describe it) had been sucking funds from the families who could least afford it: the opposite of the old-style Mayfair casinos which specialised in recycling the inherited wealth of bored or degenerate aristocrats.
What I hadn’t realised was how the fixed-odds terminals had become a fabulously convenient way for drug dealers to launder the proceeds of their crimes.
I am wiser but angrier, having read last Saturday’s Guardian, which contained an outstanding investigation into this phenomenon.
Need for review: Campaign for Fairer Gambling has had no success fighting for legal framework to be re-examined
Need for review: Campaign for Fairer Gambling has had no success fighting for legal framework to be re-examined
The newspaper’s Randeep Ramesh had spoken to a number of drug dealers, who revealed how this gold mine for the leading bookmaking firms was also criminals’ preferred means of getting ‘hot’ money into their bank accounts via a third party — minus, of course, their losses on the terminals.
Because these terminals are now so widely spread, it is possible for the drug dealers to launder small amounts at each individual outlet, and thus help avoid suspicion.
The investigation quotes a drug dealer called James: ‘There are favoured bookies. Ladbrokes is useful because you can transfer winnings in a shop to an online gaming account. In William Hill’s you can ask for your winnings to be credited directly to your debit card.’ As Ramesh notes, the economics of drug dealing make it cost-effective to pay ‘losses’ to betting shops in order to launder the illicit profits.
Another dealer, Jake, tells the Guardian’s reporter: ‘Even if you are on jobseeker’s allowance you can borrow money from Speedy Cash. Take dole, turn it into weed, sell them [sic], take your profits and put them into the machines. If you win, you are quids in. If you lose, you get cash from the money shops to cover your losses.’
Historical move: Tony Blair's administration passed a law with clear loopholes
Jake, it seems, is one of those who has become addicted to the terminals — the wider social problem that would remain however vigilant the bookmakers are at identifying those using their fixed-odds terminals for illicit purposes.
In fact, this entire business is based on exploiting a legal loophole. As Matt Zarb-Cousin, of the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, explained it to me: ‘Bookmakers have a betting licence, and betting is a wager on an event that takes place outside the premises.
‘Gaming is a wager that takes place inside the premises, and only casinos had a licence for this. So what the bookmakers did to get around this was place the server which determined the result of each event . . . with a satellite system.’
Brilliant: the ‘event’ takes place not illicitly on a High Street in Liverpool or East London, but legally in space.
So far, the Campaign For Fairer Gambling has had no success in persuading the current government to re-examine the legal framework — for example by capping the fixed-odds terminals at £2 per spin, the level to which all other gaming machines are limited.
Last month, the Culture Secretary Maria Miller rejected calls to cut the maximum stake. It is not hard to understand the Government’s reluctance to put a brake on this tawdry trade: fixed-odds terminals are thought to generate around £700 million a year for the Exchequer from all associated taxes.
Also not surprisingly, the Association of British Bookmakers has lobbied the Government, claiming that if it acted to reduce dramatically the scale of stake permitted, this would ‘automatically put 40,000 jobs and 8,000 shops at risk’.
This has been believed: it seems the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition shares the view of its Labour predecessor that the proliferation of betting shops in the poorest parts of the country is helping local economies that are otherwise showing little or no signs of commercial growth.
There is another way of looking at it: that this is a metastasizing social cancer, a zero-sum game — or worse — of nihilistic anomie which may benefit the shareholders of firms such as Ladbrokes and William Hill but does nothing other than harm to the inner cities they claim to be supporting.
Booming
Besides, if less money (whether dole or earned) were to be funnelled into these ever-multiplying betting terminals, more would be spent on other goods and services: it wouldn’t just evaporate into outer space.
In fact, there are signs that politicians at constituency and local level are not buying the story that their voters should be grateful to the betting firms for their booming trade in electronically enhanced roulette.
Government action: Legislators and MPs should look again at the law that should reduce crime, not make it easy
Government action: Legislators and MPs should look again at the law that should reduce crime, not make it easy
Last week, the impressive MP for Chatham and Aylesford, Tracey Crouch, told the Commons of the ‘devastating impact that these high-risk, high-stake machines are having’; and Liverpool City Council called on the Government to allow it to limit the spread of fixed-odds terminals, which in 559 sites across that city last year took in £607 million — equivalent to £1,302 for every man, woman and child.
It warned that far from reviving Merseyside, this growing addiction was causing people to lose their jobs and their homes — and also to turn to crime to fund their habit.
And these calls came before the Guardian’s shocking report, which ended with the following quote from an unnamed betting shop manager in Greater Manchester: ‘You have people laundering money every day with cash from robberies and drugs. Staff know what pays their wages. They stay quiet.’
The rest of us should not do so, however. Above all we should remind legislators and the Government that the Gambling Act of 2005 stated one of its main objectives to be ‘preventing gambling from being a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime.’
It has failed.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2499071/Money-laundering-addiction...
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/gambling-machines-drug-money-laundering-bookies
The Guardian writer Randeep Ramesh asked if i could put a link on here so ......
The Guardian writer Randeep Ramesh asked if i could put a link on here so ......
Dont forget the £700 million going into the government coffers every year
For that reason alone nothing in legislation will change
For that reason alone nothing in legislation will change
does seem rather strange that as the powers that be clamp down on smoking & drinking the other big vice is degregulated to the point of insanity.
got to make up the lost taxes somewhere i guess and with gambling they don't have the very influential medical lobby bending their ears, yet.
got to make up the lost taxes somewhere i guess and with gambling they don't have the very influential medical lobby bending their ears, yet.
There was a report by the NHS a couple of years ago about increasing gambling addiction and FOBTs were identified as the major cause for this increase.Of course it was ignored.
We should perhaps recognise the distinction (a blurry one, sometimes, no doubt) between low-level dealers and other criminals: (a) money-laundering; and (b) pissing the takings up the wall.
In my admittedly limited experience of minor villains, they often don't seem to have much to show for it because of their easy-come, easy-go lifestyles, so I suspect a lot of (b) is involved.
In my admittedly limited experience of minor villains, they often don't seem to have much to show for it because of their easy-come, easy-go lifestyles, so I suspect a lot of (b) is involved.
HAving read this thread through it seems to me that racingstar must be mentally challenged if he thinks these machines are not used to launder money. And his sympathetic viewpoint on those sucked into the desperation of addiction would usually highlight a vile human being. I cannot believe anyone could hold those views. I'm alright Jack..eh?
As already stated on this thread,and other threads on the FOBT issue,I wonder why there is so much concern from the anti brigade.Why do they have such a bee in their bonnet ?
They don't interest me at all,but what does amaze me is all the theories and assumptions,like everybody is an expert.
Anyone that argues against this anti brigade gets either abuse,or being accused of being a bookmakers's lackey,or both.
It is as if they can't accept somebody having a different opinion.Very childish.
Remember that some of the people writing these articles,which then get cut and pasted,often admit they have never visited an LBO!I have seen people in high-up positions admit whilst on television that they have never been inside a LBO
Similarly when local councils want to blame drinking alcohol in the street onto the nearest LBO.Instead they should be asking why the police aren't doing what they are paid to do.In other words officials assume wrongly in many cases.
If a problem gambler is somebody that loses all their money in one,or several sessions,then that has been the case over the years.Now it has switched from greyhound racing,and horse racing to FOBT's,it's not new.
They don't interest me at all,but what does amaze me is all the theories and assumptions,like everybody is an expert.
Anyone that argues against this anti brigade gets either abuse,or being accused of being a bookmakers's lackey,or both.
It is as if they can't accept somebody having a different opinion.Very childish.
Remember that some of the people writing these articles,which then get cut and pasted,often admit they have never visited an LBO!I have seen people in high-up positions admit whilst on television that they have never been inside a LBO
Similarly when local councils want to blame drinking alcohol in the street onto the nearest LBO.Instead they should be asking why the police aren't doing what they are paid to do.In other words officials assume wrongly in many cases.
If a problem gambler is somebody that loses all their money in one,or several sessions,then that has been the case over the years.Now it has switched from greyhound racing,and horse racing to FOBT's,it's not new.
Bilbo,
I am a realist.
"Laundering" cash is not putting £25,000 in a FOBT and getting £24,500 out (losing 2% on Trading).
Even the Plod are bright enough to see through that "masterstroke".
There have always been addicts and always will be.
Do I lose any sleep over addicts.
Most certainly not.
You need to get a grip on reality if you think that makes me a "vile" person.
If you and this rabble want to get hot under the collar over FOBT's feel free to do so.
I do not go into Casinos but,I do not hear you bleaters screaming for them to be closed either.
Why is that.
I am a realist.
"Laundering" cash is not putting £25,000 in a FOBT and getting £24,500 out (losing 2% on Trading).
Even the Plod are bright enough to see through that "masterstroke".
There have always been addicts and always will be.
Do I lose any sleep over addicts.
Most certainly not.
You need to get a grip on reality if you think that makes me a "vile" person.
If you and this rabble want to get hot under the collar over FOBT's feel free to do so.
I do not go into Casinos but,I do not hear you bleaters screaming for them to be closed either.
Why is that.
unbiased ,you dont need to be an expert to see that fobts are a highly addictive form of gambling .
I couldn't care less if they're used for money laundering or not.
no doubt that people can't seem to stop shovelling their money in them though,they seem to find it hard to walk away,its always just one more spin
no doubt that people can't seem to stop shovelling their money in them though,they seem to find it hard to walk away,its always just one more spin
Proof of the abuse lies in the bilbo response.Uncalled for,as this is an anonmymous forum,and because a poster isn't overly concerned about gamblers,then they are supposedly lowlife!
There are so many more important issues to care about.
It is unbelievable that these threads are on a gambling forum.Like some gambling is acceptable,because those posters say so,and other forms aren't,because they say so.
There are so many more important issues to care about.
It is unbelievable that these threads are on a gambling forum.Like some gambling is acceptable,because those posters say so,and other forms aren't,because they say so.
unbiased , you're living in a fantasy world if you think everything under one banner is equal , ie gambling .
All forms of gambling quickly expose "weaknesses" in certain individuals.
Perhaps we should ban everything that leads to many becoming addicts or,perhaps we should let people take responsibility for their actions?
Perhaps we should ban everything that leads to many becoming addicts or,perhaps we should let people take responsibility for their actions?
What is equal about it,is the FACT that that all gambling is voluntary.So punters do have a choice as to where they want to place their money,and it is up to them.
All gambling works to a percentage,and before being shouted down,the percentage on roulette isn't as high,as say football used to be.10% on football matches that only had 3 possible outcomes,home ,draw,away.So if it isn't value you don't play.
Getting even money on a colour certainly isn't a rip-off.So the spins are fast,so what.The majority of gamblers lose in the long run,whether on horses,dogs,sports,machines,whatever.That is their choice.
I care about people that get stricken by illness,accidents,bereavements, general ill-fortune,but not gamblers.They have chosen their path.
All gambling works to a percentage,and before being shouted down,the percentage on roulette isn't as high,as say football used to be.10% on football matches that only had 3 possible outcomes,home ,draw,away.So if it isn't value you don't play.
Getting even money on a colour certainly isn't a rip-off.So the spins are fast,so what.The majority of gamblers lose in the long run,whether on horses,dogs,sports,machines,whatever.That is their choice.
I care about people that get stricken by illness,accidents,bereavements, general ill-fortune,but not gamblers.They have chosen their path.
agree racingstar , some do it quicker and are more addictive than others though and create a chase mentality far quicker than others .
lottery v fobt as an example
1 is twice a week the other is every 20 seconds
lottery v fobt as an example
1 is twice a week the other is every 20 seconds
I don't know if these are the latest set of regs but here's a link if anyhones interested ...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2157/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2157/contents/made
this govt aint going to ban FOBTS, neither will Labour.
Over the years I have noticed,that plenty of Bookmakers have been found guilty of Laundering money,so what is their incentive(could it be greed?) the scale of the laundering must have bee vast, those wealthy bookies from a time past, were heavily involved me thinks,and the subjecy barely touched upon.
Item on this P6 RP.
Interesting use of words , Vennix "said" badblokes spokesman "added" but the former member of the security team only "claimed".
Telling difference .
Interesting use of words , Vennix "said" badblokes spokesman "added" but the former member of the security team only "claimed".
Telling difference .
all forms of gambling may indeed expose weaknesses in certain individuals, but these machines have exposed a massive section of the potentially vulnerable to the misery of addiction, who would never have visited a casino. They have made it far too easy for anyone with a weakness to fall into the trap. There are not upwards of three casinos on every british high street, as there are "bookmakers", with four of these monstrositys in each.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539