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factmachine
09 May 13 20:27
Joined:
Date Joined: 02 Nov 05
| Topic/replies: 4,783 | Blogger: factmachine's blog
IF EVER THERE WAS AN EXAMPLE FOR A  NEED OF A SLIDING SCALE FOR PITCH FEES TO STAND IN THE BETTING RINGS,THEN U COULDNT OF OFFERED A BETTER REASON THAN TODAY AT CHESTER.ALMOST ALL THE PICHES PAST THE FIRST LINE WERE UNWORKABLE YET HAD TO PAY THE SAME TO STAND/MARKETING FEE,EVEN THOUGH INCLEMENT WEATHER CONDITIONS WERE THE REASON BEHIND THE FRONT LINE DOING ALL THE BIZZ,IT DOESNT HALF GRATE WHEN 11 OUT OF THE 12 OF THOSE ON THE FRONT LINE WERE 1/5 EWAY ON THE CHESTER CUP THE DAY BEFORE.CryCryCry
Pause Switch to Standard View THE INJUSTICE OF BOOKMAKING IN TATTS
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Report wasnot May 10, 2013 8:28 AM BST
Ribero1 would be 1st in the queue.
Report OliasOfSunhillow May 10, 2013 8:32 AM BST
Just not enough MUGS to go around I would seem, even at the big meets
Report factmachine May 10, 2013 8:40 AM BST
OLIAS,OH THERES PLENTY AND THEY KEEP PAYING VAST SUMS FOR WORTHLESS RACECOURSE PITCHESCry
Report Davy Jones May 10, 2013 8:41 AM BST
I bet at this meeting 3 years ago in 3rd line. It was a warm sunny day. Took £2.5k all day averaging 50 slips a race. Never again. Nice to see the rails bookmaker on ch4 taking 1500 slips @ £60 per bet!!!!!
Report factmachine May 10, 2013 8:43 AM BST
DAVY,IS HIS PITCH UP FOR SALE BY ANY CHANCELaughLaughLaugh
Report Logistics May 10, 2013 8:57 AM BST
FACTMACHINE your idea is ridiculous to put it mildly.So pick 1 at chester pays say £50k for the priveledge.You would like them to pay say a monkey a day to work.The shrewd bookie in the 3rd line pays £100 for his pitch and constantly tells everyone how smart he is now wants to pay say £25 a day to "work".Would the worst pick in the ring pay a fiver? if so, expect an increase in attendances as the tightwads could turn up just to gloat at the poor front line paying big exes but actually working.
Report factmachine May 10, 2013 9:03 AM BST
LOGISTICS,YOUR IDEA IS RIDICULOUS TO PUT T MILDLY,SO PICK NUMBER ONE WHO IS BETTING IN A NEW AREA AND CANT COPE WITH THE BETS AND SLIPAGE,LAYING EVERYTHING AT CHESTERBET ODDS OR LESS,PAYS THE SAME TO BET AS PICK NUMBER 80 THATS OK THEN,THE TIGHTWADS AS U DESCRIBE WERE ON THE FRONT LINE BETTING 1/5 THE ODDS ON THE CHESTER CUP ON WEDS.JOKE SITUATION.
Report Logistics May 10, 2013 9:10 AM BST
I've never seen a racecourse bookie who is so busy that he can't cope! What did he do, pack up early due to exhaustion ? Of course you can be "BIGGER THAN THE MACHINE" at times as you have invested a pathetic amount on purchasing pitches but bear in mind during a downpour no one cares.
Report factmachine May 10, 2013 9:26 AM BST
WHAT I HAVE INVESTED ON PITCHES(AROUND 30K PATHETIC AMOUNT ACCORDING TO U)HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT IS GEARED TOWARDS HIGH END PICKS(OR TIGHT WADS AS U DESCRIBE)IS KILLING THE GAME AND THE RING,ONLY THEY AGAIN COULD HAVE AGREED TO A MARKETING FEE(I WONDER WHY)AGAIN WHICH PICK ONE PAYS THE SAME AS PICK 80,U COULDNT WRITE IT.
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 10, 2013 9:37 AM BST
A point not often mentioned,

Tote staff - Free admission!

On course bookmaker staff - Full admission price!
Report adge May 10, 2013 9:54 AM BST
reading with interest these views.
before the buying and selling came in I only had silver ring pitches but grasped the nettle to invest cash I had made "in the good old days" by buying a selection of tatts pitches. I made the mistake of spreading myself too thin with some good buys but also some poor bigger numbers..number 41 at Doncaster being a good example. I soon worked out that error and sold the bad ones , thinned down the portfolio and bought better pitches , in fact i'm still using that strategy now.
in my book , recent fee increases are just a red herring , I agree with everyone about the marketing fee but I don't expect it to last , and the sliding scale fee was one of the first things dismissed BY THE RACECOURSES not the negotiating team.
from me expect three or four more sales and two purchases [ when the right price ] this year.
some of our collegues expound too much energy by moaning instead of forward planning
Report Davy Jones May 10, 2013 10:08 AM BST
Adge - why dont you expect the marketing fee to last, sure everyone has moaned about it but the books are still attending and the racecourses are earning a nice few quid from it.
Report factmachine May 10, 2013 10:12 AM BST
SORRY ADGE BUT I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE SLIDING SCALE FEE WAS ONE OF THE "FIRST THINGS DISMISSED BY THE RACECOURSES NOT THE NEGOTIATING TEAM"BUT IM SURE WHEN OPEN AND FAIR TALKS WITH THE RACECOURSES BY A REPRESENTATION OF ALL RACECOURSE BOOKMAKERS TAKES PLACE,THIS WILL COME TO LIGHT.OFF TO CHESTER NOW IN THE POURING RAIN,HOPE NONE OF MY COLLEGUES EXPOUND TOO MUCH ENERGY MOANING AND HAVE FORWARD PLANNED WITH WET GEAR AND UMBRELLAS(PREF NOT ADVERTISING AN EXCHANGECryCryCryCry)
Report adge May 10, 2013 10:42 AM BST
just a feeling , davy , we keep pushing at them regarding how they are spending it and some are not happy at that . two or three have said they wish it had never come in.
good luck today , fact
Report Davy Jones May 10, 2013 10:48 AM BST
Well good luck with that Adge. Im very surprised there have been no comments on here re. Royal ascot arrangements - 20% off badge if you buy for the full week  - step in the right direction, though still too pricey for me!
Report mmmalushka May 10, 2013 11:10 AM BST
The racecourses should be re-allocating the picks so their paying customers know exactly what they are getting.ie
Front line, reserved for proper bookies betting to tattersalls ew terms.
Middle line, yellowflaghoisterers, need I say more.
Back line, flimpers and fiddlers, may have to extend the back line.
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 10, 2013 11:47 AM BST
mmmalushka,

Yeah, so where does that leave me to bet?

Laugh
Report Logistics May 10, 2013 1:43 PM BST
FACT, investing £30k in pitches ! that amounts to buying less than 1 good pitch.Anyone would buy 50 x £600 pitches if your ideas were feasible.They are not, so v few bookies do.
Report 545APG May 10, 2013 2:15 PM BST
Not often I agree with the original poster but on this occasion I do

The sliding scale should start immediately with those in pick one who have paid more fore their picks should pay less than those in £100 picks
Report adge May 10, 2013 7:24 PM BST
some of our friends on the forum would be frothing at the mouth to learn of some of the bets flashing round the market rasen ring today.
the game has gone , eh ...you must be joking
Report Davy Jones May 10, 2013 7:27 PM BST
adge - let me know when these bets turn up at worcester, bath, chepstow, taunton etc Different Gravy Up North by the sound of it!
Report factmachine May 10, 2013 7:30 PM BST
I WAS FROTHING AT THE MOUTH WHEN THE LAST WINNER 9/2 TO 5/2 GOT UP TO WIN AT CHESTER,PLAYED 7 LOST 6 DONE THE PROVERBIALSCryCry
Report mr crisp May 10, 2013 9:10 PM BST
adges philosophy is spot on having a good site is crucial in most competetive business ventures
Report mug1 May 11, 2013 3:49 PM BST
Adge out of interest which are the 3 or 4 pitches you may want to sell
Report adge May 11, 2013 11:02 PM BST
newbury [ nh ] , huntingdon , stratford , Newmarket [ july ]


and maybe thirsk after tonight [ only joking ]
Report democrat May 12, 2013 6:57 PM BST
The bids are probably flying in already adge. As for your comment about the racecourses dismissing 'graduated badge fees' - I would have thought they couldn't give a damn as long as the budgeted sums were achieved, but those with vested interests and likely to pay an increased sum certainly would ! Besides on the days when fewer books operated the racecourses could be the beneficiaries compared to the current situation. Since the racecourses have already shown their approval of a higher multiplier to apply on 'premium' days has the precedent not already been set ?
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 7:06 PM BST
demo - the courses weren't interested.  Just because you think its a good idea doesn't mean that they do.
Report democrat May 12, 2013 7:44 PM BST
Wassy if any point such as the one in question is proposed positively and argued with a well thought through logic by those able to articulate well it stands a fair chance of acceptance. The cloak and dagger, smoke and mirrors - call it what you will - surrounding the negotiations leaves those with a level of knowledge best described as 'a need to know' to try to believe the comments of such as your good self. I trust you accept that the scepticism surrounding this issue is not without foundation.
Report democrat May 12, 2013 7:45 PM BST
Wassy if any point such as the one in question is proposed positively and argued with a well thought through logic by those able to articulate well it stands a fair chance of acceptance. The cloak and dagger, smoke and mirrors - call it what you will - surrounding the negotiations leaves those with a level of knowledge best described as 'a need to know' to try to believe the comments of such as your good self. I trust you accept that the scepticism surrounding this issue is not without foundation.
Report democrat May 12, 2013 7:52 PM BST
If you make the point twice - you stand even more chance of acceptance !!! Blush
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 8:03 PM BST
There are no easy answers Demo.  Human nature is that everyone looks at things like this from their own perspective.  Like I've said before, I'm done with arguing on the negotiations, but I do know that everyone is struggling at the moment, even the decent picks are not immune from it.
Report ribero1 May 12, 2013 8:08 PM BST
Exactly wasnot,so come on demo can we see the fees you suggest everyone pays because I have "top" picks at most tracks I bet at and certainly feel I am paying more than enough at the moment so do you want me to pay more so Fact & co can pay a tenner?
Report the artful dodger May 12, 2013 8:17 PM BST
ribero,thats exactly what tim wants,although i think a tenners a bit steep especially off his £10 pitch at chester,Laugh
Report mugbookie May 12, 2013 8:19 PM BST
I'll give you an idea Ribero....3% of GROSS turnover upto 6k for everybody including silver rings....festivals upto 10k.I have suggested before to yourself that a GROSS turnover tax would have two very major advantages....it would stop the lunatic no margin have it all back merchants dead in their tracks....and it would insulate us from future entrance price rises...but you didn't want to know.The racecourses might be interested because initially they would receive more income, but I  will guarantee you one thing Ribero, because of the lunatic monetary policies of global central banks, a GROSS turnover tax will be the only way to secure your business under the current contracts long term.
Report factmachine May 12, 2013 8:24 PM BST
WISE WORDS AS USUAL MUG,ARTFUL WOULD U PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT,THE PICK IS NOW WORTH £6.50PBlush
Report the artful dodger May 12, 2013 8:27 PM BST
thats a bit inflated atm isnt itCry
Report ribero1 May 12, 2013 8:27 PM BST
3%? so if I take 6k tomorrow at Donny I pay 180 for the badge?
Report mugbookie May 12, 2013 8:32 PM BST
YES....BUT CRUNCH SOME NUMBERS REGARDING THE EFFECTS ON MARGIN....YOUR MARGIN/TURNOVER WILL IMPROVE BECAUSE THE HALF A PER CENT A RUNNER HAVE IT ALL BACK MERCHANTS WILL BE PRICED OUT
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 8:33 PM BST
Only was courses would agree to a % would be on top of the badge mugbookie.
Report ronnie rails May 12, 2013 8:34 PM BST
factmachine

a guy who has a share in a book at York was in the shop today, he said are you at York this week I said yes doing all 3 days, I asked if he was stood up and he replied yes but we have sold the tats pitch and bought one on the course as York tats isn't worth a candle.

I remember over 20 years ago jp going down the rails betting one of sangsters to win a fortune, he said in the sporting life York ring is probably the best in the country, what would he say now I wonder?
Report factmachine May 12, 2013 8:34 PM BST
BUT MUG,THAT WILL REMOVE 80% OF THE RINGShocked
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 8:35 PM BST
Turnover tax is usually based on gross takings rather than net hold.  Can see it now "£1,000 on the fav please Mr Bookie" "Sorry sir you can have a fifty as I can't afford the turnover payments"
Report democrat May 12, 2013 8:37 PM BST
So given your reaction to prevailing circumstances ribero how do you think the lower picks are feeling ? Natural wastage of nos. in the ring ( almost certainly from the lower end ) will occur for various reasons - advancements in technology, reduced turnover, increased expenses etc. -  an unfair system of 'fees' should not be added to the list. Efforts to improve the status quo, despite wasnot's reluctance to revisit the negotiations, should be supported without prejudice. Unfortunately thorny topics such as Schedule Y, pitch renting, fairness of badge fees, multi pitches, to name but a few, if addressed would affect different people in different ways financially and therein lies the real problem !
Report factmachine May 12, 2013 8:38 PM BST
RONNIE,THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE PAYING TENS OF THOUSANDS FOR YORK TATTS PICKS,SO IT MUST STILL BE GOODCryCryCry
Report mugbookie May 12, 2013 8:38 PM BST
WASNOT - SURELY THATS BETTER THAN...YES SIR... £1000 BACK ON THE MACHINE CLERK....WOULD YOU LIKE THE BET AGAIN SIR ?
Report factmachine May 12, 2013 8:40 PM BST
MUG,DEMO IS RUNNING U A CLOSE SECOND HEREHappy
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 8:40 PM BST
Be my guest to attend the next BPA meeting and get your point across Demo, as I've suggested before.  Moaning on an internet forum will get you nowhere.

The other point is, I am not reluctant to revisit the negotiations, I'm just done with arguing about it on here and there is a lot of talking and not much listening.
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 8:42 PM BST
Only laying someone a fifty is better?  Really?
Report ribero1 May 12, 2013 8:47 PM BST
"how do you feel the lower picks are feeling?",probably very relieved they haven't invested fortunes like some of the better picks!
Incidentally tomorrow at Donny where adge advises they are expecting a crowd of 1100 there will probably be as many picks above 20 as below and on the rails more out of the numbers than in!
Would someone be so kind as to explain why this will be?
Report democrat May 12, 2013 8:49 PM BST
Wrong again wassy - plenty of listening, very little hearing !!!!
Report mugbookie May 12, 2013 8:50 PM BST
yes wassy because the bigger punters will find out where they can actually get on...you have idiots betting to no per cent taking decent bets that should stay in the ring and having it straight back on the machine.Some of these individuals would not lay two bananas to one before exchanges as well you know !

DEMO - A concise, lucid post as usual.
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 8:54 PM BST
Just because you don't agree with a posting doesn't make it wrong Demo.
Report democrat May 12, 2013 9:05 PM BST
Cant disagree with you there ribero. I like you have turned up on numerous occasions and been bewildered by the no. of layers knowing that if a decent pitch is barely workable what can the lesser picks be taking. Following those previous experiences I am no longer surprised by such occurrences but remain puzzled how those less advantaged on such days manage to make ends meet.

Thanks mug - I was told at Chester by a layer that my postings are wasted on most. I'm glad you are not one of the 'most'.
Report democrat May 12, 2013 9:06 PM BST
I couldn't agree more wassy and just because you do agree with a posting ( or even negotiation ) does not make it right !
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 9:08 PM BST
demo, you spend a lot of time on here second guessing what happened in the negotiations.  Have you tried asking one of the negotiators?
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 9:14 PM BST
That sounded like I was having a go but I'm not.  There is a lot of background info that they can tell you that should not appear on a forum and would perhaps help you to understand where the current position came from.
Report mugbookie May 12, 2013 9:18 PM BST
DEMO - POSTINGS NOT WASTED ON ME....WE SING FROM THE SAME HYMN SHEET.

WASNOT - I spoke to one of the negotiators a couple of times....got very little feedback...not concerned at the time  because I  expected that the deals would be put before the associations for debate....obviously, that wasn't the case...like a coup d'etat
Report theressomepratsonhere May 12, 2013 9:19 PM BST
has anything been done about third party adverts on the mush for those who like to advertise who are eating us or the clear display of place terms or in some cases there clear if any display as to who the punter has had a bet with
Report democrat May 12, 2013 9:25 PM BST
No offence taken wassy. I appreciate your comments/advice but as has been well documented an individual being debriefed on what was discussed and took place by somebody in the know whilst on the face of it is a step in the right direction does not help those who would remain in the dark. The lack of dissemination of this information is at best reprehensible. Without wanting you to go against your wishes wassy can you say if the meetings with the racecourses were minuted ? Apologies if this question has been asked before.
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 9:37 PM BST
I don't know if they were minuted demo.  It was unfortunate that I had to take a side step at the time due to my son's operation which took up all of my time (I didn't even have time to go racing for much of it).

I'm mainly referring to the advice we received from barristers and Ranaleigh, the political lobbyists.  I have read their advice on many points myself.  Like I said, I don't think its a good idea to put it all over an open forum.

I do understand where you are coming from regarding getting debriefed by people who you feel have skewed the negotiations in their own favour - they could tell you anything.  If you don't trust them then its meaningless.  As I've said before I don't believe this to be the case but I know you hold an opposing view.

mugbookie - that would have been the ideal scenario of course.  Unfortunately we couldn't tie the courses down to recommended deals until very late in the day, despite all the pressure we could possibly exert.  Negotiation is a 2 way thing.
Report democrat May 12, 2013 9:43 PM BST
But you can find out if they were minuted ? If they were that's fine if not it is for each to make his own mind up why not !
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 9:50 PM BST
The courses did insist on a lot of secrecy at times demo.  If you contact your association rep I'm sure they can find out for you.  Have you tried adge?
Report democrat May 12, 2013 9:53 PM BST
No - he's always out playing dominoes !! About time we had a bit of levity wassy - serious subject but we mustn't get too serious !
Report wasnot May 12, 2013 10:00 PM BST
Lots of worried bookies about at the moment.  We need a sustained period of dry weather and the odd result I think!
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 12, 2013 10:05 PM BST
In my opinion, Bookmakers are their own worst enemies!

My biggest gripe, Margins, or the lack of!

A perfect example, Yarmouth, last Tuesday,

8 'books' in the ring, pre race discussion about the possibility of betting to 2% a runner!

More chance of Skinto putting up a f*cking winner!
Report SkintofGreatYarmouth May 12, 2013 10:23 PM BST
Hey, i heard that!

Laugh
Report democrat May 12, 2013 10:34 PM BST
Skinto pitched up in the top eight - whatever next ? He must've had it bang off !
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 12, 2013 10:41 PM BST
democrat,

I forgot to tell you,

You were half in!

Laugh
Report democrat May 12, 2013 10:43 PM BST
And half out !!!
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 12, 2013 10:50 PM BST
Sounds like, 'The Hokey Cokey'!

youtu.be/qK0M0v-j4-c

Laugh
Report mugbookie May 12, 2013 11:30 PM BST
'hokey cokey'....isn't that what bookmakers do these days after a winning race ?
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 12, 2013 11:41 PM BST
mugbookie,

Laugh
Report democrat May 13, 2013 9:36 AM BST
And sing 'This Could Be The Last Time' !!!!
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 13, 2013 9:47 AM BST
democrat,

Laugh
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 11:11 AM BST
SHOW ME THE WAY TO GO HOME
Report mugbookie May 13, 2013 11:26 AM BST
I'M TIRED...AND VERY SHORT OF BREAD. Cry
Report chatto May 13, 2013 11:41 AM BST
Wassy-the racecourses left it late in the day to reach agreement precisely because this has always been the modis operandi of the RCA.There is a long record of this tactic which is designed to force our negotiaters to accept very poor terms.Most bookmakers now  believe that the price paid for tenure has been very high.The negotiators were advised that this was the usual tactic of the RCA and that the way forward was to go to law on the strength of a strong case plus the support of many MP's.It would probably have been cheaper than the Ranleigh outfit.Have you seen how much they have charged and are still charging?
Report miprixabloater May 13, 2013 12:47 PM BST
How long security of tenure have the books got? when the contract ends is another one negotiated?

Provided all parties agree to terms and condition is security of tenure guaranteed?
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 12:49 PM BST
40 YEAR I TINK
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 12:49 PM BST
STEVE GIBBS WILL BE 125 ....HOPE HES STILL GOING
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 12:50 PM BST
S.O.G.Y....WILL BE 105 WE,LL SING GOD SAVE THE KING
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 12:51 PM BST
GOD SAVE THE KING DOWN TO S.O.G.Y WITH A RING
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 13, 2013 1:00 PM BST
johnnywilkinson,

Ooh, you are awful, but I like you!

Love
Report miprixabloater May 13, 2013 1:02 PM BST
That seems fair enough, I suppose the tracks being the greedy hungry twots they

are will in the interim try their hardest to squeeze blood out of a stone.
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 1:03 PM BST
ARISE ....SIR S.O.G.Y
Report Davy Jones May 13, 2013 1:04 PM BST
40 years might seem a long time - down side is the pitch is now a depreciating asset - previously you could buy a pitch and its capital value could/might hold up so that it can be transferred from generation to generation.
Report miprixabloater May 13, 2013 1:07 PM BST
Davy, if you have paid £100000 for a good pick, that works out at £2500 a year even if

there is no residual value, imo as cheap as chips.
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 1:10 PM BST
IF YOUVE PAID 150 NICKER FOR A PITCH THEN YOUVE HAD YA CHIPS
Report miprixabloater May 13, 2013 1:11 PM BST
johnny, nowt in lfe is for nowt.
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 1:14 PM BST
EI BLOATER YA MORE THAN RIGHT
Report Racecourse Regular May 13, 2013 1:22 PM BST
If I buy a big house I pay X times more than somebody in a smaller one....... If I rent a shop I pay for the turnover by square feet....... so naturally Tesco pays more than the local corner shop............   

But if you a on-course bookie no 1 pitch (the equivalent to having a shop on Oxford Street) pays the same as the no 30 man which is the equivalent of a corner shop in the middle of nowhere.......... Crazy
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 1:25 PM BST
YOU WONT SEE MR.PATEL OR MR.SINGH BETTING LAST OF 18 AT NOTTINGHAM
Report miprixabloater May 13, 2013 1:25 PM BST
Racecourse, well who agreed to the terms? your association?  If so sack "em.
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 1:25 PM BST
GOD CRIKEY ME NO
Report Racecourse Regular May 13, 2013 1:28 PM BST
No They 2 smart..... Everything 10% + with them
Report johnnywilkinson May 13, 2013 1:31 PM BST
AND THEY BET TO 18% ON A TIN OFF BEANS
Report factmachine May 13, 2013 1:34 PM BST
ABANDON SHIP,EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF,OUR RESCUE SHIP HMS ILLUMINATI IS STEAMING OFF WITH ONLY 10 PEOPLE ON BOARD AND IT HOLDS OVER 300ShockedSadCry
Report mugbookie May 13, 2013 2:10 PM BST
Afternoon Fact - The problem for the shipmates, is that they're too busy rearranging the deck chairs to notice the bloody great iceberg dead ahead...gurgle..gurgle...gurgle...gone !
Report Racecourse Regular May 13, 2013 2:20 PM BST
Laugh  they on a recruitment march looking for bookmakers unable to think for themselves, stick with me pal it will be alright (I will look after your interest's honest guv but really Ill feck you at the first opportunity)
Report mugbookie May 13, 2013 2:26 PM BST
RR - THAT'S JUST TOO UNKIND...BUT PROBABLY TRUE. Sad
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