Question mark over Black Caviar as steroids saga takes new twist

May 1, 2013 -- 9:14AM, metro john wrote:

It is claimed that the benefits may last for months,the art for the cheat is knowing how long they can use there drugs before a race date without it being detected,and it seems that that may not be a long period,Certify was tested positive.

Yeah, and certify hasn't raced since September.  May have stopped taking it 3 months ago and still had it in its system..
Takes near 3 months to get out of your system, and the benefits if used for performance is well gone by then.  Prolonged use merely makes your own system less efficient so you go downhill pretty quick if you stop using it after prolonged use.
Reality is its use for performance is very rare.  More call for it to speed up recovery and lessen time between campaigns.  Simple as that.
Those who think the use is widespread and creating freaks of nature really need to do some more reading.  They just sound ridiculous.

Benefits have been known too last for 6 months once use was stopped,BjT? the fact that a quarter of the stable was tested positive i find more than a worry,the fact that it was the  Godolphin(shake mo outfit) and very expensive ones too even more so.

"Those who think the use is widespread and creating freaks of nature really need to do some more reading.  They just sound ridiculous".

If you are only after a 2% edge they may only have to have small doses weeks before(who knows)?

I'm inclined to agree with BJT in the fact that no-one knows how widespread this is because testing was non-existent.

But I disagree with him about Black Caviar. There has to be more than a coincidence about the BHA testing and her retirement. It doesn't prove anything but Moody's previous statements only add the the possibility and that is sad. It's all very well BJT saying there is no proof and he is correct but that goes both ways.

We should demand to see the declarations made to Royal Ascot before BC and others from Australia have raced here. They have them but refuse to divulge them. Why?

Plus we must know what yards have been checked over recent years, since the Aussies started coming. I cannot believe this is an isolated incident. How can we rely upon recent results with this hanging the air?

So the cheat will know from practice the time period needed too elude the testers(trial and error over god knows how many years)?

May 1, 2013 -- 9:52AM, metro john wrote:

So the cheat will know from practice the time period needed too elude the testers(trial and error over god knows how many years)?

Yes, and you are talking about nearly 3 months for it to be both out of the system, and the benefits to be gone.  How many horses are even in work for 3 months to build up to a race, let alone be in work on steroids long enough for them to benefit, and then remain in work for another 3 months to keep the benefits waiting for it to get out of the system so you can even race, all the time the benefits wearing off, and your own system trying to retrain itself to work back at 100% again.

The suggestions are crazy...

Now you are talking nonsense Bjt!

May 1, 2013 -- 9:46AM, brigust1 wrote:

I'm inclined to agree with BJT in the fact that no-one knows how widespread this is because testing was non-existent. But I disagree with him about Black Caviar. There has to be more than a coincidence about the BHA testing and her retirement. It doesn't prove anything but Moody's previous statements only add the the possibility and that is sad. It's all very well BJT saying there is no proof and he is correct but that goes both ways. We should demand to see the declarations made to Royal Ascot before BC and others from Australia have raced here. They have them but refuse to divulge them. Why?Plus we must know what yards have been checked over recent years, since the Aussies started coming. I cannot believe this is an isolated incident. How can we rely upon recent results with this hanging the air?

Why does there need to be more than a coincedence?  Moody stated when she went back into work after Ascot that if she would be bought back it would simply be for a 3 run campaign to say goodbye to the eastern states.
She came back, ran 3 more times, at least 1 of those times was a free entry for the last time she would be seen racing.
Retirement has been on the cards for a long time, and it was planned.

May 1, 2013 -- 10:04AM, metro john wrote:

Now you are talking nonsense Bjt!

In what way?
Explain to me exactly what happens to the body when using, how long it lasts, how long to recover from using, how long til it gets out of the system, etc etc...

For you to claim I am talking nonsense, I am sure you must therefore know?  Or are you just making the typical "you are wrong" statement to cover for the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...

There is not much evidence out there,it is mixed,i am no expert i only give my opinion on the written evidence out there,the cheats will know more than me or you,why do you claim to be a expert,why do you defend?

I make no comment relating too Black caviar other than i think she was great!

I don't claim to be an expert at all.  What I have read is what I have stated.  You haven't stated anything at all.

In what way am I talking nonsense?

Does it not stand to reason that for the period it takes to get out of the system, the horse needs to remain in work until such time they are "clear" before they can even go to race?

To benefit in the first place means you must be in heavy work.  To keep those benefits, you must remain in work til it is out of your system.

Do you really think a 4 week steroid program, 8 weeks in the paddock, and then 3 weeks in work gives any advantages in regards to speed/stamina? 
It helps speed up injuries, shortens spell times.  Simple as that.

Otherwise, prove exactly what it does.


metro john • May 1, 2013 10:08 AM BST
I make no comment relating too Black caviar other than i think she was great!

The post you commented on had nothing to do with BC, so why bring her up in defense of what you said?

I am not saying BC was given steroids but even you BJT have to admit this is bad publicity for the mare. The timing and the outspoken nature of her trainer only add fuel to the flames. We, horse racing fans, can do without this type of thing in racing and I do believe this is not merely a coincidence not by any stretch.

May 1, 2013 -- 10:12AM, brigust1 wrote:

I am not saying BC was given steroids but even you BJT have to admit this is bad publicity for the mare. The timing and the outspoken nature of her trainer only add fuel to the flames. We, horse racing fans, can do without this type of thing in racing and I do believe this is not merely a coincidence not by any stretch.

Yes, but publicity is just that.  It is people with no valid reason to have an opinion creating drama to sell papers, make a name for themself, etc etc.

These rules haven't changed recently.  They have always been there.  The BHA have known, we have known, they are open for all to know.

When somebody comes out with facts, I will listen.  Until then, all I have seen is an article stating that Godolphin would be ok under our rules, and a forum full of patriotic fools claiming that Australian racing is just horses "eating steroids for breakfast lunch and tea".
Not one person has shown what benefits, how long, damage done, or even if anybody in Australia has even used steroids. 
I know a few have, it is obvious because that is what is given for sickness, weakness, injuries, etc..  But not one person, has even proven that 1 trainer in Australia has even used steroids for performance benefits.

So why is that?

It is all hearsay, and uneducated people merely trying to wind others up.


In regards to your comment about the BHA and releasing her paperwork, there is no valid reason to warrant it so they have every right to withhold it.  It is really nobodies business, unless of course she has been "treated" with it, and they let her race regardless, allowing her to break the rules.  And if that is the case, she hasn't broken anything, because she applied to race, gave up the facts, and was allowed to race.

In regards to her run in Ascot, her campaign leading up to it was:
8/10
22/10
5/11
27/1
11/2
18/2
28/4
12/5
and then of course 23/6 in Ascot.
14 days
14 days
77 days
15 days
7 days
69 days
14 days

Given how long it takes to get out of the system, there is no time in there she could have possibly had anything.  And no way in hell a horse that only runs on steroids can run a campaign like that clean.
IF she had anything, which I don't believe, it must have been pre August of 2011, as that is the only possible way she could test clean on all of those dates.

That was her 9th start in 8 months, and it was across the other side of the world.  But I guess her campaign had nothing to do with her performance.... 

metro john • May 1, 2013 9:04 AM BST
Agree with megsy,just because they allow it in Australia does not make it right.


metro john • May 1, 2013 9:14 AM BST
It is claimed that the benefits may last for months,the art for the cheat is knowing how long they can use there drugs before a race date without it being detected,and it seems that that may not be a long period,Certify was tested positive.

These were my opening comments before you saw fit too ridicule what part of that do you not like?

So your scientific proof is that it not be a long period for it to get out of your system but the benefits last for months?

I counter that by saying Certify has been off for nearly 7 months.  It may be still in the system from December, by your reckoning any benefits would be gone.

You want to tell somebody about nonsense, then at least have something to back it up.
There is nothing at all scientific about this thread, just mudslinging and accusations based on absolute zero.

The fact that Certify was tested positive, and entered to run in a minor classic in just a few weeks, does suggest too me,that the period that the cheats are leaving off the drugs, is a much shorter one than most of the written reports on the drugs would maybe suggest?

So your argument bjt, seems to be that steroids aren't much use and don't help a horses performance - is a speedier recovery from injury and shorter training times to ready a horse not improving it's performance, esp if that horse is fragile and doesn't take much training - sore joints or muscular problems for eg? Why do pretty much all Aussie trainers support their use if they aren't much use to better a horse?
It is strange to gloat at 'the biggest stable in the UK cheating' but in the same breath saying that the use of the same drugs is widespread in Aus racing, they don't do much and their use isn't a problem.

May 1, 2013 -- 10:36AM, metro john wrote:

The fact that Certify was tested positive, and entered to run in a minor classic in just a few weeks, does suggest too me,that the period that the cheats are leaving off the drugs, is a much shorter one than most of the written reports on the drugs would maybe suggest?

How?
All we know is it was a positive test.  We don't know levels.

For example:
THC stays in your system for around 30 days, so if you were drug tested and smoked 2 days ago, you would test positive.  In your argument, you would state that because you smoked 2 days ago and were getting tested today, must mean that it gets out of your system in around 2 days so you were unlucky?

Just because Certify tested positive a few weeks out from racing, does not prove when she took it.  It merely means it is still in the system. 
It may be still there from when she was a yearling given your drug testing procedure.  And if that is the case, then all this rubbish talk is based on crap.

I am not suggesting it is that long at all, I am suggesting it is about 6-12 weeks depending on which one we are talking about.

To test positive so close to an event,would seem too be pushing it somewhat? quantities is unknown I agree,only the cheat with experience would know for sure(or the untouchables who work for the very wealthy?)

Here is an interesting article for you all......

BHA will not break down 2012 drug test figures for Godolphin
• Testing continues of horses at Mahmood al-Zarooni yard
• Only 600-700 out-of-competition tests were carried out in 2012
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Owen Gibson
The Guardian, Friday 26 April 2013 19.46 BST

Certify, one of 15 horses from the Mahmood al-Zarooni stable banned for use of anabolic steroids, passed two tests in 2012. Photograph: PA
The British Horseracing Authority has refused to divulge how many Godolphin horses have been tested for banned substances in the past two years, despite this week banning 15 of the stable's horses for six months and effectively casting the shamed trainer Mahmood al-Zarooni from the sport.

While the BHA publishes figures showing how many raceday tests have been carried out in each calendar year, it said it would not break down the figures any further despite the shadow hanging over the world's biggest bloodstock operation.

It is understood that Certify, the winter favourite for the 1,000 Guineas who was one of 15 horses banned, after being given anabolic steroids by Zarooni, was tested twice last year and was clean both times.

The BHA also confirmed that both Godolphin yards in Newmarket – one under the aegis of Zarooni and the other under Saeed Bin Suroor – had been visited for "in training" testing in the past "few years" and no horses had tested positive.

The sport's governing body also said it was unrealistic to expect the winner of every race to be tested – hence it was inevitable that not every Godolphin winner would have been tested during the past two years. "We test horses from every race but not always the winner," said a BHA spokesman. "What I can say is that the winner of every major race almost certainly would have been tested."

The BHA's figures show that of 90,174 runners in 2012, it conducted 7,182 raceday tests – 14 of which were positive. It has pointed to those figures as evidence that racing does not have an endemic problem. Yet only 600-700 out-of-competition tests were carried out in 2012 as part of the BHA's "testing in training" sampling programme. Again, it would not break down where these tests were targeted.

"There could be a number of reasons why a yard could be idenitified for testing in training but we do not disclose the strategy for this," said the BHA.

In non-equine sport the direction of travel has been towards increased out-of-competition testing at short notice, leading to the development of the World Anti-Doping Agency's "wherebouts" programme.

The BHA said it was too early to say whether or not its out-of-competition testing regime would be improved as a result of the scandal, pointing instead to the statement by Paul Bittar, its chief executive, in the wake of the ruling on Thursday that it would "identify further areas for consideration" to be incorporated into its sampling strategy.

The BHA is now testing the remaining horses (around 150 in number) at Zarooni's Moulton Paddocks yard. However, the horses in Bin Suroor's stable, where the rest of Godolphin's 300-plus horses are trained, will not be tested.

The case has highlighted the inconsistencies in the approach to drugs taken by the various racing jurisdictions around the world with the BHA's so-called "zero tolerance" stance, which bans the use of steroids in races and training, far from standard. As racing becomes more international, those inconsistencies are likely to be thrown into sharper relief and, unlike other sports, there is no global harmonised code.

In Australia it is legal to use steroids in training and in Dubai it is legal to administer steroids before a horse goes into training. In the US steroids have been routinely used since the 1960s and they remain legal for use in training in most states.

While Bittar's statement on Thursday said that the BHA would raise the issue again with its international counterparts, on Friday he said it was unlikely that Australia would change its rules and admitted that Britain was unlikely to do anything that would force it to do so.

"It's unlikely that will happen but even though the rules in Australia are different from Britain, and we might take a view that we're comfortable with our rules and they're the best in world, we have to respect that the way horses are trained and the way they are treated in their home jurisdictions is under the auspices of those rules," he said.

"If those horses come here, they will be drug-tested, either post-race or in the lead-up to the race, and the drugs may well have cleared the system. In that case it seems a slight anomaly but I don't think it would ever shift us to a position where we stop overseas horses coming in."

A spokesman for Ascot, at the forefront of trying to encourage big-name horses from overseas to race in the UK over recent years, said it was "becoming a massive issue" and something the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities should put "as a No1 priority for discussion".

But he said the course would continue to try to attract horses from abroad. "As long as everyone is operating within the rules, there is no reason not to encourage horses to travel," he said.

"Just because Certify tested positive a few weeks out from racing, does not prove when she took it.  It merely means it is still in the system. 
It may be still there from when she was a yearling given your drug testing procedure.  And if that is the case, then all this rubbish talk is based on crap".

The reason BjT that we have a list of banned substances in racing is too stop the cheats (they know the rules and  were caught),and for one am very happy that the stewards and testers did there job.If you want too defend or make lite of the subject,that is up too you.

Why is that funny?  Did you read the article? 

I will point out a few interesting parts of it.......


The BHA also confirmed that both Godolphin yards in Newmarket – one under the aegis of Zarooni and the other under Saeed Bin Suroor – had been visited for "in training" testing in the past "few years" and no horses had tested positive.

Only 600-700 out-of-competition tests were carried out in 2012

The sport's governing body also said it was unrealistic to expect the winner of every race to be tested – hence it was inevitable that not every Godolphin winner would have been tested during the past two years.


Yet only 600-700 out-of-competition tests were carried out in 2012 as part of the BHA's "testing in training" sampling programme.
Samping programme?  Interesting.  So it only just started last year and only tested 600 horses out of 91,000 runners?


Considering this out of competition testing is very new in England, to have 25% of the biggest stable in the world testing positive to steroid use, is a big fcuking deal.


In regards to how long the benefits last, I point you to this:
The British Horseracing Authority has refused to divulge how many Godolphin horses have been tested for banned substances in the past two years, despite this week banning 15 of the stable's horses for six months and effectively casting the shamed trainer Mahmood al-Zarooni from the sport.

The horses in question, are allowed to race again in 6 months, by the organisation that suggests that any drug use will help performance.
Well, obviously the effects don't last for very long if they are allowed to compete again this year.

Compare Britain to Australia:
Britain:
Only 600-700 out-of-competition tests were carried out in 2012
The sport's governing body also said it was unrealistic to expect the winner of every race to be tested – hence it was inevitable that not every Godolphin winner would have been tested during the past two years. "We test horses from every race but not always the winner," said a BHA spokesman.

Australia:
"Currently, we do post-race (urine) testing of about 4500 horses each year and aim to lift that to 6500 over the next 12 months. We test every winner and every horse that performs poorly or not up to expectation. We also do 6000 pre-race blood tests each year. In a metropolitan Saturday meeting, we would pre-race between five and seven horses in each race."

And you know the funny thing about that quote where we test that many horses and EVERY winner of EVERY RACE?

That was from 2004.

And you guys only started testing out of competition last year?

You guys are a fcuking joke with all these ridiculous threads about drugs in Australian racing.  Have a look in your own backyard.

Here,here Bjt,we have agreement!

Macheted up to the eyeballs imo bet part of the deal was...we'll come to Ascot providing you don't test us...good job it was on it or it would have been beaten 100 lengths

Macheted up to the eyeballs imo bet part of the deal was...we'll come to Ascot providing you don't test us...good job it was on it or it would have been beaten 100 lengths

I can say that again

Soft ground and Travel i believe enough of a worry for Black caviar,and i think you lot trying too put a dark cloud on a fantastic career is stupid,she was never tested positive(she is innocent) lets not distract people from the real subject,i expected the press(gravy train) too do this not people on this forum.

lets not distract people from the real subject,i expected the press(gravy train) too do this not people on this forum.

Metro - of course she hasn't tested positive, the point (and it is wider than BC) is that she may well have taken steroids perfectly legally and with no comeback for connections who, whether she has taken them or not, have done nothing wrong. I've said before, not a problem if she's racing against other horses that have taken the same drugs (tbh an aussie trainer would have to be pretty dumb to get caught) but it obv is for international racing. Would Ascot have bent over backwards to 'entice' her over here if it was known she has taken steroids - legally or otherwise? I just think there needs to be a level playing field for group 1 international racing - be that in Aussie, Dubai, USA or wherever.

May 1, 2013 -- 11:24AM, Anaglogs Daughter wrote:

Macheted up to the eyeballs imo bet part of the deal was...we'll come to Ascot providing you don't test us...good job it was on it or it would have been beaten 100 lengths

I believe it was reported she was tested before the race, after the race, and 8 other occassions  over the preceding 8 months, at the very least.

Fair to suggest she was tested more than most of your stables, and clean every time.

She was tested the day before, 41 days before that, 14 days before that, 69 days before that, 7 days before that, 15 days before that, 77 days before that, 14 days before that, 14 days before that
THAT WE KNOW OF.

But then, don't let the truth get in the way....

May 1, 2013 -- 11:44AM, spyker wrote:

Metro - of course she hasn't tested positive, the point (and it is wider than BC) is that she may well have taken steroids perfectly legally and with no comeback for connections who, whether she has taken them or not, have done nothing wrong. I've said before, not a problem if she's racing against other horses that have taken the same drugs (tbh an aussie trainer would have to be pretty dumb to get caught) but it obv is for international racing. Would Ascot have bent over backwards to 'entice' her over here if it was known she has taken steroids - legally or otherwise? I just think there needs to be a level playing field for group 1 international racing - be that in Aussie, Dubai, USA or wherever.

Given that Godolphins horses are banned for 6 months, it is the BHAs opinion that benefits are long gone by then, and that it is impossible for her to have taken anything since about August 2011 given the constant testing she received in the 8 months leading to Ascot, it is pretty certain that there is ZERO reason for any of you to complain about ****.

are you Australian bjt?

yes.  Why?

Not to mention spyker, even if she was on a severe steroid program leading up to Ascot, there is every chance she wasn't on as much as the rest of the horses running around at Ascot.

FACT

I would never have guessed.

BTW Black Caviar was a fantastic horse but............

Not to mention spyker, even if she was on a severe steroid program leading up to Ascot, there is every chance she wasn't on as much as the rest of the horses running around at Ascot.

FACT

Proof please - no conjecture and guesswork on this thread please - there is a poster lurking that is very hot on people making it up as they go along  and he will break you!

Come to the conclusion after reading this thread that someone is going around spiking the Aussies drinks, some absolute ball locks be wrote here during the night.

people saying "it's not fair she beat horses at Ascot who aren't drugged like she was"

what about Soul?

spyker • May 1, 2013 12:03 PM BST
Not to mention spyker, even if she was on a severe steroid program leading up to Ascot, there is every chance she wasn't on as much as the rest of the horses running around at Ascot.

FACT

Proof please - no conjecture and guesswork on this thread please - there is a poster lurking that is very hot on people making it up as they go along  and he will break you!

Prove to me she was drugged then you can start throwing around your wild claims and accusations, all good when it suits you but you won't have a bar of it when it goes against you, double standards I believe is the term oh and by the way, never ****g bring my family into an online discussion you dirt piece of human.

Go to bed, your drunk

is that all you got? ffs man, you have to do better

Ridding the world of steroid menace is a complex issue

While Hong Kong has little tolerance, finding a level playing field will take some doing

Alan Aitken South hinaa Morning Post
alan.aitken@scmp.com

The events of last week in England involving trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni and anabolic steroids is clearly something that will be occupying racing's top administrators for some time. Harmonisation of rules even in respect of the (relatively) simpler areas like protests have proved difficult, but those are pebbles when stood against the monolithic obstruction of the different management of steroids issues in different jurisdictions along the road to a level playing field.

In the immediate aftermath of the Al Zarooni findings, leading British trainer Roger Charlton was the one to voice a view doubtless held by other trainers there regarding the use of steroids with Australian sprinters which have cleaned up Royal Ascot sprints in the last decade or so.

British trainers aren't permitted to use steroids without breaching their rules but Australian trainers would be within the rules training up their horses at home with steroids, as they are presented at Ascot drug free on race day.

There have long been mutterings from European trainers about what goes on in Dubai, with certain horses that have emerged from there and not been able to take elsewhere what seemed invincible talents.

That's just three jurisdictions - and don't even think about the United States. Actually, if there is to be any hope of getting everyone on the same page, the first step would be to leave the US out of discussions altogether.

US racing seems to have no inclination to address even the concept of drug-free racing, let alone implementation, so even having it at the table would put a brake on the whole process before it starts.

Issues on steroid use go beyond the therapeutic argument or the horses in-or-out-of-training argument and reaches to areas beyond the actual athletics involved in races, because steroids can do so many things.

Steroids occur naturally in horses as hormones but can be added artificially and they can control, boost and accelerate so many of the normal bodily functions from increasing appetite to creating muscle to assisting healing or recovery or withstanding injury, and so on and so on.

Hands up any owner or trainer who bought a horse off a barrier trial somewhere or bought a yearling - and that includes anywhere, even Britain - and found it shrunk in the wash when he or she got it home.

Ah, yes. A sea of hands, as we suspected.

The issue goes to the residual worth or qualities of stallions or broodmares which may have spent their racing careers in jurisdictions where steroids are permitted in some fashion or another.

Winfried Engelbrecht-Bresges, in his role as vice-chairman of the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities (IFHA), delivered a clear message on Sunday: whatever discussions are undertaken and conclusions emerge on steroids, the first target has to be the anabolics that are used to inflate horses like bodybuilders. Their purpose is performance enhancement, whatever else they might be able to do, and perhaps the only option for the world's ruling body will be to make even possession of them punishable under the rules, never mind their use.

That probably isn't a black and white issue either - few things are - but there are more than 50 shades in the discussions that come after that.

There are other types of steroids, the kind permitted here in joint injections that have caused so much angst between trainers and vets this season, for example.

There will probably be jurisdictions that will argue about whether horses should be injected to ease joint problems like that during a racing campaign, while others will argue that horse welfare is served with therapeutic used of certain types of steroid. Or that horse racing will collapse without them.

The Al Zarooni case was said to have opened a can of worms, but it is no ordinary can and these are worms like anacondas.

Prove to me she was drugged then you can start throwing around your wild claims and accusations, all good when it suits you but you won't have a bar of it when it goes against you, double standards I believe is the term oh and by the way, never ****g bring my family into an online discussion you dirt piece of human.

Ahh - up to your usual standard I see Sc - please point me to my posts where i have been anything other than unreasonable on this issue and made any claims (wild or not) abut BC or any other Aussie horse. BTW - you're allowed to say what you want and insult how you like but others aren't? I've not even bothered reading that thread (or the aussie forum) since as your replies simply aren't worth replying to - well unless you accuse me of things i haven't done and it helps expose you as the liar and fool that you so obv are
Please search away sc search away.....

In the immediate aftermath of the Al Zarooni findings, leading British trainer Roger Charlton was the one to voice a view doubtless held by other trainers there regarding the use of steroids with Australian sprinters which have cleaned up Royal Ascot sprints in the last decade or so.

British trainers aren't permitted to use steroids without breaching their rules but Australian trainers would be within the rules training up their horses at home with steroids, as they are presented at Ascot drug free on race day.

There have long been mutterings from European trainers about what goes on in Dubai, with certain horses that have emerged from there and not been able to take elsewhere what seemed invincible talents.

lol..  So the steroids they use in Dubai wear off at the border, but the steroids we use help us world wide?  Oh dear...
If steroid use was so beneficial, I am sure that horses in Dubai could easily run a campaign in "drug free" England and clean up....

"Training up their horses with steroids"......
Clearly an unbiased view of the subject.   A must inclusion for all threads, not only the ones regarding drugs in racing....


What hope do you really have if this is the kind of baloney you subscribe to?

spyker 27 Apr 13 09:55
Sc why do you post on here? You bring nothing to any 'discussion' you get involved in and ruin any chance of any sort of debate. You display no knowledge of anything ever and just insult people you take a dislike to. Other forum contributers obv humour you and you feed off it like algae.
I have not been anti Aus in anything i have said yet you still write the tosh you do. If you fecked off for a month the aussie forum might go back to being worth a read and the people that left a while ago might come back. Do everyone a favour and go and post your drivel on whatever other forums you pollute.
I imagine you've behaved as you do on here throughout your life and now realise that you are lonely and are going to get lonelier as you get older. You've driven anybody that has cared for you away, you have a terrible relationship with your kids (though everybody pretends it's fine) and your wife hates you. This and other forums are the only places left where you still feel 'the boss' - I pity you i really do. Now like i said feck off, go to your ibuprofen thread as that is just about your level.



that doesn't expose me, that exposes you.

I am a fair enough kind of guy, sure I have a little fun and push a few boundaries but I would never EVER make it so personal to bring my family into it

as I said the other day it says more about you then it does about me.

But you're the forum daddy sc who has us pommies running for cover - why let what an insignificant oik such as myself affect you so much? I apologise to your wife and kids  - there is obv no truth in what i said.........

before this debacle ,I had no idea aus,Dubai ,could legaly use steroids out of training,I can see now why British trainers moan like hell when overseas horses run UK

She came back, ran 3 more times, at least 1 of those times was a free entry for the last time she would be seen racing.
Retirement has been on the cards for a long time, and it was planned.

Was it feck planned.

Co-owner Neil Werrett admitted he did not know last Saturday's race at Randwick would be Black Caviar's swansong.

"I didn't know Saturday was her last run," Werrett said. "I thought she would be racing again."

Asked if Black Caviar had ever been given steriods, Moody told the Melbourne Herald Sun: "Nil. Steroids increase bulk. Black Caviar was a huge mare, from the day she was born. It would have been absolutely counter-productive.

"out of training" is being used to confuse with " off course" lets be clear "out of training" means not registered imo and hence a horse "out of training" in the uk could be given anything its owner wanted to give it ,it would not come under BHA ect jurisdiction ,the cart horse down at the milk yard is "out of training" .

"on course"  "off course" if its registered as in training it cant be given steroids ,if its out of training in the uk it can be given anything imo .

do the rules of the BHA state a horse can not race under rules of racing if at any time IN ITS LIFE it has been administered a banned substance under the rules of "racing" i very much doubt it .

what constitutes "out of training " in  the diff countries uk/aus/uae/ire/usa ect ?

should mean not registered as in training and under the jurisdiction of the racing authorities ,it should not be used as "off racecourse "  imo ....stand to be corrected

Castiron   
You obviously have little idea how steriods work.

So why don't you tell me what you know and then I'll tell you what I do know?

BJT    
So how exactly do you know the stats on how many European horses race on drugs in America?

And they are actually breaking the rules.  You know the ones that say European horses aren't allowed drugs in training or spelling.  Whether they do them off shore is really irrelevant.

Unless you are suggesting you have no issue with European horses to spell overseas and receive a steroid training regime for their upcoming European races?

I don't but I doubt Moody does either but my point was some raced on drugs and some didn't and that's all anyone needs to know.

Smoking marijuana in this country is illegal but isn't in other places so if I go over there and smoke some, I don't expect to have the police waiting for me at the airport to arrest me once I get off the plane. Like I said, when in Rome and all that, you go by the rules of where you are, otherwise foreign jockeys would be coming over here and using their whip 101 times and then claim it's OK where they come from.

megsy
maybe the 2011 St James's Palace Stakes was frankels true running, maybe he was on jellybeans uh?? you are so full of it, take a newspaper with you next time your sitting down  and read the funnies, you certaintly aint getting knowledge reading the racing pages.

english racing is more or less had it, what now since your cotton wool kids gone into retirement. you have nothing, absolute nothing, except drug cheating trainers and others who whinge when beaten inside their own little turf.

LOL....I should have known it was beyond you to be able to work out the not to subtle differences between BC's Jubilee run and Frankel's SJP, so let me see if I can help you a little here.

BC didn't run her race that different to most of her others, it's not as if she blasted out from the off and was treading water at the line or sat way out the back in last place and then only just got up on the line or that she kicked at full pace from a fully 4f out, like I said, she just basically ran her usual race of being generally well placed throughout the race and starting to quicken around the 2f mark.

Frankel in the SJP went full pelt for 4f of the mile to try to chase down his pacemaker when his jockey was worried it had gone off far fast after not being able to get to the lead in the 2000gns. If BC kicked 4f out in a 6f race let alone a mile one she would be treading water too but according to you horses do there fastest sectionals in the final furlong and aren't actually slowing compared to a couple of furlongs before that and that is totally wrong.

Here's a clue too of why you shouldn't judge Frankel on the SJP run alone and that's because he kicked so fast and early that that was his second smallest winning margin ever (the first being on debut when beating Nathaniel) and was only 2¼L in front of Excelebration that day despite previously having beaten that horse 4L at only 7f earlier and since the SJP has also beaten him 4L, 5L and 11L at a mile.

I don't really know why I bother wasting my time educating you as you will only either bury your head in the sand and ignore these facts or will have trouble retaining them and is why I've not bothered again to correct you on other things that you have claimed I have said that I haven't because you will only repeated the claim again anyway.

Thank feck they are fast asleep the whining Aussies

Godolphin steroids fallout will not stop Australians at Royal Ascot

• Half-brother to Black Caviar on course to travel
• Track will continue to pay some travelling costs


Greg Wood at Ascot The Guardian, Wednesday 1 May 2013
@Greg_Wood_

Senior executives here said that the course will continue to subsidise the travelling costs of horses from around the world to enable them to race at the track, regardless of the drugs policies in operation in their native jurisdictions. "It's a rule thing," Nick Smith, Ascot's head of international racing said. "We don't make the rules, we couldn't stop them coming and as long as they are complying with the rules of racing, that's fine."

At least two runners are expected to travel to next month's Royal meeting at Ascot from Australia, where anabolic steroids can be used to improve the condition of racehorses as long as the drug clears their system by the time of a race. All Too Hard, a half-brother to the brilliant Black Caviar, the winner of the Golden Jubilee Stakes at last year's Royal meeting, is expected to contest the Queen Anne Stakes, while Shamexpress is entered in the King's Stand Stakes.

"My guess would be that if we weren't, for instance, paying a travel allowance, they would come anyway," Smith said. "It's now an established fact in international racing that that happens. No one comes because of the travel allowance, it doesn't even cover the trip, or half the trip. It's not it's all of a sudden that it's been found out that steroids are sometimes used in Australia, it's common knowledge. I understand that it's in the public eye now, but nothing has changed, our policies haven't changed.

"We carry on as normal, business as usual. This is the international racecourse for Europe, and if they co-operate and run within the British rules of racing, they will be welcome."

International rules on the use of anabolic steroids in racing have come under intense scrutiny since it emerged last week that Mahmood al-Zarooni, the former trainer in charge of Godolphin's Moulton Paddocks stable in Newmarket, had administered the performance-enhancing drugs to 15 of his horses.

Zarooni, who claimed to be unaware of Britain's zero-tolerance policy on anabolics, was banned from racing for eight years by the British Horseracing Authority's disciplinary panel last Thursday, but would not have faced any sanctions in Australia, America or his native Dubai, where anabolics can be used outside competition.

Paul Bittar, the chief executive of the BHA, has expressed hope that the fallout from the Zarooni scandal will persuade international racing authorities that the variance in doping rules must be addressed. The chance that there will be any imminent standardisation of the regulations appears remote, however. "It's not up to us what the rules are, that's a matter for the BHA," Charles Barnett, Ascot's chief executive, said. "They do the rules, we try to get horses here because they want to run and punters want to see them, and we do the promotion."

The track also remains confident that an Australian winner at next month's Royal meeting will be warmly received by the spectators in the immense grandstand. "We're not worried at all," Smith said. "On the day, it will be absolutely fine."

Ascot's commitment to international competition came on the same day as a statement from Peter Moody, the former trainer of Black Caviar, that she had never been given steroids. "Nil," Moody said when asked if Black Caviar had ever received the drug.

"Steroids increase bulk. Black Caviar was a huge mare, from the day she was born. It would have been absolutely counter-productive."

Moody added that Black Caviar had been dope-tested shortly after arriving in Britain on 7 June last year, and again a few days before her victory at Ascot on 23 June, returning a clean test on both occasions.

The Queen's colours could be aboard one of the favourites for the Gold Cup at next month's Royal meeting, following the victory of Estimate in the Group Three Sagaro Stakes, the feature race on Wednesday's card.

The four-year-old filly, who took the two-mile Queen's Vase at the 2012 Royal meeting, started favourite and readily went clear of her field in the closing stages.

"That was great, very exciting," John Warren, the Queen's bloodstock advisor, said after the race. "I asked Ryan Moore [Estimate's jockey] whether she would stay another half-mile and he said 'we won't know until we try'.

"Whatever runs in the Gold Cup, they are not bred to do it but she has got every chance as her pedigree is all stamina."

I can't believe that this thread is still alive......AD you are a master of this Piscary.....

I have tried to explain to BJ the Bluffer and his compatriots/aliases in the simplest possible terms what Anabolic steroids are and yet still they seem determined to defend the

indefensible....and so alas i shall have to respect their right to be stupid.... ignorance is apparently bliss after all.

it's all mindless bullshit, another thing you can go around accusing our horses of doing, the rules are different but you can't prove who is and isn't injecting their animals, therefore you can't take away the things she achieved all because of the rules associated with our racing

I don't see people belittling ZENYATTA's feats or GOLDIKOVA's feats, wonder why

btw, if SHAMEXPRESS comes to your back end paddock in Ascot and wins, well nothing more proven could be said about the quality of Black Caviar

AD is the master of 1 thing only, the c0ck.

Frankl the greatest flat horse of all time not as much as an Aspirin, lean and slick. BC as big as a Shire horse and balls bigger then Bullock ...yep indeed she was never giving anything

greatest of all time? not even listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_horses

I know what you like to give, you dirty little c0ckmaster.

You'd want to be pretty naive to think BC was never given a few courses of steroids when you consider its completely legal to do so, all the other aussie trainers are doing it so you keep up with the Joneses if you don't want to fall behind, but it would also be naive to think (amidst the recent Godolphin and Butler controversies) that many top horses in Britain and Ireland never received certain medications when in training but due to lax testing procedures by the BHA many of them were never caught?.

Anaglogs relaxing

Anaglogs in dress ups

Anaglogs having a dummy spit because he feels inferior to aussies

Three things Australian more famous up in the northern hemisphere then Black Caviar . . A 80 YEAR OLD MAN THAT DRESSES UP AS A WOMAN, AN 83 YEAR OLD WHOM IS HELPING POLICE WITH THEIR ENQUIRIES do you get the picture yet . . And Watered down larger ...strewth

family portrait of Anaglogs

May 1, 2013 -- 10:23PM, silvergreaser wrote:

You'd want to be pretty naive to think BC was never given a few courses of steroids when you consider its completely legal to do so, all the other aussie trainers are doing it so you keep up with the Joneses if you don't want to fall behind, but it would also be naive to think (amidst the recent Godolphin and Butler controversies) that many top horses in Britain and Ireland never received certain medications when in training but due to lax testing procedures by the BHA many of them were never caught?.

So you are stating that all trainers in Australia issue steroids to improve performance?  That is really how you want to make a statement?  rotflmfao

So you are stating that all trainers in Australia issue steroids to improve performance?

Obviously not all of them can afford them, but those that can, do.

the tendency for Australian trainers to geld colts meant horses needed an artificial replacement for natural hormones.

It is rare for colts to be gelded in Britain


usually a gelding is injected after his racing season has ended so he can thrive in the paddock, but most injections at administered into bone joints not muscles.

maybe rewilding was doped up to beat SYT? if you want to call it cheating.

It is rare for colts to be gelded in Britain

eh? Jeezus where do you get this stuff from

"My guess would be that if we weren't, for instance, paying a travel allowance, they would come anyway,"
"No one comes because of the travel allowance, it doesn't even cover the trip, or half the trip."

So Ascot are just throwing their money away with these payments then? And they are happy with this? If only they would spend it on heating the grandstand instead

mugsy • May 2, 2013 7:48 AM BST

'It is rare for colts to be gelded in Britain'............clueless as usual.

"Steroids increase bulk," Moody said.

"Black Caviar was a huge mare, from the day she was born.

I think Moody is the one on drugs

It's friday night down under so the boys are out clubbing in their special club 'no women allowed' all the chaps dancing around megsys handbag...So they'll be here about 2pm-3pm out of their minds on man love talking utter ball locks

it's thursday night mate

Friday morning

I have to work tomorrow I won't be getting knackered tonight unfortunately

Does the wimps down under not start their weekend on their phiss-weak larger till a Friday?... Tut tut tut no wonder they were lying all over the ground in Ascot after 4 hours drinking.

Work...hahaha...ye wouldn't work off the national grid

LOL....at ComingSecond for digging me out for using Wiki (even though I didn't) as a source for facts and then resorts to using it just because someone hasn't bothered to put Frankel on a list there of historical horses on it......I'm guessing the clue there is in the word historical whereas Frankel might be considered as contemporary.

I know Black Caviar was there and had I thought they were capable I'd even suspect someone from here edited her in just to make a point.

But an even bigger LOL goes to mugsy who just made himself look like a total d1ck with the claim that colts are rarely gelded in the UK? Did you get that from Wiki too?

Just about every male NH horse and plenty of other flat ones that might or might not go NH racing are gelded every season.

Drug twist in More Joyous racing feud

Mat Mackay, WWOS & AAP
http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8651778
07:30 AEST Thu May 2 2013

Racing stewards are reportedly investigating whether More Joyous, the horse at the centre of the row between John Singleton and the Waterhouse family, was injected with an anti-arthritic drug before racing last weekend.

Fairfax Media claims the mare was injected with pentosan polysulfate five days before the race and did not eat all her food that night, triggering concerns for her welfare.
The drug is legal and commonly used in racing to relieve pain and inflammation in horses’ joints.
It is usually administered in the neck, the area in which More Joyous later suffered soreness.
She was given antibiotics to treat that soreness.
The latest twist in the saga comes after retired jockey Allan Robinson said he was horrified by the public falling out of Singleton and trainer Gai Waterhouse that followed a phone call he made to the millionaire businessman over the condition of his horse.

Singleton has accused Waterhouse's son, the bookmaker Tom Waterhouse, of telling people the champion mare could not win the All Aged Stakes at Randwick last Saturday.

He has since withdrawn his stable of horses from Gai Waterhouse.

"I'm horrified," Robinson told Today Tonight on the Seven Network, referring to the fallout following the race when More Joyous finished seventh in a field of eight.

He defended Gai Waterhouse saying she would not let a horse run if it was not 100 per cent, but then pointed out that something must have been wrong, because More Joyous finished seventh.

When asked if he would do the same thing again, Robinson made a lengthy pause, before saying: "Should you let it lie? Don't know."

At a trackside inquiry on Saturday, Singleton refused to divulge the names of "trusted friends" who had told him Tom Waterhouse was saying there was a problem with More Joyous.

On Tuesday Singleton's friend and rugby league legend Andrew Johns released a statement dismissing claims Tom Waterhouse had tipped him off about the condition of More Joyous.

But on Wednesday night, Singleton broke his silence.

"Names have already been named so my reluctance to name names has been taken away by the names naming themselves," he told the Nine Network.

When asked if Johns and Robinson were those people, Singleton replied: "Yeah, they're both the people who rang me, yes."

Tom Waterhouse has denied the accusations and will front the reconvened inquiry next Monday.

It was revealed during Saturday's preliminary inquiry that More Joyous had been treated with antibiotics leading up to the All Aged but she had been cleared to run by two vets, including the one employed by Singleton

fu2king drug twist

get if right, know the story first before you post this crap !!

Anaglogs off to a rolf harris party

and for the record, who are the trainers being suspended or investigated?...ohh thats right, trainers from UK racing stables.

I think megsy has been gelded imo

For the record Mugsy the trainers are being suspended/investigated for doing something that is perfectly legal in Australia.....

The Thoroughbred ‏@thethoroughbred  19m 
Çhannel 9 claiming More Joyous seriously ill at Singo's property. Hope they are wrong.

By: This user is offline. megsy Date Joined: 01 Aug 11
Add contact | Send message When: 02 May 13 07:48 Joined: Date Joined: 01 Aug 11 | Topic/replies: 4,017 | Blogger: megsy's blog
the tendency for Australian trainers to geld colts meant horses needed an artificial replacement for natural hormones.

It is rare for colts to be gelded in Britain


my mistake, it should of read, rare for well bred colts to be gelded in Britain

my mistake, it should of read, rare for well bred colts to be gelded in Britain

If it is common for well bred colts to be gelded in Australia then a)I'm surprised b) if they are then Australians must be even more stupid than we give them credit for already.

Megsy,Black Fish Eggs is a mare,nobody has investigated or questioned her ovaries being removed and No Bollox steroids being administered to enhance performance. A bit like your Aussie Prime Ministers,no formal checks for sex or otherwise..........or Nationality?

FFS mate.........you have Welsh people in your Government...........must be the sheep.....no normal nation would have the Welsh making decisions...........even sheep care.

IMVHO of course.

it is because of the prizemoney that they are not gelded if they have any decent breeding in their blood in the UK, too big a risk imo

turn a no good horse into a good one by gelding it or send it to the barn knowing that it may not come good even if it is gelded

at least if it breeds you know what you will get

SC,no insult to you or anyone else intended.......apart from being gelded means..............NO FAMILY.

Matters not the blood lines,if a colt is useless or not very good,cutting its nuts off can make a difference.

The muppets on here seem to think breeding should mean leave the nuts intact,look at any Selling Hurdle race and you will find the cream of the crop in breeding terms.

yes I know what you are saying, gelding a horse does make it a better horse but it some circumstances the breeding is too good to take the risk that if it does not turn into a good runner.. you are left with nothing, after it is gelded it cannot breed, that is my point

Hay List is gelded and so was Takeover Target, 2 of our finest over the years but I am sure there is many more

second coming, the list is endless of australian champions of past years, era's being gelded.

manikato,schillachi,kingston town, tulloch, phar lap, northerly,saintly,might and power, vo rogue,super impose, dulcify, etc etc etc some im confident would match anything to race anywhere in the world on equal terms.

megsy

I know Tulloch is considered a freak, but to actually sire a few winners while being a gelding, takes him to another level.

So between megsy telling us colts don't get gelded that often in the UK and name checking a "gelding" that sired an Oaks winner, he had the front to try to mock me because I mistakenly thought a horse won a certain award twice instead of once. What next, telling us he's surprised that Desert Orchid didn't produce that many winning progeny too?

I know what I think makes which of us look the daftest anyway.

castiron, you are correct on tulloch, though he was a dud at stud, but eventually he was gelded and put to pasture

ima mug, keep taking your jelly beans c@ckbreathe

mistakenly my ass secondcoming put you straight on that one and you still f@ck up, stick to your wiki and racing post.

and your the guy who reckons english horses are more disadvantage to coming to australia than australian horses going to england

ohh and our to top sprints, the newmarket and lightning are run around a bend at monee valley,

LOL....how did I still fcuk up if I was put right on it?

It's you mugsy who has the problems retaining information and you've just proved the point there. If I make a mistake I'm not aware of and somebody corrects me then I don't make the same mistake again, not like you where I've had to explain to you the difference between "your" and "you're" at least a dozen times now and you still keep doing it, including in the post above......but then you do have retention problems in all ways other than the bullshit you come out with.......colts are rarely gelded in the UK ffs!

Again I can't really give a reply to things I haven't said so I'm afraid I can't really help you with your inaccurate claims that you are trying to attribute to me. I know exactly what I did say but what's the point of correcting you again for the 102nd time if you won't be able to retain that corrected information and still carry on spouting your b0ll0cks?

Plus it's also "two" and not "to"......not that I ever said they were the top two sprints anyway.

HTH

Oh and if someone has had to put me right then surely what they have put right was my mistake, therefore I mistakenly said something then didn't I? See if you can retain that one now too.