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06 May 12
17:15
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22 Jul 09
What is the point?
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Was it his first time riding the course? It looked like his first time riding a horse!!
He was ordinary over obstacles so did anybody really expect him to be any better on the flat.How does anybody actually employ the poor fellow ?
Robo, you obviously didn't see him ride Staff Seargeant from the front on Friday did you. You thick get. 
As a matter of fact I didn't but I did see plenty of him riding for Ferdy and he was ordinary then.I assume he hasnt got better now that he is in the twilight of his career
Backed one he was on at Donny last night and he was either asleep or couldnt be ar5ed cos he didnt do much,. was in the 830 Jivry
Bit unfair to say he was ordinary over the obstacles,one of better jockeys over jumps, plenty of decent wins - not so sure I would back him on the flat though.
over the jumps ,he was near top class tbf,i think the switch is because he has lost his bottle.now hes winging it and already been found out,sad but true,sud retire and retain some dignity
He must have been the luckiest jump jockey ever then to have won a Grand National, Scottish Grand National, World Hurdle, Supreme Novices Hurdle, RSA Novice Hurdle, Ascot Hurdle, Long Distance Hurdle (beat Baracouda), John Smith's Novice Chase and Betfair Bowl Chase at the Aintree GN meeting, Charlie Hall Chase, Galway Hurdle as well as being top jockey one year at the Cheltenham festival.
He was never going to go from riding top class jumpers to group class horses on the level and will have to ride a lot of dross before he gets on anything decent if ever.
He was never going to go from riding top class jumpers to group class horses on the level and will have to ride a lot of dross before he gets on anything decent if ever.
I dont think Noble Alan's owners will be happy to hear their hoss called "dross" tbph..
Well if Noble Alan guinness2dear isn't dross then that's clearly not one of the ones that would come under that heading and what I said was he will have to ride a lot of dross, which isn't the same as saying every ride he takes will be dross but having said that anyway, Noble Alan is a 9YO chaser last see UR in the Paddy Power over 2m4f and was making its first appearance on the flat over 1m4f in a maiden for Lee so not exactly a plum ride.
What exactly is it I'm supposed to be getting over kingrat as I wasn't even aware I had an issue? Some people really do come out with some b0ll0cks on here that its embarrassing and all I was pointing out was that he clearly wasn't ordinary over jumps as a previous posters suggested considering the calibre of races he won in that sphere and you seem to be arguing with yourself then as you yourself stated "over the jumps, he was near top class tbf." I personally couldn't care less either way if he packed up tomorrow or made a great success of his career on the flat and the way you go on with the "get over it" comment you would think I ran his fanclub and website assuming he has either of those.
I think it's fair to say though he was the equal or possibly even better over jumps than Jim Crowley and he would have seen the success he's had (and to a lesser extent Robert Lucy-Butler, Stephen Craine and Jamie Goldstein) and must have thought it was worth having a go on the flat, but he has to accept that he is not as well connected as Crowley who got the support of his sister-in-law's stable and as a result of that the stable jockey job of another trainer in that same area.
What exactly is it I'm supposed to be getting over kingrat as I wasn't even aware I had an issue? Some people really do come out with some b0ll0cks on here that its embarrassing and all I was pointing out was that he clearly wasn't ordinary over jumps as a previous posters suggested considering the calibre of races he won in that sphere and you seem to be arguing with yourself then as you yourself stated "over the jumps, he was near top class tbf." I personally couldn't care less either way if he packed up tomorrow or made a great success of his career on the flat and the way you go on with the "get over it" comment you would think I ran his fanclub and website assuming he has either of those.
I think it's fair to say though he was the equal or possibly even better over jumps than Jim Crowley and he would have seen the success he's had (and to a lesser extent Robert Lucy-Butler, Stephen Craine and Jamie Goldstein) and must have thought it was worth having a go on the flat, but he has to accept that he is not as well connected as Crowley who got the support of his sister-in-law's stable and as a result of that the stable jockey job of another trainer in that same area.
sorry to rain on yre parade 66,hes embarrassing himself,so what, he lost his bottle.when he started out,it was on the flat and he himself said he was useless at it,so now at his age u be think he can become competant at it.ok u go for touch on a horse when hes riding it and post it and at a price,thats what is all about m8
Oh right I understand the problem now kingrat, you think anyone stating even the slightest deviation away from what you are saying must hold the exact polar opposite view to you.
Well the rain on my so called parade line is about as redundant as the get over it one towards me too because I totally agree he's gone to the flat due to not fancying it over the jumps any more but you seem to be having difficulty separating when someone is merely stating a set of circumstances with when someone is expressing an opinion oh Lee's merits as a flat jockey. Nowhere do I say I think he can (or can't for that matter) become competent at it and by "it" I assume you mean on the flat and as I've already indicated twice now, the only actual opinion I was making was that he wasn't just an ordinary jockey over the jumps.
As for going for a touch on a horse of his, I don't back much now anyway but when I do I'm backing the horse and not the jockey and I rarely back anyway in low grade races and that's his level now on the flat until he proves a success or a failure either way. As for him starting out on the flat, practically every jump jockey does anyway as a kid until they get too heavy but again this next comment isn't a judgement on his ability as a flat jockey but it must have been a good few years ago that he was riding on the flat as he's about mid-30s now and he will be a much better all round horseman and jockey today compared to then.....how many flat winners did McCoy or Paul Carberry ride for Jim Bolger?
I then went on to point out Lee's intentions were probably to have a go at it after seeing other ex-jump jockeys do so (as well as for self-preservation reasons too) but as to whether he's still good enough or not is another matter and I even suggested a reason why he would find it harder to establish himself than Crowley did so where you are getting some of your impressions from that I'm thinking he is or will be competent at it I really don't know.
Well the rain on my so called parade line is about as redundant as the get over it one towards me too because I totally agree he's gone to the flat due to not fancying it over the jumps any more but you seem to be having difficulty separating when someone is merely stating a set of circumstances with when someone is expressing an opinion oh Lee's merits as a flat jockey. Nowhere do I say I think he can (or can't for that matter) become competent at it and by "it" I assume you mean on the flat and as I've already indicated twice now, the only actual opinion I was making was that he wasn't just an ordinary jockey over the jumps.
As for going for a touch on a horse of his, I don't back much now anyway but when I do I'm backing the horse and not the jockey and I rarely back anyway in low grade races and that's his level now on the flat until he proves a success or a failure either way. As for him starting out on the flat, practically every jump jockey does anyway as a kid until they get too heavy but again this next comment isn't a judgement on his ability as a flat jockey but it must have been a good few years ago that he was riding on the flat as he's about mid-30s now and he will be a much better all round horseman and jockey today compared to then.....how many flat winners did McCoy or Paul Carberry ride for Jim Bolger?
I then went on to point out Lee's intentions were probably to have a go at it after seeing other ex-jump jockeys do so (as well as for self-preservation reasons too) but as to whether he's still good enough or not is another matter and I even suggested a reason why he would find it harder to establish himself than Crowley did so where you are getting some of your impressions from that I'm thinking he is or will be competent at it I really don't know.
before he gets on anything decent if ever.
You are the biggest apologist on this forum. Someone who is never wrong.
Now FRO.
You are the biggest apologist on this forum. Someone who is never wrong.
Now FRO.
he was still schooling horses over jumps a few weeks ago for at least 4 trainers.
He was not riding Jump horses 4 weeks ago that's nonsense. And I notice nobody has posted that he won on Anne Duffields this afternoon. It's easy to drone on and be critical isn't it.
I reckon he'll do OK on the flat, but it will take a few weeks to get into it. He's had 3 winners in the last fortnight, more than some established flat jockeys
I reckon he'll do OK on the flat, but it will take a few weeks to get into it. He's had 3 winners in the last fortnight, more than some established flat jockeys
so he and Crowley lost their bottle,so what they are both accomplished horsemen.If his weight is ok it won't take such a talented rider too long to get to grips with pace and race riding on the level.Then he rides for another 10 years if he makes it pay. PJ McDonald is a very decent rider who is underated and Dandy has taken first dibs on O'Connell,both making waves up North.These guys have ability experience in hard knocks.Don't write them off because they aren't lightweights and not riding 6 times a day.
saw graham for the first time since he gave up jumping last week at wolves,looked very fit and well and enjoying the challenge, and lets face it riding on the flat doddle compared to the old job, pace getting him plenty of rides and cannot see him being anything other than a success
He will do ok when he gets on a few better horses. Good luck to him.
If by apologist guinness2dear you mean I'm not a drama queen who thinks every jockey and trainer is sh1t and they are all at it every time I lose a few quid then I plead guilty. 
Oh and how can you be wrong over an opinion? You can only be wrong over facts and if in your opinion such and such a jockey is sh1t and in mine he isn't then neither of us are right or wrong, that's why it's called a personal opinion, although I tend to try to back up why I think they are not and this usually consists of a long list of top class races they have won.........and telling someone you've never even met before to FRO over the Internet is embarrassing by the way, I thought you had to be over 18 to join on here.
Oh and how can you be wrong over an opinion? You can only be wrong over facts and if in your opinion such and such a jockey is sh1t and in mine he isn't then neither of us are right or wrong, that's why it's called a personal opinion, although I tend to try to back up why I think they are not and this usually consists of a long list of top class races they have won.........and telling someone you've never even met before to FRO over the Internet is embarrassing by the way, I thought you had to be over 18 to join on here.
ima_mazed66
Queen you may be, but i should have called you a pompous twát. Is that grown up enough for you ? Therefore i hereby rectify that matter.
Yes you do tend to copy and paste some remote facts when someone disagrees with you, i suppose your pompous state allows you to think that no one else knows these facts eh, after all it is a Racing Forum so why would anyone know these facts eh..
So the next time you see fit to educate us mere mortals with your internet facts, just remember that jockeys-trainers et all are all human, and do make mistakes, and no matter how many facts you throw at this forum nothing will change that fact, or us mere mortals right of opinion.
Here endeth the lesson, now FRO again..
Queen you may be, but i should have called you a pompous twát. Is that grown up enough for you ? Therefore i hereby rectify that matter.
Yes you do tend to copy and paste some remote facts when someone disagrees with you, i suppose your pompous state allows you to think that no one else knows these facts eh, after all it is a Racing Forum so why would anyone know these facts eh..
So the next time you see fit to educate us mere mortals with your internet facts, just remember that jockeys-trainers et all are all human, and do make mistakes, and no matter how many facts you throw at this forum nothing will change that fact, or us mere mortals right of opinion.
Here endeth the lesson, now FRO again..
LOL.... you can't even read properly or else you would have seen I said that I'd said I was I'm not a drama queen....maybe try following along with your finger on screen and silently mouth the words as you go a couple of times and it might actually sink in.
So when people are saying Aidan O'Brien can't train or Richard Johnson can't get a horse to jump they are either saying it knowing their thousands of winners and so are talking cr@p or they don't know so either way they are misinformed wouldn't you say? I'm also not trying to educate anyone and it's more a case of saying look at that list of big races won and then do you still think such and such a trainer or jockey is cr@p? There was even someone on here the other day saying Stoute couldn't train or words to that effect.
It's not though what you are calling somebody that is embarrassing for you, it the very fact that you just are to someone over the Internet that you don't know from Adam and most people leave that kind of thing behind in the school playground when the go off into the big wide world. Maybe you've just never grown up though and still pull your trousers and pants down when going for a p1ss?
LOL....you can't just make up a line of argument because it suits you, it doesn't work like that in the real world and when have I ever said jockeys don't make mistakes? Of course they do and I've said so many times but riding a bad race and being a bad rider aren't the same thing. I've said it until I'm blue in the face that Fallon made a mistake on Ballinger Ridge but you will still get the ones who have to have the media form their opinions for them say it was dodgy. I've also said both Joseph O'Brien and Murtagh made the mistake of racing each other yesterday instead of the field and let the other 2 go and then even touched on Murtagh having done it before so where you get the idea from that I'm unaware they make mistake is beyond me.
There's also a certain irony in you accusing me of supposedly trying to educate anybody and then ending your post with "Here endeth the lesson" but forgive me if I decline as I'm reasonably confident I'd never learn much from you and would lose you and find you again anyway.
So when people are saying Aidan O'Brien can't train or Richard Johnson can't get a horse to jump they are either saying it knowing their thousands of winners and so are talking cr@p or they don't know so either way they are misinformed wouldn't you say? I'm also not trying to educate anyone and it's more a case of saying look at that list of big races won and then do you still think such and such a trainer or jockey is cr@p? There was even someone on here the other day saying Stoute couldn't train or words to that effect.
It's not though what you are calling somebody that is embarrassing for you, it the very fact that you just are to someone over the Internet that you don't know from Adam and most people leave that kind of thing behind in the school playground when the go off into the big wide world. Maybe you've just never grown up though and still pull your trousers and pants down when going for a p1ss?
LOL....you can't just make up a line of argument because it suits you, it doesn't work like that in the real world and when have I ever said jockeys don't make mistakes? Of course they do and I've said so many times but riding a bad race and being a bad rider aren't the same thing. I've said it until I'm blue in the face that Fallon made a mistake on Ballinger Ridge but you will still get the ones who have to have the media form their opinions for them say it was dodgy. I've also said both Joseph O'Brien and Murtagh made the mistake of racing each other yesterday instead of the field and let the other 2 go and then even touched on Murtagh having done it before so where you get the idea from that I'm unaware they make mistake is beyond me.
There's also a certain irony in you accusing me of supposedly trying to educate anybody and then ending your post with "Here endeth the lesson" but forgive me if I decline as I'm reasonably confident I'd never learn much from you and would lose you and find you again anyway.
Yeah nice 9/2 winner without the need to flog it to death as soon as they start to come under pressure and maybe the longer distance race helped him until he gets a bit more used to breaking well from the stalls and picking up the pace of the shorter races.
at least the op has kept his counsel and decided this thread reflects well on his mental faculties.
Wonder if kingrat & playthegame will admit they were talking crap.
fife they only bother about whether the bet copped to fund the next one,horses are just numbers and jockeys just part of the package marked FAV at the top of the screen
Graham Lee must feel great knowing he isn't going to get buried from some dodgy nervous chaser
must feel better he doesn't have to leave his DNA all over Ferdy inspired stranglings.
Best keep quiet,kingprat. You've embarrassed yourself enough.
Apparently he's embarrassed himself 4 times in the last 7 days and then with another 2 winners today, where the winning most jockeys in those same 7 days have been Hanagan and Winston with 6.........it's also Lee's 4th winner from his last 5 rides, I'd give up if I was him as the other one was only 9th.
He won 2 races on NH type ground conditions for 2 NH trainers. Big deal! And I didnt lose any money on him first day. I started the thread simply to know what everyone else thought about him. Lets see how he does for the rest of the season. Maybe Coolmore will come looking for him now to replace young Joey
playthegameboy
He won 2 races on NH type ground conditions for 2 NH trainers.
And that's relevant because?
He won 2 races on NH type ground conditions for 2 NH trainers.
And that's relevant because?
He is a good jockey and will do as least as well as Jim Crowley.
His bottle hasn't gone,just had enough of bulking up to ride over the jumps. He is naturally light enough to ride on the flat.
For those he slating him,you should be watching or getting involved in something other than this game. You will probably find it a lot cheaper on your pocket
His bottle hasn't gone,just had enough of bulking up to ride over the jumps. He is naturally light enough to ride on the flat.
For those he slating him,you should be watching or getting involved in something other than this game. You will probably find it a lot cheaper on your pocket
that is a huge statement TRD. Crowley is top 10 now and has connections coming out of his ears, Lee would need to be fast tracked into Black type racing for comparison. Crowley has been on the level a while now.
33% win and place(8 wins) is decent given the crud he rides.
It's funny how the big mouthed knockers go quiet and never bring these threads back up again themselves isn't it?
I also noticed the Tom Dascombe thread has yet to make a reappearance since he recently has 3 winners in a 7-8 runner spell and I'm surprised (or am I really?) that there haven't been as many Fallon threads up today. Although I've only seen the first page so far so maybe they were up earlier.
All it needs now is for Andy Carroll to score tonight to get up the yankee.
I also noticed the Tom Dascombe thread has yet to make a reappearance since he recently has 3 winners in a 7-8 runner spell and I'm surprised (or am I really?) that there haven't been as many Fallon threads up today. Although I've only seen the first page so far so maybe they were up earlier.
All it needs now is for Andy Carroll to score tonight to get up the yankee.
graham riding superbly...............were are all the kernockers now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VALUEMAN 29 May 12 23:01
rode for me last week, not impressed.
maybe he misheard your instructions, valueman
rode for me last week, not impressed.
maybe he misheard your instructions, valueman
I enjoy your writing IMA and I'm not sure of the nature of all 3 of Dascombe's winners but I know one of them was Julius geezer, the listed winning 2yo triumphing in a seller. He isn't there yet for me. But you're right, people are reactionary and jump the gun way too quickly on this forum. Most of the arguments you make go over their heads.
Loads of top ex jockeys I see making valuable contributions on this thread 
Valuebetting
purple patch ima, they all have them Laugh
True Valuebetting but the OP's opening gambit was Graham Lee, what's the point? So presumably now it was to give up riding NH winners to try his hand at riding flat ones......if as was so then maybe it's best to judge him at the end of the season rather than at the begin.
neill d
I enjoy your writing IMA and I'm not sure of the nature of all 3 of Dascombe's winners but I know one of them was Julius geezer, the listed winning 2yo triumphing in a seller. He isn't there yet for me. But you're right, people are reactionary and jump the gun way too quickly on this forum. Most of the arguments you make go over their heads.
Thank you neill d and I appreciate you saying that.
Fair point about Julius Geezer although this was the horse's first win since that race which was over 2 years ago having had 14 races in between and beat mostly debutantes or once raced horses when one of the most experienced runners, and most 2YOs 5f races are basically point and go where they are honest and keen and tend not to develop quirks if any until later on. The horse also got a rating of 90 after that and is now down to 78 so it could just have been a poor event and it's been downhill ever since.
The yard have recently had 4 winners in the last week from 15 runners which is better than 1 winner for ever 4 runners, with one of the other winners also being a seller, a class 4 Classified Stakes race at Sandown and a class 5 Maiden but all I was suggesting after Brown Panther was beaten in a race containing an O'Brien rival that had finished 2nd of the Derby, was that Tom Dascombe shouldn't even be compared with the likes of trainers who would never even have runners in a seller as he's not established enough in a higher class of racing and so will have plenty of low value runners going in low value races which will invariably often get beaten.
If there was no Michael Owen and then Wayne Rooney connection then nobody would worry about how his horses were running and whilst Dascombe is nowhere on the same level as O'Brien, Owen and Rooney are nowhere near Coolmore or Godolphin as owners either.
purple patch ima, they all have them Laugh
True Valuebetting but the OP's opening gambit was Graham Lee, what's the point? So presumably now it was to give up riding NH winners to try his hand at riding flat ones......if as was so then maybe it's best to judge him at the end of the season rather than at the begin.
neill d
I enjoy your writing IMA and I'm not sure of the nature of all 3 of Dascombe's winners but I know one of them was Julius geezer, the listed winning 2yo triumphing in a seller. He isn't there yet for me. But you're right, people are reactionary and jump the gun way too quickly on this forum. Most of the arguments you make go over their heads.
Thank you neill d and I appreciate you saying that.
Fair point about Julius Geezer although this was the horse's first win since that race which was over 2 years ago having had 14 races in between and beat mostly debutantes or once raced horses when one of the most experienced runners, and most 2YOs 5f races are basically point and go where they are honest and keen and tend not to develop quirks if any until later on. The horse also got a rating of 90 after that and is now down to 78 so it could just have been a poor event and it's been downhill ever since.
The yard have recently had 4 winners in the last week from 15 runners which is better than 1 winner for ever 4 runners, with one of the other winners also being a seller, a class 4 Classified Stakes race at Sandown and a class 5 Maiden but all I was suggesting after Brown Panther was beaten in a race containing an O'Brien rival that had finished 2nd of the Derby, was that Tom Dascombe shouldn't even be compared with the likes of trainers who would never even have runners in a seller as he's not established enough in a higher class of racing and so will have plenty of low value runners going in low value races which will invariably often get beaten.
If there was no Michael Owen and then Wayne Rooney connection then nobody would worry about how his horses were running and whilst Dascombe is nowhere on the same level as O'Brien, Owen and Rooney are nowhere near Coolmore or Godolphin as owners either.
I am just so pleased he has given up the jumps and I gather many horses are just as relieved as the ground he had them trying to make up would have been too much for Arkle.
Mind you he was riding for Ferdy Murphy who would give Oliver Sherwood a run for his money in the funny instructions stakes.
Mind you he was riding for Ferdy Murphy who would give Oliver Sherwood a run for his money in the funny instructions stakes.
another fine ride in defeat if theres such a thing.
theres not?
oh.
theres not?
oh.
just showng the flat boys how easy their game is...........
still not doing bad is he!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Was quite funny to read through this thread again whilst waiting between races................some terrible after timing from me though apparently. 
yes he will never make a flat jockey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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