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Not stayer or not would have won if not allowing the winner to block him in.
Wait for the "He just ran a bit flat" line from Joseph...
Yet again ...... and some people think they can win at this game ....................... master class of how to get a triple crown winner beaten.
What an idiot.. How can you be so stupid, ruined a horses reputation and taken a couple of million off his value
Horse wasn't good enough on the day. Was close eough if good enough
Francome reckons the horse was not moving right,right next excuse then any offers.
looks like theres a lot on here know f uck all about racing
Cringing listening to C4 falling over themselves to come up with any excuse other than "O'Brien sat too long and let himself get boxed in at a crucial stage".
The horse stayed well enough to take 2 lengths out of the winner in the final 300 yards Custer.
Perhaps Encke did not stay?
Perhaps Encke did not stay?
custer your looking for an argument that has no backing what is it they call it trolling?
will they interview the winning trainer at some point ?
ridden a bit closer and more positive it would beat encke if re run,think jockey treated it like a steering job
ridden like a non stayer certainly, never closer than at the finish - should have been closer to pace and ridden on assumption that trip was n't an issue otherwise why bother running?
That's not necessarily a criticism of the jockey and I have n't had a bet.
That's not necessarily a criticism of the jockey and I have n't had a bet.
If you ran that race a 1000 times Camelot might win it once. If a suffragette brought Encke down.
On the close-up replay he was on the winner's arse going well. The winner found immediately and the runner-up didn't. Sitting on a 2000 guineas winner one could hardly blame JOB for expecting his horse to pick up when he wanted.
the horse stays just fine, the jockey made a a right pigs ear of it, left him far too much to do.
surely he must get the chop as ballydoyle no1 now? the lad's too young, he cant handle it and dare i say he's not up to it.
surely he must get the chop as ballydoyle no1 now? the lad's too young, he cant handle it and dare i say he's not up to it.
Didn't stay? He was running on best of all at the finish!
The jockey screwed up, simple as. He has ridden some excellent races, some on this horse, but today wasn't one of them.
I had no financial interest so not pocket talking, just disappointed for the horse.
The jockey screwed up, simple as. He has ridden some excellent races, some on this horse, but today wasn't one of them.
I had no financial interest so not pocket talking, just disappointed for the horse.
For those of you who said he didnt stay,i think you was watching a different race.He was given a poor ride that kept him boxed in with no daylight.Once the horse could see infront of itself it got going,but was too late.Obviously over an extended trip he wasnt going to quicken up as fast as he did in the Derby.All in all a poor ride,over a trip long enough to get a good position.
OP got it right first time! OUTRIDDEN. Would beat the winner any time, over same trip with a "jockey" aboard.
Yeah just overconfidence didn't get it rolling early wanted to win like Nijinsky did - the winners actually bred to be a better horse though
"Too much to do"?
When it got out it was only a length behind but it's head went up. It wouldn't have it.
When it got out it was only a length behind but it's head went up. It wouldn't have it.
slow early pace was in camelot's favour - the lad was far too cocky - thought he could take all the time in the world when he should have been getting the horse closer to the pace.
poor ride, poor of judge of pace, he's not up to the job.
poor ride, poor of judge of pace, he's not up to the job.
AIDEN IS FUMING HE KNOWS YOUNG JOSEPH BLEW IT !!
Camelot was on the winner's quarters and got left behind. No excuses.
johnwark
Joined: 27 Jan 02
Replies: 1008 15 Sep 12 15:51
when francome compared him to Lester earlier I thought I was tripping
Joined: 27 Jan 02
Replies: 1008 15 Sep 12 15:51
when francome compared him to Lester earlier I thought I was tripping
Didn't look very quick to me, GC. Got blocked in when he should not have, that's all.
The best horse on the day won BOTTOM LINE not a great ride but not the reason he got beat IMO
Encke won fair and square. Yes, got first run/better ridden on the day - but that's how it works in the 100s of races that happen every day, Classics or otherwise.
Camelot remains an extreme top-notcher and a fantastic horse - and I would have loved him to have won and achieved the Triple Crown. Joseph rode him well, covered up and produced for speed, but horse not quite good enough on the day, between them
C'est la vie!
Celebrate Encke & Camelot.
Camelot remains an extreme top-notcher and a fantastic horse - and I would have loved him to have won and achieved the Triple Crown. Joseph rode him well, covered up and produced for speed, but horse not quite good enough on the day, between them
C'est la vie!
Celebrate Encke & Camelot.
the first 3f was slow but after that it was quick
probably send Fame and Glory off like Frankel in the Guineas in a couple of hours.
interviewing the losing trainer before the winning, totally classless
Anyone who thinks the horse didn't stay needs to pack the game up and very very quickly
Francome don't half talk some shyte. Runner-up in a classic but looks an ordinary horse, apparently 
all joseph needed to do was keep tabs with the leaders - found himself hemmed in and it's his fault - no one else rode the horse. the lad messed up and i have to wonder what ballydoyle are thinking making this child their number one jock - it's weird.
imo johnny murtagh and fallon would have won this race today - they would have made 100% certain the horse was close enough and had every eventuality covered.
imo johnny murtagh and fallon would have won this race today - they would have made 100% certain the horse was close enough and had every eventuality covered.
Very few top jockeys would have got the horse beaten
Matt Chapman has it spot on. The winner was ridden much earlier on and had the vital momentum at the correct stage of the race. The jockey on Camelot seemed to expect to find an instant turn of foot, when that didn't happen the winner had already kicked clear and nicked the race.
Anyone who suggests that he doesn't stay after seeing him finish a close up second is a complete tossing idiot!!
With a half decent ride he wins and as Matt C. explained you don't ride without momentum JOB is a kid given a mans job. Ruined the record of Camelot for ever.
With a half decent ride he wins and as Matt C. explained you don't ride without momentum JOB is a kid given a mans job. Ruined the record of Camelot for ever.
My software that tracks the distance between the horse's chin and the floor went like this for Camelot
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That was as clear a case of the jockey messing up as you will see. Camelot was EASILY the best horse in THAT race. Correct highlander, a real jockey would have won that doing handsprings. JOB has gotten great encouragement from all those around him at Ballydoyle. Spoilt child syndrome has led to overconfidence (arrogance). He needs strong criticism when he messes up.
i think you'll find that jo'b is replaced as number one for next season - they gave him ago but obviously he's not ready.
O Brien has to acknowlege that the boy is to in experienced for the number 1 job at Ballydoyle how can he be at 19,
He picked up against milers!
JOB has ridden him the same way every race, why would he change tactics today? I suspect people are being fooled by the horse looking boxed in for a while early but it didn't affect the result. JOB was have sat on the bridle for as long as he could, whatever position he held in the race.
JOB has ridden him the same way every race, why would he change tactics today? I suspect people are being fooled by the horse looking boxed in for a while early but it didn't affect the result. JOB was have sat on the bridle for as long as he could, whatever position he held in the race.
Young lad attempting to do a man's job.I would bet my bottom dollar Johnny Murtagh and a heap more of top pros w
ould have given us a triple crown hero.Simple fact is the boy is adequate at best and no more.
ould have given us a triple crown hero.Simple fact is the boy is adequate at best and no more.
Rode a waiting race on a stayer off a slow pace and the winner got first run - simple. A relatively inexperienced jock will **** up sooner or later and today was the day - but blood is thicker than water. Can you imagine Piggott or Cauthen getting that beaten - think not?
Have a look at the 2000 again DUNE and see where Camelot is positioned in the race 3f out. AGAINST MILERS.
He very nearly got Camelot into trouble in the Irish Derby as well. But for the class of the horses he rides, his limitations would be more obvious. (Only at this stage of his career - he has EVERY chance of learning and becoming good (although i personally do think he will be too big very soon)
O Brien still sat motionless for approx two seconds after Barzalona had made his move. Should have reacted immediately. He didn't, that cost him the race. He must have been thinking of CBBC programmes later on. Cocked up without ANY doubt.
Dont know how Lester kept a straight face when Francombe described Joseph as a carbon copy of himself in their interview
Poster on "other" thread got it right. JOB was asleep.
I have just watched the replay. The winner was asked to go and win by the jockey almost 14 seconds before Camelot was. I have no doubt that if Camelot was asked for his effort 5 seconds earlier he would have won the race.
Thought his horse was unbeatable.Looked like he thought he would win easy,so was not
....prepared to get serious with Camelot until it was too late.
When you find trouble in running it's the jockey's fault.
Would he have won with a better ride?
I don't know but he wasn't given much chance losing ground like that.
The jockey seemed to expect the horse to quicken up, but he was too far behind if it didn't.
Very poor ride.
Would he have won with a better ride?
I don't know but he wasn't given much chance losing ground like that.
The jockey seemed to expect the horse to quicken up, but he was too far behind if it didn't.
Very poor ride.
"When you find trouble in running it's the jockey's fault"
Not always,usually due to circunstances.
In this case I think it was jockey error.
Not always,usually due to circunstances.
In this case I think it was jockey error.
Surprisingly little credit given to the winning jockey for his intelligent maneuver, thread title says it all imho.
Agree he may not have won if he was ridden better but probably would have.What today showed,was that he has either rapidly deteriorated or he is very good but not one of the greats.If he went to the arc and frankel ran.I would expect Frankel to do to him what he has done to every other horse he has run against.
everybody knocking the jockey just watched replay and when he asked for an effort camelot didnt look happy seemed to flash his tail and didnt look like he wanted to let himself down maybe horse hurting somewhere also when he did go it was hardly dancing brave and starkey was it, he wasnt flashing home possibly gone to the well once to often with this fella and it wasnt a bad run but i do think camelots starting to think about his racing imo time to retire
^he's only had 6 races in his life including today.
The horse has probably not even reached his peak yet, imo. Lets hope at least that he stays in training next year now that they won't have to dodge Frankel.
Jockey aside, Camelot looked very impressive today IMHO. I also think the winners - horse and jockey - were very good.
JOB was poor and he must know it himself. He got boxed in. Stuck with his down the rail line, until the pacemakers died in front of him. He miss-timed his effort by a huge margin, delaying by close to 15 seconds. When he did finally decided that it was time to drive, he simultaneously jinked the horse to the right and took a long time to get the horse straightened and balanced (same as he did at the Curragh on Derby day). It appeared that he didn't consider that the other horses could be a challenge.
He probably felt he could win effortlessly on the bridle, hands and heels. When you're riding a hyped up horse it's not good enough to 'just win' these days. You have to win with consummate ease. Look at Black Caviar. We can only guess at what riding instructions he was given.
JOB was poor and he must know it himself. He got boxed in. Stuck with his down the rail line, until the pacemakers died in front of him. He miss-timed his effort by a huge margin, delaying by close to 15 seconds. When he did finally decided that it was time to drive, he simultaneously jinked the horse to the right and took a long time to get the horse straightened and balanced (same as he did at the Curragh on Derby day). It appeared that he didn't consider that the other horses could be a challenge.
He probably felt he could win effortlessly on the bridle, hands and heels. When you're riding a hyped up horse it's not good enough to 'just win' these days. You have to win with consummate ease. Look at Black Caviar. We can only guess at what riding instructions he was given.
If they retire him now it will be seen as an admittance that he's not got the right constitution.
Hopefully he'll either run in the Arc or/and remain in training as a 4-y-o.
Hopefully he'll either run in the Arc or/and remain in training as a 4-y-o.
Looking at it again I'm not sure that Camelot wasn't beaten by a better horse on the day.
Camelot was certainly slower picking up than the winner.
The winner was worth more than the winning distance imo.
Camelot was certainly slower picking up than the winner.
The winner was worth more than the winning distance imo.
Liseten,listen.listen,listen,listen,listen,listen,listen,listen.
winner was very impressive, will probably be overlooked - anybody remember who won when Shergar got beaten in the race? (without looking it up)
Camelot stayed - no doubt in that. But the winner hadn't come to the end of his tether, and i think Barza had a bit up his sleeve if necessary.
Camelot had enough time to pick up the winner, so the slagging of JOB is a bit OTT.
Camelot had enough time to pick up the winner, so the slagging of JOB is a bit OTT.
Camelot closed up to within a length of a very good winner, despite taking an age to get going. If the race was another 100 metres or so, camelot may have gotten up. It was left with way too much to do. It doesn't take a big stretch to imagine a seasoned pro (Fallon, Kinane, Murtagh) winning that one with loads in hand.
Yes TG but it wasn't another 100 metres further.
And it wasn't 100 metres shorter either, working it out like that is not correct, because jockeys start their runs fully aware of where the winning post is.
You could say if it had been 100 metres shorter then Camelot would have been beat further, but as I said it doesn't work like that.
And it wasn't 100 metres shorter either, working it out like that is not correct, because jockeys start their runs fully aware of where the winning post is.
You could say if it had been 100 metres shorter then Camelot would have been beat further, but as I said it doesn't work like that.
Not a flat punter at all but seen race numerous times. Should have won if he got it out a little earlier but having said that got say it's a little dissapointing for a horse thats won a Guineas not to be able to quicken up better than that in a slowly run affair.
Yes, he should have won but don't think he'd have looked impressive by any means if he did get a better ride.
Yes, he should have won but don't think he'd have looked impressive by any means if he did get a better ride.
Dr Crippen, i had hoped that it would be obvious that i was speaking hypothetically.
"jockeys start their runs fully aware of where the winning post is".
That's my point exactly. The jockey decides, not the horse. He messed up, not the horse. He started his run much too late. Camelot was very impressive today.
"jockeys start their runs fully aware of where the winning post is".
That's my point exactly. The jockey decides, not the horse. He messed up, not the horse. He started his run much too late. Camelot was very impressive today.
Okay TG but the winner went to the front when the pace would have been at its fastest, and he showed a good turn of foot to do it.
That was were the race was won.
He had the winning turn of foot on the day.
That was were the race was won.
He had the winning turn of foot on the day.
sorry lads but totally agree with dr crippen, best jockey stole race by kicking from the front jockey on camelot was not alert enough to that fact and even though camelot did close had to much ground to make up,
tomorrow joseph will still have a job
camelot will end up down the road at coolmore sooner or later
the stud fee might be 5000 euro cheaper but i doubt it
the brochure won't say triple crown winner but they won't mention it anyhow
when joseph's the trainer, someone will remind him of this day as he saddles a son of camelot and he'll say "listen"
camelot will end up down the road at coolmore sooner or later
the stud fee might be 5000 euro cheaper but i doubt it
the brochure won't say triple crown winner but they won't mention it anyhow
when joseph's the trainer, someone will remind him of this day as he saddles a son of camelot and he'll say "listen"
It was an awful ride,the jockey cost the horse the race,the best horse finished 2nd
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