Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
27 Oct 11
22:49
Joined:
Date Joined:
30 Mar 08
Struggling to see how the pro-whips are going to win this argument unless they come up with some new arguments or convincingly explain the current necessity for jockeys to use whips in races. I want to be convinced for the entertainment aspect but still havent heard one solid reason not to ban it either on the forum or from jockey/trainer quotes.
It encourages lazy horses - non argument. There are horses out there who dont run to their full potential with the whip so why does it matter if some are lazy without it? A race is a race and it would be better for punters once you know which horses are willing and which ones arent.
Safety of horse/ safety of others - unconvincing argument. Have seen horses swerve due to whip and seen plenty of jockeys straighten up horses without whip.
More entertaining with whip - true. It signals the exciting finale in the race and showcases jockeys skills. I dont want to see this go but racing can live without it.
Not enough reason to ban it - well, clearly some people think its abuse but equally importantly, there just isn't a way of giving a jockey a whip and saying 'do everything to win the race but dont overuse the whip'. There will always be differeing views of what was too much and what was too little, which also increases suspicion of losing rides. There will always be some horses who react better or worse to the whip which makes punting more difficult.
I predict the current chaos continues and whipping is banned by the end of the year as the only solution to the current mess.
It encourages lazy horses - non argument. There are horses out there who dont run to their full potential with the whip so why does it matter if some are lazy without it? A race is a race and it would be better for punters once you know which horses are willing and which ones arent.
Safety of horse/ safety of others - unconvincing argument. Have seen horses swerve due to whip and seen plenty of jockeys straighten up horses without whip.
More entertaining with whip - true. It signals the exciting finale in the race and showcases jockeys skills. I dont want to see this go but racing can live without it.
Not enough reason to ban it - well, clearly some people think its abuse but equally importantly, there just isn't a way of giving a jockey a whip and saying 'do everything to win the race but dont overuse the whip'. There will always be differeing views of what was too much and what was too little, which also increases suspicion of losing rides. There will always be some horses who react better or worse to the whip which makes punting more difficult.
I predict the current chaos continues and whipping is banned by the end of the year as the only solution to the current mess.
Show More
Look at the last few festivals, most of them would now be banned under the new rules. now tell me people are going to be betting on them as much, apart from the Breeders Cup i wont be having many bets this winter until i see how this affects top class racing in the Nh game
imo any whip agreement has to be universal, you wouldnt get much foreign involvement with British racing if it universally banned the whip
Unilateral argument - yes, in theory the sport should be regulated worldwide imo but britain has to decided to take the lead/cave into minority groups (whichever your preference) so the current situation is chaos. I wouldnt have minded if all of this debate had never come up but its here and Britain is clearly making its own rules
^ although keeping the sport unilateral is a really good argument that i havent heard any jockeys or trainers use as yet..
That`s because you haven`t been listening.
Horses have always been controlled with whips since the Middle Ages to my knowledge.
Horses have always been controlled with whips since the Middle Ages to my knowledge.
I suggest that you read the BHA report which can be found on the BHA website
You may be surprised - if you do - to find that the arguments which you reject as "non-argument" and "unconvincing" were (ironically) fully accepted as valid ones in the report.
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, I would not want to be whipless - particularly if the possible outcome is my broken neck and the horses' death?
You may be surprised - if you do - to find that the arguments which you reject as "non-argument" and "unconvincing" were (ironically) fully accepted as valid ones in the report.
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, I would not want to be whipless - particularly if the possible outcome is my broken neck and the horses' death?
i reckon 99% of people who comment on this have never read the report and plenty have never seen a horse either
Horses always been controlled with whips - and i imagine they always will be to some extent. I still havent heard the argument why it's necessary for a race to happen. Maybe because I havent been listening.
I havent read the report, and as irrelevant as this is, I haven't sat on a horse, am not a vegetarian, do not work for the BHA, do enjoy NH racing.
My point was that the pro-whip arguments arent getting through.
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, I would not want to be whipless - particularly if the possible outcome is my broken neck and the horses' death?
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, i could as easily kill us both by using the whip? The problem for the pro-whip argument is that there are countless more examples of the latter than the former
My point was that the pro-whip arguments arent getting through.
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, I would not want to be whipless - particularly if the possible outcome is my broken neck and the horses' death?
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, i could as easily kill us both by using the whip? The problem for the pro-whip argument is that there are countless more examples of the latter than the former
So one of the pro-whip arguments is that it helps a horse time a jump at a fence helping the horse and jockey get over safely. That's a new one on me tbf.
And for the flat jocks? Have they got an equally killer argument?
And for the flat jocks? Have they got an equally killer argument?
I`m sorry but if you know ANYTHING about racing you really should know the former. I don`t think you are worth arguing with at this time of night.
Pleasegivemeanailedontip 27 Oct 11 23:49
I predict the current chaos continues and whipping is banned by the end of the year as the only solution to the current mess.
--------------------------------------------
You are also predicting the END of British racing.
Nobody will be, seriously, on races run without the whip - only the 10p Lucky15 daydreamers will continue.
At a time when the new in-coming Chief Executive of the BHA, Paul Bittar - has made his number one priority to address and increase the LEVY -
He will not face an uphill task - BUT an impossible one - given Whipless racing.
That's an absolute 1.01. ...... in betting terms.
I predict the current chaos continues and whipping is banned by the end of the year as the only solution to the current mess.
--------------------------------------------
You are also predicting the END of British racing.
Nobody will be, seriously, on races run without the whip - only the 10p Lucky15 daydreamers will continue.
At a time when the new in-coming Chief Executive of the BHA, Paul Bittar - has made his number one priority to address and increase the LEVY -
He will not face an uphill task - BUT an impossible one - given Whipless racing.
That's an absolute 1.01. ...... in betting terms.
I'll be betting with no whip, I'll expect to win more (no more getting touched off by unbackable overwhipped gambles) and if other successful gamblers decide to pack it in all the more for me.
If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence and don't think that it is going to time its leap properly, i could as easily kill us both by using the whip? The problem for the pro-whip argument is that there are countless more examples of the latter than the former
worst recent example can remember was Shay Barry gong whip happy on Hairy Molly at Killarney last August. Horse was jumping fine, idiot decides to hit it down the shoulder, barely takes off at the last, you know the rest.
worst recent example can remember was Shay Barry gong whip happy on Hairy Molly at Killarney last August. Horse was jumping fine, idiot decides to hit it down the shoulder, barely takes off at the last, you know the rest.
Shane Byrne who rode Work Boy to win at Haydock also gave that one a whack at the last. Horse won, but totally unnecessary, as horse was jumping ok.
Was a case where thankful that he did get banned, ironically for 1 strike over the limit
Was a case where thankful that he did get banned, ironically for 1 strike over the limit
Feck you claim that NH racing is cruel how then can you bet on it. Have you no conscience!
Pedrobob
Do you just watch races to see if a jockey has in your view been cruel or are you actually interested in the sport ?
This a gambling horse racing forum for people who enjoy their racing
So if your not interested just post your absurd comments on a tree hugging forum
Do you just watch races to see if a jockey has in your view been cruel or are you actually interested in the sport ?
This a gambling horse racing forum for people who enjoy their racing
So if your not interested just post your absurd comments on a tree hugging forum
if you have seen any of my other comments in the last 2 weeks, ranader, you would find it difficult to describe me as anti-whip.
Just pointing out 2 cases where the whip was totally unnecessary (1 resulting in the death of a former Champion Bumper winner aged 10, who had only fallen in 2 of his previous 25 starts over jumps).
Some jocks are whip happy and need to be educated.
Just pointing out 2 cases where the whip was totally unnecessary (1 resulting in the death of a former Champion Bumper winner aged 10, who had only fallen in 2 of his previous 25 starts over jumps).
Some jocks are whip happy and need to be educated.
lacson 28 Oct 11 00:09
"If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence.... "
Where are these 6 foot fences you speak of? I'm surprised, having read a couple of your other posts, that you've resorted to this kind of sensationalist stuff lacson.
"If I were on a novice chaser heading at 30 mph straight for a 6 foot fence.... "
Where are these 6 foot fences you speak of? I'm surprised, having read a couple of your other posts, that you've resorted to this kind of sensationalist stuff lacson.
Where has this safety argument come from? I only read people spouting about it on here. To the best of my knowledge, the BHA, RSPCA, WHW and, even A flipping A, have never said people shouldn't carry whips for safety purposes. Correction will always be allowed, it's the encouragement element the debate revolves around.
(btw, gigspig, If you're with wolfatthedoor you've backed the wrong horse, mate. A few, just a few, mind, of the 'pros' are capable of arguing their position intelligently and without name-calling. He fails on both counts).
I see the usual suspects are on here.
I don't care what GG, TH and Feck say they are not gamblers. They may be part time punters but they are definitely not gamblers.
The 'no whip' brigade do not bet on horses seriously because it is a cheat's charter. Why anyone listens to this bunch I don't know. They turn up on every whip debate spouting their complete ignorance of our sport.
And, as I said, they can give you all the bullsh@t they like, they are not genuine gamblers.
And I will give you a 'nailedontip' the whip won't be banned anytime soon. So you 'no whip' guys why don't you go away and play with yourselves. Leave the genuine horse racing people to discuss their sport sensibly.
I don't care what GG, TH and Feck say they are not gamblers. They may be part time punters but they are definitely not gamblers.
The 'no whip' brigade do not bet on horses seriously because it is a cheat's charter. Why anyone listens to this bunch I don't know. They turn up on every whip debate spouting their complete ignorance of our sport.
And, as I said, they can give you all the bullsh@t they like, they are not genuine gamblers.
And I will give you a 'nailedontip' the whip won't be banned anytime soon. So you 'no whip' guys why don't you go away and play with yourselves. Leave the genuine horse racing people to discuss their sport sensibly.
BTW, can you tell Betfair that I don't gamble, please? They might let me off the Premium Charge then ysfc.
Rung the RSPCA up yet, btw, brig?
Or do you think you can change the world sitting in yer scratchers having another meltdown on the Betfair forum???
Or do you think you can change the world sitting in yer scratchers having another meltdown on the Betfair forum???
This good enough for ya 'brigust'??
2011-10-05
12:23 90009869016 2011-10-05
12:23
Premium Charge for week commencing 26 Sep 11 - CC663 - ADJ52 - - - (3,607.31)
2011-10-02
15:39 16495259947 2011-09-27
16:34 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 32.00 391.00 Won 12,121.00 39,691.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16494994716 2011-09-27
16:19 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 32.00 55.00 Won 1,705.00 27,570.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16494992770 2011-09-27
16:19 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 36.00 20.00 Won 700.00 25,865.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16394188285 2011-09-20
00:43 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 44.00 5.00 Won 215.00 25,165.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16390637428 2011-09-19
18:25 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 38.00 8.00 Won 296.00 24,950.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16303507595 2011-09-13
14:54 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 36.00 6.00 Won 210.00 24,654.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16292186869 2011-09-12
14:35 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 36.00 2.00 Won 70.00 24,444.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16139071976 2011-08-31
22:32 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 1,000.00 19.71 Won 19,690.29 24,374.04
2011-10-02
15:39 15850409127 2011-08-10
12:11 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 510.00 2.00 Won 1,018.00 4,683.75
Run along little boy........and leave the real punters to sort this out......
2011-10-05
12:23 90009869016 2011-10-05
12:23
Premium Charge for week commencing 26 Sep 11 - CC663 - ADJ52 - - - (3,607.31)
2011-10-02
15:39 16495259947 2011-09-27
16:34 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 32.00 391.00 Won 12,121.00 39,691.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16494994716 2011-09-27
16:19 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 32.00 55.00 Won 1,705.00 27,570.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16494992770 2011-09-27
16:19 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 36.00 20.00 Won 700.00 25,865.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16394188285 2011-09-20
00:43 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 44.00 5.00 Won 215.00 25,165.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16390637428 2011-09-19
18:25 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 38.00 8.00 Won 296.00 24,950.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16303507595 2011-09-13
14:54 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 36.00 6.00 Won 210.00 24,654.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16292186869 2011-09-12
14:35 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 36.00 2.00 Won 70.00 24,444.04
2011-10-02
15:39 16139071976 2011-08-31
22:32 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 1,000.00 19.71 Won 19,690.29 24,374.04
2011-10-02
15:39 15850409127 2011-08-10
12:11 FRA Long (FRA) 2nd Oct / Arc De Triomphe / Danedream
Back 510.00 2.00 Won 1,018.00 4,683.75
Run along little boy........and leave the real punters to sort this out......
The Headmaster talking rubbish about the PC. He really hasn't a clue has he. You know Head, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
I know your talking sh@t, Bf knows your talking sh@t, so 'Stop' talking sh@t.
But I have to agree I promised myself not to get embroiled with this bunch of 'usual suspects' so I will leave you to your own idea of rubbish.
I know your talking sh@t, Bf knows your talking sh@t, so 'Stop' talking sh@t.
But I have to agree I promised myself not to get embroiled with this bunch of 'usual suspects' so I will leave you to your own idea of rubbish.
Oh dear, brig....you should always hit 'refresh' before posting, I reckon!
Anybody who BACKED Danedream knows sod all about racing imo 
A few, just a few, mind, of the 'pros' are capable of arguing their position intelligently and without name-calling.
To be followed by..........
They might let me off the Premium Charge then ysfc.
To be followed by..........
They might let me off the Premium Charge then ysfc.
TH you and I know you are talking sh@t. I would take this further but I won't. I will leave you in your own little world.
Give us a list of horses it's acceptable to have had it off on then, SS, I'm sure one of them will be in here somewhere! 
brigust, you're tiny mind would love to take it further, I'm sure. You've run out of bullets though, pal.
I don't bet, ffs!
Jog on.
I don't bet, ffs!
Jog on.
Admit it headmaster you are a paid up member of the RSPCA and animal rights activist groups.
Pasting that list of fantasy bets on here will inmpress nobody
I do not blame the likes of wolf and brigust giving the likes of yourself short shrift
Genuine supporters of racing are getting sick to death of your mob spouting endless anti racing nonsense on a gambling horse racing forum
Pasting that list of fantasy bets on here will inmpress nobody
I do not blame the likes of wolf and brigust giving the likes of yourself short shrift
Genuine supporters of racing are getting sick to death of your mob spouting endless anti racing nonsense on a gambling horse racing forum
When I come back in the next life, please of please let it be as a race horse
4 months annual leave
all clothing feed and accomadation supplied
no expenses
cough and a doctor comes
sneeze and you get an extra weeks holiday.
work for 20 minutes a day for 9 months of the year
and 10 times a year you get hit on the ars#.
fcking good life in my book
4 months annual leave
all clothing feed and accomadation supplied
no expenses
cough and a doctor comes
sneeze and you get an extra weeks holiday.
work for 20 minutes a day for 9 months of the year
and 10 times a year you get hit on the ars#.
fcking good life in my book
the headmaster,gerry gallingbladder and co all come across as animal rights members parading as punters to promote their own minority misguided agenda - sad individuals - can you imagine going down the pub with them - sorry lads your games up - grow up,move on and get a life.
Seen a few new ids coming in giving it all this cruelty lark ? suspicious eh. Like someone posted earlier are they trying to ban the horsejumping at hickstead and burghley so vociferously ? i must venture on to some posh forums and have a gander.
Of course starving children.
Child abuse, world peace etc
are not worth fighting for.
Lets get our priorites right
Hit a horse or shot a duck and you are a criminal
Child abuse, world peace etc
are not worth fighting for.
Lets get our priorites right
Hit a horse or shot a duck and you are a criminal
On PLANET TW@T you might be able to knock up a P&L that quickly but in the real world (hello?) it's only possible via copying and pasting from your account statement.
Far from working me for the RSPCA....I would urge you to contact them and air your views. It would help enormously imo.
Or are you another one who thinks they can change the world on the Betfair forum, ranader???
Far from working me for the RSPCA....I would urge you to contact them and air your views. It would help enormously imo.
Or are you another one who thinks they can change the world on the Betfair forum, ranader???
I assume that every one who is against hitting horses is a vegetarian.
Taken from another thread.
Write:
RSPCA Enquiries Service
Wilberforce Way
Southwater
Horsham
West Sussex
RH13 9RS
E-Mail:
https://www.rspca.org.uk/myrspca
Phone:
0300 123 4999 / 0300 1234 555
Fax:
0303 123 0100
Come on boys - 'save our sport'.......or maybe you think it achieves more to sit there and name-call on this forum?
Write:
RSPCA Enquiries Service
Wilberforce Way
Southwater
Horsham
West Sussex
RH13 9RS
E-Mail:
https://www.rspca.org.uk/myrspca
Phone:
0300 123 4999 / 0300 1234 555
Fax:
0303 123 0100
Come on boys - 'save our sport'.......or maybe you think it achieves more to sit there and name-call on this forum?
We went thorugh this cr@p in Aust Harness and thoroughbred racing, they tighten the laws to keep the tree huggers happy.
The tree huggers go away to save the patagonian puff pepper, and everything reverts to normal, the stewards turn a blind eye.
The tree huggers go away to save the patagonian puff pepper, and everything reverts to normal, the stewards turn a blind eye.
I did say I would leave it and I promise I will now.
But finally: When your in a hole TH, stop digging. You and I know what we are talking about.
But finally: When your in a hole TH, stop digging. You and I know what we are talking about.
I joined bf in 2002 and I've been a sleeper since then just waiting for this whip debate to come to the fore. I've never had a bet in that time and anything I've posted down the years (particularly about being beaten in photos by thrashed gambles) has been a red herring.
Feck N. Eejits
Feck N. Eejits
Tbf the anti-whip brigade seem to me to be a mixed bunch. The Headmaster and GG haven`t just joined to stir on this issue. Both claim to like racing and I am reluctant to call them liars. I think they are just wrong.
feck I know has been around for years but he is normally to be found on General Betting so I have had little to do with him. renge/egner who seems to have disappeared admitted to knowing little about horse racing but is successful cos he is good at maths. Could be right. One poster is almost certainly a different matter as his s/d is 5th Oct. Very convenient. There may be one or two more who are really just propagandists for one of the so-called animal welfare groups. The politics forum was certainly infiltrated by the BNP a couple of years ago so it`s not entirely an unknown phenomenom.
feck I know has been around for years but he is normally to be found on General Betting so I have had little to do with him. renge/egner who seems to have disappeared admitted to knowing little about horse racing but is successful cos he is good at maths. Could be right. One poster is almost certainly a different matter as his s/d is 5th Oct. Very convenient. There may be one or two more who are really just propagandists for one of the so-called animal welfare groups. The politics forum was certainly infiltrated by the BNP a couple of years ago so it`s not entirely an unknown phenomenom.
I have no intention whatsoever of airing my views at the RSPCA an organisation who would like racing banned in the long run.Life is just too bloody short
However neither do I agree with them posting on here under non de plumes like 'the headmaster' and pretending to be bona fide supporters of racing
I am here to discuss horse racing related issues with fellow punters who love the sport and enjoy a punt
We will not change the world but hey whats wrong with some craic in between times
However neither do I agree with them posting on here under non de plumes like 'the headmaster' and pretending to be bona fide supporters of racing
I am here to discuss horse racing related issues with fellow punters who love the sport and enjoy a punt
We will not change the world but hey whats wrong with some craic in between times
How can you post on the forum with out ever having had a bet.
One of the stipulations b4 I could post was i had to have invested my 6 bucks
One of the stipulations b4 I could post was i had to have invested my 6 bucks
Take from another forum
2031 and a racing correspondent looks back
***Royal Ascot in China***Paul Nicholls Minister of Sport***Whip Abolition***Ireland Resurgent***and much more
THE opening ceremony of the first Royal Ascot to be held in China prompted this correspondent to review the defining events in the English Turf's sad decline over the past 20 years.
There are some who trace the death of English racing back to the introduction of the all-weather and all-year round National Hunt. There were those that predicted it would die when Her Majesty the Queen died, though I am happy to report that though Her Majesty is still with us at the ripe old age of 105, horseracing in England is just a memory.
When the British Horseracing Authority brought in its whip rules in 2011 it was almost a textbook case of hasty, ill-thought-out legislation. Like much lawmaking of the period it did not place practicality as a matter of first importance but rather fashionable opinion - the law of the babbling flock. The Turf was always esoteric, that was part of its enduring appeal to many of us. But that mystery was also its undoing, because the modern world, which thanks to Hollywood had turned animals into human personalities, could not bear to see a horse hit and the sport itself was quite unable to explain the necessity of doing so and how little it harm it caused.
Animal rights lobbyists, with the ever-ready assistance of the mass media, cooked up a furore after the 2010 Grand National and the BHA decided the problem was one of image. Change the image, they reasoned, and all would be well. This was classic Political Class thinking: the long shadow of Tony Blair-era gesture politics which had entered irrevocably into British civil life. This sort of lawmaking was an odd mixture of high-handedness and cowardice: we'll dress a fudge up, impose it ruthlessly and it will make things *look* all right.
The BHA had a few options. One, they could have embarked on a long period of public education. It would have been arduous but given time the arguments surrounding whip use would have filtered through and an informed public debate could have occurred: journalists would have been able to put an opposing argument to the anti-whip lobby.
The BHA could have been bold and abolished the Grand National. With what was to happen to jump racing in the following decades it now seems a punt that was worth taking. Yes, such an abolition would have been high-handed but it would also have been brave.
The 'National was both racing's biggest advert and its biggest public relations disaster. The young and not-so-young were increasingly taking a reductive view of the race: 'horses killed for our amusement. Nice.'
The abolition of the race would have given the anti-whip lobby a big scalp and closed racing's shop window to the public. It would have bought National Hunt perhaps another 20 years without the general public taking any notice of it and therefore being inevitably offended by it.
But as things stood, every April at Aintree brought new safety demands. Within ten years and after the Lab-Lib Coalition of 2015 abolished the BHA and created RaceSafe, a new quango which held absolute authority over the sport, fences were abolished along with the whip and hurdles had to be made of foam and be no higher than 18 inches.
After a long and sad period of jockey strikes and racecourse blockades, much of the jump racing fraternity relocated to Ireland, with the Cheltenham Festival held at a purpose-built replica of the track constructed in County Wexford with money illegally diverted, some claimed, from EU bailout cash. It contimues to be threatened by proposed safety diktats from Brussels.
A small pocket of National Hunt racing survived when the Counties of Cornwall and Devon declared their independence from England in 2018 and Paul Nicholls was made the Minister of Sport for the new State. West Country tracks thrived behind the barbed wire at the Devon border crossing. In the years following the counties' independence some defunct Flat tracks relocated there in new grounds.
Flat racing revenues had nosedived by 2020. Bookmakers, long-used to draining funds from the sport and not channelling them back continued the trend, arguing that punters actually preferred poor racing with highly unpredictable outcomes.
In 2021 Goodwood racecourse announced it was relocating to the Far East, where rampant emerging markets and gambling mania provided the funds for an exact replica of the classic track, which was created with microclimate engineering.
Riding at the inaugural 2021 Hong Kong-Goodwood meeting legendary jockey Richard Hughes said: 'It's just like the old Goodwood - but you can get beef chow mein as well!' Though Flat racing was never officially banned in the UK, the abolition of the whip and rapidly declining revenue sealed its fate. To this correspondent, the sight of a housing estate on Prestbury Park, a mile and a half of allotments where once horses raced at Brighton and the Ascot grandstand complex converted into social housing remains a sad sight and an enduring warning to other countries about the folly of bending to the prejudices of the ignorant.
2031 and a racing correspondent looks back
***Royal Ascot in China***Paul Nicholls Minister of Sport***Whip Abolition***Ireland Resurgent***and much more
THE opening ceremony of the first Royal Ascot to be held in China prompted this correspondent to review the defining events in the English Turf's sad decline over the past 20 years.
There are some who trace the death of English racing back to the introduction of the all-weather and all-year round National Hunt. There were those that predicted it would die when Her Majesty the Queen died, though I am happy to report that though Her Majesty is still with us at the ripe old age of 105, horseracing in England is just a memory.
When the British Horseracing Authority brought in its whip rules in 2011 it was almost a textbook case of hasty, ill-thought-out legislation. Like much lawmaking of the period it did not place practicality as a matter of first importance but rather fashionable opinion - the law of the babbling flock. The Turf was always esoteric, that was part of its enduring appeal to many of us. But that mystery was also its undoing, because the modern world, which thanks to Hollywood had turned animals into human personalities, could not bear to see a horse hit and the sport itself was quite unable to explain the necessity of doing so and how little it harm it caused.
Animal rights lobbyists, with the ever-ready assistance of the mass media, cooked up a furore after the 2010 Grand National and the BHA decided the problem was one of image. Change the image, they reasoned, and all would be well. This was classic Political Class thinking: the long shadow of Tony Blair-era gesture politics which had entered irrevocably into British civil life. This sort of lawmaking was an odd mixture of high-handedness and cowardice: we'll dress a fudge up, impose it ruthlessly and it will make things *look* all right.
The BHA had a few options. One, they could have embarked on a long period of public education. It would have been arduous but given time the arguments surrounding whip use would have filtered through and an informed public debate could have occurred: journalists would have been able to put an opposing argument to the anti-whip lobby.
The BHA could have been bold and abolished the Grand National. With what was to happen to jump racing in the following decades it now seems a punt that was worth taking. Yes, such an abolition would have been high-handed but it would also have been brave.
The 'National was both racing's biggest advert and its biggest public relations disaster. The young and not-so-young were increasingly taking a reductive view of the race: 'horses killed for our amusement. Nice.'
The abolition of the race would have given the anti-whip lobby a big scalp and closed racing's shop window to the public. It would have bought National Hunt perhaps another 20 years without the general public taking any notice of it and therefore being inevitably offended by it.
But as things stood, every April at Aintree brought new safety demands. Within ten years and after the Lab-Lib Coalition of 2015 abolished the BHA and created RaceSafe, a new quango which held absolute authority over the sport, fences were abolished along with the whip and hurdles had to be made of foam and be no higher than 18 inches.
After a long and sad period of jockey strikes and racecourse blockades, much of the jump racing fraternity relocated to Ireland, with the Cheltenham Festival held at a purpose-built replica of the track constructed in County Wexford with money illegally diverted, some claimed, from EU bailout cash. It contimues to be threatened by proposed safety diktats from Brussels.
A small pocket of National Hunt racing survived when the Counties of Cornwall and Devon declared their independence from England in 2018 and Paul Nicholls was made the Minister of Sport for the new State. West Country tracks thrived behind the barbed wire at the Devon border crossing. In the years following the counties' independence some defunct Flat tracks relocated there in new grounds.
Flat racing revenues had nosedived by 2020. Bookmakers, long-used to draining funds from the sport and not channelling them back continued the trend, arguing that punters actually preferred poor racing with highly unpredictable outcomes.
In 2021 Goodwood racecourse announced it was relocating to the Far East, where rampant emerging markets and gambling mania provided the funds for an exact replica of the classic track, which was created with microclimate engineering.
Riding at the inaugural 2021 Hong Kong-Goodwood meeting legendary jockey Richard Hughes said: 'It's just like the old Goodwood - but you can get beef chow mein as well!' Though Flat racing was never officially banned in the UK, the abolition of the whip and rapidly declining revenue sealed its fate. To this correspondent, the sight of a housing estate on Prestbury Park, a mile and a half of allotments where once horses raced at Brighton and the Ascot grandstand complex converted into social housing remains a sad sight and an enduring warning to other countries about the folly of bending to the prejudices of the ignorant.
Most anti racing, anti whip, anti hunting people, really don't give a sh1t about animals. What does worry them is somebody else enjoying themselves
It's all a storm in a tea cup. would any government let a multi billion pound industry , that employs 10 of thousands go down the tube foe the sake of a handful of misguided vankers.
The vankers will make it difficult but in the end , they will be seen for wht they are ****s
The vankers will make it difficult but in the end , they will be seen for wht they are ****s
Barney The Bot Slayer 28 Oct 11 11:56
When I come back in the next life, please of please let it be as a race horse
4 months annual leave
all clothing feed and accomadation supplied
no expenses
cough and a doctor comes
sneeze and you get an extra weeks holiday.
work for 20 minutes a day for 9 months of the year
and 10 times a year you get hit on the ars#.
fcking good life in my book
You forgot to add the bit about being transported to a foreign slaughterhose once the owner - who really does love the horse - decides that there's no more value to be squeezed out.
p.s. I know that this is not the fate of every ex-racehorse (plenty on here give the horses they own a proper retirement) but it is the fate suffered by far too many.
When I come back in the next life, please of please let it be as a race horse
4 months annual leave
all clothing feed and accomadation supplied
no expenses
cough and a doctor comes
sneeze and you get an extra weeks holiday.
work for 20 minutes a day for 9 months of the year
and 10 times a year you get hit on the ars#.
fcking good life in my book
You forgot to add the bit about being transported to a foreign slaughterhose once the owner - who really does love the horse - decides that there's no more value to be squeezed out.
p.s. I know that this is not the fate of every ex-racehorse (plenty on here give the horses they own a proper retirement) but it is the fate suffered by far too many.
^ gerry gallblader and an animal rights extreme fanatic.
Spot the difference?
lol
Spot the difference?
lol
No way salmon. If I had my way, I'd make it a rule of racehorse ownership that the current owner had to ensure that the horse was cared for for its whole life.
Gerry wants to ban virtually everything concerning animals - but does he get of his bkside and work at a animal shelter, no his is a cerebal protest.
ban racing and I am sure they would all get jobs as bakers and milk cart horses.
So there would be no buyers for half the yearlings submitted at the sales Gerry. What happens to them pray ?
or food yum yum its only a animal like a cow or a pig or a pastie.
salmon - ultimately there would less horses bred for racing simply by virtue of the fact that many owners would not want the expense of caring for a racehorse in retirement
Safety at fences argument - The BRS rule for hands & heels races is..
6. In Hurdle and Steeplechase races the whip may be used down the shoulder in the backhand position, with both hands on the reins when approaching an obstacle, i.e. within four or five strides of take-off.
From what ive read some jockeys prefer to give a tired horse a tap to 'wake the horse up' before a fence while other Jockeys prefer to transfer the responsibility to the horse and let it find its own way. The hands and heels rule looks to have jumping safety covered but others may disagree.
Less people will gamble argument - from a serious punting angle i dont understand why people would stop betting. What do you gain if whipping is banned? No uncertainty of jockey losing his whip, using it badly, being beaten by a horse who suddenly responds to the whip. What would you lose from a punting angle? Absolutely nothing.
It's possible that racing fans would turn off the sport and that would bring punting revenue down. But it will be difficult to debate that 'we need the whip in racing because the fans want to see horses whipped'.
6. In Hurdle and Steeplechase races the whip may be used down the shoulder in the backhand position, with both hands on the reins when approaching an obstacle, i.e. within four or five strides of take-off.
From what ive read some jockeys prefer to give a tired horse a tap to 'wake the horse up' before a fence while other Jockeys prefer to transfer the responsibility to the horse and let it find its own way. The hands and heels rule looks to have jumping safety covered but others may disagree.
Less people will gamble argument - from a serious punting angle i dont understand why people would stop betting. What do you gain if whipping is banned? No uncertainty of jockey losing his whip, using it badly, being beaten by a horse who suddenly responds to the whip. What would you lose from a punting angle? Absolutely nothing.
It's possible that racing fans would turn off the sport and that would bring punting revenue down. But it will be difficult to debate that 'we need the whip in racing because the fans want to see horses whipped'.
Ultimately that would probably be the outcome. But in the meantime..... ?
Perspective.
if a horse is hit, then all is above board, seemingly
if a horse is hit, then all is above board, seemingly
salmon - you'd have to announce an intention to introduce this rule some time hence (say 2016). This would give all parties (chiefly owners and breeders) ample opportunity to adjust their approach.
or food yum yum its only a animal like a cow or a pig or a pastie
many a true word..
A French restaurant in Edinburgh, Scotland is the first in the UK to offer "saucisson de cheval", or horse meat. Diners are devouring it faster than the restaurant can keep it on hand.
Restaurant L'escargot Bleu started serving donkey meat three months ago, which became so popular that the restaurant decided to put horse meat on the menu.
The horse meat can be ordered as a steak with peppercorn sauce or as a steak tartare - raw, with an egg yolk, mustard, gherkins, shallots, parsley and olive oil
Restaurant owner Frederique Berkmiller, from Tours in France, said he was serving horse meat because the public was ready for it.
"Food has changed very quickly in the last 10 years. We eat horse meat in France and so do a lot of British people when they're over there. It's very lean, very tender and anyone who likes red meat would love it," said Berkmiller
sounds delicious.lol
many a true word..
A French restaurant in Edinburgh, Scotland is the first in the UK to offer "saucisson de cheval", or horse meat. Diners are devouring it faster than the restaurant can keep it on hand.
Restaurant L'escargot Bleu started serving donkey meat three months ago, which became so popular that the restaurant decided to put horse meat on the menu.
The horse meat can be ordered as a steak with peppercorn sauce or as a steak tartare - raw, with an egg yolk, mustard, gherkins, shallots, parsley and olive oil
Restaurant owner Frederique Berkmiller, from Tours in France, said he was serving horse meat because the public was ready for it.
"Food has changed very quickly in the last 10 years. We eat horse meat in France and so do a lot of British people when they're over there. It's very lean, very tender and anyone who likes red meat would love it," said Berkmiller
sounds delicious.lol
But you would ban the whip tomorrow Gerry not in 2016.
Salmon - yes! Peronally I doubt that there would be a mad rush by owners to sell their horses if the whip was banned tomorrow. These owners love their horses don't forget.
So i think its established that the overwhelming majority of those involved in racing or who follow racing would like to go back to the old whip guidelines.
The bha have sadly given oxygen to minority animal rights groups and some media types courting public opinion.
Lets be sensible,go back to the old guidelines and get on with enjoying racing.
The bha have sadly given oxygen to minority animal rights groups and some media types courting public opinion.
Lets be sensible,go back to the old guidelines and get on with enjoying racing.
You can`t have your cake and eat it Gerry. You are obviously been sarcastic about owners and their love for their horses so if you are right as is being said quite a few more would end up at the slaughterhouse.
salmon - I was being slightly sarcastic but all the same, I dont think that banning the whip would result in owners dumping horses overnight. Plenty of owners have horses for years without winning (and certainly without winning often). A whip ban would be unlikely to make things worse for such owners and you never know, it might even improve their lot.
Zebadei, i think there's a slim chance (but really slim) that if the jockeys keep the mouths shut for a month and ride out a trial period of the current crap rules, then they can justifiably release a statment saying 'We've tried this, we think the BHAs investigation wasnt professionally conducted and we want the old rules reinstated while someone does a proper review'.
I dont think the jockeys can toe a line though. I think they will complain, take their ball home and flout the rules without giving any solid proposals of their own. The BHA will propose that hands & heels is the only way to keep everyone happy and its checkmate.
I dont think the jockeys can toe a line though. I think they will complain, take their ball home and flout the rules without giving any solid proposals of their own. The BHA will propose that hands & heels is the only way to keep everyone happy and its checkmate.
I`m not convinced. I agree some owners seem to persevere with horses that look unlikely ever to win,but others cull pretty ruthlessly. I think there are plenty of horses whose oners will think they can`t win without the whip. Of course their perception might be wrong. I can think of other examples of that 
So i think its established that the overwhelming majority of those involved in racing or who follow racing would like to go back to the old whip guidelines.
The bha have sadly given oxygen to minority animal rights groups and some media types courting public opinion.
Lets be sensible,go back to the old guidelines and get on with enjoying racing.
The bha have sadly given oxygen to minority animal rights groups and some media types courting public opinion.
Lets be sensible,go back to the old guidelines and get on with enjoying racing.
Gerry and Please if the whips are banned or these new rules are not modified drastically prize money will get even worse and owners will go to France and Ireland where prize-money is appreciably better. It is already happening now anyway. I presume ye realise this but ye obviously dont care. Please I had already reckoned you were from the old school where everyone should do what they are told. Now you are telling the jockeys to keep their mouths shut. You seem to forget they are self-employed adults.
Arklearkle, i dont see the link between whipping and prize money but happy to hear about it. Like I said, i enjoy the whip as an entertaining aspect of the sport but I just dont see how its going to be defended.
Accept your point that it sounds like i think everyone should behave and do what theyre told but thats not what im trying to advocate. Imo the jockeys need to make a proposal and back it up. In fact they should have done this ages ago when they knew a review was going on. What they have done instead is be coerced into endorsing the original joke rules, then they had their say and said scrap the final furlong thing and leave our money alone (which the BHA agreed to), and now theyre moaning again because they keep getting suspended. Its not winning them any points. Its an idiots guide to getting what they want imo.
Accept your point that it sounds like i think everyone should behave and do what theyre told but thats not what im trying to advocate. Imo the jockeys need to make a proposal and back it up. In fact they should have done this ages ago when they knew a review was going on. What they have done instead is be coerced into endorsing the original joke rules, then they had their say and said scrap the final furlong thing and leave our money alone (which the BHA agreed to), and now theyre moaning again because they keep getting suspended. Its not winning them any points. Its an idiots guide to getting what they want imo.
Arkle
Presumably you are suggesting that less money will be wagered (impacting the levy) as punters will feel less confident about the outcome? I don't buy this argument at all, not least because the BHA's failure to do anything much about non-triers hasn't stopped people betting has it....
Presumably you are suggesting that less money will be wagered (impacting the levy) as punters will feel less confident about the outcome? I don't buy this argument at all, not least because the BHA's failure to do anything much about non-triers hasn't stopped people betting has it....
Please there is a very wide variety of jockeys - flat, jumps, experienced, in-experienced, rich, poor, shy, vocal etc. Some are not in a position to/cant speak out and some can. Even AP and Frankie allowed themselves wittingingly or unwittingly to be used at the start of this mess. There are probably only about three days in the year when they could all come together in the one place to say have a meeting. So it is not as simple as you say for them to come up with a single policy especially if it is true that the penalties were sprung upon them in the first place. There is a big connection between whips and prize-money. If the current rules remain or if whips are banned betting/interest in the sport will decrease and the sponsors will disappear and that will be the end of it and there will be no way back. Unfortunately that is a fact.
Gerry I reckon the non-trier problem has reduced the amount of betting and is a massive problem and the one that the authorities both in UK and Ireland should be tackling and it is the biggest problem facing racing. As one who loves the sport I cringe when I see some of the non-triers - many blatant and nothing happens. If the current rules remain the numbers of non-triers will increase big time and they will be less obvious.
Arkle, yes, it's hard for the jockeys to get organised. Thats why theres a PJA. Unfortunately they dont appear to be able to organise for sh1t, which could ultimately be a big problem for pro-whippers and I dont think this fact is lost on the BHA either.
If racing goes hands & heels, then your prediction may well be fact and fans might desert the sport. The question is how will anyone argue this point if hands & heels is proposed? 'We can't go hands & heels because the racing fans want to see horses whipped?'
If racing goes hands & heels, then your prediction may well be fact and fans might desert the sport. The question is how will anyone argue this point if hands & heels is proposed? 'We can't go hands & heels because the racing fans want to see horses whipped?'
There aren`t any pro-whippers. There are some of us who think some horses need to be encouraged at times with an air-cushioned foam stick as has been the way in all equestrian sports for centuries. Except that they used to use real whips and still do in certain disciplines/jurisdictions.
Salmon spray, I havent really got anything against that point of view, but my point is still how that point can be pressed if the BHA propose hands & heels as a way out of the current mess.
Horses CAN still race without being encouraged with an air-cushioned foam stick. If nobody comes up with a set of rules with a balance between 'use a whip to win, but dont over-do it' then what is the argument to keep it?
Horses CAN still race without being encouraged with an air-cushioned foam stick. If nobody comes up with a set of rules with a balance between 'use a whip to win, but dont over-do it' then what is the argument to keep it?
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539