Forums
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
adge
16 Oct 13 10:55
Joined:
Date Joined: 14 Aug 02
| Topic/replies: 7,462 | Blogger: adge's blog
two different bookmaking racecourse firms linking together their computers to share business is illegal and in the category of price fixing.
be warned
Pause Switch to Standard View bookmaker pitch linking
Show More
Loading...
Report adge October 16, 2013 10:59 AM BST
according to legal advice..expect letters in the post
Report ribero1 October 16, 2013 11:03 AM BST
Interesting Adge,can take it or leave it myself.
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 11:11 AM BST
LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 11:18 AM BST
good morning facts sorry to see you are giving your royal ascot pitch away at that price.
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 11:21 AM BST
ONLY TO BUY UP MY FRIENDHappy
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 11:26 AM BST
that's good to hear Happy
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 11:31 AM BST
WILL PROBABLY GET ONE IN THE LATE THIRTIES AND THEN LINK IT UP WITH THE TASH WITH THE CASHHappy
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 11:32 AM BST
that's illigal
Report wasnot October 16, 2013 11:34 AM BST
Pitch linking also breaches the terms of the contracts you have signed btw.
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 11:35 AM BST
AND ON THE WAY DOWN I WILL DRIVE AT A CONSTANT 90MPHHappy
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 11:52 AM BST
The suggestions that linking is illegal or breaches the terms of the 2012 licences can only be based on opinion at present as the issues involved have not been tested at law. No doubt they will be before the matter is finally resolved.
Report unbiased October 16, 2013 1:01 PM BST
Yet another reason why the SP system is outdated and not a good marker.
Report democrat October 16, 2013 1:05 PM BST
Not many different firms are linking as far as I know but there certainly have been instances at Yarmouth and Newmarket this season. If your original statement is true adge how will the prohibition of this practice be enforced ?
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 1:37 PM BST
democrat

its a much bigger problem in the north,west country catching the north up.
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 1:40 PM BST
jimnast

define "problem" in this context
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 1:48 PM BST
bant

how do you mean ?
Report democrat October 16, 2013 1:48 PM BST
Does he have to bant ? Is it not self explanatory ?
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 2:40 PM BST
why, how and to whom is it a "problem"?
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 2:51 PM BST
why = some who link up with others are only doing so as they cannot make it pay by betting on there own as its just a 2nd income to them,how = therefore there would be less books in the ring making it better for those full time bookmakers .whom = most other bookmakers.

we had a situation recently when the brm stood in front of a bookmakers joint at pitching up time called his name 3 times the bookmaker didn't even know whos name he was betting in.
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 2:57 PM BST
LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughU COULDNT WRITE IT!
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 3:05 PM BST
So linking creates pressures of a competitive nature which every other industry and economic sector have to face up to all the time, but on-course bookmakers should be entitled to be immune to the freedoms, innovations and progressiveness which are normally the lifeblood of successful entrepreneurship?
Report jimnast October 16, 2013 3:10 PM BST
to many big words for me there pal.
Report THE-GHOST-OF-DICKIE-BIRD October 16, 2013 3:19 PM BST
ME AND JONNY W ARE GOING TO JOIN THE MONEY FOR OLD ROPERS NEXT YEAR, IVE BOUGHT A HUGE SATCHEL TO STORE THE WONGACool
Report tinkler October 16, 2013 4:26 PM BST
Don't agree with it ,due to reduced competition and potential for price fixing ( possible oligopoly market as with Petrol companies).
Thers got to be some regulation Bant otherwise the bigger firms will mop up everything and do as they please.
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 4:43 PM BST
The existence of the exchanges has already reduced the pricing range (and price based competition) to an extent even narrower than that of the fuel industry. Also, it could be argued that linking actually keeps money off the exchange and in the ring. I also suspect that the longer term effect of the 2012 contracts and the increased costs arising will in any case eventually lead to a contraction of the industry into the hands of the bigger firms.

I just cannot get my head around the "price fixing" argument. How do two, three or even four linked pitches create a cartel with so many other operators all around?
Report tinkler October 16, 2013 6:00 PM BST
They don't, but if it spreads thats were the problem lies.
The "price fixing " stuff from the bookies on here is just for their own benefit, but
if it reduces competition then it can only make the on course market even worse than it already is, and offer punters even worse value.
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 6:39 PM BST
I suspect that the limits on the reliability of the technology and the preference for the retention of their independence by the majority of operators will protect against the excessive erosion of competition, although this could be where the use of some limiting regulation could protect against the excesses that theoretically could develop in terms of linking, without the need to try and ban it per se.
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 7:20 PM BST
ENGLISH ONLY PLEASE?????
Report ribero1 October 16, 2013 7:20 PM BST
Who do you link with bant?
Report argosy October 16, 2013 7:52 PM BST
bant links with the English Dictionery
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 8:00 PM BST
sorry. I thought the forum was a medium for sensible discourse. my mistake.
Report argosy October 16, 2013 8:06 PM BST
only a joke - sorry!
Report factmachine October 16, 2013 8:11 PM BST
BANT,"IT COULD BE ARGUED THAT LINKING ACTUALLY KEEPS MONEY IN THE RING" PLEASE EXPLAINConfused
Report adge October 16, 2013 8:12 PM BST
to clarity , this is following concerns by racecourses.
legal opinion was sought by racecourse associations [ and has come back crystal clear ] , the bookmaker associations have not paid for any legal advice.
Report 545APG October 16, 2013 8:22 PM BST
Concerns from racecourses sounds like a load of twaddle
Report Racecourse Regular October 16, 2013 8:33 PM BST
if cartels  are happening on racecourse premises you would think they would be first in line if any questions asked.......
Report adge October 16, 2013 8:49 PM BST
the legal opinion was sought and presumably paid for by jockey club racecourses , APG
Report swift-tuttle October 16, 2013 8:51 PM BST
cartels in the ring?
the only interpretation of this is that the same sub-standard prices are offered by all operators
well, if that is the case, it comes down to the nous of the punter - he doesn't have to take those prices.

But surely this is the very reason why the ring should not be regulated at all. Independent free-thinking bookies will want to break the cartel if one exists by offering better prices to get the business
Report 545APG October 16, 2013 8:54 PM BST
Cartel could be misconstrued for RRP - recommended retail percentage
Or betting to good figures which most bookies have no idea how to do
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 8:57 PM BST
factmachine: linking creates better books, better books means less need for hedging, less hedging means less use of exchanges. I know it is probably an over-simplification but its a start.

adge: legal "opinion" is never crystal clear and certainly does not determine matters. Only judgments by the Court with the highest jurisdiction on the matter concerned offer such clarity.

545APG: Spot on. someone else's hand is behind this!!
Report mugbookie October 16, 2013 8:59 PM BST
545APG - ON THE 'GOOD FIGURES' THEME....HOW MANY PREVIOUSLY VERY WORKABLE SILVER RINGS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED BY RAILS/TATTS LINK UP MERCHANTS ?
Report 545APG October 16, 2013 9:02 PM BST
All this linked up bookies being the reason for the demise of the oncourse game is all smoke and mirrors

I regularly see on my best odds available silver ring bookies who are top price every horse

How they turn that into a profit I simply don't know
Report tinkler October 16, 2013 9:04 PM BST
Racecourses don't need bookies anymore and seem to be moving away from having them ( wi fi) so why would they be concerned?
Report adge October 16, 2013 9:04 PM BST
and that doen't even include jack wilson
Report intheknow October 16, 2013 9:10 PM BST
Racecourses don't need bookies? Take them away & watch the closures one by one
Report tinkler October 16, 2013 9:15 PM BST
Punters will just re adjust ,use their mobiles and  the Tote or bet off course pre- racing.
No on course bookies in other countries and they thrive.
Report intheknow October 16, 2013 9:18 PM BST
UK punters love bookmakers as being part of the day's racing.

Any racecourse management wanting to get rid would be committing hari-kari with their core business
Report democrat October 16, 2013 9:21 PM BST
How was your beloved Wetherby adge ?
Report adge October 16, 2013 9:32 PM BST
wet
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 9:44 PM BST
This all started with adge alerting us to the fact that the Racecourses had received legal advice that linking between different firms was illegal. For what it is worth, I can now confirm that over the last few weeks I have been receiving legal opinion which clearly contradicts their advice. I will now try and instigate some form of consultation on the differing interpretation of the law in order to avoid the need for confrontation in a court of law. In other words, I am attempting to progress a commercial dispute in the manner normally adopted in the business world.
Report democrat October 16, 2013 9:57 PM BST
Who is financing your laudable investigation into this matter bant ?
Report mugbookie October 16, 2013 10:10 PM BST
BANT53 - IT SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT THE DIFFERING AGENDAS INDIVIDUAL BOOKMAKERS HAVE WHEN YOU APPEAR QUITE PREPARED TO PICK A LEGAL FIGHT WITH RACECOURSES ON THE ISSUE OF BEING ABLE TO LINK WITH OTHER BOOKMAKERS.LOVE THEM OR LOATHE THEM WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THE RACECOURSES TO ACHIEVE THE BEST OUTCOME FOR ALL CONCERNED,AND SEEKING A POTENTIAL LEGAL FIGHT ON SUCH A MINOR ISSUE IS, UNCONSTRUCTIVE AT BEST. I TRUST THAT ANY ASSOCIATION CONSIDERING AIDING YOU IN SUCH ACTION WILL SEEK A MANDATE FROM IT'S MEMBERSHIP BEFORE GOING DOWN SUCH AN ILL THOUGHT OUT PATH.
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 10:26 PM BST
mugbookie - I have a commercial contract with the Racecourses and am subject to an Act of Parliament, The Gambling Act 2005. If I believe that an issue (which with respect is not minor in my view) is going to be detrimental to my business, then I have every right to investigate the legality of any proposed action by other parties who are similarly committed to the said contract and Act. I will proceed to exercise this right to whatever extent I feel appropriate and certainly without seeking financial assistance from any of the trade associations, who I recognize represent conflicting interests. Differing agendas are what make the world go around and left us with the flawed infrastructure post-1st September 2012, init!!!!!

democrat- mind your own business (or see above)
Report democrat October 16, 2013 10:31 PM BST
Thanks for the direct answer bant. In the absence of anything to the contrary I'll assume your efforts are being self funded, in which case your actions are your personal prerogative.
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 10:49 PM BST
One final point before I go to bed, regarding our trade associations. Does anybody know whether there is any truth in the rumour that the Racecourse's consideration of this issue, and indeed possibly their legal advice, emanated from promptings by one of our own associations which appears to have ignored the conflicting interest concerns which I have previously referred to?
Report mugbookie October 16, 2013 10:58 PM BST
BANT53 - YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A WELL EDUCATED INDIVIDUAL, ON THAT BASIS, WHY DO YOU HAVE THE NEED TO LINK WITH OTHER BOOKMAKERS TO RUN A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS ? SURELY YOU CAN OPERATE ONE PITCH IN A PROFITABLE WAY ? AND IF YOU FEEL THAT ONE PITCH IS NOT SUFFICIENT, WHY NOT DO WHAT MANY OTHERS DO AND PURCHASE MULTIPLE PICKS RATHER THAN SHARE ? I AGREE THAT THE CONTRACTS ARE MULTI FLAWED WHERE THE INTERESTS OF ON COURSE BOOKMAKERS ARE CONCERNED, THATS WHY I FEEL THAT YOU ARE MAKING A MAJOR MISTAKE SEEKING A DIFFERENT OUTCOME THROUGH LEGAL MEANS ON AN ISSUE THAT IN THE GREATER SCHEME OF THINGS IS MOST DEFINITELY OF LIMITED IMPORTANCE AND HAS READY SOLUTIONS.
Report bant53 October 16, 2013 11:12 PM BST
mugbookie - well educated or not, we will have to agree to disagree as our respective opinions on business economics, modeling and conduct, and the rights of individuals to rely on the rule of law and the protection of commercial interests, are so fundamentally in opposition. Goodnight and good luck.
Report democrat October 16, 2013 11:15 PM BST
Good debate chaps. Trust adge - as usual he seems to have lit the blue touch paper in this matter and stood back !!!!!
Report mugbookie October 16, 2013 11:18 PM BST
BANT53 - GOOD LUCK ON THE BOOKMAKING FRONT...OF COURSE...IN YOUR OTHER ENDEAVOUR....WELL...WE'LL JUST HAVE TO DISAGREE I'M AFRAID...GOODNIGHT
Report adge October 16, 2013 11:45 PM BST
just passing on some updated news , democrat. I have very little personal involvement or interest in the pitch linking issue.
as regards the bant53 point as to why JCR should seek legal advise , i'm also not much help either.
I do know that our association have been ruffling a few feathers with the Birmingham freeloaders to get firm guidelines in place regarding pitch renting and this could have developed as a spin off from that .
contrary to what many believe we are trying hard to work closely with racecourses with a good degree of success.
please try to attend racecourse open meetings where you net too , particularly the Cheltenham one
Report steinbeck October 17, 2013 12:39 AM BST
If a ban was put on the linking of pitches by racecourses,would that also include Bookmakers linking to Betfair and **** from their racecourse pitches.
Report jimnast October 17, 2013 8:50 AM BST
tinkler

so you would be happy to go to chester,bangor or ripon and bet with the racecourses ?

just think how much worse they would be without racecourse bookmakers !
Report adge October 17, 2013 8:50 AM BST
only the linking of pitches with different owners [ not the same firm linking ], Steinbeck.
it would be good if they banned exchange use but that is not illegal so won't happen.
as I've said pitch linking following legal advise says it is seen as a form of price fixing
Report ribero1 October 17, 2013 9:04 AM BST
We can but dream Steinbeck.
Report bant53 October 17, 2013 9:27 AM BST
Price fixing is an agreement between participants in a market to sell only at a fixed price or maintain market conditions so as to fix prices at a level that is detrimental to the customer. Neither, nor any of the other ingredients to the process when illegal, could faintly be attributed to trading conditions in the betting rings (other than possibly in the very small new betting areas which in fact have been facilitated by the racecourses themselves!!). Even less so when, as the technology allows, each pitch is set up to set it's own prices.
Report 2honest4ere October 17, 2013 9:29 AM BST
Steinbeck

have a thought for your fellow bookmakers if exchanges were banned on course, just think how their expenses would rise !
1 member of staff to get the prices
1 or maybe 2 members of staff running around hedging the bet csand
1 member of staff on computer.
surprised racecourses don't try to ban exchange use by bookmakers just think of
their increase in income through admission charges
Report ribero1 October 17, 2013 9:38 AM BST
I said that a long time ago re racecourse attendance and workmen but no doubt they won't give a flying about it.
The racecourse workman is virtually extinct,only a question of time before an automated hand (adorned with a BF glove) accepts the punters money.
Report intheknow October 17, 2013 9:40 AM BST
automated BF gloved hand Laugh love it!

Some might say that they are already in use out there . . .

See you in a couple of hours
Report factmachine October 17, 2013 9:41 AM BST
"LaughLaughLaughONLY A MATTER OF TIME" TRY 90% OF THE RING!
Report factmachine October 17, 2013 9:43 AM BST
TODAYS UTTOX SPREAD ON EXCHANGE UMBRELLAS 9/12 OUT OF 19 BOOKSCryCry
Report ribero1 October 17, 2013 9:46 AM BST
Day off for me itk,the lads are going.
Report ribero1 October 17, 2013 9:49 AM BST
Need to save my strength for the Redcar marathon tomorrow.
Report johnnywilkinson October 17, 2013 10:10 AM BST
democrat 23.15....its education
Report adge October 17, 2013 1:08 PM BST
I've been doing a little more research , maybe I shouldn't be allowed days off !!
as regards the associations being involved. it seems to be FAR WORSE than that..the FRB [ them again ] have apparently pledged to match half of any legal costs if they are required. the associations have not , as yet , made any objection to this , in fact probably support it.
the worry of the "price fixing" angle is that if bookmakers are within the sample and are being linked , they could produce false shows which leads to false sp's.
having a good idea who you are bant53 , I understand how you are aggrieved by that situation when your position has no bearing on it.
Report AndersLassen October 17, 2013 2:00 PM BST
Alan, are you pulling our collective plonker on this one?

the worry of the "price fixing" angle is that if bookmakers are within the sample and are being linked , they could produce false shows which leads to false sp's.

1. Course bookmaker's shows are virtually the same throughout the ring as they are almost exclusively exchange driven.
2. SP reporters have been bending up the shows and SP returns for years.. ask anyone who's had shops (I've had plenty.)The shows as they appear in the shops bear very little resemblance to what is available on course.
3. What makes you think that linked pitches automatically display the same prices? I link quite a lot.. and I can assure you that most of the time each pitch displays it's own prices.

I will accept a pint of Black Sheep special as compo for the time it has taken me to point this out!
Report adge October 17, 2013 2:09 PM BST
not my views , anders , I wouldn't dare say things like that. how could I.
I am ready for that pint , though !
Report AndersLassen October 17, 2013 2:13 PM BST
Happy

Found myself in the Old Bell on tuesday night.. polished off 5 halves of Erdinger Octoberfest Special.It was like nectar. And all the more special due to the unexpected spur of the moment nature of the visit!
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.

Wonder

Instance ID: 13539
www.betfair.com