A Petition by MP's to make the Max Bet £2 on Betfair

You have completely misunderstood the argument and the distinction between Betfair PtoP betting and FOBT's

Please explain the difference between losing £100 on here or £100 on a FOBT?

First of all are you talking about sports betting on here or the equivelant FOBT's on here ?

Lets say Sports Betting Olias.

i feel the mps may have more important issues to solve , but looking at them perhaps not

First of all FOBT's have little or no cooling off period between spins whilst horse racing for example does offer a natural break between bets. Secondly, and of course this is just my personal view, two people or more betting against each other (even with BF taking comm) in a game of skill in which those with the greater skills make a profit is morally OK with me. By contrast games in which no one wins other than the producer of the game is really a tax on the stupid, produced in this case by bookmakers and supported by MP's who in turn are supported by bookmakers.

Paulie

I have a £100 Sports Bet on here and it loses, I put £100 in a FOBT and lose. Am I somehow better off by losing £100 on here? Is it a 'better' form of losing?

I will say again if you want to ban gambling then you should be arguing against ALL forms of gambling not just one particular area, can you not see this?

Olias, you conveniently forget the commission charge. As for cooling off, how many markets are there on here accessible 24/7?

GAMBLING IS GAMBLING.

Full stop.

One has an element of skill
The other is a form of robbery

Hope this Helps

Olias, agree, but the bookies do their best to deny the "cooling off period" by filling the natural breaks with cartoon cars/dogs/horses plus numbers games and other shoite, very cynical of them I feel.

Biscar

On Track boys mopping up, is this skill?

Non-triers and blatant stopping of horses, those in the know laying horses, is this skill?

People betting on here not doing any form of form study, is this skill?

utter stupidity and naivety on your part big issue.

go back to the other thread.

The main difference is FOBT's are far more likely to lead to gambling addiction that sports betting.

Everybody wins on Betfair do they Paulie?

As per the FOBT's the commission charge or FOBT take whittles your balance away eventually unless you are the 5% that win on here.

Big Issue, I'll try and give a simple explanation of why they are different.

Does any bookmaker make stake restrictions on a FOBT player, like they do frequently on other forms of betting ?

The answer, of course, is no. They know that FOBTs can lose, and they know some punters can win.

who do you work for?

why wouldnt you want these machines limited to £2 per spin?

i cant see any logic in why anyone wouldnt want these scourges on society either highly restricted or banned outright unless you are on the payroll.

come on....hills, lads, coral???

With FOBT's no one wins other than the bookmaker. With horse racing and indeed other sports 2% to 3% win long term whilst the other either strive to do so or bet for amusement. This for me makes it a game of skill and therefore IMO morally acceptable. With regard to the number of events and time intervals on here I do not think it pins the punter down in the same way that having the same EVENT repeated every 10 seconds does on an FOBT. There is also the fact that FOBT's are constructed to deliver Psychological appetising losing results which entice the player further. Horse racing is unable to do this, in fact its probably at the other end of this spectrum.

a bit like comparing chalk with cheese, the FOBTs being the smelly stuff

Paulie, I don't work for any vested interests. Nor do I play FOBT's.

Just the 'moral' crusade against these is perverse, like I said gambling is gambling, different forms and for MOST people the same result.

People my 'enjoy' playing and losing on here, perhaps they 'enjoy' playing and losing on FOBT's?

If you are anti-gambling that's fine, petition away to end all forms, it's just perverse to concentrate solely on one particular area.

alot of punters wait 12 months to bet on a major race with ample cooling off, form study, and debate about what to

bet on and how much they can happily afford.


certainly not a 20 seconds game that you simply cant beat!

on the payroll(nap)

Paulie, I am not on anyone's payroll, and indeed not sticking up for anybody. All I am saying is that your argument against FOBT's is perverse.

You seem to think some forms of gambling are acceptable and others not. No logic to your arguments. Ban none or ban all would be fine if you argued that.

Why are not against the National Lottery or Scratchcards or Bingo?

Do you believe that the people running this campaign are genuinely just anti FOBTs or do you think that they are going for the easy target first?

The person funding the main campaign has made millions through selling casino content so naturally would see FOBTs as his main competitor.

Other campaigning groups have openly stated that they are only targetting FOBTs first as they are an easy target as they are visible. They have stated that they will then move to online gambling which they consider to be worse. Bear in mind that the law will be soon be changing requiring all online firms to hold UK licences and you will see that it will suddenly become easier for them to get traction against online firms in political circles.

I know that everyone has their own reasons for their particular stance however I think it is naive to suggest that things will end at FOBTs and I personally don't want do gooders ruining my hobby.

Horse racing is secretly resticted already by the high street bookmakers, you go in any shop and try and

put a big bet on and see what happens or ask all the people that have had accounts closed just because they were slightly

in profit.


any one can go into a bookmaker and sit with 3 grand and play it all away in no time at all, the bookies know this as they watch on a monitor at the counter and do nothing to stop it.


this is the reason you have to have legislation and the reason you can limit your losses in one day by setting limits

on your personal settings on betfair if you feel that you have a problem.

You can self-exclude from shops as well BF if you want to.

Big Issue

"If you are anti-gambling that's fine, petition away to end all forms, it's just perverse to concentrate solely on one particular area".

I am anti-drugs but I do not consider it at all perverse to have a legal distinction between types of drugs

Blackbarn

I agree, I mean Alcohol and Nicotine are okay apparently and yet kills hundreds of thousands in this country every year.Ten people die from taking E and it's bad apparently.

no one on better will sign your petition big issue but most would sign the FOBT so what does that tell you

and I wonder if William hills give there customers a chance to agree with the legislation or do they just offer

a chance to decide one way, THERE WAY!

^^^No one using betfair would sign your petition^^^

BF

I suspect you are right, no-one on here would want to limit bets to £2, that's kind of my point! Have you heard of irony?

But FOBT's which they don't play they want to, why is this?

Most gamblers would sign a petition to reduce the amount that you can spin in one go as most punters

have had bad experiences with playing on machines or know friends and family or some one that has had major problems with

the current poor control of these machines which are ever increasing all the time now...


In Victorian times a third of the population was on heroin before someone decidd that it was destroying peoples lives

so it was banned.

I would not sign a petition against any form of gambling
because some bright spark might decide we should ban internet gambling
I like gambling

any links to the story the OP is referring to what does the petition say

There used to be a law that gambling was only permissible if an element of skill was involved.
What happened to that ?

Big_Issue     17 Mar 13 12:02 
Biscar

On Track boys mopping up, is this skill?

Non-triers and blatant stopping of horses, those in the know laying horses, is this skill?

People betting on here not doing any form of form study, is this skill?


WALOFS !

In my experience FOBT players and Betfair players are very different individuals.
Those playing FOBT machines are far more vulnerable as they lack knowledge, intellect,discipline and most importantly a Bank Account ,which rules them out of online transactions.
They need immediate returns /cash to make payments as many live hand-to-mouth and cannot wait for days awaiting bank credits.
It is for these reasons that any attempt to restrict losses by imposing limits should be welcome by all, except Mr Issue who is talking carp.

Must be an old law amusement arcades and bingo been around for decades.Whats the difference in someone putting £100 in a fobt or standing in a newsagents putting the same amount on lottery scratchcards its all down to the get rich quick but don`t want to work for it attitude of todays society.

indeed

I won plenty of money at the Festival but had zero inside information that was not publicly available and did most of my bets the week before the meeting and only put some very low odds keep bets in for in running lays

I did it by working hard (and by that I mean I looked at and thought about the lifetime racing record of virtually every horse running, studying the trends and stats, watching replays of key races and often many times, making notes, studying ratings and thinking about them, creating and adjusting my own ratings) and thinking clearly

I haven't added up the hours but if you include all the work I did over the winter it runs in several hundred hours I would think. You can do it on skill but there's no short cut, those moaning about in running traders and horses being stopped need to reflect on their own level of involvement imo.

As Gary Player said "the harder I work the luckier I get"

Those playing FOBT machines are far more vulnerable as they lack knowledge, intellect,discipline and most importantly a Bank Account ,which rules them out of online transactions.

I take your point mike but
thinking about it, is is not betting on creditwhere people can get themselves in serious trouble
all the FOBT gambler does is lose the money in their pocket, when it is gone it is gone

open to argument

There was a case decades ago about Spot the Ball. Lawyers made a fortune arguing whether ANY skill was involved. Bingo and Amusement Arcades must have been exempt but presumably because the amounts involved were small. For casinos strictly speaking you had to be a member for 24 hours if I remember rightly ( though that was widely flouted ). I thought lotteries were illegal until the National lottery was introduced but for years that had a legal monopoly I believe.

EbulGery,of course you are right and we all have to learn the hard way,

EbulGery,of course you are right and we all have to learn the hard way,

continued...and I go in Betting Shops many youngsters go in and pump money in they cannot afford.
At least a £2 max would slow these people down.
People behind the jump must have real problems sleeping seeing the gloom and despondency and misery and poverty unfolding before their eyes.
And they are party to it.

The point you are all missing on in terms of FOBT verses sports betting arguments is this...


AT NO POINT DOES THE BETTOR OF SPORTS HAVE THE ABILITY TO BET AT A SPORTS EVENT THEN SEE THE RESULT AND HAVE HIS/HER

BALANCE ADJUSTED IN THE SPACE OF 20 SECONDS, NOR IS THE GAME VIEWED AS HIS OWN PERSONAL GAME TO WHICH HE OR SHE BECOMES

TRANS-FIXED AND ELF APPOINTED TO REDEEM THE LOSSES OF HIS/HER GAMING SESSION.

Mar 17, 2013 -- 12:48PM, Big_Issue wrote:

Please explain the difference between losing £100 on here or £100 on a FOBT?

But surely you can see how bad FOBT machines are, when the vast majority of the gambling mad Betfair community are against them? FOBT and Sport gambling are like Chalk and Cheese. With one, there is the press details of the event and you can spend hours watching live. The other is a solitary occasion, not even the consolation of somehow being unlucky, or gaining pointers for a future event.   

The best comparison is taking a loan: One from a loan shark and the other from a bank with clearly defined terms and conditions. You can make your own mind up which is which.

you are right Mike and these people may well have debts they have run up in raising the money for these machines

As regards skill, I think for some betting on horses is a skill, but for others it is just pot luck
they have neither the intellect nor inclination to learn about what they are bettting on, it is just a bit of fun
although overall I think it is fair to say some skill is ivolved

Also I think punters who do have some aptitute for sports betting and put some work in..
and have control of their gambling..they may not all win, but suspect bookmakers dont make a lot out of them

What the bookmakers want, is a punter with little knowledge and most importantly no control
these are the mugs they make their money off

just my opinion

Mar 17, 2013 -- 11:48AM, Big_Issue wrote:


Please explain the difference between losing £100 on here or £100 on a FOBT?

The difference is about the same as spending £20 on energy drinks and £20 on a bag of crack cocaine

hope that clears things up for you

If I lost £3000 in a FOBT and went back with a sledgehammer and destroyed it, and got my money back,
would I be guilty of robbery, or just vandalism?

you get your cocaine cheap b/f...where do you get it

oops..I know bad taste

both pete

In other words currently in the UK the playing of FOBTs on every high street are the most expensive additions

of all time and are causing more problems in economically poor areas of the country than any other form of addition.

addition             cost per week

Coffee and tea        £6

Energy drinks         £20

Alchohol              £50-£100

Drugs                 £ 50-£2000

gambling lottery-sports £50-£200

Gambling FOBTs         £100-£10,000 and that amount is possible in one day currently

WHAT DO U THINK THE AVERAGE BET ON HERE IS 10,20,50 POUNDS OR MORE???

About 3p due to bots imo.

Some people do indeed spend more on Sports betting but most of these can afford it and do so on an exchange

with a better chance of a return with 100.5 % over-round.

bf fanatic the bookies should employ you to argue the case against fobts.

lets put it all another way

If we assume that the average addicted FOBT player is playing at high stakes of say £100 per spin and lets

say he can maintain that level of play for one hour, then the player would of staked say at 2 spins per minute

£18,000 in one hour.


IF he then went up to the counter and bet more than £100 on a horse race he would be referred to the manager and

then H.Q. and then possibly be restricted to £40-£100 and this process would take five minutes.

WHY THE DIFFERENCE AS CLEARLY THE PREVENTION OF LARGE STAKES OVER THE COUNTER IS NOT COSTING JOBS?

One of the most moronic threads ever put on this forum.

How anyone can say there is no difference to punting on here or on a FOBT is beyond me. You need sectioning

sorry £12,000 per hour staked on an FOBT at £100 a spin and 2 per minute.

We go from £12,000/hour to deprived areas!!!
Wouldn't you just like to know if anybody has ever done that,I think not.Meanwhile it gets quoted more and more.
  As for all the talk about not getting on,I know somebody that had a huge cash bet on Sir Des Champs,without any problem.There will always be restrictions on uncompetitive races,but for posters to talk about it as the norm,is the same nonsense as the £12,000/hour player.

As for all the talk about not getting on,I know somebody that had a huge cash bet on Sir Des Champs,without any problem

Was it a FOBT player, as they seem to be the only ones not struggle to get a bet on, or was it someone who habitually loses with that bookmaker ?

For someone who has over 40 accounts restricted by various bookmakers, it is the norm I'm afraid.

Nobody really thinks anyone actually loses £12,000 (it's really £18,000). It's just used to make the point that one is capable of doing it, emphasising the speed of play without time to consider between plays. The same could not be said of any shrewd punter whose chance of staking £12,000 in an hour is impossible with today's bookmakers, given their restrictions.

Unbiased you are one sad deluded fecker.Leaving aside whether or not addictive games of chance should be allowed inside premises originally designed to cater for over the counter betting,to suggest restrictions are not the norm is plainly rubbish.

Thanks very much for the praise,nice of you to say.Reading posts properly would be beneficial to you,as posters saying things like "nobody can get £100 bet,or nobody can get on",is as stupid as saying players can lose £12,000/hour.
Of course people can get on,depending on what,or where.
The generalisations are the nonsense,putting everything into a neat compartment.For my part,I found leaving each way requests alone does help to get on.
Oh,you didn't praise ,you abused and swore instead,pathetic!

TRD.Racing


Spot on.

bf fanatic the bookies should employ you to argue the case against fobts.

When I used to be a mug punter I played these machines and I won the max payout of £500 from £13 on a single number a fair few times. I was never stopped from playing though.

When I won 2k on four separate horses on Monday I found my account shut on Monday evening. During cheltenham week as well.

How is this fair?

Total stake - profit/loss on FOBTs
Ditto horse racing

When I used to be a mug punter.....

How is this fair?

You'd get on in my shop.

Pete - the thing that really gets me is that the same shop I lost in for 15 years has now made me sp only. I used to get pretty much anything I wanted on pricewise horses. Biggest ever was 250 on attaché at 33/1. They now restrict to 5ew. Apparently u can still get larger amounts on pricewise if u are an 'a''category punter. I asked what u need to do to obtain this category and was told basically someone who loses every day on the machines.

Jeez! They're not exactly full of tact, are they?

I was just winding you up, but the point is that you need to be more imaginative. You're like someone who
thinks they want to play fair like some of the big layers from the middle of last century. You need to
start outwitting them because once you're beating the percentages, you're a marked man.

unbiased you really are the most pathetic poster on here and I include those who spank and allegedly interfere with their Charges...

Why would I want to bet win only with a "Bookmaker" when in the races I target I can get far better odds on here...

The trouble with a Democratic Society is that morons like you can post their lies hoping that there is someone out there who will believe them..

Oh and I am not interested in the myth that is "Pricewise" or the biggest poster (to lay) Hugh Taylor...