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rember Sibton Abbey winning the Henessy
from Jodami from about 22lb out of h'cap.
from Jodami from about 22lb out of h'cap.
well done to them for the 4th place prize money
was worth turning up
was worth turning up
you'll be able to start a thread soon rcing asking is it a record to go up 30lbs for finishing 4th
although the derby is not a handicap, many horses that have run in it would've been upwards of 50lb wrong with the winner 
delta
I once part owned a horse that ran from 47lbs out of the handicap at the Cheltenham festival.
We were only beaten 44 lengths - moral victors in my book but we didn't get paid
We were only beaten 44 lengths - moral victors in my book but we didn't get paid
Astral Charmer was a very long way out of the handicap when it won the Scottish National at 66/1.
I believe the most 'out of the handicap' winner was See Enough, who was a 100/1 winner of the Rendlesham Hurdle when it was run as a limited handicap at Kempton.
He carried the minimum permitted weight of 10st 7lbs and was officially 38lbs out of the handicap.
He reappeared a week later under a penalty but off his correct weight in a handicap hurdle at Newbury, started 11/4 fav, and confirmd his win was a fluke by pulling up in the back straight.
The handicapper put him up 31lbs for his win and he never won another race.
He carried the minimum permitted weight of 10st 7lbs and was officially 38lbs out of the handicap.
He reappeared a week later under a penalty but off his correct weight in a handicap hurdle at Newbury, started 11/4 fav, and confirmd his win was a fluke by pulling up in the back straight.
The handicapper put him up 31lbs for his win and he never won another race.
Quixall Crossett was 83lb ow for the Edward Hanmer at Haydock in '96. he finished 4th, and 'jumped well'.
4 ran
4 ran
Astral Charmer was a very long way out of the handicap when it won the Scottish National at 66/1.
Didn't that bolt before the start as well?
Didn't that bolt before the start as well?
Slippy,I was there that day.I don't recall him bolting but he was given a very long uncontested lead throughout.
I was also there when Sibton Abbey won the Hennessy.There was no way that I could have Jodami for the Gold Cup when he couldn't win the Hennessy under 10.03.
thanks for all the replies
Quixall Crossett was 83lb ow
how did that work ?
would they not have been allowed to enter the race ?
Quixall Crossett was 83lb ow
how did that work ?
would they not have been allowed to enter the race ?
Daphnis was 80lb oh in Kelso's Morebattle Hurdle won by Large Action in '95. Norman Williamson had the pleasure of riding it.
....and I think Woodlands Genhire can 'beat' See Enough....
He won from 40 lb oh at 100/1 at Taunton in Jan '97.
...though it was the "Stephen Little And Dick Reynolds Bookmakers Handicap Chase". so perhaps the fix was in!
He won from 40 lb oh at 100/1 at Taunton in Jan '97.
...though it was the "Stephen Little And Dick Reynolds Bookmakers Handicap Chase". so perhaps the fix was in!
ran well there....
got a small race in, perhaps Fakenham!
got a small race in, perhaps Fakenham!
my eyes were on the winner delta , did it get beat by much ?
in the end far enuff
but went like the clappers and chance [ish] turning in - was dropped for last run now on OR50
but went like the clappers and chance [ish] turning in - was dropped for last run now on OR50
Pos Dist Horse Trainer Age Weight Jockey SP
1st 4 Molko Jack (FR) M Mullineaux 9 10-9 Kielan Woods (3) 3/1
2nd ¾ 2 Turf Trivia G M Moore 6 11-11 b F Keniry 4/1
3rd 10 1 Nicks Power (IRE) R Dickin 7 11-12 C Poste 5/4f
4th 1¼ 5 Radsoc De Sivola (FR) J R Cornwall 8 10-0 Joseph Cornwall (5) 16/1
prize money again!
1st 4 Molko Jack (FR) M Mullineaux 9 10-9 Kielan Woods (3) 3/1
2nd ¾ 2 Turf Trivia G M Moore 6 11-11 b F Keniry 4/1
3rd 10 1 Nicks Power (IRE) R Dickin 7 11-12 C Poste 5/4f
4th 1¼ 5 Radsoc De Sivola (FR) J R Cornwall 8 10-0 Joseph Cornwall (5) 16/1
prize money again!
doesn't fat ann usually put up about 50lb overweight most times she rides one of her own.
Didn't a horse called Martinstown win at Cheltenham one day from 89 lbs out of h/cap
I have a vague recollection of a 2M front-running chaser called Somerled (think he sported red colours) winning from around 35lb out of the handicap (possibly at Catterick or Doncaster) in the mid 80's - I'll need Onlooker's assistance to confirm that.
Very well remembered - Navel-Gaver
---------
SOMERLED - WON the Sheilas Cottage Chase - a Limited Handicap (bottom-weight 10st 7lbs) - from 28 lbs 'out of the handicap' - at DONCASTER on Saturday Dec 14th 1985.
Somerled won by 20 lengths, too.... and at 33/1
SOMERLED won off a rating of 59 - BUT - in those days, the OFFICIAL SCALE for Jumps was, ALSO, 0-100 - as opposed to the present 0 (but, IN HANDICAOS, effectively a minimum of no less than around 60) to 175 (and then upwards for a very few top horses, like Kauto Star, Denman, et al .... so that 59would equate to 134, nowadays - with SOMERLED's true OFFICIAL Rating going INTO the race being an equivalent 106.
Much of the field were 'oh' aswell - due to the 3rd placed top weight being Kathies Lad on 12st - with runner-up Itsgottobealright 4 lbs 'oh'
4th was Ryeman on 10-11 - 5th Kevinsfort '5 oh' - Rentaghost raced of 10-8.
Other 'oh' runners were ...
Sir Badsworth '24' - Lefrak City '6' - Walnut Wonder '17' - and Straight Down '35 oh'
Two outings EARLIER = SOMERLED had also won from 'out of the handicap' - at KELSO - this time by just 10 lbs.
It was a 3-runner race - and Somerled won by 'A Distance'and 30 lengths - off an Official Rating that equated to 106.
The race before that - SOMERLED had won another 3-runner Handicap - at Perth - by 20 lengths and 30 lengths - of an Official Rating the equivalent of 102
Christopher Mordaunt was a very conservative OFFICIAL Steeplechase HANDICAPPER.
After winning at DONCASTER - from '28 oh'....
SOMERLED went on to to carry an 8lb Penalty at Haydock - in the Gamekeeper's Handicap Chase - but Fell, at 8/13 Fav - thus running off 2lbs LESS that at Doncaster ... this being because - in those days the 'Entry System' was 16 to 21 days in Advance of the race - (unlike today's 6/5 day Entry System) - so the 8 lb Penalty, at Haydock, was on top of being raised for previous Perth and Kelso exploits - and NOT (yet) Doncaster.
The Handicap game really was great in those days.
After Haydock - SOMERLED started at just 28/1 for the Queen Mother Champion Chase - and, after leading, Fell, 3 fences from home.
Somerled had won twice at CATTERICK in 1984/85 - but had started 1985/86 rated just 17 = equivalent 92
---------
SOMERLED - WON the Sheilas Cottage Chase - a Limited Handicap (bottom-weight 10st 7lbs) - from 28 lbs 'out of the handicap' - at DONCASTER on Saturday Dec 14th 1985.
Somerled won by 20 lengths, too.... and at 33/1
SOMERLED won off a rating of 59 - BUT - in those days, the OFFICIAL SCALE for Jumps was, ALSO, 0-100 - as opposed to the present 0 (but, IN HANDICAOS, effectively a minimum of no less than around 60) to 175 (and then upwards for a very few top horses, like Kauto Star, Denman, et al .... so that 59would equate to 134, nowadays - with SOMERLED's true OFFICIAL Rating going INTO the race being an equivalent 106.
Much of the field were 'oh' aswell - due to the 3rd placed top weight being Kathies Lad on 12st - with runner-up Itsgottobealright 4 lbs 'oh'
4th was Ryeman on 10-11 - 5th Kevinsfort '5 oh' - Rentaghost raced of 10-8.
Other 'oh' runners were ...
Sir Badsworth '24' - Lefrak City '6' - Walnut Wonder '17' - and Straight Down '35 oh'
Two outings EARLIER = SOMERLED had also won from 'out of the handicap' - at KELSO - this time by just 10 lbs.
It was a 3-runner race - and Somerled won by 'A Distance'and 30 lengths - off an Official Rating that equated to 106.
The race before that - SOMERLED had won another 3-runner Handicap - at Perth - by 20 lengths and 30 lengths - of an Official Rating the equivalent of 102
Christopher Mordaunt was a very conservative OFFICIAL Steeplechase HANDICAPPER.
After winning at DONCASTER - from '28 oh'....
SOMERLED went on to to carry an 8lb Penalty at Haydock - in the Gamekeeper's Handicap Chase - but Fell, at 8/13 Fav - thus running off 2lbs LESS that at Doncaster ... this being because - in those days the 'Entry System' was 16 to 21 days in Advance of the race - (unlike today's 6/5 day Entry System) - so the 8 lb Penalty, at Haydock, was on top of being raised for previous Perth and Kelso exploits - and NOT (yet) Doncaster.
The Handicap game really was great in those days.
After Haydock - SOMERLED started at just 28/1 for the Queen Mother Champion Chase - and, after leading, Fell, 3 fences from home.
Somerled had won twice at CATTERICK in 1984/85 - but had started 1985/86 rated just 17 = equivalent 92
Amazing stuff there, onlooker. I had completely forgot how different the handicapping system was then.
Thanks Onlooker for that in-depth response...it brings back some vague memories.
I was surprised to see it was only 28lbs (not 35 as I thought) but as Somerled bolted up, I remember wondering whether I'd EVER seen a horse so far ahead of the handicapper.
Two stone out of the handicap and still winning by 20 lengths!
To subsequently start at just 28/1 in a QM Champion Chase (I'm guessing against Pearlyman & Desert Orchid) emphasises just how badly the handicapper misjudged him.
I was surprised to see it was only 28lbs (not 35 as I thought) but as Somerled bolted up, I remember wondering whether I'd EVER seen a horse so far ahead of the handicapper.
Two stone out of the handicap and still winning by 20 lengths!
To subsequently start at just 28/1 in a QM Champion Chase (I'm guessing against Pearlyman & Desert Orchid) emphasises just how badly the handicapper misjudged him.
motley01 24 Oct 13 20:30
Didn't a horse called Martinstown win at Cheltenham one day from 89 lbs out of h/cap
----------
I have found your MARTINSTOWN.
This is the earlier Martinstown - foaled 1971 - NOT the later one, which is on RacingPost.com.
The race was New Year's Day 1981.
CHELTENHAM - Soft
2-25 Bass Handicap Chase - 4 miles
1. MARTINSTOWN - 9-11-3*7(24ow) Mr M Batters
(led 5th to 7th, led 24th, all out)
2. Midday Welcome - 10-10-4*4 Ben de Haan
(hdway 3 out, every chance flat, ran on)
3. Sparkie's Choice - 8-11-7 Chris Hawkins
(held up, every chance last, not quicken)
7 ran
Dist: Head, length and half, 2 and half
SP: 16/1, 12/1, 15/8 Fav
Trainer: Mrs M Easton - Cranborne, Dorset
Owner: Mrs M Easton
Breeder: Mrs M Easton
Time: 9m 44.40s (slow by 1m 30.4s)
Although the Going was given as Soft - it must have been pretty desperate - as ...
The two 2m Novice Hurdles were 32 and 33 secs Slow
The 2m Handicap Chase was 24 secs Slow
The 2m 4f Novices Chase was 38 secs Slow
The race before Martinstown's race - was a 2m Panama Cigar Hurdle (Qualifier) - Won by COMBS DITCH - ridden by Steve Jobar - at 9/2, by 6 lengths, from Pay Freeze - ridden by (Steve) S C Knight - 6 ran
The race was 50 secs Slow.
As regards by how much MARTINSTOWN was 'out of the handicap' ... I do not know - as ...
OFFICIAL RATINGS for National Hunt were not published at that time.
- and, sadly, the FORM BOOK does NOT show any 'oh' - as subsequently - so, without having that day's Newspaper, with a card showing 'oh' - underneath - IF they DID do then - there is no way of knowing.
*note to ged - 'Not available' on Glasgow Herald Archive.
The only other shot is - IF reference were made to ANY 'oh' in Chasers & Hurdlers 1980/81 - if anybody has a copy to hand .... Mine are currently 'boxed up' in the loft.
Didn't a horse called Martinstown win at Cheltenham one day from 89 lbs out of h/cap
----------
I have found your MARTINSTOWN.
This is the earlier Martinstown - foaled 1971 - NOT the later one, which is on RacingPost.com.
The race was New Year's Day 1981.
CHELTENHAM - Soft
2-25 Bass Handicap Chase - 4 miles
1. MARTINSTOWN - 9-11-3*7(24ow) Mr M Batters
(led 5th to 7th, led 24th, all out)
2. Midday Welcome - 10-10-4*4 Ben de Haan
(hdway 3 out, every chance flat, ran on)
3. Sparkie's Choice - 8-11-7 Chris Hawkins
(held up, every chance last, not quicken)
7 ran
Dist: Head, length and half, 2 and half
SP: 16/1, 12/1, 15/8 Fav
Trainer: Mrs M Easton - Cranborne, Dorset
Owner: Mrs M Easton
Breeder: Mrs M Easton
Time: 9m 44.40s (slow by 1m 30.4s)
Although the Going was given as Soft - it must have been pretty desperate - as ...
The two 2m Novice Hurdles were 32 and 33 secs Slow
The 2m Handicap Chase was 24 secs Slow
The 2m 4f Novices Chase was 38 secs Slow
The race before Martinstown's race - was a 2m Panama Cigar Hurdle (Qualifier) - Won by COMBS DITCH - ridden by Steve Jobar - at 9/2, by 6 lengths, from Pay Freeze - ridden by (Steve) S C Knight - 6 ran
The race was 50 secs Slow.
As regards by how much MARTINSTOWN was 'out of the handicap' ... I do not know - as ...
OFFICIAL RATINGS for National Hunt were not published at that time.
- and, sadly, the FORM BOOK does NOT show any 'oh' - as subsequently - so, without having that day's Newspaper, with a card showing 'oh' - underneath - IF they DID do then - there is no way of knowing.
*note to ged - 'Not available' on Glasgow Herald Archive.
The only other shot is - IF reference were made to ANY 'oh' in Chasers & Hurdlers 1980/81 - if anybody has a copy to hand .... Mine are currently 'boxed up' in the loft.
Noted, onlooker.
You might be able to get a fair idea from his previous race? - I believe he finished 2nd in it.
Mr Batters was not meant to ride it. Mrs Easton declared him in error. He drove the box, and was the barman at her pub, and had to borrow riding gear, including helmet from Colin Tinkler, who had expected to be riding it, and had wasted to get down to 10-0. He also rode the horse in that year's Grand National (Aldaniti's). The horse was by Spartan General, as was that year's 2nd, Spartan Missile.
It seems Ben de Haan, who was 2nd in that much missed New Years Day 4-miler, also had an up-and-down day.
You might be able to get a fair idea from his previous race? - I believe he finished 2nd in it.
Mr Batters was not meant to ride it. Mrs Easton declared him in error. He drove the box, and was the barman at her pub, and had to borrow riding gear, including helmet from Colin Tinkler, who had expected to be riding it, and had wasted to get down to 10-0. He also rode the horse in that year's Grand National (Aldaniti's). The horse was by Spartan General, as was that year's 2nd, Spartan Missile.
It seems Ben de Haan, who was 2nd in that much missed New Years Day 4-miler, also had an up-and-down day.
...though actually the race for the day is in the Glasgow Herald of Dec 31 (as "Cheltenham Ne'erday Card"!). Not that it's any use, as it doesn't show long handicap weights. His form figs coming into it were 412002, implying all runs that season.
...but he was the highest of those on 10-0, and the horse above him had 10-8, so one could could guess he wasn't far out, if at all.
ged -
I also found the card on the Dec 31st edition, last night - as I realised that they would not publish on New Year's day in Scotland.
I tried to copy it to a Word file - to then print on here - but it would not work
MARTINSTOWN's Win EARLIER in the season - also came at Cheltenham.
-------------
I am not even sure if there was such a thing as 'oh' - or, 'Long Handicap Weights', published in the days before OFFICIAL Ratings were used in Centralised Handicapping for Jumpers ... something that came much later than on the FLAT - along with 'Raising of the Weights' - at either 4-Day Decs, or Overnight, or both.
In the days before Centralised Handicaps and OFFICIAL RATINGS based Handicaps ...... When the Handicapper got down to 10 stone 0 lbs - then - that was it - ie, the rest ALL got 10-0 - and NO 'Long Handicap' Weights were even allotted.
I also found the card on the Dec 31st edition, last night - as I realised that they would not publish on New Year's day in Scotland.
I tried to copy it to a Word file - to then print on here - but it would not work
MARTINSTOWN's Win EARLIER in the season - also came at Cheltenham.
-------------
I am not even sure if there was such a thing as 'oh' - or, 'Long Handicap Weights', published in the days before OFFICIAL Ratings were used in Centralised Handicapping for Jumpers ... something that came much later than on the FLAT - along with 'Raising of the Weights' - at either 4-Day Decs, or Overnight, or both.
In the days before Centralised Handicaps and OFFICIAL RATINGS based Handicaps ...... When the Handicapper got down to 10 stone 0 lbs - then - that was it - ie, the rest ALL got 10-0 - and NO 'Long Handicap' Weights were even allotted.
Yes I guess you're right. Presumably that's why they had to have 2 handicaps when Arkle was around. If they'd published a long handicap in those days, that contingency wouldn't have been necessary.
Flichity - ran from 51 lbs - 'out of the handicap - today.
------------
Fakenham Result
19 Nov 2013
« 2:30 » At The Races Novices' Limited Handicap Chase
2nd beaten 64 lengths Flichity (IRE) 100/1 8-10-0 oh 51 John Cornwall OR 124 Joe Corrnwall*5
Always behind, jumped slowly 1st, ridden and lost touch after 11th, tailed off 13th, left poor 2nd last (op 150/1 tchd 200/1)
-------------
Assuming that Winner - King Of The Wolds - and last fence challenging 'Unseated Rider', Dursey Sound - would have run to around a Dead-Heat - meaning that each would have merely run to around their pre-race rating .... As the race Result is impossible to assess by ANYBODY - including Mr Smith - then Flichity will have run to around a further 10 lbs BELOW it's current Official Rating of just 73.
------------
Fakenham Result
19 Nov 2013
« 2:30 » At The Races Novices' Limited Handicap Chase
2nd beaten 64 lengths Flichity (IRE) 100/1 8-10-0 oh 51 John Cornwall OR 124 Joe Corrnwall*5
Always behind, jumped slowly 1st, ridden and lost touch after 11th, tailed off 13th, left poor 2nd last (op 150/1 tchd 200/1)
-------------
Assuming that Winner - King Of The Wolds - and last fence challenging 'Unseated Rider', Dursey Sound - would have run to around a Dead-Heat - meaning that each would have merely run to around their pre-race rating .... As the race Result is impossible to assess by ANYBODY - including Mr Smith - then Flichity will have run to around a further 10 lbs BELOW it's current Official Rating of just 73.
shirley its become which trainer can get two 50+ out fred....
well dine - rcing - You saved us a lot of back-delving there.
There’s a response on here from the boy Graysons to the thread “Dodgy Jock” where he mentions a howler of a ride given to Tom Furze in a Hunter Chase at Warwick back in 1997 by jockey Malcolm Batters (7).
Is this the same Malcolm Batters (7) most famous for one of the most bizarre feats of inadvertant shafting the handicapper ever known?
Originally due to ride the staying chaser Martinstown in a valuable handicap at Cheltenham on New Year’s Day in 1981, Batters was probably somewhat relieved to hear that he had been jocked off in favour of a pro. Unknown to both parties, however, the trainer declared Batters by mistake. Our man had basically been out on the lash all evening knocking back various pints of heavy and a few curries and was more than a little bemused to find the stewards insisting he rode Martinstown as he was the declared jockey.
Having borrowed some rather tight-fitting kit, Batters weighed out putting up a modest two stone and three pounds overweight!
Cue the inevitable – Martinstown holding on by a head after a four-mile slog in the mud at a stingy 33-1. The handicapper subsequently had a fit and I believe that Martinstown never won again.
Is this the same Malcolm Batters (7) most famous for one of the most bizarre feats of inadvertant shafting the handicapper ever known?
Originally due to ride the staying chaser Martinstown in a valuable handicap at Cheltenham on New Year’s Day in 1981, Batters was probably somewhat relieved to hear that he had been jocked off in favour of a pro. Unknown to both parties, however, the trainer declared Batters by mistake. Our man had basically been out on the lash all evening knocking back various pints of heavy and a few curries and was more than a little bemused to find the stewards insisting he rode Martinstown as he was the declared jockey.
Having borrowed some rather tight-fitting kit, Batters weighed out putting up a modest two stone and three pounds overweight!
Cue the inevitable – Martinstown holding on by a head after a four-mile slog in the mud at a stingy 33-1. The handicapper subsequently had a fit and I believe that Martinstown never won again.
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