Does the new whip ban signal the end of the mccoy dominence?

of course he will,dont be so stupid to ask such a question

excellent well thought out responses as ever on here,how many times have we seen mccoy get up in a driving finish after whipping his mount countless times after the last?id say easily half of his winners!

name one other fooking jockey that puts in half as much effort in driving a horse hands and heels ALONE! fooking none, all lazt coonts, english jockeys that is!!

wow,you sound like a real shroodie

you sound like a nob

The thing is though, although McCoy might have got horses up that didn't look like winning when using the whip, the other jockeys he was beating were using them too despite being beaten so it's not really just McCoy it will be affecting. It would only really be an issue if the new rule applied to McCoy only.

What I do think we might see more of though is horses falling at the last fence when the jockeys know they can only have 5 slaps after jumping the last and at the risk of stating the obvious, no matter how often you hit a horse, it can't go any faster than its maximum speed and so I suspect that we won't see jockeys slowing horses into the last flight as much (unless they have a big lead) if they then know they have to get it going again after jumping the hurdle/fence but still only have 5 slaps to do so.

Watched a couple of hands and heels races today and to be honest several horses would have run much better had they been given a few slaps to get them up in the hunt.

This new rule is going to transform the whole of British racing to the point where we become a Third World racing industry.

an obvious point about 'what were the rest of the jockeys doing '- but overlooked entirely by OP.

finally a post with some substance,we'll said ima_mazed,its not easy to get a reply on here these days that actually makes sense and doesnt sound childish,i take your point,though there are a lot of jockeys out there that dont like hitting horses that much,ie timmy murphy,paul carberry,ruby walsh etc,the new rules are silly anyway,because you're allowed hit a horse in a 5f sprint  the same amount of times you're allowed in a 4mile 4 furlong chase,where's the logic in that?

for the benefit of the OP. It will be 'a level playing field' - HTH.

More trainers will send their best horses to race abroad knowing they'll have the maximum drive. We'll be left with the dross.

paul Roy is a baffoon not a leader.

LuckyLucan another man who speaks some sense,Facts just as boring as ever

If our level of prize money doesn't cause more owners to send their horses abroad then nothing else will I wouldn't have thought.

Tony will be exempt as champion

LL.
You are assuming that these 'best ' horses can only win by overuse of the whip. A flawed arguement imo.

OTS - I believe taipan501 has you summed up my friend.

I have never seen anybody more relieved than my friend Miss Whiplash when I told her the ban only applied to horses not to members of The Jockey Club .

It could mean that the lazier horse could end up abroad(either on the racecourse or a plate)

So that could add to the better ones being sold to race abroad because of better prize money.

Cull of courses coming

i think many trainers will see their fortunes rise, while some will get much fewer winners. the likes of jonjo who has a stable full of glorified greyhounds who have no motivation whatsoever wont be able to get the mid race wake up. 3 smacks wont get his horses into a challenging position at the last flight of hurdles.

the likes of paul nicholls horses however who travel strongly will continue to prosper i think, and the 8 smacks throughout the race will be plenty. it would be interesting to see stats on how many times on average over a certain period each trainers horse gets hit. id imagine jonjos would be in excess of twice that of nicholls / hendersons

hes often on the best horse anyway so the rest have no hope now!!

To have a wholesale rule change like this the BHA could have had a couple of trial meetings
just to let everyone in racing (including punters) see exactly the new rule in action


But no lets pander to the minority (bloo dy Towcester have alot to answer for imo)


Yes change it for the better welfare of the animals but it a go in real time.

i also think muckoy had to embrace the changes and be positive about them because if he didnt it would look like he attributes much of his superiority to the way he uses his whip. he will want owners, trainers and punters to consider him superior because of his unique style in the saddle

facts please do not refer to me as you're friend,im an anonymous person on an internet forum,far from a friend of yours,thank god

I think the thing you have to separate between Jonjo, Henderson and Nicholls is that the range of ability of horses is probably spread more between the horses in JonJo's yard and those of Henderson and Nicholls.

I expect out of loyalty and friendship that JonJo still has owners who were with him when he trained up north and would have more runners in claimers and sellers than Henderson and Nicholls and these might be the ones that have their quirks and need the stick. I would also guess that the turnover of horses is greater at Henderson's and Nicholls in that they get rid of more of the lesser lights each season from their yards than JonJo does.

thanks acts!

OTS - its called sarcasm

The guy on RUK (at Kempton with Lydia) said that no punishment in the course of history has ever prevent the commission of crimes.
So by his logic there would still be the use of the whip irrespective of the rules.

There is a fault in his logic.

The whole of a race is on TV. There are millions of people watching the race. A jockey cannot whip a horse during a race without it being seen. Crimes are not generally advertised, people do not generally commit crimes on public television. There will be no getting away with the crime.

1984

I forsee carnage on a scale never seen before. How much uproar will there be when the national is won when a horse is it 12 times and the second only 8?

I also see a gubbing bonanza, plenty of in running opportunities too.

The best horse in the race won't always win..........

Gonna be utter carnage on the first few weeks, you can throw out the previous form of every race prior to the new change. A whip is as much a part of the horsemanship as a cue is to a snooker player. Take it away and it aint the original sport, but a hybrid.

Gonna be carnage, i'm telling ya

deanthorn, they will not be taking the whip away. HTH.

I'm already waiting on the horse transporter contacting me with a date of when he can move my horse to France.
UK racing is dying on it's feet and these new rules might just be enough to end it.

stricter whip rules = more jockeys getting done for whip abuse = more ammo for the animal rights idiots = stricter whip rules.
racing here is in a dowmward spiral owing to bookmakers taking all the money out of the sport and at a time when we need strong action from racing's rulers, they are too busy pandering to the know nothing PC brigade.

The effect of this change may very well create a more favourable image on our screens for the mamby pamby viewing public but the reality is that it will result in even greater pain being inflicted on horses.

Whereas previously jockeys may have delivered a few gentle motivational persuaders we can rest assured that from now on each delivery will be used with full and effective force to ensure that none are wasted.

Believe me, six 'new' strikes will hurt far more than a dozen under the old rules.

It's quite ironic really that the jockey who will go down in history as a man who won the 2011 Grand National will also go down in history as being responsible for the wholesale decline of the British Bloodstock Industry and horse racing performances in general.

Arise, Sir Maguire.

You seem an expert on this, LL....are you Lester Piggott?

You are up early this morning Lucky.Did you wet the bed?

Some interesting points on here (ignoring Snaff needless to say).  By simply disqualifying any horse when the jockey has broken the rules would have allayed many of the fears about where these new whip rules are leading.  Hang your heads BHA, your utter incompetence has only gone and killed the sport once and for all...

My nurse arrived early to get me up this morning. She said she'd prefer to be out in the Sun today rather than shovelling my shy*e.

I told her she shouldn't keep giving me prunes for supper but she said "Shut up old man and get in the bath, your ar*e is filthy."

Getting back to the thread...can a jockey use his hand, rather than a whip to deliver a slap and would that be counted?

Duncan, Sean Boyce wrote an interesting article on the subject some time back in which he suggested that if our horses are not pushed out to their full optimum level via use of the whip then their performances run the risk of being inferior to horses racing in Countries where whipping is not an issue and horses are driven right out.

You need to "get a couple of tears into her", Lucky.
.........................................................
I agree with the poster above,disqualification is the key.

LL, if Sean Boyce really wrote that, what was he smoking?

For a start, how would you know, unless horses from different nations met in a race where each jockey was bound by his own country's whip rules?

And since it is clear that even before the rule change, whips are gentler and used less than in the past, how does Boyce explain new course records? Less watering, perhaps?

Have to laugh at all these 'BHA have killed the sport' merchants....load of fuss about nothing...give it a yr or so and you'll forget they ever made any changes....5 hits in final furlong of Flat race? that's roughly one hit every 6 strides...thought  the horse was supposed to be given time to respond?!

It might affect the lower class stuff a bit more though where horses can be a bit lazier.

Cant see how this stopping prize money and fees can work, expect plenty of "Presents"

But how many hits will be allowed throughout the race, duncan?

I challenge you to select a dozen races and I'm sure you'll see that the vast majority of runners exceeded the new limit just in order to get in the firing line, never mind duelling in the final furlong.

The fittest jocks could have a bigger edge, id imagine a few of them wont want a ride in a 3 1/2 miler on a steed that is bone idle

More PU on the jumps???

Duncan - the BHA have killed the sport - FACT.

Yes, I agree, in a year or so many will have forgotten how 'it used to be' but some of us will remember enough to know that what we are then watching will be a sanitized sport where the competitors are not being seen performing at their optimum level.

It will be akin to athletics having the starting blocks removed or heavyweight boxers wearing head guards or football being played with a leather ball. An inferior product being introduced by an inferior BHA.

the equivalent of old-timers wishing we still had sodden leather caseys and muddy pitches....nothing worse than seeing a knackered old chaser leathered for a mile and a half in the January mud...if a horse cant win with 8 tears, it shouldnt be winning at all....punters in this country have always been obsessed with jockeys lifting one over the line rather than horses getting in a rhythm...changes a great step forward for the sport.

Outpost Joined: 10 Apr 09
Replies: 2012 30 Sep 11 07:01   

I'm already waiting on the horse transporter contacting me with a date of when he can move my horse to France.
UK racing is dying on it's feet and these new rules might just be enough to end it.

Outpost, do you watch French racing? Go slow for most of the race, then ask a horse to quicken in a 2f sprint, irrespective of the race distance. The jockeys there hardly have recourse to the whip, probably meet the new British guidelines already.

duncan

agreed

The opening poster suggests AP wouldn't have as many winners as he obviously beats many horses to death to get them to win.

As Lydia and Dave Yates suggested last night on RUK, this is absolute nonsense, and anyone who believes this shows a poor understanding of McCoy's abilities.

I suspect his superiority over the other jockeys will grow, not diminish, as a result of the changes in whip rules though he won't have much time left to prove it.

had a small bet  on pyracantha yesterday
The reason it won  is easy to explain  ,it was  whipped twenty times over the last two fences ,no  slight here against a brave  young jockey,
he was  riding within the rules .the rules have changed ...good

The next time pyracantha comes up against  a much better horse I for onw will be backing the better Horse .The rule changes will be a great boon to form students  and  more of the better horses will win,this imo is obvious

To imply a poorer horse beats a better horse, purely by use of the whip, is blatant nonsense.

It came too late for poor old Harchibald.


How many results through the years had these been in force would have changed??

Dessie's Gold Cup, Roberto are two off the head, is this the era of the bridle horse??

zilzal, you saying Dessie wouldn't have given everything and run to the line without the whip?
Don't think the new rules would have made any difference to him at all

As for Roberto, pointless whipping (horse never had time to respond) by Piggott didn't prove anything except the jockey's desperation rather than the horse's lack of will to win, and you can't say the result would have been any different if the whip had not been used.




do't know th

Its a hard one all right, but to think that these rules wont affect the outcome of races to come would be sticking your head in the sand, its going to be a awful dilemma for some jocks at the festival esp and also will it affect the way races are actually run in the uk, will we start seeing more french style races with a pedestrian earlier pace?? will strong travellers now have more of an edge?, will it limit more the number of challengers coming to these shores.

We will wait and find out, imo taken unilaterally its not ideal

Jockeys willing to take one for the team could land themselves some nice races, I'm sure plenty would take a hit for a festival winner.

And a year down the line they receive a "Present"

think you definitely right about the race tactics, zilzal, more french style racing with trainers and jocks keen to make sure their horses finish strongly rather than weakening badly - which is generally what they do now anyway.

Mark Johnston's horses may be sufferers as they like to make the running, and probably won't be so inclined to find more if the jock has used his allocation already

Jocks like Richard Hughes could start getting even higher percentage of winners as they are more tactically aware and don't need to use the whip much anyway, so hopeful that not much will change, especially on the flat.

The effect on jumps racing will surely be more considerable, but not sure in what way. There is already in-running carnage at places like Hexham, Towcester etc with long uphill finishes and presumably some horses will literally stop running altogether when the ground gets soft/heavy if a jock has already used his quota?

True Pedro, it could end up with a true run race being a thing of the past in the worse case scenario

And the danger is that the jocks will want these 5 cracks to "Really count"!!

My thoughts, in the heat of battle and when the adrenilin is rushing think we might get jockeys forgetting its only five whips and end up getting banned.

One thing the horse racing authority have not calculated is can a jockey count up to 5 as most of the ones i know can't , unless its money.

pedrobob Joined: 27 Mar 06

Outpost, do you watch French racing? Go slow for most of the race, then ask a horse to quicken in a 2f sprint, irrespective of the race distance. The jockeys there hardly have recourse to the whip, probably meet the new British guidelines already. 


training costs are less than half what they are here (if you don't have your horse trained in Paris) and prize money is 3 or 4 times higher than over here.
most races pay prize money for the first 5 home and if your horse gets a place once a month then your training fees are paid.

also

TRANSPORT

When a horse travels to the races France Galop will partially reimburse transport costs.
PMH race meetings (provincial race meetings) at 0.1275€/km.
PMU race meetings (televised) at 0.255€/km.

RACE ENTRY COSTS

Race entry is free in France (with the exception of flat PMU handicaps and races with a total value of more than 40,000€). The owner is charged a small percentage of the total race value if the horse is taken out at the forfait stage or not declared to run. If the horse runs or is eliminated there are no fees to pay.

JOCKEY'S FEES

In France flat jockeys receive 8.5% of the prize money and owner's premiums if they finish in the first five. If they are not in the first five they are paid 13.57€ for a losing ride (apprentices 7.09€) . The owner also contributes to the jockey's travel costs. However, this cost is divided equally between the owners of the horses that the jockey is riding at the meeting. 

French racing might not be the greatest spectacle in the world but they certainly give owners (and racegoers) value for money.
not really sure how much of a spectacle UK racing will be in years to come if they keep pandering to the PC brigade.

LuckyLucan

Do you have the same nurse as Fraudboy or does he just get fumigated now and again?

interesting info Outpost. Great for the owners, but under €14 for a losing ride??

But seriously I think this could be something like the disqualification of false start runners in athletics.
They'll reverse that in due course but are keeping it going slightly longer so they don't look as stupid as they are.

There is no point us ranting on this forum, or any forum for that matter.
If people feel strongly enough they need to do something.
For those people in the racing towns/cities or where stables are, contact your MP.
Set up a petition.
Do something constructive or else the BHA will just carry on and say the racing public were in agreement (because no-one disagreed). We have these BHA PR concocted comments published in the papers like the cr@p AP is supposed to have said supporting the change of rules with little from the people who really count - the racing public.

Fraudboy and myself are frequently put in the same bath together to save nursing time and costs. It can be a little unpleasant at times.

watching that last 2yo race at Saint Cloud, an 8 horse race over a mile.
The 5th horse, a Fabre debutante, was given 1 smack about 2-3f out.

The winner and 2nd, separated by a sh hd at the finish were each given 2 smacks, 1 in each of the final 2 furlongs.

None of the other 5 jocks used the whip at all.

Fair enough race, don't think anyone had any complaints, and none the less for lack of use of whip

you must have missed the bit that was a diluted, sanitized, pointless and unwatchable mockery of what horse racing should be, pedro.

Comparing a 2yo race over a mile isnt cricket Pedro you often see races over here for juveniles who arent touched.

The Hennessey, King George, Cheltenham and Aintree festivals will see the most difference, NH racing could be changed completely because of it

Aviboyd youre opinion to my contribution on this thread might have some relevance if you ever managed to talk some sense,you vile piece of shít
now,getting back to this thread,do we really think connections of a horse who are  planning a massive gamble are going to abide by these rules?if they've run out of "smacks" on the run in, are they really going to stop and not hit it an extra one or two smacks that will ensure the horse wins and lands the gamble?and be rewarded nicely in time

yes