Excelebration 5/1 on course?????????

Chapman says the bookies don't know what they're doing, of course they know what they're doing, even Worthaad is shortening dramatically 20/1 now was freely available at 33/1 this morning when Frankel was 2/11.

Gangsters.

i bet 1/8 [ opened 1/7 ] and 8/1 bar
full 1/5th odds a place and lost £140 on places. don't believe these silly betting shows you see sent to the shops . they are nonsense

I would imagine most on course layers would have been win only.

they were , feltfair , and win only you could get 11/1 and 12/1 bar but the shows sent to the offices relect each way bookmakers but that 5/1 is , in my opinion ,an embarassment to our industry , apart from not representing the truth if you looked about

a lot of                    southern bookmakers are w..ters

wa.kers

there are also alot of northern ones down here too

the shows and SP were blatently false ,to protect the off course books (and of course the levy )

What was your place book % adge?

the shows and SP were blatently false ,to protect the off course books

NAP

When I spoke to adge as he priced up he was 79% on the places.

hiya wassie ,hows it going so far ?

11/2 excelebration, 17.00 on here, say no more, shameful.

it is disgraceful chelsea ,the shows and SP s bare no resemblance to the on course prices

Hi DM - was behind going into the last but luckily forgot to lay the winner!  Did it in on Dawn Approach (4 monkeys )

At the off I was 14/1 Excelebration but I was win only.  These races are impossible to bet on EW.  Hats off to adge for letting the punters have his cash, I wouldn't do it.

i would think the 140 was more than made up for by his win book

Win only I held 38 quid.  Had 1 for 900, 2 for 400 and 3 for about 200.  Profit on race, 38 quid.

Adge is a very brave man with a 79% place book.

Come racing......

What was the biggest bet you lads layed today?

ps keep up the good work lads, always a good read post meeting from adge and the like..

They bet to 138% in the first today which tells you all you need to know about the grip the parasites have on the game. Combine that with what Adge relates from the track and you have 6 months worth of advertising material for Betfair

lustrumm clearly hasn't grasped the difference between a betting exchange and a bookmaker.
Welcome aboard lustrumm,close your eyes and enjoy the ride!

I was 105% on the win market on course lustrumm.

I would also add that adge was betting to 79% on the places and accepting place only bets.

From where I was, it did not seem the bookies were taking many bets, one board was showing 1/7th place terms on that race

sorry , been out to eat.
i bet to 122% on the win book.

as regards lustrumms thoughts re this exchange and course books , maybe you should look at the place market sp on here which compared to my course book is laughable.
the tote returns are even worse.

the first race was used as a loss leader. many stayed with me all day

We stood at ascot yesterday and Bet to average of 80% on the 1st race betting to 1/5 odds a place couldn't really win but as adge says loss leader! If we get a similar race and any of you forumites want to come and stand with me using your own money and going near exchange prices on the boards betting ew 1/5 please contact me. It will be a short and very painful experience!

Adge, the place market on the first race was always close to 300% on here.  There's nothing laughable about that.

What price was excelebration in the place only market on here out of interest?

I think it was about 1/3.

Excelebration was between 1.36 to 1.4 most of the day.

Rich will you are missing the fact that bet fairs plce Market isn't linked to win Market that's why the 2nd fav was 18s on the win Market yet 3s on in the place Market, by your calcs it should have been 100/30 in place Market! You do the maths!

So what price do you want these on course parasites to offer then Stewarty? 16/1 for the win and 3.2/1 for a place? It's easy to moan about excelebration only returning 5/1 but the on course are offering even money for a place something that's 1/3 on the exchange. My firm were there and they opened 13/2 excelebration and never went below 11/2 at full odds a place. Needless to say, worse place book you could imagine

henlowphil,  I've been laying books on the place market for the last nine years, I know what the maths are.  Where have I said anything about my calcs?

For them to return 1/10,5/1,10/1,20/1 twice is absolutely scandalous.

nothinbutthetruth
20 Jun 12 10:41
Joined:
03 Feb 11
| Topic/replies: 24 | Blogger: nothinbutthetruth's blog
So what price do you want these on course parasites to offer then Stewarty? 16/1 for the win and 3.2/1 for a place? It's easy to moan about excelebration only returning 5/1 but the on course are offering even money for a place something that's 1/3 on the exchange. My firm were there and they opened 13/2 excelebration and never went below 11/2 at full odds a place. Needless to say, worse place book you could imagine





nothinbutthetruth, 11/2 on course at 11/2 and 1/3 a place on here are two different things, as you well know.

Would your firm gave 1/3 the 2nd FAV a place only? I doubt it.

Couldnt lose @ those prices on the win book.
Do your bollax & more on the place market.
E/w Excelebration was a no win situation for the books showed 1.35/1.4 here
but was really 1.2 shot for a place only.

I wasn't slagging thew on course boys (I was one myself back in the day) but the off course firms and the sham of only averaging 12 boards prices for shows. Why not a full average of all books and if guys are out of line let the on course reps put them in line with money, not by rigging the market.

Anyway if any one had any cop on oncourse they would bet without in that race and hold some money. Could always stick a price for Frankel beside it if one wanted to lay the odds on.

going 11/2 a 20/1 shot only makes the game look stupid

going 11/2 a 20/1 shot only makes the game look stupid




Well said.

My mate who owns a few bookies cleaned up on the first race in the shops, nobody of course bet the winner and all the eejits were taking the 5/1 and 10/1 strong suit win only as 90% of punters bet win only anyway, and as for the few shrewdies who bet the 2nd fav ew they were stitched up as well with the ridiculous sp returns. He couldn"t beleive how the off course bookies were able to manipulate the returns and thinks now they have been able to do it once will b an encoursgement to rig the books in the future, poor old in shop punter is being ripped of every way possible no wonder the shops r dying a death.

He couldn"t beleive how the off course bookies were able to manipulate the returns and thinks now they have been able to do it once will b an encoursgement to rig the books in the future


You live a very sheltered life.

Never cant believe that off course books trying to manipulate SPS?

It is important to understand that the on course market is dictated by Betfair and it is only a matter of time before the industry on course offers place only betting if it is not happening already. However, understand as an example Excelebration was around 16/1 in the win market but only 0.4/1 in the place market. If you do the maths the place only option was a good bet in retrospect but any bookmaker following the win market and offering anything in double digits will go broke pretty quickly. There will be a similar discussion on Saturday if BC goes off at prohibitive odds.

16/1?

where?

Buses, it touched 18.5 0n here.

wow, not that id have backed it but in light of what the on course books were offering, should be jailed for that, fraud.

how can you call it fraud?

they are their to make money not have their pants pulled down, why would anyone actively want to bet overbroke? Adge can come on here and brag, albeit he is looking at the decision long-term and offering consistency to his regular customers but to think laying over broke is some loss leader is fanciful in the current state of racecourse gambling.

If that upsets people on a competitors forum rather than distorting the profile of your average racegoer then long may it continue.

*there

i dont blame them if there are mugs out there backing him at 5/1 but to offer 5/1 when hes 16/1 online is just wrong and im guessing the e/w terms werent the best either.

you have to admire a horse like excelebration, a 7f horse being asked to take on frankel over a mile

ilikewavingatbuses

£5 Each Way in a betting shop @ 5/1 betting 1/4 odds would return £11.25 and a profit of £1.25

£5 win on Betfair @ 16/1 win market and £5 on place market at 1.40 (2/5) returns £7 on the two bets and a loss of £3.00.

What's best?

Surely you are not foolish enough to expect a 1/4 odds at 16/1. Why should bookmakers have to offer you 3/1 or 4/1 a place when it's true price is 2/5. Do you go to work all day for nothing? This is an extreme case of where the mathematical formula for each way betting can be totally flawed and in this case where you have such a long odds on it was highlighted.

corbie - I'm sure adge is not coming on here to brag, he is simply stating a point as to how he runs his own business on this tyoe of race. Yes, he is looking at things long term and values his customer retention. For many punters, they stick with the same bookie all day, so he should be admired for recognising this. It is a loss leader of course but has long term benefits

intheknow,

so what about the people that have invested (extreme!) sums of money for pitches at a few selected meetings a year.....

as i stated, running loss leaders now in the current state of oncourse bookmaking is, for me, redundant. Prices are uniform and your profit and loss will be dictated by the size of the crowd / placement of pitch. Giving away edge that reaps v little in the way of return turnover to terrible margins isnt my idea of fun.

corbie - you're not far off the mark but equally not close enough to the racecourse bookmaker situation to fully understand how things are out there. Yes,things are tough and as you say prices are uniform and generally that is correct. However, that's why Adge and many others are doing something different to give punters a better deal. Proper place terms even when the figures don't really add up, place only bets, payout on disqualified winners, having an opinion, not immediately changing prices when it falls below the price on here etc.

Loss leaders are never redundant in any business, they just have to be used carefully and at the right time. If you're ever racing in the North, you will soon see where the value is for the customer. Unfortunately, as in all walks of life, there are always some who want to rip people off at every opportunity

to rip people off at every opportunity


Spot on.

just catching up and thanks for your concerns , corbiewood.
actually , although i bet 8/1 bar one the second favourite wasn't well backed each way and was welcome to be placed. the third at 40/1 and 33/1 was what caused the damage.
and yes , i do bet place only but it was to a maximum of £25 on the queen anne.
i took just two £5 place only bets.

and for those that suggest i should have bet win only let me say i took a grand total of THREE win bets on the race and FIFTY SEVEN each way bets plus the TWO place only bets

i never brag , it's just a sound customer relations service that works , much better than giving free sweets away

I've no doubt you are a decent and bona-fide on-course bookmaker adge, but the next time you set up your stall, have a good look around you......

Bookmaker 4 down from me bet 1/8th odds 123 on the Gold Cup today.  Shares the same surname as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock.  The 4 bookies on the bank were apparently going 6/1 horses that were showing at 12/1 on the big screen.  Come racing.

seen them at aintree wasnot,like to edge their joint infront of everybody else's,enough said.

Sorry, intheknow, let's not compare apples and oranges - I can just as easily say have £10 a place @ 1.4 on here giving a £4 profit. I can't have a similar bet on course..

Apologies itk, my post was aimed at theraces. Where would one have obtained 1/4 place odds?

Not really sure what your poitn is Stewarty b!

If I go to buy something, I look around for the best price. I might find the absolute CHEAPEST price, or I might not. It also might be that I add the convenience or other factors into it: I could wait 7 days for it, or I could settle for a blue one instead of a red one, or I could get it here and now, rather than walking/driving half an hour to get it.

Surely the bookie is the "convenience store" of betting, whereas BF is the Amazon.

Much of the time, Amazon is cheaper but, if you want it now and don't want to fiddle about online and/or wait ages for it to be "delivered" afterwards, then you might expect less value.

Get over it!

arfur,
but your £10 place only bet on course  at 8/1 would have netted you £16 profit

a bit of a difference don't you think to a measly £4

yes , you CAN have a place only bet. look for the bookmakers signs

Tinjakko

Tinjakko
21 Jun 12 22:57
Joined:
16 Apr 05
| Topic/replies: 431 | Blogger: Tinjakko's blog
Not really sure what your poitn is Stewarty b!

If I go to buy something, I look around for the best price. I might find the absolute CHEAPEST price, or I might not. It also might be that I add the convenience or other factors into it: I could wait 7 days for it, or I could settle for a blue one instead of a red one, or I could get it here and now, rather than walking/driving half an hour to get it.

Surely the bookie is the "convenience store" of betting, whereas BF is the Amazon.

Much of the time, Amazon is cheaper but, if you want it now and don't want to fiddle about online and/or wait ages for it to be "delivered" afterwards, then you might expect less value.

Get over it!

I can only presume you are on some kind of mind altering substance Tinjakko.

if bookmakers with outside interests were not allowed to bet the situation would sort itself out there is a major problem with those many books who care only for today

Correct it is the old Financial Salesman's mentality of I don't care I will sell and rip off as many people as I can while I can, unfortunately the Regulator got/gets hold of such practices in the end,  If only the Gambling Commission would step in and do something.. but then they are just another Quango running up massive expense bills

arfur ffoulkes-aycke

Apologies itk, my post was aimed at theraces. Where would one have obtained 1/4 place odds?

Answer:

Each way 1/4 1-2-3 available with many High Street bookmakers on Tuesday for the Queen Anne as with all Group 1 races with 8 or more runners.

Any business that sets itself up to lose is nonsensical unless it decides to have a "loss leader". Given the unusual situation in this particular race the favourite was 1/10 the place market is loss making and bookmakers react accordingly. If you backed Excelebration on the Tote place only then you got 30p for your £1,on Betfair you got 40p for you £1 and if a bookmaker states he takes place only bets I imagine you would have been offered around 0.3 but there is no way on god`s earth that you would have got a double digit e-w price on Excelebration.

Incidentally Frankel paid 1/10 on the Tote to win and the same to place. The place bet was the one to be on at 10% for your money.

you just don't get it do you feltfair
only one person did , actually , having a £5 place only bet at odds of 8/5 and collected £13 tax free
that same £5 on here , the best you could find at 1.4 returned only £7...less commission of course.
the value is on the racecourse..massively in this case.

now what about the place market in the black caviar race tomorrow. the exact same offers are available again

Adge I think I will be betting win only no need for any loss leaders for me tomorrow as it's in the middle of the card, would bet without if we were facing a normal crowd but I don't fancy having to explain the various out comes to all and sundry. It's hard enough to explain what ew means to the majority of ascot reacegoers

How about the 3-05 at Ascot today adge?  The place book was 229% at ISP for two places,  the winner paid 2.14 a place compared to 2.58 on here.  You keep slagging off Betfair place odds but choose races where there is an odds on favourite.  Most races on a daily basis the place odds are vastly in your favour.

It wont be long before on course bookmakers will be allowed to bet win and place with different prices rather to this crazy ew scenario, exchanges have dictated a win market to zero %age but in so many instances are miles overbroke if they bet ew, its got to happen, only a matter of time.

hey roo , as me and raymond  were about to set up , the boookie next to us(only two of us in part of a hospitality tent) came up to me and gave me a print out of his prices  and explained that if i topped his prices at any time hed top  me again. some welsh  bookie(tisser called hourihane i think) how nice of him to allow me to work at all.when i explained id go along with him if he cvhose to switch pitches he   replied "im number one". he ran two printers had the better pick(ok  fullly accept that as he picked before) and oddly enuff wanted to  go the prices first.as you can imagine i told the arrogant pr7ck to feck off.you may knbow him , hes got one of those faces you just wanna punch  punch punch and just keep on punching. hed given me this "price sheet " yesterday i just hadnt realised what6 it was otherwise id have feked him off yesterday with a flea in his ear.if by any chance im next to him tomorrow ill give him a further reminderr of what i think about him and his bully boy antics. many years ago dickie  walden said of this guy " hes a total no good **** and id lik to spit in his eye" bless him dickie died a very good judge of character.all the other welsh bookies i know are real nice  easy going guys, i wonder if they have trouble with him.

apparently this isnt the guys name although i think it was a bit of a "team effort"anyway . im a great believer in each to their own. on the brightside four small winning days.

richwill,
i don't know where you dream up your figures.
thomas chippendale won the 3.05.the lowest price i ever was was 6/1. as the race was 1/4 1-2 that means the worst i laid was 6/4 a place or in your language 2.50 net of commission.
try to find a better example

well at least the aussies know a bargain price when they see it. i took 43 place only bets on that race yesterday.
1/5 black caviar and 6/1 bar one...26 of them on the second
thats at 2.20 btw[ 6/5] , only offered at 1.73 [ less comm. on here ]. sorry if that's the best that you got.


i actually won £86 on the places

adge u still here?i taught i put u back in yre box

If you back a horse to win, and it gets home by a nose, you are happy

If you back a horse each way and it gets 2nd or 3rd you could be  happy, if the price is right

But there could be 20 lengths between the 2nd and the 3rd

It's illogical that they both get paid at the same place odds

It's about time each way betting was overhauled so that the 2nd horse each way pays fractionally more than the 3rd horse, even if they are the same price.

two complicated for the british.

ratty , how are you . hope you had a profitable ascot. i won on all five days

two = too.....nust wake up

What don`t I get Adge?

adge,  why don't you stay at home and lay on the place markets with there awful odds.  Easy money,  no expenses, why not?

test

The 8/5 place only bet you struck to a fiver was it to your mother?

the point is , feltfair , it was there and available to all and sundry. pity you and your friends missed it on this occassion.
the aussies on saturday found the value in the black caviar race.

but still don't upset yourself it's there and available on every race on every day of every week so don't miss out in the future

Black Caviar was returned 1.14 a place on here adge,  surely that was the value in the race?

Yes Adge and you lost on your place book you posted earlier so it was a loss leader for you.I wasn`t there so I couldn`t take advantage of your offer.

don't worry , there will be plenty more future opertunities for you , feltfair , these offers are there every day.

i agree , rich , 1.14 on here and on tuesday 1.10 frankel with the tote [ place ]

how could any shrewdie lose last week ?

You are most kind I will hopefully take advantage of your offer sometime.