Brian Hazell - 1/6 the odds EW in the feature race today

Corals special on RUK yesterday was quarter the odds all races.....

Which race?

The Greatwood

Can any books who were betting 1/5, or Neil who was betting 1/4 tell me what the each way book looked like ?

He does it everywhere,NO 1 on the rails at thirsk,betting next to billys who have to go 1/4,they struggle to take a bet with BDH and grandson yelping at the punters,been said many times but 90% of punters on course no care otherwise they couldn't/wouldn't do it.

Don't!

I BELIEVE THIS 1/6 THE ODDS MALARKEY IS AS WE SPEAK BEING LOOKED AT BY THE big FIRMS,SO MUCH SO TWO OF BRIANS STAFF HAVE BEEN HEAD HUNTED TO REVEAL ALL

at least he bets 1/5th odds on the grand national

1/5 th the first three ?

Same to$$er was going a 1/6 on friday (dodging bullets race) and the kid on the stool looks like AL JOLSON singing MAMMY !

ginger coont

BDH is doing this on more and more races these days, and regularly bets 1/5 in 12-15 handicaps when the figures at 1/4 are ok.

He bet 1/6 1234 on one of Perth's biggest races (4/1 the field) for no reason apart from getting one over on the punters. I understand that 1/4 would be well overbroke but he could have at least gone 1/5 like most others.

When junior is on the joint, it's another reason to try & not bet next to him

last time i looked it was a democracy in this country where we all have choices and bdh has his !!!

his books his pitches his e/w/terms his decisions and its his business what he does !!

Also his playing with his OWN readies intheknow.

what you say is 100% correct and you are commended for supporting your employer . he also seeks publicity whenever possible so we should all praise the opening poster for helping along the way and giving him that publicity

Yep adge I agree BDH needs the publicity,I think a short spot on Morning Line might educate a few punters about the ew terms.BDH would be a prime candidate for an interview,and explanation to the punters as to how to get a bit of value.

lol alan im just saying it as it is mate rightly or wrongly he who pays the piper calls the tune and all that blah blah .....bdh also bets to a 1/5th one two in four runner races on occasion although was not mentioned by op and its all about freedom of speech imo ...good luck x dave d

I'm well aware that he 'plays with his own money' and of course he is entitled to offer whatever ew terms he wants to, However, he likes to portray the picture that he is 'the punters friend' when on many occasions he is quite the opposite.

He does indeed offer 1/5 the odds 1,2 on 4 runner races but you conveniently left out the fact that he often extends this 'offer' to include 5,6 & 7 runner races too.

is this the same brian who puts all is pitches for sale in the racing post ,every now and again

When you are sailing on the titanic there is little need for one of the sailors to open the portholes just to speed the process along surely?

Didn't think bookmakers and punters were friends.

The on-course operators are a bit like a corner shop opening 45 minutes further away from their customers than the local tescos. They then charge 10p more for their apples and wonder why they can't sell as many as they used to....

yes lightbulbs but there is a way . you advertise your apples as the best ENGLISH apples that money can buy and fresher than inferior imports [ whether the tesco ones are or not ].
as BDH does , for those who don't know what 1/4 and 1/6 mean [ and there are many ] he pushes it hard and gives the punters the impression that 1/6 odds is the days special offer. a master at work

Went 1/4 the odds on all 16+ handicaps 1-2-3-4 and managed to win on the each ways on all races at Cheltenham except the Paddy Power. On this race (Racing Post Hurdle) won £330 on the places and £200 on the other large race handicap on Sunday. Will continue to bet at 1/4 the odds for all these large field handicaps.

Neil

suv ,
black sam asked what percentage you had to bet to to offer 1/4...can you remember.
pleased to hear you did well , a warm up to betting next to jocky wilson next saturday possibly

Percentage wasn't very good at 94% but pinpointed around 10 horses that i definitely wanted to lay for a place so was slightly higher on those and managed to lay them quite high for a place.

latest gimmick is to put a show up 2 minutes before he wants to bet on the first race to say 130%

then strolls round the other bookies saying "look they are bigger than me on 12 out of the 13 horses"

then proceeds to strut back to his joint and put 105% on his board blaming everyone else

then proceeds to hedge back a fair proportion of the win book whilst keeping the over inflated place book

then tells the odd curious punter he is the biggest win price in the ring hence 1/6th the odds or 1/5th the odds in a 14 runner handicap for the place book when as itk correctly says the place margin at 1/4 odds is probably a commercially acceptable 117%

suppose this is what happens when the place book is more important than the win book cos a large chunk has been hedged away

bonkers and crackers are the same

he is slowly becoming the jocky wilson of the north

it must be the future !

red-lorry, "bonkers and crackers" lol

regarding these place terms, the only people to blame are the gambling commission for allowing bookies to offer whatever place terms they like on races.
If they said we had to bet to standard place terms like the shops then the win book would be so much better to get the place percentages above 100%.
How can you bet a 1/4 odds next to a bookie going a 1/6 and offering bigger win odds, punters see 16/1 at 1/6 and bet this rather then 14/1 at a 1/4.

sadly adge, many of your colleagues that are trying to flog rotten apples to a diminishing public, are well past their sell by date....

This is becoming quite common to offer 1/6th . There vwere a couple doing it at cheltenham last year . Little do they realise they are killing the goose that laid the golden egg. If people dont think they are getting some value they will stop going racing.

perhaps the all powerful NBPA  can do something about this problem now they have strengthened their board of directors

simple answer then .buy yourself better pitches bet 1/4 the odds as much as you like take all the money on the track (decreasing week by week )and retire to somewhere hot and sunny with the proceeds .........now why didnt i think of that

those last two posts are a key to the arguement
the gambling commission are totally clueless and the AGT have both hands tied behind their back.
however this is now getting out of hand and with the high street complaining the racecourses seeing attendances drop ,the NAB together with the courses may soon come to some agreement regarding conditions of trade.
fingers crossed , it's long past time

the two posts being lightbuls and councillor

Adge - This is exactly what any professional body should be seen to be doing, driving the industry forwards for the moral/ethical stance towards their customers which hopefully might ensure it survives long term....... if is compulsion that forces the jokers out who bet to non-standard terms when there is no need as well as the commission agents then that can be no bad thing.......   Take the hard line...... your future depends on it....

alan ya know me and i have to stand up and defend one of my employers .....and the fact hes away today to sunnier climes means he cant do it himself lol xxx

any bookie going 1/6odds ew in handicaps shouldnt be allowed to stand.its worse than fbots.
theres no excuse for it.

I only bet on course with bookies that give the correct EW odds if I can't get them I bet on the rails or off course.If everyone else did the same.They would have to offer the correct odds.Needs a bit of punter education. The race courses should put up signage to tell punters the correct recommended odds for all races.

GBFC would'nt it be great if everyone did that. These people would learn a hard lesson with empty satchels. Personally I would never place a win bet with them either. Do people who do this deserve your trade or support???? I think not!!!

recently at huntingdon jack wilson {who masquarades as an oncourse bookmaker, yet imo is a thief an imposter and f*****g disgrace] bet 1/7th on a handicap when i was know where near overbroke at the correct terms. at the top of my voice i imformed the public what this imposter and cheat was up to and told him what i thought too.however he has a skin thicker than a gaza bunker!! i personaly have no respect whatso ever and never will have any respect for any of my so called coleagues who continue this sharp practise of willfully defrauding the public. all i ask is that any public reading this forum pls pls don't tar us all with the same brush shop around in the ring thankfully the majority [like me i hasten to add] don't CHEAT with the place terms

he just hides behind his computer , flash , and lets his wife take all the flack and as she doesn't even understand the language properly never mind betting no one gets very far.there do seem to be plenty of arguements after races when it's too late , though.
see you on saturday

Blimey adge are you dragging Bob down the A1 on Saturday ? I thought it was one of the days you put your feet up. Hope things are ok on the domestic front. Do you know what that 'flash bookie' chappie trades under - seems as if he's one of the better layers as in no deception with the terms offered ?

its very hard for people on here to get their heads round,but 80% of racegoers on saturday or big meeting are the type of punters who wouldnt cross the road from badbrookes to billys to get 12 to 1 about a horse thats 10,s in baddies,the gambling is part of the day same as drinking and eating,mr hazell looks like joan of arc compared to those charging £8 for fish and chips ,fiver for a pastie or £4 for a pint,its all in a day at the racesm
no doubt those on here take a flask of coffee, a nip in a hip flask , corned beef and onion sarnies and bet on their phone,theres no right and wrong it takes all sorts

print leaflets naming them and distrubute them to the punters

who the pastie sellers or the fish and chip sellers

How many bookies would have offered 1/4 odds on 16-20 runner handicaps at cheltenham over the weekend(fair play to P Johnson who always offer this), betting to around to around 90% on the place book.
Would the punter rather we offer Win only or go 1/5 odds on theses races.
I bet to 1/5 on these are am losing on place books at 1/5.

Adge have you read the 18.06 posting by Never give up?

It's not a bad idea you know and surely completely legal....a service to the public?

Lots of proper bookies would help out I'm sure...just a matter of distributing leaflets with info on.

of course its legal..........its the same as them advertising there so called place terms

Quite agree 'never' ! Alternatively the racecourse could monitor the situation for say two meetings the print an advert in the racecard something along the lines of : 'Racegoers are advised that recommended terms for each way betting are up to 7 runners 1/4 odds 1-2, and so on where 1/4 and 1/5 apply. The following bookmakers XX, ZZ etc have at previous meetings offered inferior terms. Please check befor placing your bets'. The marketing fee could fund the printing costs.

your trying to crack a nut with a sledge hammer here,those  who are interested are using bookies apps,bog offers,betfair etc and those who arnt interested are blissfully enjoying their day at the races,
its the bookies who are losing the custom of the dedicated punters so if they arnt bothered why should anyone else be

Wouldn't have to name names either (the charlatans would complain about that) but just point out what's going on and what to look out for.....

YOU CANT TELL A MAN WHAT TO DO WITH HIS POUND NOTE

how long will it be before they a bookie starts offering best odds on course on every race

Don't agree with BDH's practice here but would normally say "when in rome"etc as it's really the toothless GC and the punters to blame not BDH,but much as i get on with BDH (most of the time) i agree with the critics as he tries to big himself up as a leading layer etc when he is really acting like a real tool here and he knows that however he dresses it up he shouldn't really be doing it.We are all competing against each other to a certain extent but some can't resist trying every trick in the book however distastefull it may be and i'm afraid BDH is a fully paid up member of this particular club.

well done to all on-course bookmakers who continue offering 1/4 odds all races, but, unfortunately the only regular punters you achieve are the pros, the mugs take any price.

The gambling commission certainly opened a can of worms with the E.W. terms.But i stayed with the traditional terms but a couple of years ago while working at Aintree i got grief of a gang of lads calling me a robbing so and so while all around me were betting to a 1/5 and was told to improve my terms off them it was a bit un nerving as the abuse got a bit too threatening but at least i logged it in my incident book for the gambling commission to view

Nov 19, 2012 -- 6:20PM, the artful dodger wrote:

Wouldn't have to name names either (the charlatans would complain about that) but just point out what's going on and what to look out for.....

well name the bookmakers that are betting the right terms then on the leaflets instead

MR BENNET TODAY AT LEICESTER LAID A 2500-1000 THE FIRST FAV AND HAD A 1400-800 BACK WAS HE BOTHERED  NAHHH IT CAME 5TH

Laying 11/2 a 7/4 shot heh ? Now that's what I call someone who knows what he's doing !!

RICHEST MAN IN DONCASTER

Pleased to see you didn't say 'brainiest' !!!

2500-1000 IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS 100-20 AL .....TENNERS

SAW A BOOKMAKER AT RASEN LAY A 5000/ 800 STARTED TO BACK IT BACK AT 5 TOOK 11/4 AT FINNISH EVERYTHING RED 300 TO 500.DONT SUPPOSE ITS MUCH DIFFERENT TO MY ERROR.LAID 1100/400 TO OFFICES HAD 360 BACK ON WRONG HORSE THAT IMMEDIATELY TAILED OFF.HAD A 500/200 IN RUNNING TO EASE PAIN.GOT BEAT .IF IT WAS A CASH BET THAT CRASHED HES GOT TO MAKE A DECISION IF ITS TRADE ITS GREED.

YEAH BUT YOUR ERROR WAS THE ONLY ONE THIS CENTURY

surely those two words never appeared in the same sentence .........richest and doncaster lol

WISH I WAS A DOLLAR BEHIND HIM....EVEN THE REPS GOY HALF A MILL

Not like the old days eh Cashy.I remember one of Martin Pipes being backed from 14/1 down to 5/1 at Rasen,After it duly trotted up 95% of the ring were running round trying to borrow money to pay out. I believe the Sawyer organisation helped several out,as did Steve the Tic Tac.Ah the benefits of Betfair,back it back on the exchange,but don't forget the CASH punter wants paying if it wins.
Fortunately this doesn't happen too often now as Cash punters who have more than £20 on are almost extinct.Mr Bennett obviousley found one at Leicester

We went 1/5 odds 1234 in the paddy power gold cup

I laid £100 grand crus for a place
Backed the 3rd horse to win £300 place only
Didn't take a place bet for the 4th horse

Lost £400 on the book places

How do the boys make it pay at a 1/4 I'll never know

545, they dont, betting 90% place book you eventually lose.

Saving grace is at 1/4 the odds you don't hardly strike a bet.
17/1 £2.50 e/w at 1/6th odds please....

Yes 545, it seems hard to win going a 1/5 odds nevermind a 1/4. Lost on 4 out of the 5 races on Sat/Sun on 16+ handicaps going 1/5.

How many of these bookies going 1/4 would lay a place only bets in these 16 runner handicaps.

It's got nothing to do with the Gambling Commission. The change was brought about by the Gambling Act which also created the GC. The removal of standard terms and the GC were created at the same time.

If you want it changing you would need DCMS and government to do something. It doesn't fall within anyone else's remit unless the tracks could enforce it as a commercial deal albeit I understand the barriers to this make that a non starter.

what would possess a bookmaker to lay a 2500/1000 and bet it back at 7/4? why not just take a bet he was comfortable with, ie 500/200 or whatever!

then why do the RCA want to talk to the bookmaker leaders about that very thing , banks
and where is your idea regarding a solution

ego ?
perhaps that question should be addressed to the original topic of this thread !

biggest problem we have 70/40 bookies laying 700/400 putting it back on machine.

then why do the RCA want to talk to the bookmaker leaders about that very thing , banks

I was under the impression that the RCA felt that they couldn't enforce standard place terms as a condition of entry as some would appeal it as being restriction of trade.

If that is not the case then it has to be by far the best route to resolve the issue. Any review of legislation would take a long time and even then it wouldn't guarantee a result.

I actually don't have a major issue with taking 1/5th on these big handicaps when you consider that the top half of the market is very competitive on the win portion in comparison to what you'd get here after commission..and the relationship between the win and place markets on here often translate to 1/5 anyway.  But 1/6 is totally out of order. I think bookmakers should be given a choice; either bet the EW terms set-out by the tracks on the day of racing..or bet win only. The Each Way terms could be fixed by the ring manager when the pitches are done, based on the general 'feel' of the market at that time....a similar mechanism to how the SP deductions for a withdrawn horse works.

I think some of the bookmakers contributing to this thread actually underestimate the awareness of the punter. Most of the punters I've encountered who bet with any semblance of 'weight' do actually have an appreciation of the EW terms on offer. I'd imagine Hazzell's turnover was definitely (negatively) impacted by going 1/6th. His boy on the stool was getting increasingly desperately....

it is probable that the RCA can't enforce standard rigid place terms but they would hope to agree a minimum standard of terms with the bookmakers leaders.
i hope this is the case as the present declining situation is not a pleasant one if allowed to continue

I've asked this question on a previous thread but never got a reply. What % of your take is for a place ?  I bet it's not 20%.  As a to win  punter, I want the best win price and the books going a 1/6, 1/7 etc do  generally, have the best prices.  If books are forced to lay standard terms, then it seems to me that the win only punter will lose out.

deano

depending on the type of race I would say the average place take is 20% max of the win take.

HOWEVER because the latest trend is to hedge back a large chunk of the win proportion it quite often ends up 40% or even 50% of the net hold

in a 13 runner race bdh will bet to a typical 107% in the win market but with his inflated place terms bet to 125% in the place market therby trying to hold as much as possible in the place market whilst getting rid of the less profitable win proportion

red lorry' for my own benefit i have just tallied up my hedging business from my last 10 days work from my "meeting summary printout" stakes received £53214 total hedging/exchange £2330 i make that approx 4% of my field that i have hedged so i find your figures miles off the mark well certainly in my case.

The terms are archaic lads, do your best to get them changed.

flashy
the example was purely 4 the likes of bdh and bonkers
would think "traditional"bookies like your goodself are a lot less than 10% of their take
cheers

deano1961,
from my own experience

6 and 7 runner races.....approx 5% place money
8 and 9 runner races ....approx 33% place money
handicaps...approx 25% place money
ordinary non handicaps , maidens etc...approx 15% place money
bad each way races [ less than 100% place percentage ]....approx 40% place money

an average of 20% is about right but it's how you get to that figure

adgy

think our best guestimates must be very similar re above figures

my earlier comments were to highlight how important the place book is depending on the type of bookmaker :

1] your goodself treats it like a betting shop [excluding the FOBT] taking what comes and may /may not have the favourite as a loser ~ u will probably hedge very little

2] flashy is more traditional and will probably hedge between 5 and 10% of his take as he attempts to make a conventional book ~ in both scenarios the place hold is approx 15/20% of the net hold

3] others may get rid of 40/50% of their take and concentrate on making the place hold maybe 40% or more of what they are holding so it is crucial they maximise their place terms hence the bad press currently being generated

4] others try to green up and hedge 50%+ and don't really give a monkeys cos they will when every race HOWEVER whether or not they win enough every race to cover their fixed and variable costs is another story ~ some do , some are incapable ,some tell porky pies

On what page of the "REGIT school of bookmaking" do i find this please?

it is from the advanced course, section 3 sub-section 4

there will be a practical session taking place on saturday at haydock at quite a reasonable fee I may add 4 those interested in becoming a better bookie

nothing mentioned about how much homework bdh does or how much he bets to opinion enabling him to bet like he does ....oh and hes trying to head hunt me for fighting fifth day rlyl and ive told him im commited lol

Many thanks.

dd
an honourable guy u r

went to fakenham today, first time since 1992 ....bet / worked near that new chap s..... j.....    He agreed to bet sensible and even suggested a higher margin.First time i've really spoke/liased with him ....maybe there is a future after all.
    Bigger than s.p. available all winners , so before the uneducated have a squeal no fleecing took place just common sense for a change.
   And had free entertainment with not only the great Thommo but the legend that is CASHLESS

may well have lived up to his name after THAT race

rlyl did you get anywhere with that portable tablet gaming fobt for your joint,have you applied for the licence yet.

hi knowy hope u r well
prototype nearly finished

Not leading from the front at hexham rlyl?

Not leading from the front at hexham rlyl?

in transit almost as we speak
just diverted chesh from warwick so he can bet in front of us