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18 Oct 11
21:25
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05 Jan 10
A jockey whipped me 'as hard as I'd hit a horse' and it didn't hurt
Racing insiders claim their foam-cushioned whip is designed to produce noise, not pain. Our reporter put it to the test
Greg Wood at Lingfield
guardian.co.uk,
A jockey's whip is not widely considered to be a wonder of modern technology to match the iPod or the mobile phone but perhaps it should be. "It's your job to educate people," Jim Crowley said at Lingfield Park on Tuesday, shortly before hitting me with one.
"The message needs to be got across. This has been blown up out of all proportion. Whips don't hurt horses."
It is a line that has been heard many times in the debate over the use of the whip, not least during the current controversy over the British Horseracing Authority's strict new regulations on its use. It is also an argument that many people, perhaps, still find a little difficult to believe. If it doesn't hurt, they say, why use it at all?
But Crowley is right. He hit me three times in quick succession on the palm of the hand yesterday afternoon, the third time "as hard as I'd ever hit a horse" and, thanks to the design of his lightweight, foam-cushioned whip, I scarcely felt a thing.
It has not always been like this. A decade or so ago a fairly gentle swish from a heavy, old-fashioned whip with a loop of leather at its tip would have produced a smack with a real sting. The modern equivalent, though, is all about noise rather than impact.
"A horse wouldn't feel it the same as a human," Crowley said. "They have a tough hide and it's covered with hair. This whip doesn't hurt a human, so it can't hurt a horse and these sticks have been tested and tested to show that they don't hurt the horse.
"There's no way a jockey would want to hurt a horse. The sticks nowadays are fantastic and designed to startle the horse with a loud bang. We use them to create that sound, which is what people don't realise, and that's the problem."
The lack of any pain from Crowley's strikes is so impressive that it is tempting to wonder whether jockeys should be encouraged to spread the message by hitting racegoers too. Better still, they could walk down Oxford Street hitting passers-by and, when they find that itdoesn't hurt, tell them to tell their friends.
"The palm of your hand is one of the most sensitive parts of your body," Crowley said. "You wouldn't want to have a tattoo there but, when you're hit with one of these whips, you hardly feel it.
"A friend of mine who was a soldier wanted to have a look at one of these. He wasn't involved in racing at all and his whole perception changed in one second by looking at one of these new whips and realising that they're padded and they don't hurt.
"The sticks are getting better and better all the time. They're all tested and they've all got serial numbers in. To be honest, the only problem I have with these sticks is that on a windy day, the wind catches them because they're so light."
Three strokes from a whip on the palm of the hand is hardly a controlled scientific experiment. For one thing it could be argued that Crowley, one of the most easy-going members of the weighing room, is simply too pleasant to launch a proper, full-blooded assault on anyone, even a journalist.
Ryan Moore or Kieren Fallon, by contrast, might apply themselves to the task with real venom. Having felt the best that Crowley could do, though, I would be happy to let them try.
"Hopefully the BHA will come around," Crowley said of the hasty review of the new rules that is due to conclude by the end of this week. "The jockeys just want what's right. The whole situation has been blown out of proportion but what the jockeys have put forward the BHA can hopefully bring into force."
Racing insiders claim their foam-cushioned whip is designed to produce noise, not pain. Our reporter put it to the test
Greg Wood at Lingfield
guardian.co.uk,
A jockey's whip is not widely considered to be a wonder of modern technology to match the iPod or the mobile phone but perhaps it should be. "It's your job to educate people," Jim Crowley said at Lingfield Park on Tuesday, shortly before hitting me with one.
"The message needs to be got across. This has been blown up out of all proportion. Whips don't hurt horses."
It is a line that has been heard many times in the debate over the use of the whip, not least during the current controversy over the British Horseracing Authority's strict new regulations on its use. It is also an argument that many people, perhaps, still find a little difficult to believe. If it doesn't hurt, they say, why use it at all?
But Crowley is right. He hit me three times in quick succession on the palm of the hand yesterday afternoon, the third time "as hard as I'd ever hit a horse" and, thanks to the design of his lightweight, foam-cushioned whip, I scarcely felt a thing.
It has not always been like this. A decade or so ago a fairly gentle swish from a heavy, old-fashioned whip with a loop of leather at its tip would have produced a smack with a real sting. The modern equivalent, though, is all about noise rather than impact.
"A horse wouldn't feel it the same as a human," Crowley said. "They have a tough hide and it's covered with hair. This whip doesn't hurt a human, so it can't hurt a horse and these sticks have been tested and tested to show that they don't hurt the horse.
"There's no way a jockey would want to hurt a horse. The sticks nowadays are fantastic and designed to startle the horse with a loud bang. We use them to create that sound, which is what people don't realise, and that's the problem."
The lack of any pain from Crowley's strikes is so impressive that it is tempting to wonder whether jockeys should be encouraged to spread the message by hitting racegoers too. Better still, they could walk down Oxford Street hitting passers-by and, when they find that itdoesn't hurt, tell them to tell their friends.
"The palm of your hand is one of the most sensitive parts of your body," Crowley said. "You wouldn't want to have a tattoo there but, when you're hit with one of these whips, you hardly feel it.
"A friend of mine who was a soldier wanted to have a look at one of these. He wasn't involved in racing at all and his whole perception changed in one second by looking at one of these new whips and realising that they're padded and they don't hurt.
"The sticks are getting better and better all the time. They're all tested and they've all got serial numbers in. To be honest, the only problem I have with these sticks is that on a windy day, the wind catches them because they're so light."
Three strokes from a whip on the palm of the hand is hardly a controlled scientific experiment. For one thing it could be argued that Crowley, one of the most easy-going members of the weighing room, is simply too pleasant to launch a proper, full-blooded assault on anyone, even a journalist.
Ryan Moore or Kieren Fallon, by contrast, might apply themselves to the task with real venom. Having felt the best that Crowley could do, though, I would be happy to let them try.
"Hopefully the BHA will come around," Crowley said of the hasty review of the new rules that is due to conclude by the end of this week. "The jockeys just want what's right. The whole situation has been blown out of proportion but what the jockeys have put forward the BHA can hopefully bring into force."
Show More
PJA wants financial penalty rule scrapped
BY PAUL EACOTT racingpost.com
THE Professional Jockeys' Association on Wednesday evening released their own proposals for the reform of whip use that would see the financial penalties jockeys have been hit with removed.
PJA chief executive Kevin Darley - along with riders Richard Hughes, Ryan Moore, Frankie Dettori and Tony McCoy, plus trainer John Gosden - met with the BHA on Monday to put forward their own ideas for bringing in a new penalty system for jockeys who break the rules.
The BHA have said they will publish the findings of their review by Friday at the latest, with thePJA making the decision to go public with their proposal two days before.
Total strikes of the whip should remain at seven in Flat races say the jockeys, but the final furlong five-strike rule should be removed. Eight strikes with thewhip would result in a two-day ban, nine four days, ten strikes a ten-day ban and two days for each additional strike.
In determining the number of strikes, the jockeys say stewards must disregard any strikes on the shoulder when the hands remain on the reins and, crucially, any correctional strikes.
The penalties in jump races would be as per Flat races but the five-strike after the last rule would remain under the jockeys' proposal.
The biggest difference between the PJA's proposal and the rules introduced last week by the BHA is that there would be no forfeit of prize-money.
The PJA's statement said: "The PJA believes that its proposals are a responsible response to concerns expressed about the use of the whip. They largely follow the BHA position on the actual restrictions of use of the whip, but amend the related penalty structure. The PJA proposals represent a material increase in the penalties imposed before the latest changes, and are a significant deterrent."
Among other proposals put forward by the PJA are the reintroduction of a rule that would allow minor suspension to be deferred if it falls on the day of a Group 1 or Grade 1.
BY PAUL EACOTT racingpost.com
THE Professional Jockeys' Association on Wednesday evening released their own proposals for the reform of whip use that would see the financial penalties jockeys have been hit with removed.
PJA chief executive Kevin Darley - along with riders Richard Hughes, Ryan Moore, Frankie Dettori and Tony McCoy, plus trainer John Gosden - met with the BHA on Monday to put forward their own ideas for bringing in a new penalty system for jockeys who break the rules.
The BHA have said they will publish the findings of their review by Friday at the latest, with thePJA making the decision to go public with their proposal two days before.
Total strikes of the whip should remain at seven in Flat races say the jockeys, but the final furlong five-strike rule should be removed. Eight strikes with thewhip would result in a two-day ban, nine four days, ten strikes a ten-day ban and two days for each additional strike.
In determining the number of strikes, the jockeys say stewards must disregard any strikes on the shoulder when the hands remain on the reins and, crucially, any correctional strikes.
The penalties in jump races would be as per Flat races but the five-strike after the last rule would remain under the jockeys' proposal.
The biggest difference between the PJA's proposal and the rules introduced last week by the BHA is that there would be no forfeit of prize-money.
The PJA's statement said: "The PJA believes that its proposals are a responsible response to concerns expressed about the use of the whip. They largely follow the BHA position on the actual restrictions of use of the whip, but amend the related penalty structure. The PJA proposals represent a material increase in the penalties imposed before the latest changes, and are a significant deterrent."
Among other proposals put forward by the PJA are the reintroduction of a rule that would allow minor suspension to be deferred if it falls on the day of a Group 1 or Grade 1.
It's only a matter of time before we'll see another drop dead after they've responded beyond their limit
Should we ban NH racing? - Dr Gonzo
Whenever horses are used in sport, commerce, or for leisure, some will (unfortunately) die. In road accidents, in a field by themselves, in riding class, running in The Derby, running in The National. SIngling out NH racing is a stupid tactical mistake, and a logical error. Anyone complaining about the sport being cruel presumably should give up meat.
Should we ban NH racing? - Dr Gonzo
Whenever horses are used in sport, commerce, or for leisure, some will (unfortunately) die. In road accidents, in a field by themselves, in riding class, running in The Derby, running in The National. SIngling out NH racing is a stupid tactical mistake, and a logical error. Anyone complaining about the sport being cruel presumably should give up meat.
They should be able to change the result wrt prize money (NOT betting) where they consider extra strokes affected the result.
The PJA's STATEMENT
JOCKEYS CLARIFY THEIR POSITION OVER WHIP RULES
THE Professional Jockeys Association today called for progress to be made
urgently in amending the new whip rules.
There are concerns within horse racing that many Jockeys will
independently decide not to take part in some racing fixtures next week in
protest at the new rules.
PJA Chief Executive Kevin Darley said: “There is now a process of proper
consultation and discussion involving Jockeys which should have
happened before the original announcement by the British Horseracing
Authority last month. Had we been properly consulted over some of the
important details that relate directly to Jockeys prior to that
announcement we feel that we would not be in the position we are today.
“Jockeys have no issues with the restricted amount of times they can use
the whip under the new rules. The careers of Jockeys are short by
definition and the implications of financial penalties and long suspensions
are savagely disproportionate.”
Senior Jockeys Frankie Dettori and A P McCoy, who were quoted in the
BHA news announcement last month, said they were asked to show their
support by the BHA in the best interests of the sport. They have now
acknowledged that they wouldn’t have agreed to the quotes had they and
the PJA been given the time to consider the full implications and practical
consequences of the new rules and penalties.
The two Jockeys said: “In hindsight we would like to have given more
thought and consideration to the new rules before commenting. We didn’t
give them properly informed approval and we really do wish the BHA
would stop saying that we did.”
ENDS
For further information, please contact:
Kevin Darley, Chief Executive, at the Professional Jockeys Association, on
07974 172675
19 October 2011
JOCKEYS CLARIFY THEIR POSITION OVER WHIP RULES
THE Professional Jockeys Association today called for progress to be made
urgently in amending the new whip rules.
There are concerns within horse racing that many Jockeys will
independently decide not to take part in some racing fixtures next week in
protest at the new rules.
PJA Chief Executive Kevin Darley said: “There is now a process of proper
consultation and discussion involving Jockeys which should have
happened before the original announcement by the British Horseracing
Authority last month. Had we been properly consulted over some of the
important details that relate directly to Jockeys prior to that
announcement we feel that we would not be in the position we are today.
“Jockeys have no issues with the restricted amount of times they can use
the whip under the new rules. The careers of Jockeys are short by
definition and the implications of financial penalties and long suspensions
are savagely disproportionate.”
Senior Jockeys Frankie Dettori and A P McCoy, who were quoted in the
BHA news announcement last month, said they were asked to show their
support by the BHA in the best interests of the sport. They have now
acknowledged that they wouldn’t have agreed to the quotes had they and
the PJA been given the time to consider the full implications and practical
consequences of the new rules and penalties.
The two Jockeys said: “In hindsight we would like to have given more
thought and consideration to the new rules before commenting. We didn’t
give them properly informed approval and we really do wish the BHA
would stop saying that we did.”
ENDS
For further information, please contact:
Kevin Darley, Chief Executive, at the Professional Jockeys Association, on
07974 172675
19 October 2011
jeez......does either "side" in this come out with any credibility intact.
so darley is saying hughes stance about not being able to ride for owners and punters , is a load of rollocks
Read the PJA's proposed changes to the whip rules below...
The PJA believes that its proposals are a responsible response to concerns expressed about use of the whip. They largely follow the BHA position on the actual restrictions for use of the whip, but amend the related penalty structure. The PJA proposals represent a material increase in the penalties imposed before the latest changes, and are a significant deterrent.
The proposals are confined to penalties for excessive frequency as the penalties for frequency are the issue that must most urgently be addressed.
Flat
Total hits permitted in a flat race 7. Allowed at any time in the race and remove the restriction of 5 hits in the last furlong.
Excessive Frequency
• 7 - hits in total allowed at any time in the race
• 8 - 1 hit over, 2 days suspension*
• 9 - 2 hits over, 4 days suspension*
• 10 - 3 hits over, 10 days suspension*
Thereafter the level of penalty to be increased by 2 days for each additional hit.
*In determining the number of hits the Stewards must disregard any hits down the shoulder with the whip hand still on the reins, and any hit that might be used for correction or safety.
Illustrations of safety and correction: If a horse swerves when leaving the stalls or continues to veer of a straight line. If a horse is hanging of a straight line potentially causing interference to any other runner in other race. If a horse ducks or shy's through any unforeseen circumstances. This list is not exhaustive.
Jumps
Total hits permitted in a Jump race 8. From the last obstacle 5 hits allowed.
Excessive Frequency
As per the Flat, with the starting point being that 8 hits are allowed
Financial penalties
The penalties should be confined to riding suspensions only, as has historically been the case. There should be no provision for forfeiture of the riding fee and the jockey's percentage of prize money. The penalties proposed are already incredibly severe, and additional financial penalties are unnecessary and disproportionate. They also have a number of unintended consequences on others, including valets, jockeys agents, the PJA, and a number of important group insurance schemes.
Repeat offences within a 12 month period
Penalties for repeat offences should be increased for offences where the penalty for a first offence would be 5 days or more, as follows.
Second whip offence within previous 12 months - having decided the level of penalty for the offence, it should be doubled if it is a second offence
Third whip offence within previous 12 months - having decided the level of penalty for the offence, it should be trebled if it is a third offence. If this would result in a suspension or more than 42 days, the rider must be referred
The proposals also included details on the proposed powers of the Disciplinary panel in cases that are referred
General
Group 1 and Grade 1 exemptions for races in this country and abroad should continue to apply for minor whip offences with penalties of 4 days or less.
The PJA believes that its proposals are a responsible response to concerns expressed about use of the whip. They largely follow the BHA position on the actual restrictions for use of the whip, but amend the related penalty structure. The PJA proposals represent a material increase in the penalties imposed before the latest changes, and are a significant deterrent.
The proposals are confined to penalties for excessive frequency as the penalties for frequency are the issue that must most urgently be addressed.
Flat
Total hits permitted in a flat race 7. Allowed at any time in the race and remove the restriction of 5 hits in the last furlong.
Excessive Frequency
• 7 - hits in total allowed at any time in the race
• 8 - 1 hit over, 2 days suspension*
• 9 - 2 hits over, 4 days suspension*
• 10 - 3 hits over, 10 days suspension*
Thereafter the level of penalty to be increased by 2 days for each additional hit.
*In determining the number of hits the Stewards must disregard any hits down the shoulder with the whip hand still on the reins, and any hit that might be used for correction or safety.
Illustrations of safety and correction: If a horse swerves when leaving the stalls or continues to veer of a straight line. If a horse is hanging of a straight line potentially causing interference to any other runner in other race. If a horse ducks or shy's through any unforeseen circumstances. This list is not exhaustive.
Jumps
Total hits permitted in a Jump race 8. From the last obstacle 5 hits allowed.
Excessive Frequency
As per the Flat, with the starting point being that 8 hits are allowed
Financial penalties
The penalties should be confined to riding suspensions only, as has historically been the case. There should be no provision for forfeiture of the riding fee and the jockey's percentage of prize money. The penalties proposed are already incredibly severe, and additional financial penalties are unnecessary and disproportionate. They also have a number of unintended consequences on others, including valets, jockeys agents, the PJA, and a number of important group insurance schemes.
Repeat offences within a 12 month period
Penalties for repeat offences should be increased for offences where the penalty for a first offence would be 5 days or more, as follows.
Second whip offence within previous 12 months - having decided the level of penalty for the offence, it should be doubled if it is a second offence
Third whip offence within previous 12 months - having decided the level of penalty for the offence, it should be trebled if it is a third offence. If this would result in a suspension or more than 42 days, the rider must be referred
The proposals also included details on the proposed powers of the Disciplinary panel in cases that are referred
General
Group 1 and Grade 1 exemptions for races in this country and abroad should continue to apply for minor whip offences with penalties of 4 days or less.
ruk slaughtering this tonight, yates isn't pulling any punches
There are concerns within horse racing that many Jockeys will
independently decide not to take part in some racing fixtures next week in
protest at the new rules.
independently decide not to take part in some racing fixtures next week in
protest at the new rules.
Good to see them getting stuck into this. The jockeys looking as bad as the BHA now. How can Dettori agree with this rule when he hit Rewilding 24 times 4 months ago. Is it not like me agreeing not to drink drive after I have killed someone?
The one thing we can be sure of is that the 5 in the final furlong rule will go. Well we could be except they`d probably have to give Soumillon his £53k back. If it was all spent on port and cigars on Mon there is a problem.
lots of questions to answer, my end point is when this shambles is over who will be looking at the bha to ensure this scenario isn't allowed to happen again?
Again no account is taken of the value of the race or what a jockey is likely to miss as a result of a ban. They are inviting connections to employ little used jockeys to thrash their gambles home and the jockey and connections will get their ill-gottens while the jockey might miss a couple of 33/1 rides as a result of the ban.
they`d probably have to give Soumillon his £53k back.
In all my years of racing, I have never seen a more despicable act of theft. I hope the tree huggers are still having a good giggle between themselves. Nothing more than a bunch of wee lassies without a clue.
Sadly the lunatics are running Carstairs/Cornhill.
In all my years of racing, I have never seen a more despicable act of theft. I hope the tree huggers are still having a good giggle between themselves. Nothing more than a bunch of wee lassies without a clue.
Sadly the lunatics are running Carstairs/Cornhill.
ryan moore says the pja got the document an hour before the rest of the world!!
how in the name of feck was this ever a consultative approach?
how in the name of feck was this ever a consultative approach?
stewartyb- have they decided what happens to the money yet?
this may seem a stupid question but if a horse cant feel the whip why does a jockey need it?
This is a serious question. Who appoints this Board ? I`ve been rooting around their website. There`s quite a lot of it and I may have missed something but with two exceptions,one of whom is Johnstone,I can`t figure out who put them in place. Anybody know ?
No idea Steamship. I would spend it on slippers and feather dusters for the jockeys myself.
If there's anymore left over, burn the saddles and let all jockeys ride bareback. (unless a horse breaks out with a rash.
If there's anymore left over, burn the saddles and let all jockeys ride bareback. (unless a horse breaks out with a rash.
salmon, you'll probably find your answers in this document but i can't be bothered to read all of it
http:// www.britishhorseracing.com/inside_horseracing/about/BHA_Committees_Terms_of_Reference.pdf
i put a gap in the link to make it post
http:// www.britishhorseracing.com/inside_horseracing/about/BHA_Committees_Terms_of_Reference.pdf
i put a gap in the link to make it post
“Jockeys have no issues with the restricted amount of times they can use the whip under the new rules."
Nope, that's not what Ryan Moore just said.
PJA telling porkies
Nope, that's not what Ryan Moore just said.
PJA telling porkies
mightymoyes- I would say yes they can feel it but that does not mean to say it hurts.
Thanks elise but doesn`t solve it. Their sub-committee structure is very complex though. Includes Hobbs,Nicholls,Haggas and Lydia Hislop amongst many others.
He hit me three times in quick succession on the palm of the hand yesterday afternoon, the third time "as hard as I'd ever hit a horse" and, thanks to the design of his lightweight, foam-cushioned whip, I scarcely felt a thing.
"A horse wouldn't feel it the same as a human," Crowley said. "They have a tough hide and it's covered with hair.
if the human reporter can 'scarely feel a thing' the horse wont feel anything. surely this suggest the whips are of no use?
"A horse wouldn't feel it the same as a human," Crowley said. "They have a tough hide and it's covered with hair.
if the human reporter can 'scarely feel a thing' the horse wont feel anything. surely this suggest the whips are of no use?
This new message from McCoy surely suggests we'll not see Hughes back again? They are more worried about their pockets that the hits, so Hughes's argument won't be valid in that case.
BHA, PJA, IJF The whole shebang has become a joke ran by people who don't know their arse from their elbows. Just because you were a Champion Jockey doesn't mean you are a champion delegator..Paul Roy, Paul Struthers and et al should all step down when the Aussie turns up in March. A whole new broom and then start all over again. What is needed at the BHA is people who actually sat on a horse in Epsom and Cheltenham not someone who sat on a donkey at Blackpool.
Sorry until horses start talking there is no proof of anything other than if you don't hit them at all then they obviously don't feel any pain. That is really the only fact. All these human tests substantiate nothing.
Basically a number of people clearly don't care a monkeys how often a horse is hit as it is just a vehicle for them to try and make money. Threads like this are little more than an attempt to justify that attitude.
Basically a number of people clearly don't care a monkeys how often a horse is hit as it is just a vehicle for them to try and make money. Threads like this are little more than an attempt to justify that attitude.
that's the one hope in all of this; the bodies which represent racing will finally be recognised as the utter shambles that we all know they are and the gravy train gets derailed
paul roy, do us a favour and quit
paul roy, do us a favour and quit
Anaglog, what you're suggesting is akin to replacing the judiciary with the Krays on the basis they understand the system better. The last thing we want is insiders policing insiders. Better replacing them with pro-punters so the whole shebang is run for the benefit of those who are the main funders of the sport.
They would have looked even more more of a shambles if the jocks had of gone on strike..
Massive opportunity missed..
Massive opportunity missed..
mightymoyes They are used now for the noise the make (allegedly)
so why do trainers and jocks tell us repeatedly of horses that recoil and go backover from a few whip lashings,are we now to believe they are recoiling from the noise ,
, theres some bollocks written on this forum but this is right up there, i take it mcoy has the noiseiest whip in racing,why dont the weaker jockeys use a louder whip, 
, theres some bollocks written on this forum but this is right up there, i take it mcoy has the noiseiest whip in racing,why dont the weaker jockeys use a louder whip,
And why in a close finish do they bother swishing as surely both horses react to the swish.
explains alot actualy, mcoy must have had the silencer on when riding gmooh on a few occasions last season,and the speakers on when riding the lineman
1st time poster read the feckn article will ya, ya ginnet i didn't rite...right...write it...Greg Wood did It has not always been like this. A decade or so ago a fairly gentle swish from a heavy, old-fashioned whip with a loop of leather at its tip would have produced a smack with a real sting. The modern equivalent, though, is all about noise rather than impact.
Whenever horses are used in sport, commerce, or for leisure, some will (unfortunately) die. In road accidents, in a field by themselves, in riding class, running in The Derby, running in The National. SIngling out NH racing is a stupid tactical mistake, and a logical error. Anyone complaining about the sport being cruel presumably should give up meat
I couldn't agree more. I asked that question of those who are arguing that the whip contributes to equine fatalities, as a starting point to try and judge their logic.
Sadly they don't seem to want to answer it.
I couldn't agree more. I asked that question of those who are arguing that the whip contributes to equine fatalities, as a starting point to try and judge their logic.
Sadly they don't seem to want to answer it.
Darley is just as bad as Roy. Both power driven **** who have do nothing for the organisations they represent. Darley has gone way down in my opinion, seems to be sucking up to the BHA rather than making a real stance. Should grow a pair, I'd suggest he looks to try and acquire them from a suffragette ffs
Sadly they don't seem to want to answer it.
Even the Gestapo couldn't get the truth out of the ignorant...
Even the Gestapo couldn't get the truth out of the ignorant...
Darley has gone way down in my opinion
He was never 'up' in my mine.....
He was never 'up' in my mine.....
Moore calls for a return to the old whip rules
By Stuart Riley racingpost.com
THREE-TIME champion jockey Ryan Moore became the latest jockey to speak out against the new whip rules on Wednesday evening, stating his discontent with the whole situation and calling for a return to the old rules.
Contradicting a statement released earlier in the day by PJA chief executive Kevin Darley, stating that the jockeys were in favour of reducing the number of strikes permitted under the old rules, Moore called the limit of seven "too low".
"In my view these new whip rules won't work," Moore said. "Everyone came out and said it was for the good of the sport without really thinking what it meant before everything got out of control.
"It is ruining the sport, Kevin [Darley] has been forced into finding a compromise. The fact is seven [strikes] is too low, but we couldn't go in and say we need to hit horses more because that doesn't look good, and that's supposed to be what this is allabout.
"The jockeys asked for clarity, but I'm not happy with the number [seven], it's just too low. How can seven be fine, but eight is too much, it doesn't make sense. You can't put a number on what is abuse, you could hit a horse once and it could be abuse and you could hit a horse 20 times and it wouldn't be.
"No-one wants to see horses abused and if a young lad hits a horse unnecessarily, the senior guys will pull him aside and set him straight. We all love horses and would never abuse them."
On the need for the whip in a race, Moore, who was speaking on Racing UK, added: "Once a horse comes under pressure, you need to keep them up to it or they relax, there's no pain, but it is just getting them to respond and concentrate.
"It makes racing less competitive, you have to ride every horse the same way, some it will suit, but many it won't."
On Monday's meeting with the BHA, Moore added: "The BHA gave the impression they were under pressure to make these changes; they said they had two mailbags full of complaints."
Moore, who described the situation as "boring and sad", added: "They [the changes] are not in the long-term interest of the sport. Hopefully we can see sense and get back to the way things were. I think the old rules were fine and if they want to go back to them but bring in stronger penalties, perhaps that is the way."
By Stuart Riley racingpost.com
THREE-TIME champion jockey Ryan Moore became the latest jockey to speak out against the new whip rules on Wednesday evening, stating his discontent with the whole situation and calling for a return to the old rules.
Contradicting a statement released earlier in the day by PJA chief executive Kevin Darley, stating that the jockeys were in favour of reducing the number of strikes permitted under the old rules, Moore called the limit of seven "too low".
"In my view these new whip rules won't work," Moore said. "Everyone came out and said it was for the good of the sport without really thinking what it meant before everything got out of control.
"It is ruining the sport, Kevin [Darley] has been forced into finding a compromise. The fact is seven [strikes] is too low, but we couldn't go in and say we need to hit horses more because that doesn't look good, and that's supposed to be what this is allabout.
"The jockeys asked for clarity, but I'm not happy with the number [seven], it's just too low. How can seven be fine, but eight is too much, it doesn't make sense. You can't put a number on what is abuse, you could hit a horse once and it could be abuse and you could hit a horse 20 times and it wouldn't be.
"No-one wants to see horses abused and if a young lad hits a horse unnecessarily, the senior guys will pull him aside and set him straight. We all love horses and would never abuse them."
On the need for the whip in a race, Moore, who was speaking on Racing UK, added: "Once a horse comes under pressure, you need to keep them up to it or they relax, there's no pain, but it is just getting them to respond and concentrate.
"It makes racing less competitive, you have to ride every horse the same way, some it will suit, but many it won't."
On Monday's meeting with the BHA, Moore added: "The BHA gave the impression they were under pressure to make these changes; they said they had two mailbags full of complaints."
Moore, who described the situation as "boring and sad", added: "They [the changes] are not in the long-term interest of the sport. Hopefully we can see sense and get back to the way things were. I think the old rules were fine and if they want to go back to them but bring in stronger penalties, perhaps that is the way."
Anaglogs Daughter 19 Oct 11 21:03
mightymoyes They are used now for the noise the make (allegedly)
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why cant the jockeys just get fallon to show them how to whistle then and just do away with whips?!
mightymoyes They are used now for the noise the make (allegedly)
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why cant the jockeys just get fallon to show them how to whistle then and just do away with whips?!
it aint like the old days when starkey and piggott would refrain from using the whip by barking and going nee-naw nee-naw, respectively.
I can see that if you are 3 horses of the rail you might not be able to tell where the furlong pole is. Easy to remedy, just use technology as we have all heard " caution vehicle reversing, caution vehicle reversing". We could have "caution entering the final furlong, caution entering the final furlong". Ok at the big meetings we may have to ask the spectators to be quiet so as the jockeys can hear the caution warning. Or failing that the course commentator could say during commentary "final furlong approaching remember only 5 strikes of the whip".I know its hard for Jockey's to try and remember all of this in the heat of the moment, so how about a post it note on the horses mane facing towards the jockey saying " don't hit me more that 7 times". Jockey's to carry mobile phones and the Trainer could send them a text at the 2 furlong pole to remimd him of how many strikes they have left. With R.Hills they could send him a letter, he could read it whilst he is boxed in behind the only other horse in the race.
best guess what BHA new rules will be .........Flat
max of seven strikes throughout race is the aim
If six of seven strikes come in final furlong
two day ban ( otherwise no ban)
eight strikes seven day Ban
nine strikes ten day ban
more than nine strikes loss of riding and winning fees
max of seven strikes throughout race is the aim
If six of seven strikes come in final furlong
two day ban ( otherwise no ban)
eight strikes seven day Ban
nine strikes ten day ban
more than nine strikes loss of riding and winning fees
All this nonsense will lead to is racing will become benter by the day, I for one will not
be betting on horses until the restriction on whipping sre lifted or a total ban on whipping
horses to encourage them to go forward is introduced, this wishy way of doing things must
have the cheats drooling in anticipation of the riches that are about to come their way.
be betting on horses until the restriction on whipping sre lifted or a total ban on whipping
horses to encourage them to go forward is introduced, this wishy way of doing things must
have the cheats drooling in anticipation of the riches that are about to come their way.
oh yes and if seven of the seven strikes occur in the last furlong again an eight day ban ! all a bit of fun as we await the their deliberation!
James Given
1 reason there's been the whip review is the breaking of the old rules in high profile races as predicted by Tom Queally for which some criticised him but can the PJA suggest rule changes that would make it near impossible for those win at all cost moments to happen again?
1 reason there's been the whip review is the breaking of the old rules in high profile races as predicted by Tom Queally for which some criticised him but can the PJA suggest rule changes that would make it near impossible for those win at all cost moments to happen again?
suggest rule changes that would make it near impossible for those win at all cost moments to happen again
Deduct 0.25 lengths for each extra slap and declare a new official result based on that. Do so only after the weigh in so it doesn't ruin betting. Extra penalties for the jockey where the horse has been gambled on to prevent cheating where betting is concerned.
Deduct 0.25 lengths for each extra slap and declare a new official result based on that. Do so only after the weigh in so it doesn't ruin betting. Extra penalties for the jockey where the horse has been gambled on to prevent cheating where betting is concerned.
Went to the article on the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/18/jockeys-whip-didnt-hurt
Oh My God. This is proof positive.
There should not no ban whatsoever. If a bloke can be hurt full on on the hand and not flinch then what is a horse going to feel full of adrenaline on its hind quarters in race mode? It is not cruel. Why have any restrictions at all. Education the public. The modern whip does not harm horses. It is like stroking a dog.
The jockeys should go on strike. Get this over quickly. Get the burkes who came up with this nonsense out and get some common sense back into the system.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/18/jockeys-whip-didnt-hurt
Oh My God. This is proof positive.
There should not no ban whatsoever. If a bloke can be hurt full on on the hand and not flinch then what is a horse going to feel full of adrenaline on its hind quarters in race mode? It is not cruel. Why have any restrictions at all. Education the public. The modern whip does not harm horses. It is like stroking a dog.
The jockeys should go on strike. Get this over quickly. Get the burkes who came up with this nonsense out and get some common sense back into the system.
I'm just being Devils Advocate, but:
1) IF horses don't feel anything with the new whips, why are there any usage restrictions at all?
2) IF its the noise that the horses respond to, surely ALL of the horses in the vacinity are going to react to a whip being used on other horse(s)??
PS When you see horses simply run off a track and through barriers (as happened yesterday), as a non rider you have to respect the views of those that are risking their lives doing the riding.
1) IF horses don't feel anything with the new whips, why are there any usage restrictions at all?
2) IF its the noise that the horses respond to, surely ALL of the horses in the vacinity are going to react to a whip being used on other horse(s)??
PS When you see horses simply run off a track and through barriers (as happened yesterday), as a non rider you have to respect the views of those that are risking their lives doing the riding.
why are there any usage restrictions at all?
There shouldn't be..
But there should be rules in place that deal with the voracity of the usage..
In other words, common sense should have prevailed..
There shouldn't be..
But there should be rules in place that deal with the voracity of the usage..
In other words, common sense should have prevailed..
i was reading an article from australia guinness, in it they describe their whip rules as a way to stop jockey "frenzy"
I don't think quoting anything Australian is going to help this issue, elise..
i don't know, holly valance is always good for diverting attention
Would people be less bothered if instead of whips they used teddybear shaped devices on the end of a pink stick to tap the horses asre teddybears cant hurt anyone 
Yep, i'll give you that one. Fitter than a Bombay money lender..
is this one of your bedroom devices you are offering up?
why are there any usage restrictions at all?
because unfortunately there are a crowd of idiots running the BHA who are pandering to the know nothing crowd of idiots who want racing banned and are simply using the whip as an excuse.
nobody with any sense thinks that these new whips hurt horses and yet the BHA are creating cases of "whip abuse" where there are none solely to supply ammo to these fools.
the whip has been modified so just revert back to the old rules then everyone who cares about racing and racehorses will be happy.
because unfortunately there are a crowd of idiots running the BHA who are pandering to the know nothing crowd of idiots who want racing banned and are simply using the whip as an excuse.
nobody with any sense thinks that these new whips hurt horses and yet the BHA are creating cases of "whip abuse" where there are none solely to supply ammo to these fools.
the whip has been modified so just revert back to the old rules then everyone who cares about racing and racehorses will be happy.
The problem is the BHA will lose face. They spent time and money on the subject and got it so wrong.
What needs to be devised is a way in which the BHA does not lose face.
The alternative is sack the lot.
Who appoints these people?
What needs to be devised is a way in which the BHA does not lose face.
The alternative is sack the lot.
Who appoints these people?
sportinglife.com
Jumps jockey Paddy Brennan rode a treble at Carlisle on Thursday, but added to the growing number of dissenting voices on the whip issue.
The Cheltenham Gold Cup-winning rider even raised the possibility of leaving British racing if the situation is not resolved.
He said: "Will I stay riding in England forever? If you'd asked me that last year I'd have said definitely, but if you ask me now, I don't know.
"When you're riding in a race over three miles on soft ground, you are not thinking of the whip, you are thinking of what's in front of you and who is around you - it's going to be very hard.
"The Eider Chase (over four miles and a furlong at Newcastle) is probably the perfect example - you won't have any finishers.
"The BHA are making jockeys out to be thick, we're not thick.
"We use our brain every day and you don't get to where Tony McCoy is without being a very intelligent man.
"It's wrong what people are doing and to do your best every day anymore isn't what they want," Brennan told Racing UK.
Jumps jockey Paddy Brennan rode a treble at Carlisle on Thursday, but added to the growing number of dissenting voices on the whip issue.
The Cheltenham Gold Cup-winning rider even raised the possibility of leaving British racing if the situation is not resolved.
He said: "Will I stay riding in England forever? If you'd asked me that last year I'd have said definitely, but if you ask me now, I don't know.
"When you're riding in a race over three miles on soft ground, you are not thinking of the whip, you are thinking of what's in front of you and who is around you - it's going to be very hard.
"The Eider Chase (over four miles and a furlong at Newcastle) is probably the perfect example - you won't have any finishers.
"The BHA are making jockeys out to be thick, we're not thick.
"We use our brain every day and you don't get to where Tony McCoy is without being a very intelligent man.
"It's wrong what people are doing and to do your best every day anymore isn't what they want," Brennan told Racing UK.
Trouble is Paddy,a lot of yer fellow jockeys are having trouble counting,and following a clear set of rules laid down for them.
So their are grounds for people thinking you may be thick.
So their are grounds for people thinking you may be thick.
Referring to the OP - if whips don't hurt horses why do horses veer violently away from the whip sometimes and if the idea is to create a whip like noise then surely they could devise a small button like toy that recreates the whip sound. My son has enough of the annoying things for all sorts of sound effects.
Can't quite understand why it has become so ingrained in people thats its ok to beat horses with a whip. If you were walking down the street and saw someone do it to a dog I'm sure you'd be horrified.
Been betting 20+ years and really wouldn't bother me in the slightest if they dropped the whip altogether. Be good for the long term future of the horses and their longevity of their racing life.
Can't quite understand why it has become so ingrained in people thats its ok to beat horses with a whip. If you were walking down the street and saw someone do it to a dog I'm sure you'd be horrified.
Been betting 20+ years and really wouldn't bother me in the slightest if they dropped the whip altogether. Be good for the long term future of the horses and their longevity of their racing life.
Grundy v Bustino would have been a very boring race with the childs toy
New whip rules good for racing says World Horse Welfare group
By Peter Scargill racingpost.com
WORLD HORSE WELFARE chief executive Roly Owers has urged the BHA and the jockeys to give the new whip rules a chance for "the good of racing".
Since the new rules were brought in on October 10 there has been much controversy including calls for a strike among jockeys, Richard Hughes temporarily refusing to ride and ultimately the BHA amending the rules on Friday.
Discontent remains among many riders who feel the penalties for exceeding the number of hits - of seven on the Flat and eight over jumps - are too harsh but Owers believes penalties have to be hard to effect change in the jockeys' behaviour.
"We understand a vast majority of jockeys take the welfare of their horses very seriously and we recognise the whip has an important role to play," he said. "But, and it's a big but, the previous situation was not acceptable.
Jamie Stier: penalties incentivise
"The old penalty system didn't work. There needs to be a behaviour change, not just with jockeys but with trainers and everyone. What wewere calling for is a penalty system that has to be behaviour changing. It is a change and it doesn't come easily but it's for the good of racing."
Owers, speaking on Channel 4's The Morning Line, added that the furore over the whip had been damaging for racing.
He said: "There's huge misunderstanding about the use of the whip with the public and the fact the whip has been dominating headlines for the past two weeks is very damaging.
"Get a system that works - we believe this system can work - it's only been ten days, give it a chance to work."
BHA director of raceday operations Jamie Stier also said that the penalties needed to be strong and that they were there more to incentivise riders than penalise them.
"We need to have behavioural change within our riders to comply with the rules," he said. "People misunderstand often the premise of penalty structures. Penalty structures are not there to penalise jockeys, they are there to incentivise jockeys to ride within the rules."
Stier also defended the BHA's handling of the whip review and the changes that have been implemented less than two weeks after the new rules were put in place.
He said: "We acted quickly, we acted decisively, but we always acted in a measured way. If there are valid concerns the BHA will address them. We acted responsiblyall the way through the process.
Kevin Darley: expects no strike
"Even with the amendments the principles remain the same as were in the rules; that there needed to be changes, there needed to be behavioural changes in the jockeys."
PJA chief executive Kevin Darley reaffirmed his belief that there will be no strike in the coming days, while voicing concern that the penalties "did not fit the crime".
He said: "There won't be a strike this week. That's counterproductive. We've got together as a group. We gottogether with a lot of the senior jockeys - AP [McCoy], Frankie [Dettori], Ryan Moore - and we discussed it, talked about it in a grown-up manner and said ‘what are we going to achieve by striking?'
"The jockeys I took to the BHA on Monday weren't just good; there were the best jockeys in the world. And what we've got to get through is that there needs to be some discretion on the whip. They are up in arms about the penalties. Some of the penalties do not fit the crime."
By Peter Scargill racingpost.com
WORLD HORSE WELFARE chief executive Roly Owers has urged the BHA and the jockeys to give the new whip rules a chance for "the good of racing".
Since the new rules were brought in on October 10 there has been much controversy including calls for a strike among jockeys, Richard Hughes temporarily refusing to ride and ultimately the BHA amending the rules on Friday.
Discontent remains among many riders who feel the penalties for exceeding the number of hits - of seven on the Flat and eight over jumps - are too harsh but Owers believes penalties have to be hard to effect change in the jockeys' behaviour.
"We understand a vast majority of jockeys take the welfare of their horses very seriously and we recognise the whip has an important role to play," he said. "But, and it's a big but, the previous situation was not acceptable.
Jamie Stier: penalties incentivise
"The old penalty system didn't work. There needs to be a behaviour change, not just with jockeys but with trainers and everyone. What wewere calling for is a penalty system that has to be behaviour changing. It is a change and it doesn't come easily but it's for the good of racing."
Owers, speaking on Channel 4's The Morning Line, added that the furore over the whip had been damaging for racing.
He said: "There's huge misunderstanding about the use of the whip with the public and the fact the whip has been dominating headlines for the past two weeks is very damaging.
"Get a system that works - we believe this system can work - it's only been ten days, give it a chance to work."
BHA director of raceday operations Jamie Stier also said that the penalties needed to be strong and that they were there more to incentivise riders than penalise them.
"We need to have behavioural change within our riders to comply with the rules," he said. "People misunderstand often the premise of penalty structures. Penalty structures are not there to penalise jockeys, they are there to incentivise jockeys to ride within the rules."
Stier also defended the BHA's handling of the whip review and the changes that have been implemented less than two weeks after the new rules were put in place.
He said: "We acted quickly, we acted decisively, but we always acted in a measured way. If there are valid concerns the BHA will address them. We acted responsiblyall the way through the process.
Kevin Darley: expects no strike
"Even with the amendments the principles remain the same as were in the rules; that there needed to be changes, there needed to be behavioural changes in the jockeys."
PJA chief executive Kevin Darley reaffirmed his belief that there will be no strike in the coming days, while voicing concern that the penalties "did not fit the crime".
He said: "There won't be a strike this week. That's counterproductive. We've got together as a group. We gottogether with a lot of the senior jockeys - AP [McCoy], Frankie [Dettori], Ryan Moore - and we discussed it, talked about it in a grown-up manner and said ‘what are we going to achieve by striking?'
"The jockeys I took to the BHA on Monday weren't just good; there were the best jockeys in the world. And what we've got to get through is that there needs to be some discretion on the whip. They are up in arms about the penalties. Some of the penalties do not fit the crime."
Rishi Persad
Seems feelings running high at Aintree, wonder what will emerge as the story following Ruby Walsh's ride in 4.40...
Seems feelings running high at Aintree, wonder what will emerge as the story following Ruby Walsh's ride in 4.40...
Ruby allgedly has said he doesn't want to come back to England to Ride.....Richard Hughes when told about what Ruby was suppose to said, said "Ooooh! hark at her thrown her toys out of the pram".
Someone asked: "suggest rule changes that would make it near impossible for those win at all cost moments to happen again"
I replied: Deduct 0.25 lengths for each extra slap and declare a new official result based on that. Do so only after the weigh in so it doesn't ruin betting. Extra penalties for the jockey where the horse has been gambled on to prevent cheating where betting is concerned.
flyingbolt commented: lol @ the fecking eejit's latest brainwave.
If it's so stupid why don't you tell us all why? If your horse was beaten a sh hd in the derby by a horse that had one or two slaps over the seven, do you think you'd still be laughing. You are one t1t and a half "bolty".
I replied: Deduct 0.25 lengths for each extra slap and declare a new official result based on that. Do so only after the weigh in so it doesn't ruin betting. Extra penalties for the jockey where the horse has been gambled on to prevent cheating where betting is concerned.
flyingbolt commented: lol @ the fecking eejit's latest brainwave.
If it's so stupid why don't you tell us all why? If your horse was beaten a sh hd in the derby by a horse that had one or two slaps over the seven, do you think you'd still be laughing. You are one t1t and a half "bolty".
Feck- Don't you see that these new rules are crazy and to a point I agree. If your jockey is penalised then how can the horse keep the race? This is the ridiculous situation that racing is now in, it should be to the discretion of the stewards it is now out of their hands so why have them. Walsh rode a great race in the 440 yet gets ban but we're told that the jocks wanted a limit of strikes. All in all the whole lot of them are making British racing a sick joke.
I'm all for a level playing field that requires no stupid rules Steamship. A total ban.
I am rapidly losing interest in GB racing after nearly 50 years as my name would suggest.
Same here Salmon, The BHA should be like a good ref.
One that does their job well so no one notices them...
One that does their job well so no one notices them...
flyingbolt must want this forum to be for jockeys only,as his stock reply seems to be if you havnt ridden a horse you cant have a view,seem to remember mcoy getting lambasted for a similar view
Peter Scudamore
Thought this whip issue settled downm, worse than ever now .
Ger Lyons to Peter Scudamore
Starts at the top Scu! Your leaders are a disgrace. Not the game we grew up in I'm sorry to say.
Thought this whip issue settled downm, worse than ever now .
Ger Lyons to Peter Scudamore
Starts at the top Scu! Your leaders are a disgrace. Not the game we grew up in I'm sorry to say.
Paul Nicholls
Nice day with 3 winners RUINED by Ruby,s 5 day ban after awesome ride on Eddgardo SolAnd Ruby just told me he cant ride Kauto Stone & The Nightingale @ Down Royal 5th Nov. Beyond a joke
Nice day with 3 winners RUINED by Ruby,s 5 day ban after awesome ride on Eddgardo SolAnd Ruby just told me he cant ride Kauto Stone & The Nightingale @ Down Royal 5th Nov. Beyond a joke
Even if it doesn't hurt them they run faster because they're afraid of it. Why are they afraid of it? Probably because they're hit with the real mccoy at home to instill that fear.
Feck, I've never understood that part of your arguement. How do you know that their hit with the real McCoy at home??
Feck, I've never understood that part of your arguement. How do you know that their hit with the real McCoy at home??
dredvers David Redvers
To make this clear. Any jockey that strikes over the whip now will not ride for Pearl Bloodstock again. This has gone on long enough.
f f s
To make this clear. Any jockey that strikes over the whip now will not ride for Pearl Bloodstock again. This has gone on long enough.
f f s
I'm applying logic stewarty. I've never swished a whip back and forth at the side of a police horse but I suspect it would barely flinch.
You could always try it at the g20 or summat like that and report your findings back to the forum for the sake of accuracy.......eventually
In other words Feck, you have no evidence whatsoever. I'm one who wouldn't take a pop at you Feck without good reason, but you did state to me the other day that your bank balance would be larger if the whip was banned.
You may be 100% correct, but if you are, aren't you happy with what you've got?
Sure, us punters always want more, but only a total ban which you would like to see, would produce the evidence? Something that's not going to happen in our lifetime. (imho)
You may be 100% correct, but if you are, aren't you happy with what you've got?
Sure, us punters always want more, but only a total ban which you would like to see, would produce the evidence? Something that's not going to happen in our lifetime. (imho)
There is no evidence to the contrary either stewarty and it's not about wanting more, it's about reducing cheating.
I'm stuck between a rock and a haed place Feck. But if I thought that some jock gave one more 'love tap' to win me, say 10K, and lost, I'd be fkn fuming. As it stands, we can only go by today's rules. If the whip was banned altogether, It would be an AP and Fallon feast for the punters imho.
Dancing Freddy btn a sh hd during the week by a horse given 2 illegal slaps cost me 16K stewarty. Nothing new. Even before the new rules came in I was fed up being beaten in photos by gambled horses that were thrashed. Only way you can have a level playing field is with no whip.
Feck, I suppose you have to take into account what kind of horse is getting the slap. 2 year olds no doubt object to the whip more than a seasoned 4yo handicapper.
Having said that, what would you think of the idea of every jockey carrying one, but not allowed to actually use it? (unless for steering reasons) ie. let the horse see it, but not feel it.
Again, 16k is a lot of cash Feck.
Having said that, what would you think of the idea of every jockey carrying one, but not allowed to actually use it? (unless for steering reasons) ie. let the horse see it, but not feel it.
Again, 16k is a lot of cash Feck.
If it the sound of the whip that the horse responds to, then they should bring back the 'football' rattle! Apparently, the noise has the desired effect. It was outlawed as an 'artificial aid' in 1974. Surely, the way forward is a nice new carbon fibre noise generator, battery operated fits and doubles as the whip handle.
Any design engineers out there?
Any design engineers out there?
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