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18 Oct 11
19:57
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Date Joined:
22 Jun 04
..... be required to lodge a deposit of say £25,000 per horse with the BHA to ensure that when its racing career is over, the horse has at least some provision for its retirement? (rather than a 3rd class, one-way ticket to a continental slaughterhouse)
The £25,000 would be paid to an equine sanctuary on the horse's retirement from racing, with the sanctuary then responsible for caring for the animal for the rest of its life.
Alternatively, if the owner wanted to make their own provision for the horse's retirement (and an inspector from the BHA confirmed that the provision was adequate) the deposit would be returned to the owner once they had proven, over a period of time, that they were indeed caring properly for the animal (2 years would be a sufficient time period imo).
I realise that there could be some logistical problems in implementing such a scheme, but since most people on the forum seem to violently agree that the welfare of the horse is paramount, then surely it's worth considering?
The £25,000 would be paid to an equine sanctuary on the horse's retirement from racing, with the sanctuary then responsible for caring for the animal for the rest of its life.
Alternatively, if the owner wanted to make their own provision for the horse's retirement (and an inspector from the BHA confirmed that the provision was adequate) the deposit would be returned to the owner once they had proven, over a period of time, that they were indeed caring properly for the animal (2 years would be a sufficient time period imo).
I realise that there could be some logistical problems in implementing such a scheme, but since most people on the forum seem to violently agree that the welfare of the horse is paramount, then surely it's worth considering?
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Oh dear.The price for a horse to end up on a Belgium dinner table is £600.Gerry, as others have stated, you are a fool and you surely must be pissed....
Are you saying that some racehorse owners don't care for their horses as much as they tell us they do homefortea? (tbh - you're so thick I have trouble deciphering just about everything you post)
In any case, what I'm propsosing in not something that would be optional; I'd want the BHA to make it a rule of ownership in GB.
In any case, what I'm propsosing in not something that would be optional; I'd want the BHA to make it a rule of ownership in GB.
A lot of trainers have contacts and will rehouse ex racehorses. One horse I had a share in does dressage now, another is the hack of a family member of the trainer, another was kept as a pet by a relative of one of the syndicate owners.
I think you would find that a lot of potential owners would be put off by such demands. Also what happens to the 25k if the horse is sold and goes into training with someone else?
I think you would find that a lot of potential owners would be put off by such demands. Also what happens to the 25k if the horse is sold and goes into training with someone else?
Oh dear..So you are telling me that someone who has bought a foal at auction for £1000 has to pay a further £25,000 to provide it with an equine sanctuary in later life.That, maybe despite the fact that it may have changed hands (something that you will be familiar with) a number of times in it's life.I could insult you but I am afraid you are not worth it.
Barton Bank
Thanks for a coherent reply! I know that there are some good owners who really do care about the horse's welfare once its racing career is over (I think Outpost, a regular contributor to the forum, is one such owner) but there are plenty who couldn't care less too.
All I'm proposing is something that forces owners to think up front about the animal's post racing welfare. If it makes owners think twice about even entering the game then so be it; far better that than have a horse exported for meat once its racing days are over.
In terms of selling a horse to an new owner / trainer, the new owner has to stump up the deposit and the original owner would get his / her deposit returned.
Thanks for a coherent reply! I know that there are some good owners who really do care about the horse's welfare once its racing career is over (I think Outpost, a regular contributor to the forum, is one such owner) but there are plenty who couldn't care less too.
All I'm proposing is something that forces owners to think up front about the animal's post racing welfare. If it makes owners think twice about even entering the game then so be it; far better that than have a horse exported for meat once its racing days are over.
In terms of selling a horse to an new owner / trainer, the new owner has to stump up the deposit and the original owner would get his / her deposit returned.
the easy answer is no. Does anyone who buys a dog or cat have to do that.
elise - not so much fishing as calling the bluff of some of those who claim to "love them osses"
So every time a horse is sold the vendor passes the £25,000 liability on to the new owner.Priceless...Not many horses sold then !! Where do these people come from !!
councillor - do you know of anyone's cat or dog that gets exported for meat once it's served the purpose...
homefortea - how would you go about ensuring that racehorses receive a minimum level of care once their racing careers are over? Please astound us with your insight and creative thinking....
councillor - they export cats and dogs from Thailand? To where?
What is the difference between a horse and a cow then. In different countries throughout the world both are classed as meat for human consumption. There is nothing wrong with disposing of carcases in this way. Do you eat meat????? Welll in France for instance Cheval is as popular as beef. Im not saying its right just stating a fact
councillor
I know all that. What I struggle with is that there so many people on here (many of whom are owners) who profess their eternal love for their horses and bang on about the "5 star lifestyles" they all receive etc. Yet it strikes me that the reality is that to many owners, horses are simply a commodity to be sold (quite probably for meat) once the horse's racing career is over.
My scheme (or something similar) would put the extent to which an owner really loves his / her horse to the test imo.
I know all that. What I struggle with is that there so many people on here (many of whom are owners) who profess their eternal love for their horses and bang on about the "5 star lifestyles" they all receive etc. Yet it strikes me that the reality is that to many owners, horses are simply a commodity to be sold (quite probably for meat) once the horse's racing career is over.
My scheme (or something similar) would put the extent to which an owner really loves his / her horse to the test imo.
elise - I don't (see my 20:23 post). The way I look at it is that caring owners would buy into such a scheme; the others wouldn't and therefore couldn't own and race horses in GB.
Should humans have to do the same? If you want to have a kid put money up front for when it retires 70 years later?
frog2 - not necessary in the UK thanks to the welfare system.
Gerry I understand your sentiment. However, in life there will always be those who take the responsibility of owning a horse seriously and those who will not. Its the same with cats and dogs all you are dealing with is people from a different social spectrum but the problem is the same. All the people I know who own horses look after them, myself included.There are place that will retrain horses for use after their racing days have finsihed and it would a great gesture if everyone gave a donation in support of the work they do. We all take something from the sport so we should also put something back.
Gerry Gallbladder 18 Oct 11 20:28
homefortea - how would you go about ensuring that racehorses receive a minimum level of care once their racing careers are over? Please astound us with your insight and creative thinking....
C'mon homefortea - let's see what you've got.
homefortea - how would you go about ensuring that racehorses receive a minimum level of care once their racing careers are over? Please astound us with your insight and creative thinking....
C'mon homefortea - let's see what you've got.
The Gallbladder is an arse.Horses such as other animals should be treated with the utmost respect.I have just returned from feeding my own.
Gerry - Your philanphopic 'Alice in Wonderland' idea will 'kill' the British racehorse population
- and consequently, the Breeding industry, by about 90% ... overnight.
It will put Tens of thousands of Training, and Stud, stable hands, and other staff onto the scrapheap that is the Dole Queue.
Who on earth is going to put up a £25,000 retirement fund for the 'dogs' that regularly race around Wolverhampton and Southwell?
The industry is vastly over-bred as it is ...
What do you think happens to all those Yearlings who fail to sell, at the Sales? -
and the near 50% of 2-yr-olds who never, ever, make it to the racecourse ?
Who puts up the £25,000 for them?
- and consequently, the Breeding industry, by about 90% ... overnight.
It will put Tens of thousands of Training, and Stud, stable hands, and other staff onto the scrapheap that is the Dole Queue.
Who on earth is going to put up a £25,000 retirement fund for the 'dogs' that regularly race around Wolverhampton and Southwell?
The industry is vastly over-bred as it is ...
What do you think happens to all those Yearlings who fail to sell, at the Sales? -
and the near 50% of 2-yr-olds who never, ever, make it to the racecourse ?
Who puts up the £25,000 for them?
councillor
Nice one - it's good to hear that there are some who consider racehorse ownership over the whole lifecycle.
I take on board what you say about some owner taking responsibility and others who do not. But with British horse racing, the BHA are in a position to ensure that all owners take responsibility. Quite simply if owners won't stump up the welfare deposit, they won't be allowed to run their horses in GB.
Nice one - it's good to hear that there are some who consider racehorse ownership over the whole lifecycle.
I take on board what you say about some owner taking responsibility and others who do not. But with British horse racing, the BHA are in a position to ensure that all owners take responsibility. Quite simply if owners won't stump up the welfare deposit, they won't be allowed to run their horses in GB.
Go on Gerry keep digging and keep on digging that hole..
geryy its too radical. the impact would be so negative. But I know you mean well.
onlooker
I agree that there are far too many thoroughbreds. Do you not think that my idea would help to resolve this issue?
Also I realise that such a scheme could not be introduced overnight but if the introduction were planned for say 2/3 years hence, it would give all affected parties an opportunity to plan for the new landscape.
I agree that there are far too many thoroughbreds. Do you not think that my idea would help to resolve this issue?
Also I realise that such a scheme could not be introduced overnight but if the introduction were planned for say 2/3 years hence, it would give all affected parties an opportunity to plan for the new landscape.
I thought that as I typed, Gerry -
But continued typing as ... Your idea would not just, "resolve it," ...
It would NUKE it.
But continued typing as ... Your idea would not just, "resolve it," ...
It would NUKE it.
onlooker
So what's the answer then? Surely it cannot be to continue to allow hundreds / thousands of ex-racehorses to be exported for meat?
Maybe the welfare deposit I've suggested (£25k) is too high, although I think you could easily argue that it's nowhere near enough to provide care for a horse for the remainder of its life after racing (which could easily be another 20+ years). Maybe the answer is to start with a lower welfare deposit (say £10k) as that would at least ensure some kind of retirement post racing although not necessarily a safe, happy and long one.
So what's the answer then? Surely it cannot be to continue to allow hundreds / thousands of ex-racehorses to be exported for meat?
Maybe the welfare deposit I've suggested (£25k) is too high, although I think you could easily argue that it's nowhere near enough to provide care for a horse for the remainder of its life after racing (which could easily be another 20+ years). Maybe the answer is to start with a lower welfare deposit (say £10k) as that would at least ensure some kind of retirement post racing although not necessarily a safe, happy and long one.
homefortea - but you are the one talking to himself old son.....
Yeah and you would be the first to moan if ownership dropped off and fewer horses means fewer races,if the lower bracket of owners had to stump up an extra £25,000 they wouldnt be able to afford to come into the game
sandysboy
What the hell are you talking about? I most definitely would not be moaning if there were fewer horses and race meetings. Take a read some of my previous posts on other threads....
Also, don't you wonder how an owner might be able to look after their horse (post racing career) if they can't afford the welfare deposit? FFS that's my point; if they either cannot or will not commit to caring for the horse for its whole life they shouldn't be allowed to own a racehorse in the first place.
What the hell are you talking about? I most definitely would not be moaning if there were fewer horses and race meetings. Take a read some of my previous posts on other threads....
Also, don't you wonder how an owner might be able to look after their horse (post racing career) if they can't afford the welfare deposit? FFS that's my point; if they either cannot or will not commit to caring for the horse for its whole life they shouldn't be allowed to own a racehorse in the first place.
fawwon
I couldn't quite make out what was happening on the image. Was it someone pi$$ing into the ocean?!
If yes, I know what you mean but surely continuing to allow racehorses to be exported for meat is not the answer either....
I couldn't quite make out what was happening on the image. Was it someone pi$$ing into the ocean?!
If yes, I know what you mean but surely continuing to allow racehorses to be exported for meat is not the answer either....
The Trainer saw to the welfare of my horse,he was GIVEN to a guy who takes in retired racehorses and retrains them for riding schools
Who wants to read any of your previous threads ? You are the horses arse.Imagine paying £25k before the horse is bought.
Brilliant Sandsyboy. I couldn't imagine that under the scheme I've suggested that a BHA inspector would give anything other than a thumbs up for the way you're caring for your horse in its retirement. Under my scheme therefore, you'd get your deposit back in full two years after your horse had retired from racing.
homefortea 18 Oct 11 21:25
Who wants to read any of your previous threads ?
Not a trace of irony either.
Who wants to read any of your previous threads ?
Not a trace of irony either.
Gerry you really are the horses arse.I am off now because I really cannot take in any more of your bullshit.I will let others who are far more qualified than myself to have a "pop" at you.£25000 deposit when you buy a horse..I ask you !
Nice sentiment Jerry but completely unrealistic,£25 k per head for registered horses or for all produced? How many acres and sanctuaries do you propose for the annual "wastage"?
Not knocking the sentiment for one minute but totally unrealistic.
Better to start slaughtering in situ and banning live transportation imo.
Not knocking the sentiment for one minute but totally unrealistic.
Better to start slaughtering in situ and banning live transportation imo.
homefortea 18 Oct 11 21:35
Gerry you really are the horses arse.I am off now because I really cannot take in any more of your bullshit.I will let others who are far more qualified than myself to have a "pop" at you.£25000 deposit when you buy a horse..I ask you !
Just who do you think this excludes?
elise - why do you think I'm fishing? Do you think it's too radical, or impossible to implement something like this?
Gerry you really are the horses arse.I am off now because I really cannot take in any more of your bullshit.I will let others who are far more qualified than myself to have a "pop" at you.£25000 deposit when you buy a horse..I ask you !
Just who do you think this excludes?
elise - why do you think I'm fishing? Do you think it's too radical, or impossible to implement something like this?
Glentoby
Cheers. Maybe the £25k welfare deposit is too high but why not aim for something more modest to start with - say £10k? By agreeing to stump up a not inconsiderable chunk of cash, and having it tied up for a period, an owner would at least be demonstrating that they have considered, and are taking the horse's welfare seriously.
Btw I agree, although far from ideal, slaughtering in-situ would be preferable to the live transportation.
Cheers. Maybe the £25k welfare deposit is too high but why not aim for something more modest to start with - say £10k? By agreeing to stump up a not inconsiderable chunk of cash, and having it tied up for a period, an owner would at least be demonstrating that they have considered, and are taking the horse's welfare seriously.
Btw I agree, although far from ideal, slaughtering in-situ would be preferable to the live transportation.
radical, no actually, i think it's possible to introduce a scheme
i'd see a small tax on all levels of breeding, sales, ownership in this country going to help support a number of equine retirement centres, retraining or rehoming operations as opposed to the charity based support currently
but then i might be fishing too
i'd see a small tax on all levels of breeding, sales, ownership in this country going to help support a number of equine retirement centres, retraining or rehoming operations as opposed to the charity based support currently
but then i might be fishing too
Gallbladder...Do you think that a buyer of a horse at auction that costs over the £600 (dining quality) will pay an extra £25000 to ensure it's welfare ? What you propose is to ensure 95% of all horses bred on these fair Islands will end up on the end of a knife and fork.Now I really do have something better to do than engage with a half-wit
I realise that there could be some logistical problems in implementing such a scheme, but since most people on the forum seem to violently agree that the welfare of the horse is paramount, then surely it's worth considering?
No its not worth considering even for a millisecond in fact its stark staring mad
HTH
No its not worth considering even for a millisecond in fact its stark staring mad
HTH
elise - I like your 'pay as you own' idea (and hope you're not fishing). Shunts the admin / bureaucracy to the revenue and collections system as well (which could be good or bad). Have you submitted your thoughts to the RFC mob?
i saw one of theose japanese super trawlers once, they can stay at sea for weeks, huge things
Gerry the bottom line is that few owners will even insure a horse that has little future value unless they have paid in excess of £20k for the purchase.
Sad but realistic economics can be found in vehicle insurance stats,why pay £1k pa for a car worth £400?
Only two horses I can think of in the public psyche that were guaranteed a future outside of racing were Dessie and Red Rum.The flat game is different for the top end,the bottom end however end up over jumps and then?
I cannot see a problem where horses are slaughtered for meat,UK or anywhere but welfare issues are paramount.The fact is though the biggest wastage comes from the wealthiest owners and studs.
The thoroughbred is a commercial product and that will never change,btw I forgot about the other dashing grey who was nursed back from almost certain death.
Too many to save and the kindest way is to give the failures a quick dispatch and eat them where possible,sad but practical.
Sad but realistic economics can be found in vehicle insurance stats,why pay £1k pa for a car worth £400?
Only two horses I can think of in the public psyche that were guaranteed a future outside of racing were Dessie and Red Rum.The flat game is different for the top end,the bottom end however end up over jumps and then?
I cannot see a problem where horses are slaughtered for meat,UK or anywhere but welfare issues are paramount.The fact is though the biggest wastage comes from the wealthiest owners and studs.
The thoroughbred is a commercial product and that will never change,btw I forgot about the other dashing grey who was nursed back from almost certain death.
Too many to save and the kindest way is to give the failures a quick dispatch and eat them where possible,sad but practical.
homefortea - you haven't considered that the resultant drop in demand for racehorses would mean that the current level of breeding would also be scaled down? Breeders simply won't breed horses that no one wannts to buy (they certainly won't continue breeding so that they can sell animals for £600 apiece to a Belgian meat trader)
ranader - thanks. I notice you didn't put forward an alternative. Do you not have any ideas or should I stick you in the 'couldn't give a **** about horse welfare' camp?
ranader - thanks. I notice you didn't put forward an alternative. Do you not have any ideas or should I stick you in the 'couldn't give a **** about horse welfare' camp?
Glantoby
Monets Garden - very good news about him.
I understand all the points you're making. What I'm saying (and everyone seems to be in agreement with this bit) is that my scheme, because of the welfare deposit, would deter quite a few from entering the ownership game altogether. Those who do still enter would have stumped up the welfare deposit - they couldn't own a racehorse unles they had.
The net impact of less owners would ultimately be smaller scale breeding programmes, while the net impact of the welfare deposits would be that horses have some form of retirement (guaranteed if you like) post racing.
Monets Garden - very good news about him.
I understand all the points you're making. What I'm saying (and everyone seems to be in agreement with this bit) is that my scheme, because of the welfare deposit, would deter quite a few from entering the ownership game altogether. Those who do still enter would have stumped up the welfare deposit - they couldn't own a racehorse unles they had.
The net impact of less owners would ultimately be smaller scale breeding programmes, while the net impact of the welfare deposits would be that horses have some form of retirement (guaranteed if you like) post racing.
Cheers for your input everyone and despite what the doubters say, I wasn't fishing! I'm going to give my idea some more thought but don't be surprised if you see it (or something similar) pop up on RFC's programme of new initiatives.
I've had some feckin' insults on here but that.....
Simplified version of a long story gerry.
A tariff of £200 at birth and £20 per month subsequently per foal.At 2yo £200 + £200 if it ever runs with the £20 pm continuing until death.
For every foal registered,all to be used for equine welfare post racing days.More practical,more affordable and non refundable.
Btw I have inherited a leg of a decent horse this week,with HRA.[;)]
A tariff of £200 at birth and £20 per month subsequently per foal.At 2yo £200 + £200 if it ever runs with the £20 pm continuing until death.
For every foal registered,all to be used for equine welfare post racing days.More practical,more affordable and non refundable.
Btw I have inherited a leg of a decent horse this week,with HRA.[;)]
Glantoby
Nice idea and rather like elise's earlier suggestion, probably a more practical solution than my own. Whack it in to the RFC mob would be my suggestion - god knows it's light years ahead of anything else they've implemented.
I can't recall exactly, but I think I read on another thread that your father passed away this week. Condolences if that is the case and apolgies if I've got it wrong. I'm guessing that this might be how you've come to inherit a share in a good one with Sir Henry. Hope it does well for you - I'm sure that's what your Dad would have wanted!
Nice idea and rather like elise's earlier suggestion, probably a more practical solution than my own. Whack it in to the RFC mob would be my suggestion - god knows it's light years ahead of anything else they've implemented.
I can't recall exactly, but I think I read on another thread that your father passed away this week. Condolences if that is the case and apolgies if I've got it wrong. I'm guessing that this might be how you've come to inherit a share in a good one with Sir Henry. Hope it does well for you - I'm sure that's what your Dad would have wanted!
* Glentoby (apols - twice I've got wrong now)
why not charge owners a few quid every time they make an entry ?
Passed away early hours Friday gerry but he loved this forum for the banter,degenerative battle.
Anyway,many thanks to all,you all contributed,daft or not it all helped.
Now you are just left with me.[;)][;)][;)][;)]
GC is all I can give you,as he is/was my mums and always will be,he will be ok forever.[;)]
Anyway,many thanks to all,you all contributed,daft or not it all helped.
Now you are just left with me.[;)][;)][;)][;)]
GC is all I can give you,as he is/was my mums and always will be,he will be ok forever.[;)]
Another possibility although owners with horses that are frequently entered up would end up sunsidising others? (David Evans and his owners would probably have a thing or two to say)
On that sad note I'm turning in. All the best GT.
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