Bookies Pitches

democrat ,
with the 2012 position and subsequent contracts we fully expected a lively question and answer session which is why it was placed at number one on our agenda.
actually events turned out to be extremely mild to what we , and our invited guests were expecting.
no one , including myself , could ever be happy with the contracts but we have to accept and move on . it WAS the best that could possibly be achieved for everyone however upset some clearly are. i just hope that we do not lose too many friends and colleges because of the outcome.

the RCA will be reading everything in this thread as we know they follow this forum closely . i don't know what they will make of it.so far it has been a fair and forthright selection of views

I think you have answered your own question in a way ribero. On a general point and not in reference to any individual, it is assumed that if people do not overtly declare their opposition to a situation that they are in favour of it. That is not necessarily the case. As you know meetings tend to involve several 'passive' attendees who it is impossible to determine what their real feelings on issues are when votes are not taken.

Thanks adge I fully believe that you as an individual think the outcome WAS the best achievable. I think you have told me previously it's not only the RCA who peruse thes postings - hopefully others will will be reflecting also on some of the very serious issues being made.

Just going back to something posted earlier; there
are NO issues with the Levy Board.

ribero

re chester bet if ever there was a case the gc should have a look at its them,they simply just bend the punter over and ram it right up them.

im a middle number bookmaker.i wasnt particularly thrilled with the deal but after asking around and listening to people i respect im SURE it was the best deal available.i voted for keith,john r,mick eckley and simon (it was him or johns and his age put me off).im not surprised at what happened on sunday.i wasnt a member when keith was elected but it obviously left a lot of resentment.we will never know whether we could of got a better deal but i doubt it.regarding bookmakers with bad numbers,this might be the straw that breaks the camels back,but in the last 3 years 2 of my best friends on the racecourse have had to chuck it BEFORE THE DEAL CAME INTO PLACE.ive a mate oncourse now who clears £60 A DAY.with an increase of approx.£35 a day hes in trouble but in my opinion it would only have been a matter of time anyway.hindsight is an amazing thing and its pretty obvious that the makeup of the negotiating team might have been better with a bookmaker with higher numbers involved(he would not neccesarily have achieved anything but the perception might have been different).i was angry after the vote on sunday,but that was probably exactly how people felt 3 years ago.i will be there next year(all things being equall)and wish the present board well.

jimnast,i'm sure many more got asked apart from me and they seemed like genuine punters who were genuinely dissaponted that these bets were not available.
on a different note re the meeting,the funniest thing was when bennett got up and starting banging on about his support for replenishments (surprise,surprise) so keith asked for a show of hands for or against,no prizes for guessing whose was the only hand to go up in support of mr bennett!

As an outsider it is fairly obvious to me that ye are paying too much to bet.
Paying money to the Gambling Commission for some unknown service
Allowing the Tote operate without paying the same expenses as yourselves
Failing to get concessions such as free entry for staff,surely that's a given,do the catering staff pay in?
The overall point is the racecourses want bookmakers for atmosphere that should be your trump card,ye are allowed to negotiate down as well as up.

in answer to someones question earlier , the attendance on sunday was arround 115 including the top table.
it would have been pleasant if more than just 20 or so had stayed for the FREE bar and a social chat with the chairman and directors in the time afterwards. in the " good old days " that how it used to be.
we over budgeted considerably for the bar bill

wildman i pay the gc a 4 figure sum each year and i honestly dont have a clue what its for.

i am for the agt but if they are reading this thread i would like all brms to make sure the display of e/w terms are very clear no excuses i dont think thats a lot to ask.

appologies adge,didnt want to say something i might regret.im lying RYDER CUPmy wife chris who loves her sport wanted to know the rules after we had won the first 5 matches.definately in my top 3 sporting achievments.

Foxy - You mean do something for the salary?

good grief adge i wished ide joined your mob now dont like the sound of refreshments been over budgeted for.

"we over budgeted considerably for the bar" i find that slightly surprising adge looking at 1 or 2 who were present.you make a valid point though but as stated earlier unfortunately for many it was just a 3 line whip to turn up and vote and not be seen again,i normally hang around a bit (not far to go) but with no disrespect to most of the room i had heard enough from 1 or 2 already.

rr

i would be a start,in fairness there is one who is very good and doesnt have favourites.

yes REGIT , rest assured that in two years time the meeting will definately not clash with the ryder cup sunday [ i may need your vote ]

Adge
I've read this post with interest without coming on but let's be serious.Did you honestly expect people to stay & sup that rubbish that was on?
Surely if that's the best ale they can put on you've got to look for another venue.

i agree foxy.lets get them doing more.(not sure what there allowed to do.)
1.if a horse is withdrawn and there will be a rule 4. they should be walking round the ring so they can stop any problems quickly.
2.after last race be visible so any lost tickets etc.
3.sort brollies.are we allowd to advertise or not.(ive just bought 2 new ones after seeing the error of my ways)
4.SORT EW TERMS OUT.THEY MUST BE CLEAR AND VISIBLE.

finally congrats to market rasen sat. a course that i think has lost the plot but on saturday kept pushing the gold flag.

agreed , allpoints lol , there was black sheep on hand pump in the other bar [ enjoyed one with lunch ].
will have to work on that side for next year

regit the umbrella situation is a farce already,nice to hear rasen plugging the gold flag most racecourses have badly let that idea down.

ribero .multi pitches in the ring is something that interest me.i think its a bit like having the first electric boards.one on the rails and one in the ring O.K. busy days spread out O.K.
thisk -midweek.
14 books but only 9 bookmakers?surely everyone would be better with just 9 books or is the idea to make it unworkable for the rest(its worked on me im not going midweek)
the bit that i find bizarre and you dont do is different names.my idea regarding "TED HORNBY" is to give a good service and try and get repeat businness. stan and chris are good at this and it works.we bet gold flag and keep grafting away.why have a different pitch with a different name unless you actually think one pitch is impacting on the other.BIZZARE.

regit,you make some good points re how much of a struggle it is for some,people may obviously take this the wrong way because of my pitches but frankly i don't have a lot of sympathy for most of them.there are obvious exceptions,take a lad like dave cheshire,he is trying his damdest to make a go of something he loves on limited funds and i have the upmost respect for him,he has come in and learnt the game properly.but as we keep saying times are very hard etc but too many expect to turn up,stick their head in the computer and put everything a notch under here and bob's your uncle,they don't want to give anyone a bet and some of the custome service to punters when the red light is flashing is appalling,we all have to adjust and to those who are really struggling if they don't already maybe have a look at the card for starters and when fallon is riding at york realise you don't have to go the price on here to get a bet for example.
i might be lucky twice over as i genuinely still love looking at the card although 90% of the time someone on here has beat you to it.other little things can be tried,find a horse that travels well or badly and act accordingly before the race and during it.
ok hardly earth shattering stuff but it's hard work for us all (had a shocking week last week)but things have evolved and probably the only good thing about the lack of business is that you can't rely on this place to get you the money.

headlice ,why the interest in missile ?? jayne was there and voted ,but is a member !!

ribero three of the books you describe are now on the board !!
overheard at redcar ,as someone asked for 35/10 ,one of our directers looked and saw flashing ,sorry i cant take that bet ,my computer has stuck

adge ,how on earth was the bar budget not spent !! the 7 ladies in the bar on free ale all afternoon must have spent enough for everyone !! 3 of them were legless , including my better half !!!

point of order.free bar for non members.

daniel.did you get any of fredbets 2/1 europe.tiger woods "pick it up"funniest thing for ages.as you know i dont bother anymore but £40 for nothing.

bit isolated down south, what committee? what meeting? what venue?

who are all these people with only initials.

great banter by the way, but, just banter, nothing will change

exactly BD,regit agree with you about the names although i am wary of betting next to myself so am giving it a bit of thought but would only use in emergencies,as for the 9 books i think we all know it wouldn't be 9 don't we!

sorry BD,it was the northern agm last sunday when an attempt to get keith johnson voted off was narrowly defeated.

Regarding the trading names, I only use my alternate trading name when I have 2 pitches next to each other.  If both look identical then the punters ignore the second one which makes having 2 pitches pointless.

loads on @ 2/1 with fred, £80 hills @ 5/2 !!
had given it up

as you know regit ,my wife is a member !!

just had a look at redcar silver DM,half the board bet there,it was obviously adge,lol.

THE REASON A LOT OF ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS HAVE GOT THERE BACKS UP OVER OUR LEADERS NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE RACECOURSES IS THE FACT THAT ANY NEGOTIATIONS HAVE TO BE SEEN TO BE FAIR,TRANSPARENT AND OPEN,THAT PATENTLY WASNT THE CASE.

You've nailed it TRUTH. Being fair is one thing being seen to be fair another. Minutes of meetings would be a huge aide in this regard.

Moving forward everybody needs to modernise that is a fact and that includes the associations that represent bookmakers..... You need to be on the button finger on the pulse call it what you like.....   

How you can re-elect somebody to a board whom is well past their sell by date - He can only just about use a computer (sorry if you are looking in John) smacks of desperation and brings the association no credibility at all........   this is a point I feel that has been overlooked thus far.......  The deal has been done as people have said it cannot be changed, what is needed moving forward is a strong and fair representative body to fight the battles for their members that lie ahead.

hear hear

rr

THE DEAL HAS BEEN DONE, BUT GOING FORWARD THE DEALS WILL BE CHANGED - DOES ANYBODY SEE ANYTHING OTHER THAN DECLINE IN THE MIDWEEK ON COURSE BETTING MARKET ? SURELY IT WILL NOT BE LONG BEFORE RACECOURSES OFFER CONCESSIONS FOR BOOKMAKERS TO ATTEND.

INTHEKNOW,THE QUESTION IS IF ELECTED,UNLIKE THE CURRENT SITUATION,WOULD U MAKE SURE EVERYONE ELSE WAS "INTHEKNOW"????????????

Lol The Truth -  Mug-Bookie..... If any concessions are offered they should be discussed with the board and then the board come back to all it's members as TheTruth says and discussed with each and every one of them ......... none of this boll** we are dealing with sensitive information e.t.c e.t.c so it cannot be discussed, Sensitive to who? 

Thats right the 200+ people you are supposed to be representing and putting their best interests forward and discussing ideas amongst them...

LETS BE HONEST RR - ON COURSE BOOKIES COULD NOT AGREE ON THE PRICE OF FISH - NEVER HAVE DONE

if possible, yes

HERE HERE RR

i think one or two are way over estimating how much some racecourses value our presence,they are not all Edward Gillespie who incidentally has posted a splendid letter on the agt website,top guy.

Tim you are right about jimmy saville. where and when is your next race meeting as i would like to meet you there before racing.to have a friendly chat about the issues we have between us.Phil

OZZIEBOB,I WILL BE AT BANGOR TOMMOROW,AND UTTOX ON SUNDAY,LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING U.

AGREED RIBERO - RACECOURSES - NEVER A BETTER EXAMPLE OF BITING THE HAND THAT HELPS FEED YOU ! GOOD LUCK TO MR GILLESPIE, A TRUE RACING MAN THROUGH AND THROUGH

i'm probably betting next to you on sunday , democrat , so think up a few more questions

Have any of the people asking for change in the associations and for stronger representation put themselves forward to serve?  Its easy to say 'better' and 'stronger', its what we all strive for.  Its the ones who give up their time and put themselves about who get anything done.

WASNOT,CAN U EXPLAIN WHY(IN MOST CASES) THE ONES THAT PUT THEMSELVES FORWARD IN MOST CASES HAPPEN TO BE MILLIONAIRES??????

I've served on committees for 24 years.  My Dad served for over 30 years before me.  Not millionaires.

Thinking about the majority on the board, very few are.  You'll always find some as its a fun hobby if you've got plenty, but I can't think of any who made their millions out of bookmaking.

Perhaps the reason they are millionaires is because they get off their arses and do something about businesses in which they operate?

Wassy you are quite correct of the selct few, many have made their wealth outside of racecourse bookmaking, I am a capitalist at heart and believe that anybody whom risks their own funds in a venture deserves to prosper in the main.

However what cannot be right is that you then invest vast sums in a different business i.e racecourse bookmaking and then use a position of power to seek to seek to try and protect that investment to the possible exclusion of others, by putting your own agenda first or acting upon information that others are not in possession off

Where in the real/commercial world does that not happen RR?  I think racecourse bookmaking is pretty clean in that respect compared to most industries!

Wassy - I hope for one minute by your above comment that you are not suggesting this does go on within the leaders that are supposed to represent ALL bookmakers

I am sure it goes on alot in the real/commercial world - Doesn't make it right though does it?

THRUTH ,
it must be the way such as paul dolan bets that makes him one of your millionaire directors.
myself , i come from a very low working class family , my father maintained steam locomotives and died early due to asbestos related issues but got no compensation.
i started in third rings betting somewhere near the toilets.

exactly wasnot,as far as i know everybody goes into this game with their eyes open,you get the impression that some on here think it's the better picks fault that the lesser picks are getting worse,the whole ring has deteriorated for various reasons.

Rib - I don't think so most are accepting of the fact, you could see what was happening some time ago, however if you are of the opinion that it is the right of Pick 35 to still turn up and try and graft anway, some are of the opinion that by right that choice has been taken away from him, Ok yes we all know he can still turn up but it has been made virtually impossible to do so through no fault of his own, hence only increasing the value of the investments in the higher numbers.   Some may say that if Pick 35 is only an arber having everything back on the machine then that is fine but that is not the point either really

In Ireland on-course bookies bet 3% per runner(apart from group races on tv)

how come?

they're just better operators?

Increased fees from the racecourse's negotiators.
Marketing fees from the racecourse's negotiators.

What have those in good picks done again?

I know from our directors' updates that both these were strenuously argued against over a period of many months by our team.  I know that it will be accused that it wasn't argued strongly enough but in my eyes it most certainly was.

The top books have little sympathy for their fellow books
who could have bought up and protected THEMSELVES fair enough
Seems some of the top books are concerned  about bald freddie maximising
the EX-TOTE protential
HE COULD SAY everyone new the tote was up for sale
none of the top books TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUY UP!
now get on with it

May I, as a punter, interject on your discussion - I know nothing of the politics involved here but if you have better men than Johnny Ridley representing you then you have little to worry about ........

However, I very much doubt that is the case ......

On a more serious issue, ive had to go to the post office as a letter addressed to myself had insufficient postage. I paid the £1.19 and received the large envelope. Inside were my 2 returned JCR contracts at Cheltenham and Warwick - the only postage on the large envelope was a small 2nd class stamp.

The irony is that i only returned my warwick contract as a freepost envelope had been, if id known this would have happend id have saved the contract for my Chimnea

crepello ,
hear hear ..it just leaves you shaking your head in disbelief sometimes

barry dennis......id say you will find that irish operators are not better operators......if they are betting to 30% a runner it wouldnt matter......they dont have any turnover.......the game in Ireland is ten times worse than the UK.......its so far gone that its thinking of coming back......

davy,i have just sent my license back to wetherby by special delivery as requested,£6.35 for 1 1/2 miles!

I wont respond to your 'betting next door' comment adge. You'll see why on Sunday !! As for you starting outside the toilets - another touch - you caught them queueing up on the way in and those you missed you got on the way out !! I'm pleased to see you moved up and graduated to 'the tap' !!!

rr,all i'm saying is that business has gone down everywhere,hence plenty having 2 pitches to compensate,we are all in the same boat,it was never ever easy in the poorer picks something i'm sure wasnot can tell you all about.
the only way i can see improvement is if the schedule y went back to staff from that firm only then you would have less books on occassions and the higher picks would get moves up. i take advantage of schedule y but would be more than happy to relenquish it.

must wash you hands afterwards,
betting next to the tap at goodwood was a prime pitch in those days.
haven't been to huntingdon at all this year. sure to be good this sunday.

Schedule Y is a joke ! When 'misused' denies deserving cases a rightful move up ! Also a mechanism that enables pitch renting.

'Sure to be good' ? Dream on adge or alternatively start drinking lower gravity beer !!!

no good trying to keep me away ...i'm going to THREE meetings there in the next six weeks.
looking forward to newmarket on saturday , too. how much must you have got last saturday with all eight favs getting beat

dunno what number you are, but monster move up, cant find anyone going

Last Saturday at Newmarket - if you'd had a scatter gun you would not have hit a punter !! Ascot would be the place for you Sat. adge - a Beer Festival ( and it's a very good one ) + racing ! I dont suppose your fav. bookie was at the NBA AGM was he  ? If he's still a member that is !!!

RR
When pick 35 turns up at most midweek meetings he is usually betting out of pick 12, with pick 98 betting beside him in pick 13. Doesn't this tell you something about the game?

exactly porfavor,i have talked to several "good" pick holders recently who all  have come to the conclusion that we could make more money than we do at the moment by going less.in fact i was talking to someone on sunday who has cut out the "off" days completely and has only had 3 losing days all year,2nd only to regit no doubt!

stan somers ?

No !!! JW !!

?

JW = jack wilson , not there ,each way terms not even brought up either

if your suggestion is right adge they must be genius's as they turn up all over with fairly average picks.perhaps they could offer lessons to the average picks who think they are getting a raw deal?

Went to bath races last monday.Only 7 bookmakers on the rail.Of those seven,three pitchs were run by onefirm.If the game is that badhow can one bookmaker cover all those expenses. Is this close to a monopoly situation .

Genuine question for the good guys! could a bookmaker make it pay over the winter working pitches in the middle numbers? standing on the end of front lines or second lines, not looking to be a millionaire just to get a wage

In answer to smurphy@s question....No.

as the only days i go racing in december , january and february are december 1st [ newbury ]26th and 27th [ wetherby ] in slightly better numbers than that the answer is obvious.
but good luck to anybody who tries

you could always buy one at Kempton or Wolver and actually bet in a good position

I think adge is showing that he is selective off picks that are reasonably prominent. One consideration you might wish to make smurph is the configuration of the ring i.e. is it a straight line or a block of two or more lines. Access points to the Ring are also relevant thus there is not a catchall answer to your question.

Adge - hope you dont think im being too nosey but can a book make enough in the march-november period to cover no income the other months?

you can also cross out most of november , too.
i don't think i'm really bragging but i make a good living every year and am normally on holiday for those three months
of course , i have very little money back on here unlike most

i also spend a good deal of time studying the form book in preparation and watching the races . some just turn up and don't even know a runner

ADGE,THE NEXT DAY I COULDNT TELL U A RESULT,ITS UNCANNY HOW THESE HORSES SEEM TO RUN WELL WHEN THEY ARE BACKED,YET THE VAST MAJORITY OF DRIFTERS U CANT FIND EM WITH RADAR,IMO FORM COUNTS FOR LITTLE,MONEY TALKS,ASK BARNEY CURLEY.

a sad but very honest reply from fm and one that would be appropriate for the majority these days

Are you saying you adopt a punter's mentatility adge ? Would that explain you losing on some occasions when a rank outsider wins and a hot favourite gets beaten ?

Oops try mentality !

Adge is correct and therefore a successful oncourse bookmaker.Majority of oncourse layers are lazy and have no idea of trainers/jockeys/form. Before betfair i had to price up all races only for the lazy frontline books to copy.Now they think the exchanges which are priced up by gamblers are the correct tissue.Pathetic reply from factmachine re Barney Curley, he is a one off not the norm.

HarryHandi • October 5, 2012 11:12 AM BST
Now they think the exchanges which are priced up by gamblers are the correct tissue.

Really?

No owners, trainers, jockeys, then?

or footballers.
shouldn't you be at the seaside today or couldn't you get up in time ?

Owners, possibly, but most owners i know usually have to ask a form man to tell them what price they should be.Trainers are too busy to be backing/laying on here so would only go as so far as telling others who then price up accordingly, jockeys, dont make me laugh,they have enough to worry about with stop n go decisions and many of them prefer fobts on the days off rather than forming a tissue.Pro punters provide the tissue to bookies for free nowadays.