How good is Aidan O'Brien?

Is he really that much better than most trainers?


The answer is NO

LOL asking gamblers just after one of his fav's gets beaten, you aint going get many positive replies :p

He wouldnt be running the show for his employers if he wasnt!

hes v good but im not sure hes anything special given his ammo!! surely most would have as good a chance of winning what he does with the horses he has!

I'm sure he'll make up to his supporters in the next with his 2nd string Highflying

aidan is very good i think. he gets the horses but so do most flat trainers in the top 30 in gb, albeit most to a lesser scale. he has proved how good he is with the jumpers aswell. loads of uk trainers get nags bought for up to half a mill. bin suroor arguably bets similarly good stock to aidan but is pretty useless. i think theres very few trainers who could achieve what aidan does consistently, and its easy to forget how good he is because hes got 3 huge owners and diverts all credit to "the team" when he wins big races and tells everyone that hes very privilaged to be in the position hes in. put watchman in aidans position and coolmores biggest income would come from the glue factory

He's a brilliant trainer but then there are plenty of other trainers who could do what he does with the same quality of horse he gets given. Having said that, they don't just pull a man off the street and ask them to train their horses and he would have had to have shown something early on for them to offer him the job to begin with when you consider that much of his early success was with jumpers.

The scatter gun approach is basically due to an embarrassment of riches in that he really doesn't know which of them are the best until they reach the racecourse or occasionally when none of them are stand outs and so he runs them all to see which one comes out on top.

Years ago before the breeding operation really took off he would have a single runner in races or maybe 2 at most and they very often would win or be 1st and placed and when you think that a horse like Hawk Wing was good enough to win a 2,000 Guineas most years but was beaten by a stable companion, or that he didn't truly stay the Derby distance but was still 12L clear of the 3rd but 2L 2nd when outstayed again by a stable companion, in another year we could have been talking about Hawk Wing as an exceptional horse.

hes got a good lot of staff at his yard some real good unsung horsemen there believe me

I'm sure he has but then so would a lot of other trainers nowhere near as successful as him so the quality of horse is probably the biggest deciding factor.

Nowhere near as good as his dad Vincent, but knows the time day, imo

of day*

I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?...The Dad part I mean.

Sorry, his Grandad

has to be!

I believe he gets the very best out of his horses, and the performances of this horses are by and large consistent. Year after year he achieves in UK & Ireland. His achilles heel is lack of consistency internationally.

carry on lads sorry couldn't resist.

As with jockeys -impossible to tell. There can be no   objective comparative measure.
All people (can )do is make assertions ( invariably based on a positive or negative bias ) or offer subjective impressions.

well said Vubiant.

short memories, as usual, on here - when he was a young NH trainer he was setting records all the time - Istabraq not that long ago was it ?

I'm not so sure his international runners are any more inconsistent than his UK and Irish ones as some win and some don't.

If you look at his international winners they included:

Canada - Canadian International (x2)

France - French 2,000 Guineas (x3), a French 1,000 Guineas, an Arc, the Ganay (x2), the Morny (x3), Marcel Boussac (x2) as well as various other 2YO and staying races over the years from horses like Mount Nelson, Jan Vermeer, Roderic O'Connor, Second Empire, Ciro, Rock of Gibraltar, Hold That Tiger, Oratorio, Horatio Nelson, Holy Roman Emperor, Giant's Causeway, Scorpion and Yeats.

Italy - Gran Criterium (x2) and a Gran Premio.

US - Arlington Million (x2), Breeders' Cup Juvenile, Breeders' Cup Marathon and Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf (x2) a Man o'War, a Secretariat (x2) and a Turf Mile at Kentucky (x2) too.

LOL...some win and some don't both UK/Ireland and internationally I mean, otherwise some win some don't is the very definition of inconsistent.

good post imamazed - people forget he didn't just walk into a host of blue blooded flat racers, jumping was where he made his name and got noticed

There doesn't seem to have been much comment regarding the fact he is, when all is said and done, just a member of staff, dancing to the tune of the pipers and whomever pays for the tune

AOB is DEFINITELY VERY TALENTED... but It surely cannot be THAT easy with hundreds of horses to keep your eyes on them all and be absolutely aware of where they're at in their development... especially when he is having to protect a breeding operation's reputation and that of its stars and potential/future stars ...

I may be cynical, but increasingly I fear the latter is the driving force, and pure revenue generation, and not the very best possible for each (or as many as possible) of the inmates there...

CASE IN POINT - I simply CANNOT BELIEVE it was Aiden's idea to use Cape Blanco as a pace maker at Ascot... and he freely admits sending the lad over to the US (where he has every chance of being US turf horse of the year) was an afterthought...

Buying SYT, buying Canford, buying Excelebration... Coolmore has ceased to be about nurturing of talent and more about cornering the market, eliminating opposition, simply making money

IF COOLMORE ARE SO RUDDY GOOD... how did they let Frankel slip through the net?!!  THAT year, I'm told, Coolmore had first choice/s of the offspring of the reciprocal arrangement between Khalid Abdullah's Mares and Coolmore's sires... and they missed him!!!!!!!  NEXT year it was PKA's choice and he sent Kind again and kept Noble Mission... previously he sent Kind to Saddlers Wells and they begat the slightly disappointing Bullet Train (STILL hope he comes good) - perhaps that was part of the master plan but I doubt it (just being provocative)

NO... AOB does a vg job in difficult circumstances and it's not HIM I blame...

I wonder if he ever thinks about life back in the quiet lane again, fifty horses, time to give them 24hr a day attention...

Listen... Listen... LISTEN...

DOn't get me wrong... he gets on my teets in other ways... but "Underperforming" is not one of them

True he is only a paid member of staff but they would **** their jocks if he ever left.
The man is a 24/7 365 day workaholic who has to be bet onto the plane to take a holiday when the season is over. Remember his only vice is that place and imo thats what makes him different to others not only that his wife is bloody worse.
Dont be fooled by its up to the boss innocent act either, he has a fair call the proof of that is a lad that hasnt even lost his claim is their number one jockey. Kinane never fell out with the owners Spencer was muck so i wont use him as an example but either did he.
Anyone who has worked there will tell you get on the wrong side of either the wife or him doesnt matter who you are in with youre a goner!

Ye just by giving someone the best bred horses always equals success. Ever heard of seead bin suroor?

I agree about JOB - nice lad, can ride (kind of - stick him on a hurdler he'll be ok!)... But using him in GROUP races when he cannot claim and is clearly not as strong/clever/experienced as other is illogical...

The power to the throne and behind the throne is the wife they always say, but I'm sure that is correct in this case also - wish she'd stop that silly tweeting

I'd be intrigued to hear Kinane and Murtagh on the subject one day

Nothing personal though - wish him luck... just cannot stand the business tactics of his masters!

its not obrien its his wife who runs the shower like a puppet master

The best in the world.

He has the best facilities and horses. This = good trainer.

He has the best facilities and horses. This = good trainer.

He has the best facilities and horses. This = good trainer.

He has the best facilities and horses. This = good trainer.

He has the best facilities and horses. This = good trainer.

Cheers Orchardist for your comment above.

In fairness to Coolmore they've hung on to a lot more good ones than they've let go and not all blue bloods turn out to be top class and not all horses are particularly striking as yearlings but can still go on to better things once they start racing.

I'm sure Anne-Marie O'Brien has an input but it's going way too far to say she runs things and the likes of John Magnier won't let anyone dictate to him. Joseph O'Brien is a Gr1 classic winning jockey and also showed in the big sales race at Doncaster that he knows what to do. He's previously been on pacemakers and 3rd or 4th strings and they wouldn't let him near the better ones until he had gone some way to proving that he is capable.

He apparently rides out St Nicholas Abbey at home and wouldn't have got the ride in the KG but for Ryan Moore being on Workforce and the horse was beaten the other day with Soumillon on it anyway. Others have tried and failed on Seville and Jospeh O'Brien is the only jockey to have won on him and he isn't a blood and guts powerful finish type rider and is more about rhythm and keeping them going, so maybe they thought it was worth giving him another go in the longer distance of the Leger.

he's a very good trainer....simply not THAT much better than several other's we all know and admire...imo

his daddy truly WAS that much better than others!

Vincent wasnt his dad. maybe your fishing...

Frankelstein what have you got against their 'business tactics'. Surely the whole operation wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for their business know-how?

@ ima_mazed66

Listen Listen LIIISSTENNN...

The lad's a foook sight better rider than I'll ever be, but just because he's sat on a horse that won a grade 1 does not make him a grade one jock!!!  I don't know what the inhouse politics with Seamie or Murtagh is/was... but he is NOT as good, nor as strong, nor as experienced...

He needs to go into the gym, he needs to look at his posture (I have an inkling the weight's too far back and riding longer or further forward or SOMETHING might help that) imho he has to find a way of whipping without losing rhythm/momentum... DON'T get me wrong - he is better than both the Hills boys put together, but b'JAYYYYZOOOOZ that's not saying much and he cld start by watching videos of Murtagh, Kinane and Julie KRONE!

Case in point http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLKkyHxGXMU  I'd much prefer to see a 2yr old filly winning without having half as hard a race or half as many cracks

He's by no means the worst, but is not the best available, NOR, inmho, the best in the yard... it's AOB's business, but it does smell a bit

[img]http://community.cdnbf.net/community.betfair.com/user/frankelstein/b5a4...

Joe O Brien has already stated that his future is over the jumps
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/seville-a-p-obrien-j-p-obrien-obrien-looks-to-future-over-jumps/912561/

harch, to be fair joseph was riding in a group one and was riding prominently so i wouldnt have any problem with how many times he hit the horse. if hes coming from behind its easy to see if the horse is going to win snugly but not from where he was, just behind the leader.

its debatable whether or not he deserves group one rides, possibly not given what seamie and colm are capable of and their experience etc, but any father in the position of aidan would do the same.

ive seen him give mediocre rides but hes a 3lb claimer lets remember, and i think hes one of the best and most polished 3lb claimers ive seen on the flat. its likely to be because of his experience on top notch horses, but its irrelevant how his ability to ride came about. i think he gets criticised more than he should because people think he shouldnt get the rides he does.

if he was joseph murphy and rode handicappers for a living he be raved about and people would be talking about him as a future champion jock, and saying he deserves way more opportunities. thats what i think anyhow

Fantastic Trainer.....even better Father.

However he does speak some nonesense and his non-commital to everything re:media is disappointing.

He should go back Jumps Training IMO...to give Joey a few nice one's to start him off[;)]

id say what he says on camera is not up to him[:(]

Ted Caine was a better placer of horses.NAP[;)]

Even still Reve....anything basic would be grand.

I remember they asked him who would win the Hurling one year and he spouted the usually stuff. Awful depressing. Magnier at least speaks his mind when he speaks.

Rubyisgod who the fook are you talking about,his father ffs?

rofl wouldnt be hard to be better would it.[smiley:crazy][smiley:crazy]

a father to his kids[;)]....

I vote him for Dad of the Year!.

He couldn't possibly thank anyone other than himself...that would be amusing

interesting thread lads, all the angles covered, he is very good imo, but there is no definitive anwser. I'd have him along with Oxx, Cecil, Stoute, Gosden and Cumani( for peaking them, if he ever got a really good string, I'd say he'd be winning Gr 1's all over the world, has great vision and planning), they're the Premier trainers imo, nothing original but i think it stands.

I think Lyons is the man who could possibly move forward in Ireland, places his horses very well, but might want to improve on his demeanor in public, of the UK set, i think botti is extremely shrewd and has perfected the art early of giving nothing away in interviews.

im sure excelebrations former owner would agree with you re marco being shrewd. what a buy!

still part owners are they not?

Lyons poos to often in his own nest.AOB cannot hold a candle to the others mentioned,Stevie Wonder could have done at least as well as him.imvho of course.

Yeah great commercial breeding prospect Exceed and excell and that, yeah really good miler, I hope Goldi wins another in America though 8/1 is tempting, surely they won't be silly enough to take on Frankel again, it is the ideas that they might go left field and go Dirt mile for breeding reasons that puts me off more than anything, especially if they hear goldi is going well. Great buy indeed, but I listened to his interview on ATR the other day, on for the guts of 10 minutes, and said absolutely nothing, a gift in itself, I think he might be a future Godolphin trainer one day myself, or a Niarchos of something, when the money is down they're usually close enough, best indicator in many ways at this stage for what seems a relatively straight stable.

or*

5 pints takena nd too bollixed for town

excelebration all the way goldi has no chance[:x]

Reve is blinded again.imvho[:p][:p]

Blasphemy to the night crew, forgive him

leave it out fellas, shes regressive, hes very talented and progressive! with the exception, he has only been beaten twice and by 2 horses, frankel and zoffany. goldi isnt getting younger, and 8/1 excel is a steal

with the exception of his first maiden that is...

I tend to agree you know

LOL[;)][smiley:crazy]

neill, agreeing with me could get you in trouble you know

Tutti pazzi,tutti stupido,tutti arabiatao per che Goldi e numero uno.[;)]

she was, but she hasnt had to race an excelebration before[:(]

I won't be backing up the oppinion tbh, the fact he's 8/1 in itself is worrying imo, who wants to be the hoss to deny her another BC mile, goodwill n that, she has basically made the race some way fashionable all on her own imo and when she is gone, I think a lot of good Gr1 European horses will start targeting it.

Still a goer for Friday reve?[;)]

Why 8's if he was going, just wondering, does someone know something?, if not Ascot where, absolutely no point taking on Frankel agin, only prizemoney, surely coolmore want prestige Gr 1's, but then why is he 8's, if something looks too good to be true, it often is.

change of plan gt, il keep you informed. neill, im not sure that preserving/enhancing goldis legacy is a top priority for coolmore[:(]

Cheers reve,appreciated.

BTW Goldi does not need help in the US,bring them on and she will break them.nap[;)]

Yes probably not, but the 8/1 looks suspicious to me, maybe they want SYT to have a go on her or something[smiley:crazy]

i dunno, surely worth a few quid anyhow! bookies dont always get it right!

The only way SYT would get near her rear would be in the breeding shed and that is not an option.nap[;)]

Goldi is a LADY btw,not some old slapper on the way down the Bois De B.

Give her some respect you sons of bitches,figlia di putana bastardi before i come and break some skulls.

HTH [;)]

i hope you hold her in such high regard when shes beaten

We'll revisit this I'm sure, it is the best evenings racing of the year for me, always enjoy it, suppose it will be ona little earlier this time though.

Questions have always been asked, like here nearly 12 years ago.

Same old bollox
Horse stays and won on suitable ground
How it a great training performance? (Dog **** race run at track that suitable for (bootsale )
Pep wins everything with city
Got the money and everything in place
Let’s see go Luton town for 4 years see how he gets on ffs

The best there has ever been in my book, he gets inside a horse's head.

Interesting to see how he would do in a run of the mill yard with a small budget instead of vomit inducing sums..

Like pep taking over an average football team without a bottomless pit of confetti….

A young Cecil,Stoute,Dunlop,Hern and Walwyn with a few past top northern trainers would certainly produce the same….fact !   Ffs

Anybody that thinks this guy is not a genius is clueless imho.

FORMOFTHEACE, agree yes just look on the trainers back then, you can include, vincent  a young cumani, harwood, b hills even c brittain, the competition was awesome, now to be honest weve got gosden v obrien, with the occassional good horse in godolphin,   and all those great horses from dancing brave, el gran, shergar, user friendly, commanche run,salsabil,generous,nashwan were all in different stables,   these top horses now are mainly all coolmore,

Jun 4, 2023 -- 9:36AM, acey deucy wrote:

Anybody that thinks this guy is not a genius is clueless imho.

FWIW this is also my opinion.

Genius is a strong word banded like confetti ffs

Genius??? Not a chance! A very good salaried trainer of the best bred horses in the world. The man who created the whole thing Vincent O`Brien would have to be much nearer to the Genius title! I cant remember Lester Piggott being on the wrong one of the four or five Derby runners that Vincent O`brien had in each Epsom Derby,,, oh wait it was because Vincent normally only ran one and he KNEW which was the best. was no guess work or throw em all in and HOPE one will win....thats not Genius!!!

Father forgive them.

On a tangent, amazing how two Classic winners this season both had disasters in their previous races.
Bl99dy brilliant how Aidan's first thought immediately post-race was about the chap, ill in hospital, who had helped out in a small ( but important ) way the day Galileo won his Derby.  That is genius in itself as far as I am concerned.

Acey - I totally disagree with your views about Aidan...but there are many knowledgeable aficionados
whose opinions I believe are nonsense, so I guess you won't be losing much sleep over this post

I like Jim McGrath (Ch4) and respect his views but there have been many occasions when I have been
convinced he's talking absolute shít though I still appreciate them...because he's entitled to his
well-qualified views - each to their own as they say.


I don't know how many times I've seen a rag of Aidan's win a group one and I've safely predicted that
the form will NEVER be replicated - and I've been proven correct 95%+ of the time!
He plays bingo with so many and it's a case of having enough ammo, as something will invariably hit
the target, which is a scenario we've seen many times.

He's got a rap-sheet for not having a clue which 3yo is gonna win a big race - obviously Serpentine
was a total aberration but even worse was Homecoming Queen a decade ago who bewilderingly píssed up
in the Guineas by 10 lengths after racing 11 times as a juvenile and moderately at that!
That was an embarrassment to the sport.

For all his record-breaking exploits, I don't think Aidan can be considered greater than many top
trainers over the years who've proved time & again that they know how to handle & campaign a high
class horse.

He's definitely no better than Cecil, Vincent, Stoute, Gosden, Oxx, Weld, Bolger, Hern et al but
most certainly superior to another nice guy but over-rated trainer who's been spoiled rotten in having
a tremendously wealthy & enthusiastic patron...Saeed - it's impossible not to rattle up the big races
with the best ammunition - even 'Always Lying' used to get it right sometimes.
How Saeed campaigned the top class Sulamani was amateur to say the least!

I'd go as far to say that if a perceived average trainer (with experience of listed horses) took charge
of a few of his group class 'rejects' then they'd do just as well.

I remember joking with my mate BEFORE last year's Dante that Stoute has ONE dart with Desert Crown
(not that I thought he was a likely Derby winner, but I was intrigued by the flood of money in the
preceding week) and I said let's see how that fares...compared to Aidan's two dozen blue-bloods.
We know the rest - I know who I'd prefer to entrust my thoroughbred with if I had one.

we will never know really ... but off subject slightly , the training performance of the derby was the second horse .

I'm not putting the boot in on Aidan as he's without doubt a really good egg as a person but I do have a few
misgivings as he never tells you anything except that a horse is well and all the 'tremendous speed' jive.

He said yesterday that Auguste Rodin was by the best daughter of Galileo (Rhododendron) which is absolute
bollox as I'd rate Found & Minding much superior, but I suppose he never stops selling the brand does he?

And I'll never be able to let go of that July Cup plums he constantly churned out for a decade about his 10/12f
brigade every season before someone most likely 'had a word' with him as it was becoming an embarrassment.

Galileo...the one with the 6f speed apparently (not the Cheltenham winner) drops back to 10f and he's fairly
& squarely outpointed by Fantastic Light after having ráped that opponent a month or so earlier over 12f.
I'd like to hear an explanation for that as they were set fair for a duel up the straight, so there were no
excuses to my eye for the supposed speedster, even though the media were unanimously thought he was unlucky.

and none of it as good as saeed bin suroor with lammtarra in 1995

WK - agreed mate. I actually backed two of the last 3 in the betting
(King Of Steel & Adelaide River) 80/1 & 50/1 with 365 as they went
4 places - I did get a bit excited

I read some positive words from Varian (not known for his hyperbole)
a couple of weeks ago and I thought it was worth a few quid and as
we've seen...Aidan's 6th strings can often be worth a second glance.

WK - a definite doff of the cap for Saeed then with that excellent colt

I remember Lammtarra with great fondness.  I made a lot of money from his 3yo career.
One of the wacky stories of racing as his first trainer was shot dead in his stable .

I threw a grenade of a post into the forum with that critique of Aidan and I'm very
surprised that nearly three days later there's no response as there was plenty of
shrapnel to sift through and disagree with.

I saw another thread about the forum being a morgue and that the proper enthusiasts
aren't on here anymore - what's happened?

I see a few names on here that DO know their stuff so should I assume that everyone's
in agreement with all that I said? Has Acey now seen the light?