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and her brothers not to bad either
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/return-to-royal-ascot-a-fitting-farewell-for-black-caviar/story-fn67sphz-1226602904988
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/return-to-royal-ascot-a-fitting-farewell-for-black-caviar/story-fn67sphz-1226602904988
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RUbbish, nothing decent in Perth for a while
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I thought Frankel had retired for a life of stud duties
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Black Caviar last night equalled the australian record of 14 group 1 wins in one of her easiest wins, by 5 lens at moonee valley. she was in the best shape of her racing life compared to a noticbaly unwell horse who travelled to england last year. sadly the english never seen the great mare in prime condition.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/sell-out-crowd-flocks-to-see-black-caviar-chase-24th-consecutive-win-in-william-reid-stakes/story-fn67sphz-1226603677488 |
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There are a lot of best horses in the world at the moment
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Why take that risk again when they can stay home and beat Hay List for the 340th time?
As an aside is there any such thing as an up and coming sprinter in Oz? Every time she wins she seems to beat a collection of 5 year olds and older. |
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No shame in beating the 2nd best sprinter in the world, no mater how many times
Mental was the best up and coming sprinter and he has left our shores, you should be following this guy, very very good She can only race horses that are nominated for the race, seems most of the trainers would rather run for first prize in another race rather than 2nd against her. It has become a very disappointing aspect of her greatness and due to our obsession with speed, they have many other races to choose from |
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Marcce..only a collection of older horses? remind you she is 7 yrs old in a few months time, make that 8 yrs old northern hemisphere times.
beating haylist, the 2nd best sprinter in the world for the 340th time? not like frankel beating excelebration 560 times whom wasnt the 2nd best miler in the world. least BC beat all comers and didnt evoid the classier older horses like frankel did for 2 seasons. |
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BC beat all comers and didnt avoid the classier older horses like frankel did for 2 seasons.
I suggest you take off the BC Rose tinted specs and read the Frankel form lines again |
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frankel would beat bc 5 lengths at any distance with me on its back
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http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resources/2012Rankings/2012_11_WTR.asp
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even Peter Mooney conceded that Frankel was the best horse he'd ever seen when he witnessed the Queen Anne ... case closed
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Marcce..only a collection of older horses? remind you she is 7 yrs old in a few months time, make that 8 yrs old northern hemisphere times.
beating haylist, the 2nd best sprinter in the world for the 340th time? not like frankel beating excelebration 560 times whom wasnt the 2nd best miler in the world. least BC beat all comers and didnt evoid the classier older horses like frankel did for 2 seasons. What's her age got to do with it? I just look at her races and it's noticeable that the make up of the fields seems to comprise mostly of older horses. I just wondered why that was because that wouldn't be the case over here. And by bringing up Frankel you've sort of made my point. The more vociferous posters from down under have continually made the Excelebration point to do Frankel down but for some reason have failed to acknowledge the same can be applied to Black Caviar. All comers? Come on now. earlycrow has hit the nail on the head that the greats can only race against what is put up against them. That applied to Frankel as much as it does to Black Caviar. But don't kid yourself that beating a collection of the weakest bunch of sprinters we've had for years at Ascot represented all comers. Let's put it this way. Before Frankel ran in the Juddmonte over 10 furlongs for the first time there was a sense of anticipation and even nervousness at what might happen. Likewise at Ascot in his last race due to the ground. When was the last time Aussies had that with Black Caviar racing in Australia because it seems to me it's now just become a succession of laps of honour for her? |
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Frankel was exceptional at 1 mile to 1 mile 2 furlongs but the split times indicate conclusively
that Black Caviar was the fastest horse on the planet at sprint trips. |
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Kinkeel to run in Queen Alexandra ... excellent
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Animal kingdom is coming
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bf_fananatic 23 Mar 13 12:09
Frankel was exceptional at 1 mile to 1 mile 2 furlongs but the split times indicate conclusively that Black Caviar was the fastest horse on the planet at sprint trips. On what basis ? Unless you class 7f as a sprint, there's no 'Apple for Apple' comparison. Have you seen the first 5f / 6f of Frankels 2000 gns win |
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Black Caviar. Sick of hearing about this over rated Aussie Mule. Winning races over there is no big deal. Only runs against pigs. Must have been on something to win over here so THAT wont be happening again!!
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Black Caviar me arse...who's she beating?dogs...Frankel would laugh at it
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Anyone talking down the greatness of Black Cavier or Frankle should clearly give the game away, two of the great horses to ever grace the turf and those who think they can compare their deeds and conclude one is superior to the other clearly has their hand on it
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it's a fair question so here's the answer
2yo's right now (all the good ones) are about to compete for the Golden Slipper, the richest 2 year old race in the southern hemisphere 3yo's (again all the good ones) would of been set to compete in the Australian Guineas, it's a race over a mile it's a foregone conclusion that any race she is entered in, she will win, so trainers here are now choosing their races around her schedule in races that they know they can possibly win, this is not a reflection of the lack of quality of young sprinters, this is purely a reflection on how good she is and this is going to be her last season, instead of questioning who is she beating, just enjoy the fact that she is racing because honestly (and this is the hard part to comprehend), you will never see another sprinter like her is she racing the best horses when she races now? no obviously not but this can be no fault of Peter Moody's, he enters her in the races he wants to put her in and she wins accordingly, it can hardly be his fault if connections of other horses opt to not compete against her those doubting "who has she beat", just do a little bit of research, understand how good Hay List was (and I say was because he is coming back from a near life ending injury, I don't expect him to be the same horse), the time to question who has she beat was when Hay List was making her beat him, not just idling past on the bridle but Nolen actually having to hit her and get an effort from her, without her Hay List would be a champion in his own right That's a fair enough reply. The reason I made the point in the first place is that it's obviously almost impossible to get any angle on the form from a European perspective. The make up of her races is different to what we would expect to see over here and I wondered why. |
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Ballydoyle Date Joined: 23 Feb 02
Add contact When: 23 Mar 13 15:40 Black Caviar me arse...who's she beating?dogs...Frankel would laugh at it By: This user is offline. EVILROYSLADE Date Joined: 26 Sep 10 Add contact When: 23 Mar 13 14:49 Black Caviar. Sick of hearing about this over rated Aussie Mule. Winning races over there is no big deal. Only runs against pigs. Must have been on something to win over here so THAT wont be happening again!! if she's raced only against dogs and pigs, she must have beaten the runtsof the litters in the UK (royal ascot ) |
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Andrew in Sweden
23 Mar 13 14:45 Joined: 10 Nov 07 | Topic/replies: 2,248 | Blogger: Andrew in Sweden's blog bf_fananatic 23 Mar 13 12:09 Frankel was exceptional at 1 mile to 1 mile 2 furlongs but the split times indicate conclusively that Black Caviar was the fastest horse on the planet at sprint trips. On what basis ? Unless you class 7f as a sprint, there's no 'Apple for Apple' comparison. Have you seen the first 5f / 6f of Frankels 2000 gns win Do you think I make data up? I reviewed an extensive report into Black Caviars splits at each furlong of here races and they were compared to Frankel and the difference between them is the same as the average difference between a good miler and a good sprinter about 1 and a half seconds per furlong, which is massive and Black Caviar is a monster of a sprinter so you can forget her race at ascot when she limped home injured and looked very tired and still won! |
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Frankel had the ability to run for around 4 furlongs at a speed quite short of what black caviar can do for 5 - 6 furlongs
she also holds track records, something Frankel never pulled off. enough said. |
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heres the data and in tells you that Frankels top speed for a sustained max 3 furlong sprint is about
10.94 sec per furlong, Black caviar can reach under 10 secs per furlong and she can go from the gun to the line at almost top speed thus she would easily beat Frankel at 5-6 furlongs but at 7 furlongs plus she might run out of gas if racing Frankel at his optimum trip. Bit silly to compare them as 2 different types of runner but 7 furlongs straight would of been some contest. Frankel was timed at 50.96sec for a leisurely first 800m of the Queen Anne but then he turned on the turbos to clock 11.26s for the fifth furlong before cranking it down to 10.58s for the sixth furlong before storming away in majestic isolation for an overall winning time of 1m 37.85s (the track record stand at 1:37.16s). Turftrax credited Frankel with a devastating time of 32.88s cumulatively covered for the sixth, seventh and final furlongs (a total of about 600m). The Black Caviar fact file given to a battalion of media at Royal Ascot highlighted 50 pointers to know about the Australian icon -- one of them that her fastest 200m split time was the 9.98s between the 600m and 400m of the 2012 Group I Lightning Stakes (1000m) at Flemington. That fact is embellished by a claim this sectional was the first time in Australia the ten-second barrier for 200m was bettered, giving her a top speed of 72.14km/h. |
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How can you compare the times ffs. Frank was not gong to run any stage of a 1m 2 at 6/7f pace.
Had he been in her race at ascot she would of been humiliated. |
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5/6
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5/6
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bf_fananatic 24 Mar 13 03:07
Do you think I make data up Hmmmmm ...... in a word YES Frankel had the ability to run for around 4 furlongs at a speed quite short of what black caviar can do for 5 - 6 furlongs I reviewed an extensive report into Black Caviars splits at each furlong of here races and they were compared to Frankel and the difference between them is the same as the average difference between a good miler and a good sprinter, about 1 and a half seconds per furlong, which is massive and Black Caviar is a monster of a sprinter So based on 1 second = 5 to 6 lengths (it's subject to variables), but taking the lower figure, you're suggesting that BC would beat Frankel by 30L over 6f ?  Get a grip bf |
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moneytree, ffs..you think if there was a race where BC and frankel were to meet, she would have been in racing 9 months looking tired and no core engine as you top jockey blogged he was suprised the condition she was presented, he was suprised she won and all this after she trialed the day before to keenly and had already run her race.
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andrew...its a case that if BC was a miler her winning margins would be more impressivbe than frankels. her average winning margin as a sprinter is 3.9l
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Megsy both in fll fitness he would beat her at any distance.
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Megsy, I doubt that and there's no correlation between winning distances at 5f and 8f anyway.
I'm not knocking BC at all, I simply disagree with the drivel spouted by bf fananatic. I was at Ascot for Frankels' 11L demolition job in the QA and would loved to have seen BC several days later, but other commitments prevented that. I backed her to win that race and although surprised she only just held on, there were possibly mitigating reasons. She's a remarkable mare and probably the best sprinter around at the moment (best ever is up for debate) but I have no doubt that Frankel would have beaten her over any distance, although maybe not by 11L |
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She would be near the top of anyone's list of failed miler's tbf.
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Frankel would have destroyed Black caviar over seven furlongs on any ground!
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trainer just said on atr, strong chance black caviar will run in the king stand and stay on to be covered by frankel.
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It will be ground dependant? if it is quick(not watered) then maybe.
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why are you lot having this conversation, it's been done and done and done and just when you thought there was no more to be discussed.. it was done and done again
enjoy her while she is still racing because we know Frankel is retired to stud, in 6 months time people will be looking back thinking.. "ahh, so what freakish horse can we follow now?" each of the 2 horses were once in a lifetime horses in their own respective countries, stop ripping into one and other and just enjoy it |
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The trainer said that the record-breaking mare could then remain in Britain to be covered by Frankel.
Black Caviar appeared almost certain to be retired after scraping home in a dramatic Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Ascot last June, but she has been nursed back to full fitness and has appeared better than ever since returning to the racecourse. The seven-year-old mare made an impressive comeback in the Lightning Stakes at Flemington in mid-February and extended her unbeaten run to 24 in the William Reid Stakes at Moonee Valley on Friday. While her trainer would be quite happy to see his pride and joy finish off her career on home soil, he admits the owners are keen on a return to the Royal meeting this summer. "On the Sunday post-Ascot last year, I was resigned to the fact she'd run her last race, but it's amazing how she's returned," Moody told At The Races. "She probably hasn't been this sound for three seasons or so and the way she's going about her racing, never say never - there has been quite a concerted push towards the fact she may head back to Ascot again this year. "My mindset is that there's definitely some unfinished business, as there is no doubt you didn't get to see the best of her. "I've got no doubt I could present her in better shape, but I believe there are a lot more options for her here and they're a lot more valuable monetary-wise. "Australian racing really deserves her, but the feeling I am getting from the owners is that they would very much like to come again (to Ascot)." Should Black Caviar make the trip across the globe once more, it seems likely she will this year take in the shorter King's Stand Stakes on the first day of the meeting. However, Moody is not ruling out letting his star mare run in both the King's Stand and the Diamond Jubilee four days later. He said: "I'd feel I could give her a much softer preparation towards the King's Stand, but if it was going to be a grand finale, you wouldn't rule out possibly trying to 'do a Choisir' and running in both. "But I would think the King's Stand will be made a prime target, as she's already been there and done the job in the other race." A potential return to British soil sets up the tantalising prospect of a mating with Frankel, who retired to Banstead Manor Stud in Newmarket unbeaten at the end of 2012. "The other aspect of it is that there is a strong concerted push for her to be bred to Frankel, which is something I do strongly support," said Moody. "If she came to Ascot and ran in June, she would then remain there and be covered by Frankel before returning to Australia. "I joked about it previously, but I don't think it would be a silly mating. "Physically they are quite well matched and it would certainly create a lot of interest - a colt or a filly by Frankel out of Black Caviar." |