Why have betfair shares gone down in value ?

Well....dry.

Worldwide expansion scuppered in many areas by unwilling jurisdictions. New CEO has had to pull out of regions where they were knocking expensive heads against unyielding regulatory brick walls.

So where is the growth going to come from? The market clearly thinks they have no idea.

ALL 3 of your questions.

Chiefly because in my opinion they were far too high a price when floated.

It's knowing when to float that matters, they KNEW.

It was a unique exchange that couldn't lose money but they admitted the exchange model had failed when PC was brought in. Now it's just a glorified bookmaker with the home page taking you to fixed odds. A  10 a penny with huge overheads.

mmm... is my money safe here?

As safe as any bank in Cyprus

the future is purple

Look at how much the market is up compared to these shares in recent times.

A huge vote of confidence in the firm NOT.

andrew black will buy it back in a firesale, i will bet my house on it, and go back to core business, re-organise, and strip-out the bells and whistles.

hasnt got the money now manxy - hes put it into 'better' companies

heres one


Major Shareholders

The Company has 479,137,027 ordinary shares in issue, of which 56,673,333 are owned by a member of the Group and treated as treasury shares, resulting in a total of 422,463,694 voting shares.

As far as the Company is aware the percentage of voting shares not in public hands (for the purpose of the AIM rules) is approximately 40%.

The identity of the Company's significant shareholders (for the purpose of the AIM rules) and their percentage holding of voting shares are:
AVIVA PLC (and its subsidiaries)*     19.96%
ANDREW BLACK*     19.24%
J.M. FINN & CO. LTD*     4.98%**
THESIS ASSET MANAGEMENT*     4.88%
ROYAL LONDON ASSET MANAGEMENT*     4.83%
Mr D V PENMAN*     3.54%
LUDGATE ENVIRONMENTAL FUND*     3.28%

The Hydrodec Story

In the early 1990's an engineer had an idea. What if we can stop consuming oil and better use the resources we have without compromising quality and reliability? That idea has become Hydrodec Group plc.
2001     Hydrodec formed
2004     Hydrodec Group plc – IPO (AIM)
2006     Australia (Young) plant
2008     US (Canton) plant
2010     Japan – Hydrodec/Kobelco JV
2012     New management team

In 1992, the Australian power industry tasked the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) to find a way to remove hazardous cancer-causing PCBs from used transformer oil and restore the oil to a condition that met all international standards for new transformer oil.

The team’s commitment and perseverance paid off, and within eight years, their results not only met industry expectations, it exceeded them. CSIRO was not only able to remove the PCBs from the transformer oil, the product they developed often out-performed new oil. Moreover, unlike any other process in the world, they could refine the transformer oil an indefinite number of times, allowing utilities to reduce their reliance on new oil supplies without sacrificing quality or performance.

The technology was patented, and in 2001, Hydrodec was formed, with global rights to commercialise the technology and the knowledge behind it. Hydrodec collects used transformer oil and manufactures, markets and distributes SUPERFINE™ transformer oil and naphthenic base oil at their facilities in Young, NSW Australia and Canton, Ohio USA with plans to expand to more facilities in Japan. The Group has been listed on AIM, the Alternative Investment Market of the London Stock Exchange, since 2004.

Hydrodec Group is a public company with global ownership of patented know-how in the application of sustainable technology for the power, oil, petrochemical and hazardous waste industries and a commitment to creation of sustainable value for shareholders, communities, customers and partners alike.

They looked so good at one time

A great investment by Paul Roy's clients at £15!
Get what you can before they are utterly worthless.

Quite amazing that the product that completley changed the betting indusrty has had 50% of share value wiped and looked upon with disdain by its customers

Cant be many buisnesses that the better you do the worse of you will be

Once you are a Public Company it is all about "the Bottom Line".
Shares were vastly overpriced and can only go one way,imo.

they knew what the punters wanted and supplied it to them . It made them a fortune and had all the bookmakers running for cover. since they floated they forgot what made them successfull and are now embarking in a venture of copying what every other bookmaker does and force feeding the punters products they don't want. How could that possibly be a recipe for success ? I watched them grow and was very impressed with the way they were run.. since they floated  their attitude changed so much that  I now hope they get what they deserve...  go down the drain.. I would definitely not invest £1 in them .

would be good to see what the forum was saying about betfair when they first started up until they floated and implemented the premium charge.

perhapes betfair should look back and see how happy most punters were and the reason being was you could follow your dream of making gambling your living.

now if you opened a new account you could be paying 20% comm. in under a week.

so why would they attract new customers looks like they will just runit into the ground imo

and the reason being was you could follow your dream of making gambling your living.

The exchange model requires a plentiful supply of losers for this to be true. What if the losers got fed up and stopped playing?

thats the nub isnt it, all betting requires losers but betfair wont get enough impulse bettors atm...maybe new tech will change this but it looks like they aint gonna share them with us, as soon as the sports book was formed all of you should have en mass left

That's the problem with exchange betting in the long run imo. The losers have to pay both the exchange and the tens of thousands on the forum that were making a living on here before the PC. Losers all went skint years ago ( apart from me ). Sharks now eating themselves and Betfair picking up bigger pieces while they can.

So many on the thread that seem experts on the viability of a revolutionary betting exchanges future

so perhaps they should all be working  on the real exchange which beats a sporting exchange

for spivs, poor evaluational companies, investors with more money than sense and historically

proven track record for proving that greed can plunge the world into recession, by a cocked hat.

At a time when many so called clever investors were pumping cash into gold shares in desperation

from post credit crunch blues its hardly surprising that the get rich quick club dont understand

fairly new betting platforms when so many traditional betting firms have learned to screw customers

at a greater rate with a great help from poor legislation that fails to protect problem gambling on the streets of the UK.



In Hard times it is aways the poor and unemployed that make up the shortfalls, one way or another its

known as the pecking order...

Tony Calvin couldn't have put it better

my point was that you could dream of making it pay on here now you cannot so it is no different to any other bookie now

They (the management) perhaps made the mistake of many before them (others have done it because of arrogance, incompetence, inexperience etc - I don't know about Betfair's management team but if they were in Aero Systems, I'd take the boat) ... anyway, didn't do the obvious and stick to the knitting, i.e. focus on what you are good at, what your core competencies are, what your competitive edge is.
Will become a business school case study in a couple of years or so.

Paul Roy's company bought several millions worth before they were available to the public at £15,then ,a few days later ,they were on general release at £16.50 approx.Did his company offload at the higher price,and make an instant profit?Good business if he was allowed to,but also a snub to the general investors who bought at the higher price,as offloading such a big amount would have been responsible for helping push the price down.
  I am heavily in at £10,and have to sit back and wait,and wait,and wait.

You could red out, if they aint going up short term, put the money to better use.

Premium charge has caused 90% of Betfair's problems .

In contrast Paddy Power shares have more than doubled in price over the last 2 years http://www.stockopedia.co.uk/share-prices/paddy-power-LON:PAP/chart/

That's what is possible with good management building a solid brand. What ever you think of the bookmaker itself their financial results are impressive and they have huge scope for growth in retail. Prepare yourself for the Green Invasion on the high-street.

My take on Why re shares .......
1 greed
2 greed if you can count to 10 it would be the same answer

now why shares went up ........

1 They had a very good idea  back /or lay
2 you should stay with what your good at  and Betfair are the best  even now......

unbiased,
I will give you the same advice as I have given to many "traders" over the years.
Take loss when things are not going your way.
The current £6.96 will look huge in a few months,imo.
Alternatively,you can adopt the King Canute approach and watch your wonga disappear before your eyes.

agree zipper they were good at back/lay, but it is a low cost product that required massive turnover, early liquidity has virtually disappeared, P/P W/H concessions early doors have seen them off

saddo,fortunately,other shares have done well ,and taking a substantial loss is admitting defeat.Yes,you,are right that investing the proceeds in something else would be the thing to do,but it has become a personal thing now,and I am in until miracles happen.
  Would still like to know if Roy's company was callowed to immediately sell.
  £5 million or so,bought at £15,sold at £16.50,a not unreasonable quick kill.Or his company may still be holding.I tried various means to find out,but drew blanks.

Liquidity was certain to disappear when they tried to PC the Firms who,quite rightly told them where to go.
Staff  being offloaded faster than a horse can gallop.
If you cannot see which way this is heading you are doomed and soon to be potless.

not so racingstar.Still good liquidity,although arrives late on horseracing.Check how much is matched,even on the moderate midweek stuff.
Asv for the sporting events,there is still growth,with huge turnover.

unbiased, what % of turnover late horses and football cricket golf is just trading not generating comm.

unbiased,
If you believe the Market Figures on here you need help.
Most of my core business is In Running and I can state without fear of contradiction that the Liquidity has halved from a year ago.
You do not need to be a genius to work out who is "seeding" here.
The public were "sucked in" by Traded Figures which produced very little profit.
Hence the costcutting now going on.
Are they doing this because things are rosey?

Poor IT is the issue

I should have stated that horse racing is the area that I am talking about.

started working there about 10 years ago and whilst small it was a nice place to work at with some very good and clever people.

when it was obvious they were talking about floats, the company changed, and tried squeezing every inch of effort they could out of the staff to the point it was horrendous. there was also a bullying culture there by middle management.

then stephen hill left at the frustration of not floating the firm sooner.

they also started employing senior management that had nothing to do with the industry, and naively thought they could lead a betting firm.

these said senior management were very arrogant in their way and dismissive of their staff. many instances of people relocating to different offices, stevenage from hammersmith, malta from stevenage etc being told if they didnt like it they could come back. well, many many people didnt like it and wanted to move back - the company flatly stopped this happening - i presume legally they could do this? many of these people had young familys. there are two people i know in the dublin office i used to work with even now who has had this happen to them presently.

anyone that i respected at the firm left 5-6 years ago, as did i (not labelling myself in their bracket, id had enough). plenty of people that knew what they were doing were moved on for lower paid staff and its like everything, pay peanuts, get monkeys.

lot of good points on this thread, but ultimately, people in high positions that knew what they were doing - mark davies being another - have all left. when i left it had become a horrible place to work, and i know most people i worked with felt the same.

i actually had shares in the firm from when working there, that i had been selling every april and this april will be the lot of them gone, thankfully the bulk of which ive done alright price wise. the deterioration of the firm doesnt surprise me to be honest, and i firmly believe they would have been ok if they turned the clock back 6 years ago and kept the same staff before getting greedy, cutting costs, getting arrogant with the premium charge, trying to think people on lower money with no industry experience could do the same job etc.

i appreciate the structure to what i have just written isnt great but its me just throwing my thoughts and experiences out to what i believe has sent the company into the khazi.

IF YOU BUY SHARES IN FIRMS SUCH AS RATNERS OR MOST OTHER COMPANYS THEY GIVE YOU A 10% OR HIGHER  DISCOUNT WHEN YOU PURCHASE FROM THEM ,BETFAIR SHOULD GIVE YOU A DISCOUNT EVERY TIME YOU PLACE A WAGER

HAVE A WIN SINGLE AND GET 10% OFF IM SURE THE CUSTOMERS WOULD LOVE THAT ,AND MAY BE GIVE EVERY CUSTOMER WHO HAS THEIR 1000TH BET A FREE TIME FORM ANNUAL

I allways had U down as a "stocks & shares" man

Investors follow Investment tipping companies as much as punters of horse races do

and back in the 1920s they were telling everyone and his dog to buy shares

the result was the worst modern recession of all time, delivered and packaged by

the United states that then sat back and watch the rest of the world recoil into

bad politics and eventual war.


The point being those that have given BF a bad rating are as inept as any other get rich quick firm

and the fact BF shares are so low is actually good for BF in the sense that they dont need share holders

and paying back any shares aint a problem, and any that are on board will have to bide their time and see how the outlook

pans out in the future.


Those that cant profit even on a site that offers 100.5 over-rounds and low charges will continue to moan

and tell every one else the pc is too blame when they haven't a cat in hells chance of ever being charged it

or benefiting from the best betting platform ever created in terms of possible profits and fairness to

those that wish to play on a sporting, betting exchange.

Good post Addy.For my own experience I had visited Parsons Green where it all started,and had a good chat with Mark Davies.Then a couple of years ago I visited Hammersmith,and got a shock.This was because I couldn't believe the size of the premises,and the amount of staff,and it scared me,in as much as I got the feeling that it couldn't be right.Exes must have gone through the roof,hence the jettisoning of many unnecessary staff.
Of course I am aware that the final matched figures don't represent REAL trading,as I have often traded the same money on an event several times,but it is still the only way of gauging what is happening on that event.
I said about the midweek as it still often goes over the £1/2 million mark,and on a decent race reaches the £ million.Obviously nobody knows how much of that is REAL money.
  Sports events,like a major footie,or tennis match are still experiencing higher and higher final figures.
   £ for £ the early days must have been so much better,but hopefully Corcoran can see the mistakes,and ,in time ,rectify them.

The Market figures are being "propped up" to avoid the Share Price going where it should be.
Talk to any "In Runner" who has been around for a few years or more.

racingstar,ask yourself whether the success of the company was built on large wagering in-running players,or thousands of small person to person players.The idea hasn't changed,and is still as clever as when first thought of.In-running players have,in many cases,badly burned their fingers,as have many small backers and layers,but the show will go on,and is still,despite what you think,a good business model.

I think ..........most gamblers go skint.......and I think that ive seen em come and go on here.............maybe were left with the "shrewdies"

unbiased,
The pre race players have largely been driven away by PC(what Bookmaker tries to steal an extra 20% off of you).
BF dreamed of worldwide domination (just like many megalomaniacs before them).
It did not happen.
They have been trying to "prop up" the totally unrealistic opening Share Price until they can get rid,imo.
I would not but at £5 if I had to keep.
We shall see who is correct.

*but should read,buy

I think there is a lot more to it than that.Have you been to their Hammersmith premises?
Not trying to preach,but there are two sides to running a company,namely turnover and overheads.Admittedly turnover in certain quarters has dropped,but ,at the same time,I believe from what I have seen,expenses rocketed.
  Both of the above can be rectified.Do you not agree?

They were ludicrously over staffed and I agree that cost cutting will help.
I do not agree that even the current share price is sustainable in the short term..
There is no hiding from a "bottom line".

interesting stuff Addy D - went to Hammersmith a couple of times around 2008 - after the cab driver at the Broadway took me to Fulham (he had never heard of it and neither had his mates - there was also no map on the website then either). I was deeply surprised by the open disdain the middle management layer had for the lifestyle and presumed character of its customers (one was particularly shocked when I admitted to having an active account). Their views on the forum are unrepeatable. Also agree it will become a Business sChool case study, within a decade probably.

I interviewed with them many moons ago, around the time Addy talks about in his post, shortly before Stephen Hill left. I got exactly the impression he describes - how important they were, how they were going to float and become the biggest betting company in the world, etc. The salary they were offering was pretty poor, clearly with one eye on keeping costs right down, so I wasn't overly disappointed in not hearing back from them. A friend was offered a position with them around the same time but didn't take it up on the same basis.

I have huge respect for Black, etc and what they created, but at some point they clearly became a company who swallowed too much of their own hype, and believed they could do no wrong.

unbiased,
The pre race players have largely been driven away by PC(what Bookmaker tries to steal an extra 20% off of you).

showing yourself up there unbiased as bookmakers steal more than 20% off you before the race results comes in  thanks

to the over-round at 125%-137%, then if you make even a couple of bags of sand from them they will have your number, description and even go as far as paying big amounts by cheque or asking your details for security so that they can blacklist you.

At the end of the day you simply couldn't win long term from betting or trading until BF arrived, the pros know this that

have made millions from BF and the street firms know this as they simply cant compete at the same level, miles behind in

ethos, customer respect and inter-net technology...

BFF,If you are going to attempt to slate somebody can you at least get the person right,you utter cretin.
I posted it.
I cannot be bothered to debate with a moron who does not bet on their opinion but,I would highlight your statement that, "the Firms are miles behind in customer respect.
Tell that to the people who are being shafted for PC!
ROFFL

At the end of the day you simply couldn't win long term from betting or trading until BF arrived, the pros know this that have made millions from BF and the street firms know this as they simply cant compete at the same level, miles behind in ethos, customer respect and inter-net technology...

You're really going to hold 'technology' up as BF's strong point, given the shambles that is the new beta site, and the site falling over right in the middle of racing on a Saturday afternoon.

As for ethos and customer respect? Who can tell the difference between them and the other bookmakers these days? Only the deluded like you.

I know it was you racing star , copy and pasted your dribble and unfortunately unbiased was in the caption whoum is ok

in my books but I have found you racing star to be a bit of a big mouthed know all that likes to have a pop at every one and

everything and I would like to debate anything with some one that lacks the right tools.

in my books but I have found you racing star to be a bit of a big mouthed know all

Looked in the mirror lately bf_fananatic?

It would hardly be difficult to know more than you,BFF.
Is there any thread you have not posted on?
Finally,your ratings at Southwell summed you up perfectly.
A two bob bluffer who tries to talk a good game.

I know more about racing in my little finger then you could ever know RC, your old school so move over and check out.

bf fanatic doesn't bet and is likely that he works for betfair. he was the only person who said the beta website was better than the classic one when it was duplicating bets and inputting incorrect stakes, (along with tens of other problems that website had).

I know more about racing in my little finger then you could ever know RC, your old school so move over and check out.

That would be entirely in keeping with the moron,Yomomma.

Doc,
Perhaps one day,his little finger might actually press a Back or Lay button on here.

Very true racingstar. I suppose the technical problems of the new site aren't a concern when you are someone who doesn't actually use it

Indeed,Doc.
What tells you all you need to know about BF is,when you go to log in you are directed to the fixed odds Site and have to opt in to the Exchange.

Although if he does actually work for BF, it might go some way to explaining the share price

If I was betting on betfair and winning at the moment i wouldn't be on the forum mixing in with the pond skaters

and diving Beatles of the likes of you RC as I wouldn't have the time or the pity.

Doc,
If you asked somebody to devise a method of alienating your customers,you would be hard pressed to come up with a better method than extorting PC from people who rarely bet In Running,imo.
Unbridled greed or,trying to create a "mythical" higher turnover?

If I was betting on betfair and winning at the moment i wouldn't be on the forum mixing in with the pond skaters and diving Beatles of the likes of you RC as I wouldn't have the time or the pity.


"If" being the operative word. You're not though.

To quote an old and true saying;"if your Aunt had cobblers she would be your Uncle".

Can't disagree with that racingstar.

Built a business model that has attracted people, and are now in the process of spurning it to become like every other bookmaker.

Doc,
I introduced a Soccer punter to BF who only bet pre off and bet to "good money".
He was flabbergasted to be told he would be "liable to PC if he continued to be as successful.
I did not know what to say to him.
Needless to say,he has never had another bet here and is happy to take a couple of spots less on BD with no PC.
Sharp Minds on BF.

Betfair where winnners are welcome........ how they must live to regret this slogan they used. Premium charge has clearly shown that winners arent welcome and arent wanted. It has killed off liquidity and ruined the site.

Betfair used to be loved by all concerned. Now its the most unpopular company on the stockmarket and hated by its users and its own employees. Such a far cry from the days when Andrew Black and his team were involved.

Lets hope they turn it around and try and look after their customers. Their arrogance and belief that they are untouchable and their customers can take or leave them is severely misplaced.

Spider,
They obviously took the view that the "In Runners" had no other option and they were right(whether that makes it morally justifiable to impose it is another matter).
However,to PC pre-off players was a hideous management mistake that they will live to regret.

Great read this thread and plenty of interesting points raised,have to say i wish they could go back to how it was,ie an exchange and not a glorified bookmakers,i've just been asked to fill in another survey on this site,but i fear nobody is listening anymore

racingstar,

The in-runners did have another option and that was to leave as they go skint. There are a lot of in running players no longer on here as the costs combined with PC made the game not viable. Will they ever come back ? We need pre racers and in-running players to have a healthy site but there are fewer and fewer left in the game. Bet"fair"s "short term" profits look ok but fool nobody.This place is creaking severely and taking in water at a rapid rate. How long before it sinks completely is anyone's guess

I can identify wholeheartedly with Addy's post.  I used to work for a company that had been around for donkey's years, and made steady profits.  We knew what we were good at and stuck to our principles.  However a new management team decided to throw all that out of the window. The company's name was changed, a massive new head office was built (and staffed with new people on fat salaries), while at the same time there was a vicious cut back on staff in the branches, along with draconian cuts in expenditure at the 'sharp end'.
Anyone who dared crticise the new order was deemed negative or living in the past.

Two years later the company was declared bankrupt. However the management team that caused this received golden handshakes and went on to pastures new, as usual.

However, (and I know this will bring howls of protest from PC payers), I believe that even if we could go back to the golden days when Betfair was purely an exchange, there would have come a time when the winners would have become so successful that the supply of losers would have dried up anyway.

What we do here is bet on horses.  We gamble.  Yet over the years using Betfair has spawned an industry in itself.  There are bots, bet placement software programmes, 'trading methods',
and apparently the technology has become so far advanced that some people can lay horses that have fallen before the average bettor knows they've fallen, due to time lag. (This is what I've read posted on here, so correct me if I'm wrong).
Anyone who thinks this could continue forever is in my opinion deluding themselves.  For every winner there are about 98 losers, and if those winners keep increasing their stakes and using ever more sophisticated software they will take so much money that there isn't enough to go round.

The high street bookmakers close your account if you start winning too much.  Casinos will bar you from their premises. You won't be able to bet AT ALL. Not because they are greedy but because the small percentage of winners, by increasing their stakes unchecked, then selling their successful method to others once they've become millionaires, would eventually wipe them out.

Every PC payer who tries to circumvent the rules will mean Betfair will have to employ someone to check that they don't.  Which in turn causes increase in their expenditure.

What form the charge should take is obviously up for debate, but I think some levy would have been inevitable anyway.

Lastly, I hate what Betfair is doing now.  I wish it could go back to being an exchange, but if it did I believe they should think very carefully about allowing certain types of software that allow a small percentage of users an unfair advantage.

The top man pockets all the cash

We all get bombarded with their surveys & would imagine that 99% of us are answering the same way regarding dissatisfaction with site unreliability(& lack of adequate compensation),premium charge &  inadequacy of new site,yet despite this nothing changes & they plough on regardless.Its like they just go through the motions of hearing what their customers say,then carry on giving what they've decided is good for their customers.They pitched their company to 'sharp minds',how many of those are interested in virtual races,slots & casino games?The share price is down & continues to fall because they've lost the plot & subsequently their customer core base.

Why have Betfair shares gone down?

Probably high lights the general numbness of the average Investor/Investment company.

Why do Investors Invest in gold and not silver and Platinum?


Well its the same answer, they assume that gold will continue to rise when in reality it will hit a point that

it can no longer sustain.


My money would be on Platinum as what the average Investor wont know is that research work into power cells 

will soon be at a point when everything from your mobile, tablet will run on a far better battery system

and it is impossible to create this charging process without using Platinum.!


I worked this out 2 years ago and mark my words it will be the massive market mover, as will Betfair one day

when the Global betting world is both allowed to use it and becomes logically aware of its brilliance....

*From your mobile to your car will use Platinum power cells, go figure!

This bloke needs help.

No doubt about it bf_fanatic is totally barking mad.

I worked this out 2 years ago and mark my words it will be the massive market mover

Something else you've worked out will make massive profits, but haven't actually invested any money in?

Do you own any Betfair shares?

lets hope that bff remembered to apply his precious metal filter when he programmed his analysis

"Why have Betfair shares gone down?"

Floated at a bad time and over-valued.

Limited growth prospects, so to try and keep shareholders happy with bigger profit margins they went into exchange games, poker, casino etc. etc.  But that is not what betfair was all about in the beginning, and when all that cr@p came in and the good guys left the company ethos changed.   But don't get me wrong I love betfair, but internally things have changed, we all know that.

they still have the possibility of getting into the massive USA markets though .

^ Australia has been a slow graft for betfair, and the massive USA markets will never be completely open to betfair because of so many different states, and unless they all link up and have a complete change in the gambling laws across all state borders, I don't see how they can break into the USA markets......but hope I'm wrong.

that's true dell, but i did read recently how a few states are relaxing the gambling laws , so maybe in a few years time things may be different .

Can anybody tell me anything negative about betfair sp.