Judge Dave SMITH calls DEAD-HEAT - in record time

that's imo I should have added but lets just say I got it from the top they like everyone is sick of the daily multiple nuts

I can't be arsed naming them but if certain posters start threads (or they're written in pidgin English) I just ignore them - conversely, if a knowledgeable forumite posts something, I'm inclined to take a peek, so I don't get too bogged down with all the guff on here.

I'd have thought most sensible people on here do likewise...am I wrong?

I remember Dave calling the wrong winner at Wolver one day.
Anyone can make a mistake, but it's the way he said it, it was if that was the final verdict.

I could have sworn it was Western Roots 9th Nov 2006.

ATR aint playing it at the min..

I am just glad that the glaringly obvious result has been amended. Glad I was in some way helpful, although I did not contact the BHA unfortunately. What is apparent is that there is some serious questions that the limp wristed journalists need to get stuck in to;

1) Why was the photo finish print withheld from the public?
2) Why was the eventual photo provided of such poor quality?
3) Why has it taken so long for this result to be amended when there has been such a furor about it?

There is times in life when people have the opportunity to speak out and make a difference, to be the first and be respected for it. Journalists wait a lifetime for a big scoop and it is almost inconceivable that No-one dared put their head on the block, shocking in fact. How they regret their lameness now.

Well done everyone!

wasn't that one, that was Tommo..

I knew it was Western Roots...I am good...lol

11th June 2007.

Mr Dave Smith special and I quote

"Scamperdale's just won from Western Roots"...

just been paid out by sid james, cheers guys

Giblet - I hope it was a tasty payout squire
There must be loads of people getting seriously weighed in...wish I was one of them!

not really Naval, had £40 on at 5/4

yes I do think that what characterizes this thread - apart from a successful campaign - is that it has been conducted in such good humour and has not degenerated into a personal insults unrelated to the original post.

btw, what about the BHA official who twice replied that they stood by the original result. He or she can't be feeling too good, either. I'd like to wager this was written without even checking, they just took the punt no mistake had been made.

I'm just catching up on this.  Very entertaining.
Will he get a few hundred hours community service?

Not been watching the racing today nor kept up with the news so only just read this. It's fantastic news. The result was extremely clear on the photo and it's a scandal that this has not been taken on by any racing journalists. The forum has done an amazing job. If this was smith's first mistake he could maybe be forgiven but it's not. he really should have already resigned though i doubt his ego will allow him too. The guy has made previous important errors and yet still has wanted to be the clever guy who calls a result quickly even though there is nothing clever in that at all. The process the BHA follow must also be questionned. Should one person be responsible for this. Maybe a 2nd person should also be studying the photo to help allay any fears of corruption. The whole process needs reviewing and shame on racing uk and the racing post particularly, for allowing the possibility that this could have been swept under the carpet without the betfair forumites. Well done guys!

There is times in life when people have the opportunity to speak out and make a difference, to be the first and be respected for it. Journalists wait a lifetime for a big scoop and it is almost inconceivable that No-one dared put their head on the block, shocking in fact. How they regret their lameness now.

The thing is denathorn racing journalists get rewarded for keeping their mouth shut, if Ruby or McCoy give a horse a stinker of a ride "silence", if one of Willie Mullins hot shots gets tailed off "silence etc, its called the gravy train, but yet other sporting journalists who don't get rewarded for keeping their mouths shut have no qualms about telling the truth, cycling journalists have teared their sport a new **** ref drugs, if a horse fails a dope test total "silence, its not a news story. If Wayne Rooney has a stinker for England the tabloids have a field day, in a nutshell other sports are reported the way they should be, the public get a fair crack of the whip, racing journalism is a stain on the profession of journalism as a whole, they've failed miserably to represent the people they're employed to protect the punter, and thats not paranoia btw duffy!.

people had money relying on the result,some large amounts probably.so to compare it to wa''ers waving imaginary cards on a football pitch is ludicrous

To a lot of racing journalists Smith would be one of their own. In the 1970s and 1980s he was doing Extel commentaries, then he worked for SIS in the 1990s. During that time he presumably had a racecourse Press badge.

So glad that I did not have any financial involvement in this race.

In 2013 this situation should never ever happen!!!!

Spot on silvergreaser - as the poster above says, I suspect Smith is seen as 'one of us' by most of them.

The saddest thing about this whole debacle is that it has been on the cards for a while, and it appears that no-one in the governing body or the racing press did a thing to try and prevent it.

Does anyone have the full list of bookies to pay out.

I know Sid James and Billies (who were first here) have paid out. Anyone else. I am with Laddies and want to pile on the pressure. They are quick enough to go back into my account and take money back out if a placed horse I back gets thrown out. How about a bit of good gesture and quid pro quo here. The punter has clearly been robbed

PP paid me out 5 mins ago

not been paid by Victor yet

have betfair made a statement about any of it ?

Laddies are not paying. Just went into a shop and asked them to call up

Ladbrokes steadfastly refusing to pay out, lets put the pressure on them !

MHT's blogs today


"I see Judge Dave Smith is getting hammered in the papers today about his verdict on a photo finish on which he gave a dead heat. I have known Dave for a considerable length of time and he’ll be devastated by this mistake. He is a top class judge and commentator and I hope this doesn’t put him off continuing."

I have been one of those to be calling for Smith's either resignation or sacking - I don't feel this is in any way unduly harsh - after all he gets paid handsomely for something that somebody so eloquently put it earlier 'a monkey could do' and has previous on this subject - If I'd done something akin to this in my job and continued to do it I would have been out on my ear (quite rightly) long ago.

However if that does not happen I would be ok for him to continue as long as  procedures are put in place to ENSURE that there is a minimum time period of consideration before the result of ANY photo is announced - I suggest 60 seconds but at a minimum it has to be 30 seconds. That way we will never again have the egotistical Smith ruining excitement and photo betting by calling the result within milliseconds.

Other judges will have to follow suit so we will then have some sort of standard which punters can rely on.

Who is MHT?

Tompkins bilbo'

Think Dave's as good a judge and commentator as Tompkins is a trainer...

Laddies traders confirm that original settlements stand as per their t's and c's, no goodwill gesture

365 have now paid big ty to all bookmakers paying out

365 have now paid big ty to all bookmakers paying out

laddies got to pay for those adverts don't forget

Not sure what Tompkins can add.

so everyone nearly bar Laddies paid out lol

http://www.marktompkins.co.uk/en/daily-news-a-runners

Tompkins blog^

This sheer incompetence (incidents over many years) beggars belief  -  its just too incredible to be incompetence, which leads me to ask .................. just what have the BHA integrity dept been doing regarding this clown and/or his associates !!

I am tweeting and mailing every one I know in the game to put the pressure on the remaining bookies to pay out. as for Betfair, with the contempt they treat their customers it is not even worth asking the question.

same here lustrum, I didn't have a penny on myself but a mate had quite a few hundred on with Laddies in a shop and he is a bit of a technophobe so I helping out

The BHA won't be going public with any sanctions or punishments against Deadbeat Dave apparently.

Re-know all's post about the forum closing. I for one hope they don't. Sure there is a lot of drivel posted, but no one is forced to read it.

No one want's to lose Customers and I am sure betfair are no exception, so I think it will remain. One of Betfair's attractions imho.

any confidence he amassed from his bravado has been washed away by one stupid act of incompetence, do the decent thing Smudger and resign, the only outcome imho

Anyone who feels cheated by Victor Chandler should email details of their bet to the BHA and seek recompense from them. This issue arises out of their employees negligence.

Doubt the amount involved is going to hurt any of the bookmakers as individual companies, would have thought it was a PR dream to put things right and wax lyrical about how they believe in fair play at all costs when it comes to their wonderful customers.
I really must stop dreaming during the day....!

He is a Freelance so presumably self employed. No sack, but will probably not be asked back to judge.

He cost me a few quid on here but I don't want to see the man hanged.

He does a decent job with Gary Wiltshire on sky greyhounds. Maybe that has to be his stage now.

A PR dream is correct and all credit to Billies for leading the charge. I hate billies with a passion (accounts closed for years with them) but they are right here

Andy Stephens ‏@StevoGG
BHA tell me they won't be going public with any sanctions/actions taken against deadheat judge Dave Smith. Described as a private matter.

I put a pound to a penny that his current contract wont be renewed

Barstool

Smith was dropped from the new Greyhound Coverage team which is now run by SIS. Guess that Gravy train stopped and he got off

the train was overcrowded, they had to accommodate the new C4 team, someone had to get off

Andy Stephens ‏@StevoGG 1h

BHA tell me they won't be going public with any sanctions/actions taken against deadheat judge Dave Smith. Described as a private matter.

Remarkable.

Racing Post ‏@RacingPost 4m
Judge Dave Smith has had his contract terminated with immediate effect by the BHA after calling a dead-heat that was later overturned...

Racing Post ‏@RacingPost 2m
...the news comes 6 days after the episode at Kempton that became subject of an internal investigation. Story follows http://racingpost.com
Expand

well done all

DAVE SMITH, the judge at the centre of last Wednesday's controversial Kempton dead-heat verdict, which was later overruled, has had his contract terminated with immediate effect by the BHA.

On Monday the BHA amended the result of the 7f two-year-old maiden which Smith had called as a dead-heat between 16-1 Fire Fighting and even-money favourite Extra Noble, with a nose verdict in favour of Extra Noble.

The swiftly-called result – which took less than a minute to announce – was questioned on social media and racing forums and, after the BHA examined a high-resolution print of the finish, Smith agreed to change the result, triggering an internal investigation.

The end product of that came with Smith being relieved of his duties following a meeting with the personnel department at the BHA's London offices on Tuesday. There was no comment from either party subsequently.

Nevertheless, it's still sad when someone loses their job (on a personal level)

He lost his job due to negligence caused by arrogance.

Sent this to BHA on 28/6

Dear Sirs
I'm contacting you in connection with the so called dead heat in the 19.20 Kempton on Wednesday 26 th June where the result was called less than a minute or two after the horses passed the post. It is quite clear that the dead heat result is incorrect as the far side horse Extra Noble has won by a nose;this is apparent if you blow up the photo.
My questions are
1 what disciplinary action are you taking over the negligent call of the result and
2 what procedures are you putting in place to compensate punters who have lost out over this negligent act by the judge ?


Still awaiting a reply.... by dismissing Smith they have effectively accepted his negligence and should be now responsible for reimbursing punters. The door has been opened for law suits.

poppydog....i have no sympathy for him;this was not an honest mistake it was reckless behaviour and i hope he gets sued to high heaven.

Gross negligence, if I had been guilty of such misconduct at work I would have been thrown out of the door immediately. He won't be missed.

no room for ego's when millions at stake each race

666 post  ^

I have the tattoo on my head lol

can you get it erased Big Boss, because it was that SlippyBlue post...

ha ha no prob

Have betfair paid out ??

lol

Anyone have both the original picture posted as the photo finish and the new HD one that has been made public? I would like to see them side by side.

yawn

was a yawning gap between 1st and 2nd you're right there.

Amazing that ALLWEATHERKING keeps coming back to post on these threads, considering he claims not to give a toss...

like i said on the other thread , if you CTRL + this page and look at both the pics , the lines are in different places

on the bottom pic , the near side horses nose is on the line
in the top pic there is a clear gap

That is scandalous and clearly shows an attempt to cover up and defraud.

AWK - you are a LEVIATHAN scrotum!
Just STFU!

Finally got a reply from BHA to my email last week:

Dear Sir/Madam,



Thank you for your email regarding the photofinish of the 200 Free Bets at **** Maiden Stakes at Kempton on 26th June 2013.



Please accept our apologies for the delay in responding to you.



Initially the photofinish was not available due to a technical fault, but has since been made available on our photofinish page – http://www.britishhorseracing.com/goracing/photofinishes/



As you may be aware, the result of this race was subsequently amended, details of which are available here – http://www.britishhorseracing.presscentre.com/Press-Releases/Notice-of-amend...



We wish to assure you that incidents of this nature are extremely rare.



Kind Regards,



Rhys Williams



(BHA Media and Communications Assistant)

Identical to mine Trusty.

Good to hear is no longer going to appeal but he continues to amaze with his complete lack of contrition, acknowledgement of blame or apology to punters he screwed over.

And his arrogance knows no bounds 'I just had the ability , I suppose, to be able to determine who had won a race and I just used it. There was no ulterior motive to it, I just used it that way'. Well Dave your 'ability' seems to have deserted you last week (and on how many other countless occasions?) and that's even with photographic evidence. Unbelievable. What a piece of work.

Surprising that man who claims to have such a strong case won't be appealling...

it does make you wonder how many other "mistakes" he has made in the past where his decision was just accepted by a gullible betting public who wrongly assumed that judges would automatically check a photo in close finishes and not simply have a wild guess to amuse his friends in the press gallery.

this whole episode leaves a bad taste tbh.......and there is still a lot of unanswered questions.

it does make you wonder how many other "mistakes" he has made in the past where his decision was just accepted by a gullible betting public who wrongly assumed that judges would automatically check a photo in close finishes and not simply have a wild guess to amuse his friends in the press gallery.

What was also infuriating about him was calling a very close result immediately,
to the surprise of many, without using photographic evidence.

Of course, without calling for a photograph, he was officially correct 100% of the time.

I have sent the following reply to the BHA:

Dear Mr Williams

Thank you for your reply to my original email dated June 27th.

Although the BHA have now amended this result and the judge in question has been relieved of his duties, there remains some worrying aspects to this incident.

I find it very hard to believe that a technical fault stopped the publishing of a photograph of the 19:20 race yet the 20:50 race which also resulted in a photograph was posted soon afterwards?

There must have been at least one technical person who would have seen the photograph and must have seen that the result was incorrect? The photographs are also normally available at the course but as I was not present I have no idea that this was the case. Even from the lo-resolution print eventually posted on your site, it was clear that the result was not a dead heat.

What were the Stewards doing on the night? Did they not have the temerity to look at the photograph after the result has been called, is the photograph not automatically displayed on their screens in the Stewards room?

There are many outstanding questions that would be useful to be clarified and for the BHA to state categorically the instructions for a judge to decipher the result of a very close finish. My understanding was that with the latest technology even very close results can be decided by a matter of pixels and thus dead heats would become very rare.

With all the scandals currently in the horse racing arena, it is more important than ever for transparency from the BHA if the sport is to retain it's appeal to the general public.

Regards

Good luck with that Trusty, it maybe some considerable time before a reply is forthcoming me thinks.

I too got a similar email yesterday with the addition of a final clause which read
We wish to assure you that incidents of this nature are extremely rare, and whilst we understand the frustration of members of the betting public that have lost out financially as a result of the original result, we will not be able to compensate for any losses.

I've replied
Dear Mr
Thank you for your email however I don't agree that the BHA are unable to compensate for losses although I fully accept they might not want to.
My understanding and please correct me if i'm wrong is that Smith was contracted by the BHA to perform the services of 'judge' at various race meetings and for whatever reason failed to take reasonable care and therefore called the wrong result. As a result of his negligence punters have unfairly lost money.The BHA having set up an inquiry have obviously taken into account previous mistakes made by Smith and concluded that it is not safe to let him continue.In these circumstances it is unreasonable for the BHA to wash their hands of any liability for the inadequate performance of their sub contractor ,especially when it has been common knowledge that Smith's speedy calling of close finishes has been an accident waiting to happen.
In these circumstances i'd be grateful if you would reconsider compensating my loss.


I don't want to let this go until there is complete transparency as to what precisely happened and an inquiry as how Smith has carried out his duties in the past.I get the impression he has been a loose cannon and a law unto himself.

and also why the likes of the initial enquiries to the BHA were rebuffed, 'nothing to see here. the decision is correct' as per R Mounsey emails? - what action is being taken there

think you are correct in chasing the BHA for your loss, posy

As one who "thought" Dave Smith might have made a mistake, looking at the new print, have to say that it is very close... but by today's pixilated technology standard, he drew the line in the wrong place and Extra Noble did indeed win by a nose.

But still absolutely no excuse for calling the result in 36 seconds. If nothing else, Smith was 100% negligent in not giving himself more time to review. If this decision had gone unchallenged, it could have set a precedent and led to other judges adopting a similar approach, whilst Smith may have been inclined to see if he could break his own 36 second "record".

If it was a one-off, then sacking Dave was harsh. But if the BHA have warned Dave before, or given him "retraining" or made clear the procedures to be followed in adjudicating photo-finishes, then letting him go was the correct decision. Only the BHA (and Dave himself) will know the answer to that.

Good luck with that Trusty, it maybe some considerable time before a reply is forthcoming me thinks.


Agreed. I can't see the BHA publicly answering any more questions on this - at least not any meaningful ones.

Pedro, the Lord Almighty could not have produced a print and drawn a line in 22 seconds. He called the result off the naked eye, realised his mistake after and drew the line incorrectly to try and throw people off the scent. Thanks to the people on here that chased it up he was caught and fired and imo he should be criminally charged for what he has done.

I could be wrong, lustrumm, but I think the judge gets to put his line on an immediately available computer image upon which he can move a line backwards and forwards against the first point of a horse's nose he can find.

I doubt very much Dave saw them cross the line on the course and called a dead heat.

Was Smith the judge when Kauto Star touched off Imperial Commander at Haydock a few years ago?
My mate was there that day and he swears Imperial Commander won...alas, he can't remember who was officiating that day - can anyone on here?

NG I doubt it but it has been announced that Haydock for some technical  reason has a different ( worse ! )  photo equipment set-up to other courses.

Smudger made the fatal mistake of trying to rectify his mistake by fudging the line on the photo, should be called "fudger"

Howard - I've just noticed that someone else has mentioned this very race on another thread which is a big coincidence.
Just how big was 'the stink' over the result?

Most of what I know I heard from a mate, though I remember being at home watching on TV and Imperial Commander being long odds-on for the photo...possibly around 1.25 if memory serves.

Surely someone knows who the judge was that day?

judge was mark ritchie-noakes

Thanks Elise...did you see the print that day?

yes, but here's a full account and the pic
.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-1230060/Five-star-display-Kauto-Star-marred-photo-row.html

NG I remember that race. I've got to say I disagreed with the betting and kicked myself for not playing. It's a tricky angle and as I say there is something technical there possibly lack of mirror image. But I would advise you or anyone else to look at other cases rather than this one.

Thanks again...from that picture it looks like Kauto Star held on, but my mate was flapping about the picture he saw at the track - was there a furore on here about it?

And if there is something technical which was belatedly admitted by BHA  in cases at Newc. and Muss. nothing can be done apart from fitting OVERHEAD equipment

Howard - I'm just going by what a friend said and he's never let go of that bone!
Can anyone confirm the photo betting? I was thinking Imperial Commander might have been even shorter than 1.25...there were a lot of surprised faces on TV when the result was announced.

I don't think so. It was one of those where it was behind before and after the line but in front on it.

a huge result for the punters guys...ok we needed a stewards enquiry but got there in the end...well done to all who got involved and the betfair forum for not giving this up.
i dont like to hear about anyone getting the sack but this guy had no respect for the normal punter and still thinks he done nothing wrong which is quite unbelievable.Wake up and smell the coffee mate.