Solution to on course betting demise

you obviously didn't notice the size of crowd and level of business today at Newmarket.
the twelve silver ring books could barely cope with the demand

Newmarket on 1000 guineas day is hardly representative of day to day racing. Away from the big festivals the atmosphere on the racecourses is dull compared to years gone by. My suggestion will have no impact on the busy scene you describe because those silver ring punters would still have their small cash bets. What it would do is bring money to the racecourses and recreate the circus of familiar faces who are sadly missing these days.

racecourses do not care as long as they get their concerts in during the summer thats all they care about these days,

Are you kidding about the Silver Ring adge ?

Silver ring was poor yesterday.  Altho certainly a bigger crowd in there today.  Even getting out was much more difficult, in fact if I was not so polite I could have been involved in a road rage incident myself with a very aggressive driver!

Silver ring was poor yesterday.  Altho certainly a bigger crowd in there today.  Even getting out was much more difficult, in fact if I was not so polite I could have been involved in a road rage incident myself with a very aggressive driver!

Silver ring was poor yesterday.  Altho certainly a bigger crowd in there today.  Even getting out was much more difficult, in fact if I was not so polite I could have been involved in a road rage incident myself with a very aggressive driver!

Could you repeat that again?

Tanya was shouting they were taking more on the hot dog stand..............

I was sorting out a lost ticket claim and the ring managers told me the silver were the busiest on course.
Saturday there was a full front line plus at least three on the back.
today only 12 books and a cracking crowd

good point , 11kv , a hot dog cost £5 and a burger £6.50 so sure to be popular

Exactly paid 7.50 for a tortilla wrap at Ascot Weds,cant afford to bet and eat..............

Salisbury was absolutely rammed to the gills yesterday, horrible results but the business was very good.

THIRSK was busiest for 4 years and up 30% on last year.

REGIT, were they mostly £2-5 bets?

Regit will be welcoming clients old and new at his local track today,should be busy with the weather.

ribero, you must be getting bundles.

No worries wee eck,day off today for me,gave Beverley up a few years ago,Donny used to have a very good meeting today but unfortunately when it closed for redevelopment it transferred to Windsor and arena in their wisdom have left it there.

average £9 a ticket.biggest £300 on the odds on shot.although id like bigger bets at least there still coming and if economy picks up they might have more on.

Racecourses should offer exchange betting at 2 per cent commission for all at specially provided terminals.

They are not allowed to do this.

beverley interesting ribero.relatively new meeting was building slowly till last year when it was freezing and i did 232 bets.

ribero, just a few days ago Brian was saying that the rings are near dead, he is obviously wrong.

I bet in the silver ring both Saturday and Sunday
At Newmarket
Saturday packed down after four
Yesterday didn't do a thousand bets
So it was hardly mega

It seems the 'on course demise' was entirely down to the weather.  Sun comes out and so do the punters

The faces represent less than 2% of the betting pop'. Its the other 98% you need to attract so why offer 2% comm when you can command 2% but charge the punter 3%. They would still be on a better deal than betting with the on course guys

hello again , olias , still living in your own little dream world I see

Why don't Betfair buy Redcar and have an exchange racecourse ? Wouldn't cost much !!

Why don't Betfair buy Redcar and have an exchange racecourse ? Wouldn't cost much !!

Exchanges can't operate on racecourses.

If they wanted to buy a track for this purpose they would need to licence it as a massive trading room. That would mean that they would not be allowed to sell alcohol for starters plus kids would not be permitted to enter.

Sounds like a bit of a non starter to me.

They could have smaller trading rooms within a racecourse but that wouldn't have the same effect.

Racing enthusiasts need more of an incentive to go racing. In the old days regulars would travel to a. Have a bet at 4 per cent tax and then later nil and b. To watch the race live. Now there is no incentive from either a betting or watching point of view.
If the serious gamblers were attracted back to the racecourse I am sure the atmosphere would improve without the habits of the non price sensitive cash punter changing at all.
The racecourses own the picture rights and therefore could force this through.

can on course bookmakers take bets from people not on course over the telephone ?

can on course bookmakers take bets from people not on course over the telephone ?


Yes. Assuming they have the correct licences etc.

They might have a telephone business elsewhere anyway. No restrictions on where they take the calls.

Why don't Betfair take over the world?
Things aren't great wee eck and will never come back to previous high's but not complaining yet!As wasnot points out the weather plays it's part and I now see it's forecast to p1ss it down at Chester!

Talking of Chester I have just looked at Wednesday's card,there are 15 entered in the Lily Agnes!What's the spread on non runners? at least 5 imo.

thanks banks

I am trying to help bookmakers get more business from punters that can't get on because on course bookmakers  :
bigger than the machine
no premium charge
take large bets

I have posted on the below thread which I have ttt

BOOKMAKER URGES CREATION OF A NEW BODY TO SAVE RING

' course bookmakers bigger than the machine' !!!

on favourites , ceebee YES

Bookies, did the weather help you on the 2000 guineas? The shower just before the race seemed to clear out the betting ring, could have put off many favourite backers...

put off all punters , totally ruined the race for betting. came totally at the wrong time

Bigger in what sense? Bigger prices - no because arbers would knock them over. Bigger in that they take bigger bets  - generally no but no doubt one or two honourable exceptions.

Good morning Adge, what part of my declared dream world in this thread do you not agree with ?

sorry , just off out into the sunshine a Beverley , catch you later

Banned_Banks,

I think that you'll find that any on-course Bookmaker taking telephone bets from off-course punters is subject to the same rules that govern Betting Offices. Any profit is subject to 15% Customs Duty and 10%(? ) Levy contribution and all such calls are to be logged.

wonder if this helps the argument , i like a flutter during the week and go racing twice a month,its bank holiday monday nice weather 7 or 8 meetings ,and i,d struggle to name a horse ive follwed or no at any of the meetings

Hope this terminal is easy to use after 12 pints

dont really see where the problem is the bookies are there if you want them,if people arnt using them its because they give a poor service, theyll go the same way as the icecream van selling poor cornets at inflated prices,
there no longer an integral part of the raceday scene,savy punters have their phones etc and the day trippers would be quite happy to use the tote if that was the only available outlet

BEVERLEY business best ever for this day.twice as busy as last year.weather,weather,weather.

We could barely cope at times at Warwick.  Proper EW terms every race, everyone got every bet they asked for, all fav's bigger than the machine (in the course enclosure).  Happy days are here again :)

Rails busy at WW too, mainly small bets but a few large ones too. Make the most of the sunshine tomorrow cos it looks like cooling off after that

I have to spoil the excitement but although there was a mass crowd at Beverley , tatts was not over busy although I won well.
the centre of the course was bursting at the seams [ as warwick looked to be ]the punters over there didn't seem to mind being more than twenty deep queueing to get a bet on

Not like you to be in the wrong ring adge.  Sounds like you need to get the chequebook out again!

when you think , you know , the weather is so vitally important.
everybody attending Beverley today had a pint glass in their hand. the racecourse must have been close to being drunk dry.
massive profits for the racecourse.
compared to may day last year when there was an icy north sea wind blowing and the place was deserted

anyway , the answer to the OP is simple , nothing to do with exchanges or bookmakers , which is bigger or better means nothing.
the simple solution is SUNSHINE

I've just driven past Yarmouth Racecourse, en route to, 'Weasel Towers' and crowds are already gathering to catch a glimpse of the legendary, Skinto, when he arrives for tomorrow's must attend meeting!

Make the most of it skinto - when you think of it have a walk round and count the crowd !! No need for that natty suit you were wearing over the weekend to get another airing tomorrow !

It will be interesting to see how many bookmakers turn up!

Hopefully, just me and 'flash'!

Its so weather related, colossal crowd at the enfield chase yesterday, business wasnt fantastic but workable.

However the last couple of days have seen people thronging to the races which is good to see .

ADGE you have returned from your betting day but as usual have failed to say why my statement that 98% of punters are losing punters and as such would be better off on course betting into the exchange than betting with you on course guys is (according to you) a dream world

hello olias , yes enjoyed a good winning day in the sunshine.
100% of on course punters have telephones these days [ although illegal in the betting ring ] all courses have had 3g connection with most servers and good reception so all can compare our price with exchanges before making a decision who to bet with
leaving out most Saturdays , bank holidays and festival days you seem surprised that most are better with the course books.
a good number bet favourites. as we continue to pricematch exchanges these are better off with on course books
if you back outsiders win only [ above 10/1 ] you are generally better with an exchange
if you back each way [ as 33% of punters do ] in 8-10 runner maidens or 16-20 runner handicaps [ watch for the bookmaker terms ] you are much better with on course books
other each way races mostly better with an exchange
if you want fairly large each way bets the only choice is on course as an exchange has such poor liquidity.
why don't you come and say hello bringing your phone . we have nothing to be frightened of , many on here are just taken in by continuous advertising that eventually believe it. the dream world

for clarity can I add the poor liquidity is in the place market

adge, you are a good bloke but a good part of your last post is incorrect,

I am a layer at the moment of mostly middle pins and the prices I have to lay

are a good deal bigger than the prices available to back with the books.

I do agree that there is very little difference in the prices on short ones

between exchanges and bookies.  Best of luck.

adge,

Why aren't you at Yarmouth today?

It will be colossal!

there you are olias , the places to look are the second lines and the fringes not the bookmakers next to the bar
make the most of the weather , miprix , we all know this is a tough but interesting year

good question , mafia , i'm stuck at home waiting for a lawn mower to be delivered sometime today.
make the most of my absence though

miprix - you are comparing the best exchange price with the worst course price when you are doing that.  As previously explained, the prices transmitted to the shops bear no resemblance to the best prices available on the tracks.

wasnot, I am gobsmacked, I was not aware of that. Stay at home betting shop punters are being fleeced then.

Not being fleeced miprix, but they are not with the show getting best current odds.  The shops do other concessions though like BOG and 1/4 odds in all sorts of races that used to be 1/5th EW.

What is wrong is not comparing like with like.  The price displayed on ATR for exchanges could be available to £2.  The odds displayed for the course show is from bookies who will lay to lose £5k.  So really, ATR should only be showing an exchange price if it is available to lose £5k otherwise it is not a fair comparison.

wasnot, let us establish what you are posting, are you saying that the odds transmitted

from the courses are then not displayed in the shops? If that is the case the whole thing

is pointless.

No, the odds transmitted from the course are displayed in the shops, but it is the odds with a small sample of on course bookmakers, who are prepared to lay those odds to good money, usually £5k+.  These bookies do not usually have the biggest odds in the ring as they are liable to be asked for a lumpy bet.  You can always beat the show elsewhere in the ring.

If you were to transmit the biggest odds available on course to the shops then the shops wouldn't be able to make it pay.

wasnot, thanks for your explanation, it appears that the books who lay the biggest bets

dont lay the best prices.

That has always been the case miprix.  The biggest punters can only get on with a handful of bookies and have to accept marginally smaller odds in order to be accommodated.

wasnot, When I was in the game having it on the leading bookies were legendary, John Joyce, Jonnhy Ridley,

Joe Douglas, Les Boyle and many more, are there any of that ilk around these gays?

Johnny Ridley is still on the courses although I believe he has cut down on the number of tracks he attends now.  The others have retired and sold their pitches.  The on course margins are so cut throat now that anyone who has come and tried the 'cavalier' approach has not lasted long before they have done their money and left the ring.

OLIAS,ARE U STEVE CLAIRE

They should have a low retention on course tote, which the on course layers would have extreme trouble matching wrt betting percentage over time.
They should allow off course betting into it too via online etc
Bookmakers = money going out of the sport
tote = money staying in the sport

Tote = Betfred.

STOW,NO ONCOURSE BOOKS=NO RACING,I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE CROWD IF U COULD ONLY BET INTO CHRESTERBET OR THE TOTE,PUNTERS HAVE NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAD IT SO GOOD ONCOURSE BOOKIES,COME RACING

If the on course tote(Not Betfred) went 5% deduction all pools, with off course betting in to it, the on course bookies would largely dwindle away over time.

Stow, their fixed costs would be too high to make that pay even with massive turnover.  Its not like betfair which is operating in cyberspace/offshore paying very little to anyone.

any news on pitch renting

If all the courses joined together & the pool took off with off course bets placed online and by telephone, they'd have no trouble with costs. In the future we might have better facilities, lower racecourse admission costs and maybe better prize money as well.

a lot of "ifs" there stow
the one you missed is..if the regular racegoing public wanted it. to a man they would answer ..I want to see on my ticket what I get back when I win

Yes there are. The existing on course totes have always been quite popular with high retention. It's hard to imagine that they would not be more popular with much lower retention.
I'd also make it compulsory for all on course layers to display their overrounds on their electronic boards and ram it down the racegoers throat that the new on course tote deduction was 5%(equivalent to an overround of ca 105.5%) and the typical on course bookmaker bet to an average overround of ca 120%. I'd also further point out that profits made by the new on course tote went towards improved racecourse facilities and lower entry prices.

do punters care about prize money

Mostly no, but owners & trainers & Jockeys do. We all want to see better quality racing don't we?

Stow, I honestly think people who bet with the tote do so because they are scared of the betting ring or just for the convenience.  I don't think lower retention would entice people out of the betting ring.

Stow's overround point is a good one though. If it is to be believed that several on-course books are bigger than the machine on favs, then what % are their books?

and another point, amde previously but never answered, why aren't they knocked over by arbers?

it is amusing to read the perception that we bet to around 120% each race
the reality , stow , is that we bet to a maximum of 1% per runner if we are lucky and that is rare

there is no business for arbers , swift , after commission
factmachine and others for example offer 7/4 when a fav is 2.7 on the exchange. as you have to lay 2.72 the commission beats you

No profit for arbers but plenty of value for on course fav backers.

okay adge & wasnot I accept what you are saying

in which case I don't know what the issues are - if you can offer those prices and make it pay, then fine. I expect you will have plenty of custom.

Not a fav backer myself so I'll stick to the exchange

That's the beauty of having plenty of choice of betting outlets - pick what suits you best.  The problem with monopoly providers is you have to take whatever they decide to offer