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hello :-)
16 Apr 12 15:45
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TONY McCOY hoped we would be talking of Synchronised in the same breath as Golden Miller, the last winner of the Gold Cup and Grand National in 1934.
Sadly we are not. We are talking of him in the same breath as Alverton, Jonjo O’Neill’s mount in the 1979 National that died at Becher’s a month after winning the Gold Cup.

The 11th-hour decision to confirm O’Neill’s Cheltenham Gold Cup hero as a runner in Saturday’s race will go down as one of the most misguided in the history of the race.

No Gold Cup winner has run in a Grand National since Master Oats in 1995. Not Denman (2008). Not Kauto Star (2007 and 2009). Not Long Run (2011). No wonder their trainers, Paul Nicholls and Nicky Henderson, are top of the trainers’ list year after year. When Nicholls or Henderson win a Gold Cup their horses are put out in the paddocks for a well-earned summer break.

O’Neill has told the press repeatedly that “Synchronised needs plenty of time to recover from his races”. So the £500,000 question is why did the Gold Cup winner take part in the world’s most valuable steeplechase? The answer probably involves that horrible cliche – there is only one Grand National.
No Gold Cup winner has run in a Grand National since Master Oats in 1995

Synchronised did not owe his multi-millionaire owner JP McManus, or his racing manager Frank Berry, anything.

Indeed, McManus said that winning the Gold Cup with Synchronised was his greatest moment in the sport, greater even than winning the National with Don’t Push It.

A minority on the internet have put the point across that “Connections were being sporting and adventurous but sadly it backfired on them.” But the majority view is that “Connections should have shown the Gold Cup winner more respect and not run him after Cheltenham”.
   
Paul Bittar, chief executive of the British Horseracing Authority, has emphasised that no stone will be left unturned “to find the right balance which enables us to maintain the highest standards of safety for our horses and participants”.

The fences have already been modified, the going was perfect on Saturday and we were treated to the closest finish in the history of the race – Neptune Collonges getting up in the final stride to beat Sunnyhillboy by a nose.

If only McManus had done as we hoped in last Monday’s Express – not run Synchronised and put McCoy up on Sunnyhillboy – he would have won the National and be looking forward to several more years with his Gold Cup winner. Sadly it was not to be.
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Report Cider April 16, 2012 9:01 PM BST
Rather strange how Kauto 'had enough' when he won the GC, but hadn't went he was second and third Tongue Out
Report mightyfly April 16, 2012 9:08 PM BST
On the well handicapped theory.

Say Paul Nicholls and Clive Smith decided to take Kauto Star to the Grand National in 2010 with his Handicap Mark of 193.
He would have had top weight of 11 stone 10lbs with his nearest rival of the actual runners that took part being  Madison Du Berlais rated 158 and set to carry 9 stone 3lbs.
Ever other runner would have been allotted much less weight, but all including Madison Du Berlais would have had to carry the mimimum 10stone.

Based on that theory, you can if you so choose get into the National as a very well handicapped horse purely on the fact you are much better than the rest.

An example of this would be Desert Orchids triumph in the Irish National at Evens, simply because he had more or less given the rest no chance as they were all bar one out of the handicap.
Report themightymac April 16, 2012 9:09 PM BST
Vibart was a "small un" but used to win the "Puissance" at the Horse Of The Year Show regularly.
Report Busvaldo April 16, 2012 9:12 PM BST
He ran the horse because he thought it could win.It didn't.It is not a crossword puzzle.
Report Steamship April 16, 2012 10:12 PM BST
This seems to be like a witch hunt on O Neil, McManus and McCoy, we have supported the race and in a way it was great to see them having a go with him. Both horses were very unfortunate stop blaming them.

Im sure DENMAN ran at Aintree after his Gold Cup win wasn't it when he fell and looked like he had broken his leg? I saw Denman at Aintree last year and he looked dreadful in the pre parade ring. He had finished second in the GC and was running in a shorter time span.
Report Dr Gonzo April 16, 2012 10:24 PM BST
Think it was the year after Steamship
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:30 PM BST
I cant blame McCoy or connections as they play the game the same as everyone else, its the fences and in particular a few fences and the resulting drop offs and traps, I am sure that all involved with Syncronised and according to Pete are as upset if not alot more than we are and my heart goes out to them.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:31 PM BST
We never got to see what Synchronise could do or ATP because the same fence claimed there lives as it did last years statisticSad
Report Steamship April 16, 2012 10:32 PM BST
Yes sorry it was, in fact the year he had his heart scare and 20 days after the GC.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:34 PM BST
I cant remember being more saddened at the loss of a horse in the GN, something out to be done to Bechers Brook once and for all and the BHA should stop hiding under the desk if they trully love horses.
Report Steamship April 16, 2012 10:35 PM BST
That's it though  bf it did not. Synchronised picked up his injury later and According To Pete was brought down which could have happened at any fence.
Report Steamship April 16, 2012 10:38 PM BST
They don't truly love horses it's their business. Do farmers love their animals that they send to be slaughtered or is it their way of life and they deal with it?
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:38 PM BST
The Telegraph today wrote 

The horses became the ninth and tenth horses to be put down after a fall at Bechers Brook, which is jumped twice during the race (as jumps 6 and 22), in the last fifty years.

A sharp drop on the landing side, including a stream of running water, takes many horses by surprise.

In recent years it has been modified twice for safety reasons - in 1989 after six horses fell together during the first circuit, causing two deaths, and again last year after the death of Dooney's Gate.

But this year's deaths have prompted further calls from animal rights activists and the RSPCA for the fence to be changed or removed.

The British Horseriding Association (BHA) said yesterday that the official investigation into both horses deaths were "reasonably advanced", noting that there should not be a knee-jerk reaction to the deaths.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:39 PM BST
An analysis of falls and deaths at the Grand National by pressure group Animal Aid has also flagged up fence four (and 20), a plain, 4'10 brush fence which has caused the death of five horses over the same period, fence three (and 19), a five foot fence with a wide ditch in front, which has seen three deaths, and fence fifteen ('the Chair), the highest fence at 5'2 which has claimed three horses.

Valentine's Brook, a 5' fence with a ditch and a drop on landing, has been the cause of one death in the Grand National (Zeta's Son in 1977) and a grisly incident in the 2010 Topham Chase - which follows the same course - when two horses, Plaisir D’Estruval and Prudent Honour, to break their necks in simultaneous falls.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:41 PM BST
But nobody listens to aanimal welfare groups becasue we consider them ant-racing, but in fact they do care and can do the maths, can we?

p.s. I love racing too but only at the right cost.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:43 PM BST
To the least able observer it can be seen that the rest of the normal fences do not account for more than an average amount of accidents!
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:44 PM BST
the course was on its hind legs in the seventies and red rum help save it, had red rum not been such a great jumper Aintree would be a super market now!
Report GT-MOLE April 16, 2012 10:46 PM BST
Bf_f if you have been taken in by Animal Aid as a humane organisation...........you need help m8.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:46 PM BST
We cant expect to see another Red rum again, he was a one off but we can make the fences more horse friendly for normal jumpers.
Report Steamship April 16, 2012 10:48 PM BST
Yes it's Red Rum's fault now. Have you ever spelt his name backwards?
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:49 PM BST
Its just common sense thats all and all sides need to come together and make the righjt changes , nothing else required just a little bit of work with some diggers and the jobs done, safer race and better Grand National.
Report pedrobob April 16, 2012 10:49 PM BST
Fact: Jonjo has said Synchronised needs time to get over his races.

Jocked Off, how would you define "time" please?

7 days? 14 days? 21 days?

Why don't you check say 29 days, the time lag between Synchronised's Gold Cup win and the National?

Please advise the race record of Synchronised when reappearing on the racetrack in this period and make sure you get your "facts" right before passing judgement ......
Report ontheflank April 16, 2012 10:50 PM BST
Be carefull racing,remember the public perception ref THE WHIP ABUSE HORSES RECIEVE.How quick we had to revue the changes made.
Please do not fuel the tabloid fire further.
Paul Bittar needs to revue the modified fences as to the value of helping the horses to jump round the National course faster than ever thought possible.Surely this is only going to lead to even higher risks of fatal falls.
In my eyes since the 2002 National the stats say it all,

2012 - good to soft  9mins 5 seconds
   RAN FASTER THAN
2002 - GOOD TO FIRM  9mins 8 seconds
2007 -    GOOD       9mins 13 seconds
2008 -    GOOD       9mins 16 seconds
2003 -    GOOD       9mins 21 seconds
2004 - GOOD TO SOFT  9mins 20 seconds
2005 - GOOD TO SOFT  9mins 20 seconds
2009 - GOOD TO SOFT  9mins 32 seconds

Horses and jockeys had to have the utmost respect for all the national fences in years gone by.
By taking away essentially some of what is the main challenge of the National (the jumping).I feel there could be worse to come in future years of our greatest horse race.
R.I.P. ATP and SYNC
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:51 PM BST
The race would be a whole lot better if more were still standing at the end instead of you know what
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:52 PM BST
Personally I cant watch the race, its just me and its many others till things change.
Report Ken O'sback April 16, 2012 10:53 PM BST
The more the course is altered and made easier the more dangerous it becomes.
What used to be a race for jump bred store horses has become
a race for higher class flat bred types that run a lot faster because of the lower fences,
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:54 PM BST
Horses are getting faster as well as the course so unless something is done its going to get worse IMO.
Report Facts April 16, 2012 10:56 PM BST
^ Synchronised did not break its hind leg by falling at Bechers.
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:56 PM BST
Long run has smashed the gold cup record also, the french connection of course and the french have a totally different approach to fence design, its a recipe for disaster for races held here at ancient tracks.
Report pedrobob April 16, 2012 10:56 PM BST
ontheflank, to be fair, the faster times may also be due to the better quality of horse running now?
But don't disagree with your main point that the fences are easier so the jocks take more liberties
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:56 PM BST
ok the telegraph may have got it wrong but the other?
Report bf_fananatic April 16, 2012 10:59 PM BST
yep qucker approach to the fences now possible but the landing is much harder with the dangerous drop offs and traps still intact. The HBA are looking into it all and hopefully something will be done about the dangers beyond the now faster jumped fences.
Report Steamship April 16, 2012 10:59 PM BST
That's the same for me this year I watched the race, did not enjoy it and have not looked at it since, yet I have seen the most horrible falls in my time and some of my favourite horses killed, but I have still returned and still defended the race and NH in general. I did not have another bet at Aintree even though I got the winner.
Report ReaseHeath April 16, 2012 11:03 PM BST
pedrobob
Date Joined: 27 Mar 06
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16 Apr 12 22:49
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Fact: Jonjo has said Synchronised needs time to get over his races.

Jocked Off, how would you define "time" please?

7 days? 14 days? 21 days?

Why don't you check say 29 days, the time lag between Synchronised's Gold Cup win and the National?

Please advise the race record of Synchronised when reappearing on the racetrack in this period and make sure you get your "facts" right before passing judgement ......


I've just done that - he recorded 3 wins with a break of 29 days or less between races - he recorded a total of 9 wins under rules.

All three of those wins were over at least 3 miles on ground no better than soft. One of them was in the Welsh National.

Maybe it's you that should check the facts?
Report ReaseHeath April 16, 2012 11:04 PM BST
ah, my apologies pedro - I think you're making the same point?
Report ReaseHeath April 16, 2012 11:08 PM BST
the fact is, Jonjo (and presumably AP) who've forgotten more about horses than I'll ever know, thought he'd recovered sufficiently from his exertions in the Gold Cup to run him - Jonjo will have seen him every day since the Gold Cup - I think the criticism of connections is beneath contempt personally.
Report ontheflank April 16, 2012 11:10 PM BST
FANANATIC
Its not about how many horses finish the race,THIS IS JUMPS RACING.
Its the fatality issue that is being raised as the issue.

THANKS PEDROBOB
I agree on training techniques not on class,5% to 10% faster time since changes implemented is my observation.this i am sure will be backed up next year unless a reversal is made.

Also a family relative of mine fortunately caught Synchronised at the Chair.
He says this could have been a lot worse (ref t.v.pictures)
Report Dr Gonzo April 16, 2012 11:15 PM BST
Synchronised did not break its hind leg by falling at Bechers.

Correct. Some people still seem to ignore that fact though.
Report hello :-) April 16, 2012 11:16 PM BST
Good debate here which was my reason for posting the article , i wasnt making judgement or berating anyone for thier national decisions , i just thought it was a great article and asked a question which would encourage debate , it was in my opinion a good bit of brave journalism , other racing dailys would do well to take note .
Report ima_mazed66 April 16, 2012 11:19 PM BST
The drop on the landing side already has been modified and is a lot more level now than before and the inside used to be where the brave took it or those riding horse they knew could or previously had jumped it on the inner and everything else going more central. I remember shouting at the telly at Dunwoody in 1985 not to jump Becher's towards the inside the second time around but then he did and they fell but the following year he made a conscious effort to jump it in the middle both times.

If anything though levelling off the drop has just meant more jockeys take the chance of jumping it to the inside now and because the fence comes up first time around relatively early in the race (fence 6) most of the field are still going and if one takes it to the inner and falls, then there's a good chance others will be left with nowhere to go, even though Synchronised jumped it nearer the middle anyway, as did According to Pete but was just unlucky to be brought down.
Report Facts April 16, 2012 11:21 PM BST
Steamship     16 Apr 12 22:59 
That's the same for me this year I watched the race, did not enjoy it and have not looked at it since, yet I have seen the most horrible falls in my time and some of my favourite horses killed, but I have still returned and still defended the race and NH in general. I did not have another bet at Aintree even though I got the winner.


Now that's criminal
Report casemoney April 16, 2012 11:29 PM BST
Tony should have pulled the horse he didnt know where he had gone or what may have happened,
the horse was even reluctant to look at the 1st fence ,this obviously said with hindsight, but
if only he said there is another day for us ,according to pete connections totally devistated
having had him since a foal and still have his mum ,was travelling well at the time,really need
to ask if its all worth it ,I used to love this meeting more so than chelt ,but the last 2 years have been tragic
dead horses on track etc ,god knows what it must be like for spectators at track at the fences where these
things happen.
Report hello :-) April 16, 2012 11:43 PM BST
Its going to change , right or wrong but it will , this time more than just the public have been affected by events.

I couldnt say for sure but i get the feeling even some of the more dyed in the wool jumps folk are unsure of whats best for the race and racing .
Report tilted April 16, 2012 11:44 PM BST
I was at the National when Alverton died at Becher's. Incredibly sad. Glad modifications have been made at various times since but, as has been said earlier, jockeys seem to push their horses to go faster and as a consequence the total number of finishers (16-20) remains the same. I was expecting 20+ to finish on Saturday but I think it was only 15.
Report Ken O'sback April 16, 2012 11:50 PM BST
Its going to change , right or wrong but it will , this time more than just the public have been affected by events.+-

Its slowly becoming not much more than a gloryfied hurdle courseCryCry
Maybe it will become like Haydock with the fences taken out as they are at present and those temporary things fitted.
Or godforbid a 3 mile all weather strip laid.
Report Facts April 16, 2012 11:50 PM BST
casemoney.


ATP was bought down by another horse. This could happen at any fence at any racecourse. There is too much hysteria about this.
Report casemoney April 17, 2012 12:40 AM BST
I know he was facts ,was cruising as well at the time ,far too many horses have been killed in races over these fences
during the national meeting ,what about other races over the fences with smaller fields anyone know how many horses
have been killed in them ,the fact still remains he had one race over these fences and was killed im sure he would have
had horses fall in front of him during his career prior to this...
Sync had never fallen in previous 20 nh races ..

There was pile up in the foxhunters a couple of years back where a horse literally got kicked to death ,on that occasion the horse and definately the jockey should not have even been allowed to line up, my first bet i can remember
was a shilling ew red aligator ,i have never missed a race at this meeting for as long as i can remember have great
memories of the meeting ,tbh I would prefer them to stay that way ,if you get a fan like me feeling this way ,what must
the casual viewer sitting with his family/kids feel when u have black screens tarpaulins etc all over the place .

My fear for next year is fence dolled off  and a looose horse piling straight through the lot of it, vets screens jockeys dead horses the lot ,that will not make tremendous viewing ,but it will happen :-(
Report PierreLaRogue April 17, 2012 2:17 AM BST
I'm still feeling sad about what happened to this brave horse, its probably the worst since One Man was killed, if i was McCoy i would retire in shame, I couldn't face having the blood of anymore horses on my hands.
Report Dr Gonzo April 17, 2012 9:19 AM BST
if i was McCoy i would retire in shame, I couldn't face having the blood of anymore horses on my hands.

FOYDC
Report Facts April 17, 2012 9:48 AM BST
My fear for next year is fence dolled off  and a looose horse piling straight through the lot of it, vets screens jockeys dead horses the lot ,that will not make tremendous viewing ,but it will happen :-(


I suggest you go and sit in a corner and calm down.Hysteria is a terrible thing - it removes all rational thoughts !
Report Facts April 17, 2012 9:49 AM BST
PierreLaRogue   

That has to be the most ridiculous statement I have read on this forum - and thats saying something.
Report ykickamoocow April 17, 2012 11:28 AM BST
if the piece had been written before the fact then it would be credible,it has no substance at all on this fact alone..reading through this and having had the unfortunate experience of losing horses i have been involved with i am surprised no mention has been made of the people looking after Synchronised and According To Pete the lads and lasses..devastation would be putting it mildly to how they feel without reading the garbage written after the event...

I personally haven't watched the national for years because of the  certainty of equine fatality.in no other race is it more likely that a horse will die..people are talking here about jumping been key but they fail to see that the national is  very unfair with regards to jumping..it tricks horses into a false sense of security...the unfair drops on the landing side of all ready daunting fences...i have walked the national course the year party politics won and in truth it scared the living daylights out of me....the best piece of advice John Joe O Neill ever gave Tony Dobbin before his first national ride was don't walk the course as it will frighten the life out of you...the national has become a farce and a bad advertisement for jump racing.improving the course and the quality of horses running in it only makes it a worst recipe for disaster....blaming connections for running a horse with hindsight is laughable...u cant improve the safety of the national no matter what u do..u cant stop a horse breaking a leg by fixing this and fixing that..it doesn't work that way..one simple solution is get rid of all the fences that are causing the most problems...stats have been put up here to highlight rogue fences..one day we wont be just dealing with equine fatalities but human ones..do we have wait for this to happen for major changes to be implemented.meanwhile spar a thought not only for connections but the people looking after these horses day in day out...

p.s
one issue that also hasn't been put forward here is the pressure from the media circus to run horses in big races..was this not a also a factor.the pressure heaped on henry cecil and peter moody from the media on both sides of the world is frightening at the moment.now frankel is injured what happens next...racing paparazzi at its worst...the media are as guilty as anyone....aftertimersAngry
Report elvissss April 17, 2012 11:37 AM BST
According to Pete trainer wants bigger Grand National fences

Trainer Malcolm Jefferson believes bigger fences at the Grand National could have saved his horse According to Pete, who died after Saturday's race.
Cheltenham Gold Cup winner Synchronised also had to be put down.
The deaths have led to calls for more modifications to the Aintree course.
But Jefferson said: "They can't carry on making changes. In my eyes the fences should be bigger to slow them down. If they were a foot higher Pete would still have jumped them."

An extensive review was carried out following the race 12 months ago when two horses also died.
Changes were made to the course, including reducing the drop on the landing side of Becher's Brook, where According to Pete fell. He was put down after suffering a fractured leg.
Jefferson added: "Now they are trying to please everybody and you can't. People say make the field smaller, but what if next year another two die? Then they'll want 20 runners.
"Watering to ensure softer ground might help. There was a lot of carry-on after last year's race and I just wish they'd stop trying to please everyone because you can't.
"It was just a freak accident. He was loving it, jumping for fun. If he'd just been brought down and got back up again we'd be taking him back next year, but he broke his shoulder unfortunately.
"You can't do anything about it, it's just a freak accident that could have happened anywhere, but because it was the National everyone saw it.
"The National is a great race and the only reason you get such a reaction is because so many people watch it.
"If I have a suitable horse next year, I'll enter him. You've got to support the race, it's our biggest day of the year."
The British Horseracing Authority's chief executive Paul Bittar will meet with animal welfare groups next week to discuss the Grand National.
Charity World Horse Welfare chief executive Roly Owers said: "Racing must understand that the public can no longer stomach almost regular deaths in this high-profile race.
"We fully appreciate, as should everyone, that all horse sport carries risks, but there are acceptable risks and unacceptable risks and it doesn't appear as if that balance is right in the Grand National."
Report efisio. April 17, 2012 11:45 AM BST
Sorry if this has been asked, i haven't read the whole thread, but what on earth has 'Synchronised needs plenty of time to recover from his races' got to do with breaking a leg? I could understand the argument if it died of exhaustion at the end of the race, but it fell and broke a leg.
One of my horses broke his leg trotting around a warm up ring prior to a gallop. Maybe we should ban horses from breaking out of a walk.
Report ykickamoocow April 17, 2012 11:54 AM BST
@efisio
it has nothing to do with it at all.Sunnyhillboy also ran at Cheltenham 29 days before..didnt stop him running well....1 month recovery,perfect..Happythere is a theory out there if u run a horse within a month of winning a gold cup it might break its leg..CrazyCrazy
Report tilted April 17, 2012 12:20 PM BST
There is a theory out there that if u run a horse within a month of winning a gold cup it might break its leg.
There is a theory out there that if u end a Gold Cup winner's season after the Festival you will have a horse to go to war with the following season.
Well blow me down. So much for theories.  Then again Saturday's Grand National would appear to have rubber stamped those theories.
Report hello :-) April 17, 2012 12:33 PM BST
What a massive reaction to the weekends events , purely because this time we lost a champion , a gutsy champion at that .

I dont think anyone involved in racing doesnt feel loss or robbed , i know i do .

I never gave synchronised a second thought regarding defence of his gold cup until that chance was cruely taken away ,we will never see a gold cup horse run there again thats for sure so maybe the race has already lost something that will never return

This race will live long in the memory for the wrong reasons , and being honest as we know now changes bring new dangers so i just dont know what they can do ,

Personally speaking it should be the folk who own the horses that should decide because no one else has so much at stake in this race .
Report thedikler April 17, 2012 12:39 PM BST
In my view the only way to sort this problem is a complete ban on everything. And i mean EVERYTHING Angry
Report tilted April 17, 2012 12:40 PM BST
"we will never see a gold cup horse run there again thats for sure" . . .
That is what those of us who were around in 79 thought when the Sunday Times had a picture of Jonjo cradling Alverton's head in his arms (and crying) at Becher's.
And we hadn't had one run in the race since the mid-90s until JP McManus came along and broke the mould.
He is fully entitled to as an owner, as you say, but I suspect someone else down the line will be tempted by the prospect of an almost unique same-season double.
Report hello :-) April 17, 2012 12:41 PM BST
your a hard man dikkler

I hope you never sieze power Laugh
Report Ken O'sback April 17, 2012 12:58 PM BST
Taken from the Irish independent

Having these top-class runners is not without consequence.

The potential for greater speed early on in the National is increased significantly.

More speed ultimately leads to a higher percentage of fallers, particularly among the lesser beasts that are stretched, not to mention already competing off unfair terms due to the artificial reduction of the top horses' ratings.

The other element that is now adding further to the likelihood of fallers is the very modification of the fences, which serves only to create a false sense of confidence.

When you combine the participation of Grade One horses with the perception that the fences are smaller, the element of fear that encourages horses and jockeys to slow down is eroded.

That may be why nearly 50pc of the field made an early exit on Saturday.

It may also be why the number of equine deaths over the past six years stands at eight, when in the previous six years it read four.

Change isn't always good.

The authorities and the do-gooders should be careful what they wish for
Report Facts April 17, 2012 1:02 PM BST
Change isn't always good.

The authorities and the do-gooders should be careful what they wish for




Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Report acey deucy April 17, 2012 1:04 PM BST
Make the fences BIGGER?..........Sorry but that is the most ridiculous thing i have ever hoyd.
Report ima_mazed66 April 17, 2012 1:25 PM BST
It's not actually but you have to use a little lateral thinking and maybe not be so blinkered and with an open mind to appreciate it.

When something potentially dangerous is made easier then people lose respect for it and take liberties and in the 23 years since the course modifications have been in for the Grand National, deaths of horses has more than doubled compared to in the 23 years prior to the changes. The reasons being having already been pointed out in the thread, such as jockeys going faster in the race, more non-typical National types running in it and jockeys generally riding the horse with less respect for the course than before with far more going up the inner at Becher's now the drop has been modified, which leaves less room and can cause a pile up should one of the early jumpers of it fall.

If the fences were bigger you would have fewer jockeys going around the inner and have a more sensible pace of the race, with jockeys giving the course more respect, considering none of them today will have ridden it before the modifications and how it is now is all they have known. You would also more than likely have trainers only send a certain type of horse for the race too.
Report acey deucy April 17, 2012 1:30 PM BST
Come come,you would still getting the idiot Jockeys going to fast.
Bigger fences
Report acey deucy April 17, 2012 1:32 PM BST
So you really think by making the fences BIGGER the jockeys will go at a Sensible pace?.............Dont make me fookin laugh.
Report hello :-) April 17, 2012 1:33 PM BST
What would you do facts ?
Report ima_mazed66 April 17, 2012 1:51 PM BST
Yes you would still get the "idiot jockeys" going too fast but the Grand National itself isn't the only race run over the course each year and if a few of them rode in the earlier season races or earlier meeting race and weren't getting around or realised the bigger fences needed more respect, then the idiots maybe won't change (they're still going too fast now anyway so what is there to lose?) but maybe after few falls or dodgy moments some of the more experienced and/or sensible ones might.

My main point whether you are with it or not about whether making the fences bigger is a good idea (and I'm not even saying I myself do for that matter) is that making the fences bigger isn't as ridiculous as was previously being said.
Report Ken O'sback April 17, 2012 3:55 PM BST
So you really think by making the fences BIGGER the jockeys will go at a Sensible pace?.............Dont make me fookin laugh.
But if they were raised maybe we would return to having a field of horses that are bred for jumping
Report Facts April 17, 2012 4:37 PM BST
hello :-)     17 Apr 12 13:33 
What would you do facts ?



Adjust landing side at Bechers - otherwise nothing.
Report ima_mazed66 April 17, 2012 4:52 PM BST
The landing side has already been adjusted at Becher's and deaths since the 23 year after making the modification are higher at that fence than in the 23 years prior to making them and maybe what's contributed to that has been more jockeys going up the inner since the drop was modified.
Report dunlaying April 17, 2012 4:59 PM BST
For what it is worth I find the tone of JerkedOff's article objectionable.
I remember ,as a boy ,reading The Daily Express for items by Clive Graham and Sir Peter.
Best of all though was the cartoonist Roy Ullyet,his work was magnificent.
Report Facts April 17, 2012 5:05 PM BST
So was Rupert The Bear Happy
Report dunlaying April 17, 2012 5:12 PM BST
He was resplendent in check trousers and scarf I think.Rupert ,I mean,not Roy Ullyet.

Facts,are you able to refresh my memory concerning the second tipster in The Daily Express at that time.Was it Captain Heath?
Report hello :-) April 17, 2012 5:13 PM BST
Off course some are going to find it objectionable dunlaying , a good article will fuel debate , ask questions and provoke thought , right or wrong the article does that and asks the question almost all other press dared not .

Im sick to death off racing press tip toeing around the tough issues in racing and avoiding the hard questions , whether you think JO was right or wrong the article stood out
Report hello :-) April 17, 2012 5:14 PM BST
The gambols Laugh


wasnt that the express aswell ?
Report Ken O'sback April 17, 2012 5:19 PM BST
It has raised plenty of thoughts on this great race on this thread alone hello :-)

So maybe its been vindicated after all
Report Ken O'sback April 17, 2012 5:22 PM BST
Facts,are you able to refresh my memory concerning the second tipster in The Daily Express at that time.Was it Captain Heath?

Captain Heath was/is the Mail

was not the  express second tipster Bendix (charles benson??)
Report hello :-) April 17, 2012 5:24 PM BST
It was indeed bendix .
Report dunlaying April 17, 2012 5:29 PM BST
Hello,you are right ,of course,that certain issues need to be discussed but I just get the impression that there is a witchhunt being stirred up.
I did like The Gambols.Happy
Report dunlaying April 17, 2012 5:31 PM BST
Thanks Ken,Bendix oh yes.
Report Facts April 17, 2012 5:40 PM BST
Charles Benson was a real character !!
Report Brother Mouzone April 17, 2012 5:41 PM BST
The most violent prisoner in Britain apparently
Report Facts April 17, 2012 5:42 PM BST
Bronson Grin
Report posy April 17, 2012 6:26 PM BST
I seem to remember Charles Benson being mixed up in the Lord Lucan affair...think he gambled with the Aspinall crew.
Report posy April 17, 2012 6:30 PM BST
Totally agree that if the fences were the size they were before the 1990 modifications and if there was a proper ditch at Bechers then the pace of the race would be much slower and there would be many fewer fatalities.
Report themightymac April 17, 2012 6:43 PM BST
I agree too. By lowering the fences they have actually made the race more dangerous. SPEED KILLS. It may sound daft but the stats bear this out. Horses increased substantially when they first began tampering with the course in, I believe 1961, and twice more in the recent 20 years.

1961-2012 (51 years) = 34 horses killed
1839-1960 (121 years) = 36 horses killed

2012   Synchronised (Bechers)
       According to Pete (Bechers)

2011   Ornais (4th/20th)
       Dooneys Gate (Bechers)

2009   Hear The Echo (Collapsed Run In)

2008   McKelvey (Collided with a barrier when running loose after U.R. 4th/20th)

2007   Graphic Approach (Bechers)

2006   Tyneandthyneagain (1st/17th)

2003   Goguenard (3rd/19th)

2002   The Last Fling (Canal Turn)
       Manx Magic (4th/20th)

1999   Eudipe (Bechers)

1998   Pashto (1st/17th)
       Do Rightly (4th/20th)
       Griffins Bar (5th/21st)

1997   Straight Talk (14th/30th)
       Smith's Band (4th/20th)

1996   Rust Never Sleeps (Broke Down)

1991   Ballyhane (Collapsed after race)

1990   Roll-A-Joint (Canal Turn)
       Hungary Hur (Broke Down)

1989   Brown Trix (Bechers)
       Seeandem (Bechers)

1987   Dark Ivy (Bechers)

1984   Earthstopper (Collapsed After Race)

1979   Kintai (The Chair)
       Alverton (Bechers)

1978   Rag Trade (Broke Down)

1977   Winter Rain (Bechers)
       Zeta's Son (Valentines)

1975   Land Lark (The Chair)
       Beau Bob (Bechers)

1973   Grey Sombrero (The Chair)

1967   Vulcano (3rd/19th)

1959   Henry Purcell (Bechers)

1954   Dominick's Bar (2nd/18th)
       Paris New York (4th/20th)
       Legal Joy (13th/29th)
       Coneyburrow (12th/28th)

1952   Skouras (Bechers)

1946   Symbole (Bechers)

1936   Avenger (1st/17th)

1931   Swift Roland (Bechers)
       Drin (Valentines)

1930   Derby Day

1929   Stort

1926   Lone Hand

1922   The Inca (Bechers)
       Awbeg (Canal Turn)

1907   Kilts (1st/17th)

1901   True Blue

1891   The Emperor (P.U. and slipped returning to stables)

1882   Wild Monarch

1872   Primrose (2nd/18th)

1871   Lord Raglan

1868   Chimney Sweep (Collided with Rail)

1863   Telegraph (5th/21st)

1861   The Conductor (Refused and injured in melee at fence)

1856   Banstead (2nd/18th)

1855   Miss Mowbray (5th/21st)

1854   Bedford (Valentines)

1849   The Curate (2nd/18th)
       Equinox (3rd/19th)
       Kilfane (4th/20th)
       
1848   Counsellor   
       The Sailor
       Blue Pill
       
1845   Clansman (Canal Turn)
       
1839   Dictator (Valentines)

FENCE SUMMARY (WHERE KNOWN)

1/17        4
2/18        4
3/19        3
4/20        6
5/21        3
Bechers    16
Foinavon    0
Canal Turn  4
Valentines  4
10/26       0
11/27       0
12/28       1
13/29       1
14/30       1
The Chair   3
Water Jump  0
Report Dr Gonzo April 17, 2012 6:50 PM BST
Not that i'd have a problem with them levelling it out, but Synchronised's death wasn't due to Bechers.
Report Angel Gabrial April 17, 2012 6:58 PM BST
I think we need to evolve a breed of horses who have stronger legs. This is probably the future of the sport. In the science lab.
Report themightymac April 17, 2012 7:15 PM BST
I can see what you mean dr gonzo, but I disagree. Synchronised fell because he was caught out by the unfair drop on the other side of Bechers and he subsequently fell. If he hadn`t fell, he wouldn`t have been running about loose and been fatally injured.
Report Facts April 17, 2012 7:57 PM BST
posy

re; Charles Benson's  associates - Correct.
Report Jocked off April 18, 2012 7:54 AM BST
Facts, Posy, Hello :-)
Good morning to you all.
References to The Gambols, the boy Rupert, Roy Ulyett made me smile.
And yes, Bendix was the second tipster.
Now it is just Bev, our conscientious private handicapper with his form based selections, and me as The Scout and Scotia with my speed figure-based selections. Managed to get Scotia's treble up yesterday but off on hols now until May 1st. Yippee.
I keep in touch with Sir Peter, as kind and charming as ever, but Charles Benson died a while back. Played tennis with him once and with Nigel Dempster on several occasions, when they needed a younger more agile partner to do the running around the court. Happy times.
Report hello :-) April 18, 2012 10:19 AM BST
The handicapper does seem conciencious
Report themightymac April 18, 2012 4:29 PM BST
Charles Benson was a good journalist. He was a great friend of Robert Sangster and used to put some good winners up, from good sources.
Report posy April 19, 2012 5:40 PM BST
Jocked Off
I remember reading that Charles Benson was suspected of helping Lucan escape after the murder.....if you knew him you must be able to recount some riveting stories...could you be persuaded to share them on this forum !
Report History Maker April 19, 2012 5:44 PM BST
Graphic Approach was another one that fell at Becher's but sustained his fatal injuries when running loose.
Report History Maker April 19, 2012 5:46 PM BST
Also, I suspect that deaths were under-reported in the 19th and early 20th century.
Report zilzal1 April 19, 2012 5:54 PM BST
I read Bensons book a long time ago, i think it was called "No Regard for money" Had a pic of him laying on the beach looking like a whale if i remember rightlyLaugh
Report breadnbutter April 19, 2012 5:55 PM BST
one just copped it on the flat .......whats the wishy washy brigade gonna do to stop such accidents ?

the silence will be deafning .

once the jumps game has gone the flat will follow .

maybe the flat should go first as its only about money .
Report Wesdag April 19, 2012 6:31 PM BST
Why wasn't this article published before the National?

Always easy to be wise after the event.
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