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Frankel is now the fourth highest-rated Flat horse in the Timeform's history following his win in the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes at Ascot on Saturday.
Sir Henry Cecil's unbeaten colt was on a mark of 142 going into the QIPCO-sponsored showpiece but has provisionally been put up a pound to 143 by the Halifax-based firm.
Only Sea Bird (145) and Brigadier Gerard (144) and Tudor Minstrel (144) have been rated higher.
Timeform's 140+ rated horses:
145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
143 Frankel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble.
Sir Henry Cecil's unbeaten colt was on a mark of 142 going into the QIPCO-sponsored showpiece but has provisionally been put up a pound to 143 by the Halifax-based firm.
Only Sea Bird (145) and Brigadier Gerard (144) and Tudor Minstrel (144) have been rated higher.
Timeform's 140+ rated horses:
145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
143 Frankel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble.
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Would that be his end of season rating though Simon, i seem to remember they let it rise during the season only to amend it at the end of the season(unless its done differently now) for which i apologise
He must be that good, i wouldnt even back myself to beat him
He must be that good, i wouldnt even back myself to beat him
WALOFS, anyone who thinks that was his best run today needs a Taxi [smiley:crazy]
That would indeed be an end-of-season rating, zilzal.
he's not better than sea the stars, i'll tell you that for nothing
Working on the TIMEFORM figure for FRANKEL of 143 ...
It means that TIMEFORM have had to ..
Raise EXCELEBRATION - from 128 to 135
IMMORTAL VERSE - Running 2 lbs below her best of 127 - at 125 today
DUBAWI GOLD - Be RAISED from 123 to 128
DICK TURPIN - ran EQUAL to his BEST performance of 127
---------------------------------
On OFFICIAl Ratings
DUBAWI GOLD - was awarded a 117 for his 2nd to Frankel in the Guineas
Dubai Gold replicated that 117 run TO THE OUNCE[/b[ in the Irish 2000 Guineas -
with the winner Roderic O'Conner 119 - and the 5 lengths away 4th High Ruler on 105.
Dubawi Gold - then ran BELOW form at Royal Ascot, behind Frankel, when beaten nearly 14 lengths
Dubai Gold - was the 4th in the Lockinge - a neck in front of the [BOTH 109 rated) Doncaster Rover and The Cheka - who were separated by just a head.
That would make Dubawi Gold 110 in the Lockinge - and he was indeed a length behind the 112 rated runner-up Beacon Lodge.
EXCELEBRATION, carrying a 2lb penalty, beat Beacon Lodge 6 lengths - making [b]129 for Excelebration, on the scale of MY Handicap - The Official assessor awarded 126.
DUBAWI GOLD - Then won the Celebrartion Mile at Goodwwod - beating, the then, 111 rated Set The Trend (having it's 15th lifetime outing - and never higher than 111) by half a length - with the 112 Beacon Lodge (bitten on head by Poet's Voice, a furlong out) a further half a length third.... with the 98 rated RIGGINS (28th next time out in the Cambridgeshire) just 5 lengths adrift.
DUBAWI GOLD - then finished 4th to Excelebration in France - a length and a half behind the runner-up, the 120 rated RIO DEL PLATA - who HAD run to that 120 rating when 3rd to FRANKEL and CANFORD CLIFFS in the SUSSEX at Goodwood.... giving DUBAWI GOLD aPERFECT tie-in 117 rating - yet again.
Yet, now we are expected to accept that DUBAWI GOLD has run a LIFETIME best TODAY
He beat the 114 rated Poet's Voice just over a length - a PERFECT tie-in, therefore on ratings - with the 115 rated Side Glance a head away.
Having DUBAWI GOLD running a LIFETIME best TODAY -
ALSO means the pacemaker BULLET TRAIN has ALSO run an equal LIFETIME best TODAY[/b) on 109.
------------------------------------
So, in summary...
For TIMEFORM to give FRANKEL 143 today - they have to say that DUBAWI GOLD - beaten 8 lengths - has run a LIFETIME BEST - up from 123 to 128 on THEIR SCALE.
For [b]OFFICIAL RATINGS to get FRANKEL anywhere near 140 -
They will have to say that DUBAWI GOLD has run [b]a LIFETIME BEST by 7 lbs{/b] to 124 -
when the horse has run to 117 THREE times in it's last 6 outings - and THREE times BELOW that 117.
It means that TIMEFORM have had to ..
Raise EXCELEBRATION - from 128 to 135
IMMORTAL VERSE - Running 2 lbs below her best of 127 - at 125 today
DUBAWI GOLD - Be RAISED from 123 to 128
DICK TURPIN - ran EQUAL to his BEST performance of 127
---------------------------------
On OFFICIAl Ratings
DUBAWI GOLD - was awarded a 117 for his 2nd to Frankel in the Guineas
Dubai Gold replicated that 117 run TO THE OUNCE[/b[ in the Irish 2000 Guineas -
with the winner Roderic O'Conner 119 - and the 5 lengths away 4th High Ruler on 105.
Dubawi Gold - then ran BELOW form at Royal Ascot, behind Frankel, when beaten nearly 14 lengths
Dubai Gold - was the 4th in the Lockinge - a neck in front of the [BOTH 109 rated) Doncaster Rover and The Cheka - who were separated by just a head.
That would make Dubawi Gold 110 in the Lockinge - and he was indeed a length behind the 112 rated runner-up Beacon Lodge.
EXCELEBRATION, carrying a 2lb penalty, beat Beacon Lodge 6 lengths - making [b]129 for Excelebration, on the scale of MY Handicap - The Official assessor awarded 126.
DUBAWI GOLD - Then won the Celebrartion Mile at Goodwwod - beating, the then, 111 rated Set The Trend (having it's 15th lifetime outing - and never higher than 111) by half a length - with the 112 Beacon Lodge (bitten on head by Poet's Voice, a furlong out) a further half a length third.... with the 98 rated RIGGINS (28th next time out in the Cambridgeshire) just 5 lengths adrift.
DUBAWI GOLD - then finished 4th to Excelebration in France - a length and a half behind the runner-up, the 120 rated RIO DEL PLATA - who HAD run to that 120 rating when 3rd to FRANKEL and CANFORD CLIFFS in the SUSSEX at Goodwood.... giving DUBAWI GOLD aPERFECT tie-in 117 rating - yet again.
Yet, now we are expected to accept that DUBAWI GOLD has run a LIFETIME best TODAY
He beat the 114 rated Poet's Voice just over a length - a PERFECT tie-in, therefore on ratings - with the 115 rated Side Glance a head away.
Having DUBAWI GOLD running a LIFETIME best TODAY -
ALSO means the pacemaker BULLET TRAIN has ALSO run an equal LIFETIME best TODAY[/b) on 109.
------------------------------------
So, in summary...
For TIMEFORM to give FRANKEL 143 today - they have to say that DUBAWI GOLD - beaten 8 lengths - has run a LIFETIME BEST - up from 123 to 128 on THEIR SCALE.
For [b]OFFICIAL RATINGS to get FRANKEL anywhere near 140 -
They will have to say that DUBAWI GOLD has run [b]a LIFETIME BEST by 7 lbs{/b] to 124 -
when the horse has run to 117 THREE times in it's last 6 outings - and THREE times BELOW that 117.
the shocking thing is, imagine if frankel had a proper pacemaker to take him into the 2 furlong mark, hed have destroyed todays field by 10 lengths
saw Frankel at Ascot today anther great performance, the first time i saw him run was in the royal lodge last year his rider had the temerity to loop round the entire field as they turned into the straight and then proceeded to pull ten lengths clear .
If you want to gage just how good this Horse is , then watch that race
again , It is with out doubt the most astonishing performance ever seen on a Racecourse
If you want to gage just how good this Horse is , then watch that race
again , It is with out doubt the most astonishing performance ever seen on a Racecourse
well put ONLOOKER, at least there is some sane people around here- many will just ignore your brilliant post unfortunately
tbh, he's just beat group2 horses over and over, bar the time the canford cliffs went wrong- and even through that line of form with canford cliffs and rip van winkle, it can still be seen clearly that sea the stars was the better animal
I think the rating is a little inflated certainly, but this yr he has demonstrated he is an oustanding miler at 3, no matter what he has beaten, he has beaten them senseless (except at Ascot, where he was arguably given an iffy ride and Henry's horses were arguably running below form).
A brilliant post by onlooker. Unfortunately, totally inaccurate. You seem to be under the impression that Timeform use the same pounds per second (and therefore pounds per length) as you. They do not. I suspect they never have.
Dubawi Gold was rated 123 by Timeform going into the race and is still rated 123 after it.
It's early days yet guys. Next season could be a cracker. Let's enjoy it while we can. There is plenty of mediocrity about.
I only hope we get a top notch set of 3 year olds to take him on next season. He could be the second coming and definitive proof would be brilliant.
I only hope we get a top notch set of 3 year olds to take him on next season. He could be the second coming and definitive proof would be brilliant.
prufrock, do you fancy anything in the sprints at Bath tomoz?
Although Frankel is always accompanied by hype, it's deservedly warranted in this case. I've no doubt at all he would beat STS (one of the greats without question) over a mile and next year may provide answers to could he beat him over 10f. Personally I think he would have and it would not surprise me if he remained unbeaten. God knows what AOB would say about Frankel if he trained him.
A few fast times recorded today at Ascot but Frankel didn't record one of them.
Can't see how his rating can have gone up as a result of today's effort.
Can't see how his rating can have gone up as a result of today's effort.
Evening Prufrock.
You intimate that Timeform use 2 AND a HALF pounds per length - at a MILE.
DUBAWI GOLD 123 - beaten EIGHT lengths - FRANKEL 143 = 20 lbs for 8 lengths.
Fine - if that is the case - But in ALL my years of monitoring/cross matching their ratings - that has not appeared to be the regular occurrence.
However - there was a second, indeed, more detailed appraisal of what the OFFICIAL Ratings could, or would, be were FRANKEL to be granted a similarly high rating - albeit on their lower overall level than Timeform scale.
As I posted - such a similar inference AS TIMEFORM's - would mean a large rise for DUBAWI GOLD - to, around 124, from 117.
I will be amazed if DUBAWI GOLD ever runs to an OFFICIAL 124 - let alone, be deemed to have done so TODAY.
You intimate that Timeform use 2 AND a HALF pounds per length - at a MILE.
DUBAWI GOLD 123 - beaten EIGHT lengths - FRANKEL 143 = 20 lbs for 8 lengths.
Fine - if that is the case - But in ALL my years of monitoring/cross matching their ratings - that has not appeared to be the regular occurrence.
However - there was a second, indeed, more detailed appraisal of what the OFFICIAL Ratings could, or would, be were FRANKEL to be granted a similarly high rating - albeit on their lower overall level than Timeform scale.
As I posted - such a similar inference AS TIMEFORM's - would mean a large rise for DUBAWI GOLD - to, around 124, from 117.
I will be amazed if DUBAWI GOLD ever runs to an OFFICIAL 124 - let alone, be deemed to have done so TODAY.
i'd be shocked if dubawi gold was a 117 horse! SHOCKED!
hdubawi gold's best performance- won a group 2 from set the trend( a 111 rated animal) 1/2 lenght getting 6lbs! that would give him a rating of 107 i would say
The race was a perfect example of how to get the best horse beat,but even off no pace he still wins 4ls a pity really as it would be interesting to see what this fellas really capable of.Just looking at the donny race last year winning 13ls when it couldv'e won 20ls and still produced a decent time cantering as a 2yr old!!!Lot more from this fella,in all probability double the margin of victory would be my guess in a true run race against the same oppostion.
i can lend you a fiver towards buying him giggsy if you like thanks to the aptly named true to form winning tonight at your fav track -well it was all in the formbook after all(it was honest so hope ya filled ya boots at 12s ) -aint seen you on the poopdeck for a while if you dont mind me saying so by the way [;)]
For the record Diamond makes a very valid point 4 posts in lol
-well it was all in the formbook after all(it was honest so hope ya filled ya boots at 12s ) -aint seen you on the poopdeck for a while if you dont mind me saying so by the way [;)]For the record Diamond makes a very valid point 4 posts in lol
Dubawi Gold was not getting weight from anything at Goodwood and he beat them a hell of a lot easier than 1/2 a length .
If you think weight for age is unfair and take winning margins literally then Youmzain was better than Sea The Stars and Shardari superior to Dancing Brave.
Onlooker's post is a good one though . I rated Frankel at 137.5 before today and wouldn't change it. I rate them on what they could be expected to produce on any given day (which they might not need to show if they have plenty in hand) considering what they have done overall.
Timeform's problem is the rating has to come from the horse's best performance and they cannot for some reason use any discretion in terms of how visually impressive the horse was, or how much the horse had in hand, so they have to take the winning margins literally and this leads them to inflate the ratings of horses who are borderline Group 2 class up towards the high 120s (which is above average Group 1) .
One thing i consider is how far from the finish the race was effectively won, which is at least as important as the final distance IMO . Sea The Stars i rated 136, if i'd just gone with winning margins i'd have had Youmzain 130+ rather than low 120s .The Arc was all over a furlong out,nothing was going to get near enough to challenge once STS had asserted, Youmzain was beaten out of sight if you look it at that way.
If you think weight for age is unfair and take winning margins literally then Youmzain was better than Sea The Stars and Shardari superior to Dancing Brave.
Onlooker's post is a good one though . I rated Frankel at 137.5 before today and wouldn't change it. I rate them on what they could be expected to produce on any given day (which they might not need to show if they have plenty in hand) considering what they have done overall.
Timeform's problem is the rating has to come from the horse's best performance and they cannot for some reason use any discretion in terms of how visually impressive the horse was, or how much the horse had in hand, so they have to take the winning margins literally and this leads them to inflate the ratings of horses who are borderline Group 2 class up towards the high 120s (which is above average Group 1) .
One thing i consider is how far from the finish the race was effectively won, which is at least as important as the final distance IMO . Sea The Stars i rated 136, if i'd just gone with winning margins i'd have had Youmzain 130+ rather than low 120s .The Arc was all over a furlong out,nothing was going to get near enough to challenge once STS had asserted, Youmzain was beaten out of sight if you look it at that way.
do you think frankel will stay, thegiggilo? comparing last times he's doin in last few furlongs? or do you do that?
does he really deserve this rating?
« 1 2 Frankel 4/11F 3 9-0 Sir Henry Cecil 135 * *
b c Galileo (IRE) - Kind (IRE) (Danehill) Tom Queally
Took keen hold early, held up until moved through to go 2nd halfway, closed to lead well over 1f out and soon clear, reminders inside final furlong, ran on powerfully (tchd 2-5 and 1-2 in places)
« 2 7 4 Excelebration (IRE) 6/1 3 9-0 Marco Botti 126 * *
b c Exceed And Excel (AUS) - Sun Shower (IRE) (Indian Ridge) Jamie Spencer
Sweating, held up, progress from halfway, ridden to take 2nd over 1f out, ran on well but vain pursuit of winner (op 7-1)
« 3 6 3½ Immortal Verse (IRE) 7/1 3 8-11 Robert Collet 121 * *
b f Pivotal - Side Of Paradise (IRE) (Sadler's Wells) Gerald Mosse
Slowly into stride, held up in last, progress 2f out to chase leading pair over 1f out, no impression, just held on for 3rd (op 8-1)
« 4 3 nk Dubawi Gold 28/1 3 9-0 Richard Hannon 117 * *
b c Dubawi (IRE) - Savannah Belle (Green Desert) J Murtagh
Raced in 3rd to halfway, outpaced and struggling 3f out, no danger after, stayed on final furlong (op 40-1)
« 5 5 ¾ Dick Turpin (IRE) 14/1 4 9-3 Richard Hannon 122 * *
how is this an improved performance? are they just deciding excel et al have improved again?
deluded!
« 1 2 Frankel 4/11F 3 9-0 Sir Henry Cecil 135 * *
b c Galileo (IRE) - Kind (IRE) (Danehill) Tom Queally
Took keen hold early, held up until moved through to go 2nd halfway, closed to lead well over 1f out and soon clear, reminders inside final furlong, ran on powerfully (tchd 2-5 and 1-2 in places)
« 2 7 4 Excelebration (IRE) 6/1 3 9-0 Marco Botti 126 * *
b c Exceed And Excel (AUS) - Sun Shower (IRE) (Indian Ridge) Jamie Spencer
Sweating, held up, progress from halfway, ridden to take 2nd over 1f out, ran on well but vain pursuit of winner (op 7-1)
« 3 6 3½ Immortal Verse (IRE) 7/1 3 8-11 Robert Collet 121 * *
b f Pivotal - Side Of Paradise (IRE) (Sadler's Wells) Gerald Mosse
Slowly into stride, held up in last, progress 2f out to chase leading pair over 1f out, no impression, just held on for 3rd (op 8-1)
« 4 3 nk Dubawi Gold 28/1 3 9-0 Richard Hannon 117 * *
b c Dubawi (IRE) - Savannah Belle (Green Desert) J Murtagh
Raced in 3rd to halfway, outpaced and struggling 3f out, no danger after, stayed on final furlong (op 40-1)
« 5 5 ¾ Dick Turpin (IRE) 14/1 4 9-3 Richard Hannon 122 * *
how is this an improved performance? are they just deciding excel et al have improved again?
deluded!
ok, dubawi gold may be a little better than 107, but not a whole lot- and nowhere near 124 or 117 for that matter- there is not one piece of form that suggests so
well hes only ever beat the 2nd 4 L max ever so whats his rating 138?
are they telling me he'd be giving many past 'legends' a race and in many cases a beating!
fook me!
are they telling me he'd be giving many past 'legends' a race and in many cases a beating!
fook me!
he is busy studying videos Taipan -in the meantime i will find a youtube song to wind him up -quite a good ad lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roPQ_M3yJTA&ob=av2e
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roPQ_M3yJTA&ob=av2e
well i rate ecelebrattion around 121 max- so work it out around that- that would give frankel 129+
there's no ad there, it just goes straight into that crappy song
im hard to understand taipan -im a geordie with a pakistani accent
Giggsy gets me though .......and he knows i get him
Giggsy gets me though .......and he knows i get him
Can't see how you'd have Excelebration as low as 121!
Frankel is pretty much all that has beaten him . He's won the Moulin, one of the Big 4 European Mile Races (for all age), beat Immortal Verse who won one the other French one, and Frankel has won the other two over here.
Take Frankel out and he has won 2/4 , and has beaten the winner of one of the others, and would appear on more than 1 form line to be better than Canford Cliffs.
He also won a couple of lesser races by the sort of easy margins that only a proper Group 1 horse could. If he went to the Breeder's Cup i expect he would be close to favouritism against Goldikova.
All in all, he has the sort of form you would expect to be challenging to be top european miler in a typical year , which would entitle him to a rating about 128.
Frankel is pretty much all that has beaten him . He's won the Moulin, one of the Big 4 European Mile Races (for all age), beat Immortal Verse who won one the other French one, and Frankel has won the other two over here.
Take Frankel out and he has won 2/4 , and has beaten the winner of one of the others, and would appear on more than 1 form line to be better than Canford Cliffs.
He also won a couple of lesser races by the sort of easy margins that only a proper Group 1 horse could. If he went to the Breeder's Cup i expect he would be close to favouritism against Goldikova.
All in all, he has the sort of form you would expect to be challenging to be top european miler in a typical year , which would entitle him to a rating about 128.
no, no/ what has he actually won? not much, is the answer. he beat the mighty rio de la plata(120 is a true rating) for his g1-and can be rated quite easily around that race, and around the g2 he won, where no doubt dubawi gold underperformed slightly
and immortal verse is rated 111or, which is easy enough to rate aaround that race at ascot it won
and immortal verse is rated 111or, which is easy enough to rate aaround that race at ascot it won
tobermory
16 Oct 11 01:10
Can't see how you'd have Excelebration as low as 121!
Frankel is pretty much all that has beaten him . He's won the Moulin, one of the Big 4 European Mile Races (for all age), beat Immortal Verse who won one the other French one, and Frankel has won the other two over here.
Take Frankel out and he has won 2/4 , and has beaten the winner of one of the others, and would appear on more than 1 form line to be better than Canford Cliffs.
He also won a couple of lesser races by the sort of easy margins that only a proper Group 1 horse could. If he went to the Breeder's Cup i expect he would be close to favouritism against Goldikova.
All in all, he has the sort of form you would expect to be challenging to be top european miler in a typical year , which would entitle him to a rating about 128.
is excelebration a 138 rated horse tho? frankels met him 3 times and only ever finished up to 4L in front!! according to timeform, this is frankels best ever performance?
anyone else confused by this![smiley:crazy]
16 Oct 11 01:10
Can't see how you'd have Excelebration as low as 121!
Frankel is pretty much all that has beaten him . He's won the Moulin, one of the Big 4 European Mile Races (for all age), beat Immortal Verse who won one the other French one, and Frankel has won the other two over here.
Take Frankel out and he has won 2/4 , and has beaten the winner of one of the others, and would appear on more than 1 form line to be better than Canford Cliffs.
He also won a couple of lesser races by the sort of easy margins that only a proper Group 1 horse could. If he went to the Breeder's Cup i expect he would be close to favouritism against Goldikova.
All in all, he has the sort of form you would expect to be challenging to be top european miler in a typical year , which would entitle him to a rating about 128.
is excelebration a 138 rated horse tho? frankels met him 3 times and only ever finished up to 4L in front!! according to timeform, this is frankels best ever performance?
anyone else confused by this![smiley:crazy]
Sorry, taipan - But, I'm afraid, mate, that your are a MILE OUT with ALL your figures.
No wonder you are, "confused."
Don't mean that in a vindictive, or derogatory way - But, take it from me, your really are. ...
- and I really KNOW, too.
Something that I can say without fear... Believe me.
No wonder you are, "confused."
Don't mean that in a vindictive, or derogatory way - But, take it from me, your really are. ...
- and I really KNOW, too.
Something that I can say without fear... Believe me.
i would have loved to see excel line up against goldi in the u.s!
onlooker- they are official handicappers ratings i'm giving there- to you think he is so wrong, i base my ratings around his. he is not wrong! i'm sure your OWN ratings may be a little differnent
btw onlooker i seen your post earlier, i know you know what you're talking about, but i can give my rating too
and how can you say the ratings are miles off! there are the exact same ratings you used in your post earlier
time for another nelly furtado moment taipan
Fight ya corner mate if ya believe its true cos some of these guys views are about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit (imo of course)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6JnGBs88sL0
Spurs will bt the toon as well so take note
Fight ya corner mate if ya believe its true cos some of these guys views are about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit (imo of course)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6JnGBs88sL0
Spurs will bt the toon as well so take note
taipan 501 -
I had no wish for this to turn into an emotive argument -
However, as you have invited it - I will now have point out the error of your ways.
You say ... "taipan501 16 Oct 11 01:40
how can you say the ratings are miles off! there are the exact same ratings you used in your post earlier
[b[Answer[/b] - Yes - BUT with YOUR different interpretation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1
- taipan501 15 Oct 11 23:12
hdubawi gold's best performance- won a group 2 from set the trend( a 111 rated animal) 1/2 lenght getting 6lbs! that would give him a rating of 107 i would say
ANSWER
You say - "getting 6lbs!" ......
You appear to be UNAWARE of the Weight-for-age scale.
Which effectively means - They met a LEVEL weights - so, even on YOUR interpretation (with CORRECT weight-for-age applied Dubawi Gold was 112 - NOT your 107.
2 -
taipan501 16 Oct 11 00:40
ok, dubawi gold may be a little better than 107, but not a whole lot- and nowhere near 124 or 117 for that matter- there is not one piece of form that suggests so
ANSWER
You say - "there is not one piece of form that suggests so"
Now that is a silly assertion -
You claim you are working around Official Ratings -
Well, DUBAWI GOLD got his OFFICIAL 117 from BOTH the English 2000 Guineas - and The Irish 2000 Guineas - where, as I pointed out in my earlier analysis, that 117 was replicated to the pound with the winner Roderic O'Conner.... That's where the 117s come from.
So - You ARE, a MILE OUT, there.
3
taipan501 16 Oct 11 01:17
no, no/ what has he (Excelebration* my insertion) actually won? not much, is the answer. he beat the mighty rio de la plata(120 is a true rating) for his g1-and can be rated quite easily around that race, and around the g2 he won, where no doubt dubawi gold underperformed slightly
ANSWER
You say - "he (Excelebration) beat the mighty rio de la plata(120 is a true rating)"
Well, if Rio Del Plata is a, "true 120 rating ... Which he IS ...
Then, when Excelebration beat Rio Del Plata in the Prix Moulin - DUBAI GOLD WAS a 117 (again) - as he finished one and a half lengths behind Rio - at [b]weight-for-age LEVEL weights
You have, again, FAILED to take weight-for-age into account when determining your Excelebration rating.
4
taipan501 16 Oct 11 01:18
and immortal verse is rated 111or, which is easy enough to rate aaround that race at ascot it won
ANSWER
You say - "immortal verse is rated 111or."
You claim that you are working around Official ratings ...
So, WHERE ON EARTH have you got that 111or (111 OFFICIAL rating) from?
IMMORTAL VERSE is Officially rated121 - following her wins in the Coronation at Royal Ascot - and defeat of Goldikova in the Jacques Le Marois.
You appear to be rating around a figure from PRIOR to those TWO Group ONE successes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said earlier, taipan501 -
I have no wish for this thread to deteriorate to unwarranted levels -
But, I can reason and analyse with precise figures and accurate explanations -
There are but a handful, if that, of people in the whole country who can match me at Handicapping.
Believe me.
I had no wish for this to turn into an emotive argument -
However, as you have invited it - I will now have point out the error of your ways.
You say ... "taipan501 16 Oct 11 01:40
how can you say the ratings are miles off! there are the exact same ratings you used in your post earlier
[b[Answer[/b] - Yes - BUT with YOUR different interpretation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1
- taipan501 15 Oct 11 23:12
hdubawi gold's best performance- won a group 2 from set the trend( a 111 rated animal) 1/2 lenght getting 6lbs! that would give him a rating of 107 i would say
ANSWER
You say - "getting 6lbs!" ......
You appear to be UNAWARE of the Weight-for-age scale.
Which effectively means - They met a LEVEL weights - so, even on YOUR interpretation (with CORRECT weight-for-age applied Dubawi Gold was 112 - NOT your 107.
2 -
taipan501 16 Oct 11 00:40
ok, dubawi gold may be a little better than 107, but not a whole lot- and nowhere near 124 or 117 for that matter- there is not one piece of form that suggests so
ANSWER
You say - "there is not one piece of form that suggests so"
Now that is a silly assertion -
You claim you are working around Official Ratings -
Well, DUBAWI GOLD got his OFFICIAL 117 from BOTH the English 2000 Guineas - and The Irish 2000 Guineas - where, as I pointed out in my earlier analysis, that 117 was replicated to the pound with the winner Roderic O'Conner.... That's where the 117s come from.
So - You ARE, a MILE OUT, there.
3
taipan501 16 Oct 11 01:17
no, no/ what has he (Excelebration* my insertion) actually won? not much, is the answer. he beat the mighty rio de la plata(120 is a true rating) for his g1-and can be rated quite easily around that race, and around the g2 he won, where no doubt dubawi gold underperformed slightly
ANSWER
You say - "he (Excelebration) beat the mighty rio de la plata(120 is a true rating)"
Well, if Rio Del Plata is a, "true 120 rating ... Which he IS ...
Then, when Excelebration beat Rio Del Plata in the Prix Moulin - DUBAI GOLD WAS a 117 (again) - as he finished one and a half lengths behind Rio - at [b]weight-for-age LEVEL weights
You have, again, FAILED to take weight-for-age into account when determining your Excelebration rating.
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taipan501 16 Oct 11 01:18
and immortal verse is rated 111or, which is easy enough to rate aaround that race at ascot it won
ANSWER
You say - "immortal verse is rated 111or."
You claim that you are working around Official ratings ...
So, WHERE ON EARTH have you got that 111or (111 OFFICIAL rating) from?
IMMORTAL VERSE is Officially rated121 - following her wins in the Coronation at Royal Ascot - and defeat of Goldikova in the Jacques Le Marois.
You appear to be rating around a figure from PRIOR to those TWO Group ONE successes.
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As I said earlier, taipan501 -
I have no wish for this thread to deteriorate to unwarranted levels -
But, I can reason and analyse with precise figures and accurate explanations -
There are but a handful, if that, of people in the whole country who can match me at Handicapping.
Believe me.
It's quite interesting that last season frankel ran 1 1/2ls quicker than red jazz as a 2yr old in a race he was eased on a newmarket card,irrelevant to the present but quite revealing just how much better he maybe as a 3yr old that hasn't yet been seen on the clock!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hqgC3W9GUI&feature=relmfu
prufrock -
A certain gelding appears to have had a confidence crisis - since being hit across his head 18 lbs ago.
He looked a 'winner in waiting' that day - but, of course, we know the rest.
Very disappointing for all concerned
- I can only sympathise with them.
Hard to say what else can be done, following the tongue-tie and other paraphernalia.
Presumably, he can only keep trying, one way or another.
A certain gelding appears to have had a confidence crisis - since being hit across his head 18 lbs ago.
He looked a 'winner in waiting' that day - but, of course, we know the rest.
Very disappointing for all concerned
- I can only sympathise with them.Hard to say what else can be done, following the tongue-tie and other paraphernalia.
Presumably, he can only keep trying, one way or another.
HRAC says he is the best horse he has seen.thats good enough for me
So much b0ll0cks in this thread. Timeform have put the horse up a pound ffs, so if you have a problem you should have been outside their offices with placards since May. Frankel is 135 bha (sea the stars was 136 at best) and beat the 2nd horse rated 126 by an easy 4 lengths justifying that rating.
Oct 17, 2011 -- 12:36AM, taipan501 wrote:
what you on bout man? talk sense
your having f'ing kittens over a rating that has substantially been in place for months, (presumably because you're consumed with hatred and jealously)
More on the rationale behind Frankel's rating and the rest of Champions Day.
http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/events/champions-day/handicappers-corners-frankel-closing-in-on-all-time-gre-171011.html
http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/events/champions-day/handicappers-corners-frankel-closing-in-on-all-time-gre-171011.html
Thanks for the comments about OWOA, onlooker. Given up trying to figure him out.
Methods of returning official margins have changed (several times) over the years, and Timeform's pounds-per-length under different circumstances have changed accordingly. Logically, they had to.
Excelebration's rating ties in with an upward revision of his previous form, notably his thrashing of Group 2 rivals in the German 2000 Guineas and the Hungerford Stakes.
Side Glance is rated just below what he was rated mid-season, Poet's Voice is still quite some way below what he was rated last year. Immortal Verse and Dick Turpin are both several pounds below form.
No horse other than Frankel has been considered to have improved, and the improvement in his case was only 1 lb.
As much to the point, the 143 assessment is what you would expect of a race in which the prior ratings were 142/133/127/123/127/119/119/113 and the margins - sizeable ones for a race at a mile on quite quick ground - were as they were.
Methods of returning official margins have changed (several times) over the years, and Timeform's pounds-per-length under different circumstances have changed accordingly. Logically, they had to.
Excelebration's rating ties in with an upward revision of his previous form, notably his thrashing of Group 2 rivals in the German 2000 Guineas and the Hungerford Stakes.
Side Glance is rated just below what he was rated mid-season, Poet's Voice is still quite some way below what he was rated last year. Immortal Verse and Dick Turpin are both several pounds below form.
No horse other than Frankel has been considered to have improved, and the improvement in his case was only 1 lb.
As much to the point, the 143 assessment is what you would expect of a race in which the prior ratings were 142/133/127/123/127/119/119/113 and the margins - sizeable ones for a race at a mile on quite quick ground - were as they were.
hi simon
how do u rate EXCELEBRATIONS(8-11) 1 1/2 beating of rio de la plata (9-2)?
what was RIO's rpr before excel beat him and what is it now? and what was exceleprations rpr after this performance and how did u come to it?
his germn guineas 'thrashing' was good to look at but have u seen what the 3 horses behind have achieved? handicappers imo.
how do u rate EXCELEBRATIONS(8-11) 1 1/2 beating of rio de la plata (9-2)?
what was RIO's rpr before excel beat him and what is it now? and what was exceleprations rpr after this performance and how did u come to it?
his germn guineas 'thrashing' was good to look at but have u seen what the 3 horses behind have achieved? handicappers imo.
can u also justify frankels 1lb higher rating given excel finished 4L behind for the 2nd time this season!
im not too experienced when it comes to ratings and just trying to get around how u came to these conclusions, if u have the time, would be much appreciated!
cheers.
im not too experienced when it comes to ratings and just trying to get around how u came to these conclusions, if u have the time, would be much appreciated!
cheers.
Hello! Is rscaughtboy here?
No. Shoot.
I was going to explain to him why Dancing Brave was better than STS.
Never mind I will look elsewhere.
No. Shoot.
I was going to explain to him why Dancing Brave was better than STS.
Never mind I will look elsewhere.
what a load of rubbish bring any horse over 1 mile and it will be beat and beat easy. its easy to talk but if cecil says its the best he as had/seen then how can numptys on here argue?? all saying this but bring any horse an he would smash them to bets. why not enjoy a horse of a lifetime instaed of wanting him to get beat, quite sad if you ask me. he is a machine and dettori as had 500 group or group1 successes and even he says he as never seen anything like frankel before. this is the best miler ever would absolutely destoy sea the stars. stupid debate about ratings.
Frankel is rated higher than Mill Reef and Dancing Brave,so plenty of room for disagreement with Frankels rating imo
Look at the achievements of those horses and the calibre of opposition they faced,compared to what Frankel has faced.
Absolute joke imo
Look at the achievements of those horses and the calibre of opposition they faced,compared to what Frankel has faced.
Absolute joke imo
Nobody seems to be taking into account the huge gulf between the 3yo's and the older horses. Goldikova and Canford Cliffs were rightly thought to be very good milers over the last 2 seasons but the form book now says that Frankel, Excelebration, Immortal Verse and possibly Dream Ahead are better than either of them and Frankel dominates the 3yo's. Why does nobody believe that Dick Turpin, who was very close to the top of his generation, ran to form on Saturday? He had won a recent warm up race and I see no reason to doubt that both Canford Cliffs and Dick Turpin ran to form when beaten by Frankel this year. taipan, if you only rate Excelebration at 121, you must have Goldikova on about 108 through Immortal Verse? I don't believe that any of the milers that raced last season would have beaten Frankel or Excelebration on Saturday.
My initial reaction to the race was 145? and wait to see the full result.
After looking at it on paper I do not believe you can find a key so a provisional rating it has to be.
However the Champion is a different kettle of fish and I have no hesitation in rating Cirrus Des Aigles at 129.
After looking at it on paper I do not believe you can find a key so a provisional rating it has to be.
However the Champion is a different kettle of fish and I have no hesitation in rating Cirrus Des Aigles at 129.
I'm sure I saw an interview with a Timeform ratings compiler who went through the process they use to come to a final rating, one of the aspects was how efficiently the race was run which affects the final time. I have rated Frankels QE2 as 83 which is slow for a Group 1 final time rating and 12 lengths slower than his Guineas win, Timeform may have extrapolated the gaps between the horses to what they think it would have been had the race been run closer to 100% efficiency.
timeform are saying this is his best performance, how?
how is this his best? how has he improved 1 more pound when he only beat excelebration 4L AGAIN?
excelebration(8-11) beat rio de la plata(9-2) bu 1 and a half lengths, and was all out.
so if excelebration is relly rated that highly , shouldnt rios rating be brought right up there? it was in his favoured soft ground so no excuses there!!
also i cant have dream ahead better than goldikova, he beat her over 7f at longchamp, how many times has this happened? shes also 6, i think its fair to say shes not the same horse she once was!
im just puzzled by the rating if he cant beat excel more than 4L and excel is all out to beat rio de la plata!
how is this his best? how has he improved 1 more pound when he only beat excelebration 4L AGAIN?
excelebration(8-11) beat rio de la plata(9-2) bu 1 and a half lengths, and was all out.
so if excelebration is relly rated that highly , shouldnt rios rating be brought right up there? it was in his favoured soft ground so no excuses there!!
also i cant have dream ahead better than goldikova, he beat her over 7f at longchamp, how many times has this happened? shes also 6, i think its fair to say shes not the same horse she once was!
im just puzzled by the rating if he cant beat excel more than 4L and excel is all out to beat rio de la plata!
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