frankel VS BLACK CAVIAR- next yr

I WOULD AVOID CRICKET BANTER AT THE MOMENT IF I WERE YOU.

HORSE/SP     AGE     WGT     TRAINER/JOCKEY     OR     TS     RPR     

«    
1
7         Black Caviar (AUS) 2/11F     5     9-2      Peter G Moody     —     *     *     »
br f Bel Esprit (AUS) - Helsinge (AUS) (Desert Sun)     Luke Nolen
     
Always prominent, eased to front inside final 2f, quickened clear approaching final furlong, comfortably
    

«    
2
1     3     Crystal Lily (AUS) 70/1     4     7-12      Mathew Ellerton & Simon Zahra     —     *     *     »
b f Stratum (AUS) - Crystal Snip (AUS) (Snippets)     Stephen Baster

Yes - we were crap at cricket for a few years - your point being?

why's that?

you're beating an asian country who thrive in dry humid sandy conditions whom are playing in an english summer where every test match has an element of doubt about it due to rain

haha

ASHES,WHERE ARE THEY?

ON A STICKY WICKET HERE MATE.

err that's the way this cricket thing works old bean, again - your point is?

We've gone from a half decent horse racing debate to discussing dishwater played by fat lazy bastards   

we'll get them back, our worst period is when we lose the ashes, it took you idiots a decade and a half to get them back

hayden it was never a half decent horse racing discussion, it was full of biased comments with complete disregard to what the mare has achieved

LET HIM HAVE THE LAST WORD,WILL BE THE ONLY THING AN AUSSIE ACHIEVES THIS YEAR.

God - the Ashss thing really does hurt doesn't it?

doesn't hurt me, I got sick of watching us dominate every test series, I enjoy a good game of cricket which lasts 5 days

that 5-0 wipewash was the most boring summer of my life

HAYDEN is correct

I would just like to say you are all a....................NO, MOVE ALONG.[;)]

if it doesn't hurt then will you kindly shut up as this is the racing forum - there's a good chap.

The most boring summer of your life,you do surprise me,i thought that would have been that year you did community service cleaning up kangaroo sh**

back on topic

here's our next big thing, we just produce them like it's nothing over here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xsTgQxMwyc

educeee


Yes apologies mate , was comparing to Cricket though don't forget which makes watching Noel Edmonds seem half decent 

2005 was the year makybe diva won her 3rd melbourne cup, that was rather exciting I must say

Brilliant, the Grand National on the flat.WHOOPEE.

got any tips for this 30k race at goodwood?

hahahaha how do they survive

Look lads, she is clearly a great horse, but it stands to reason that the best of ours is better than the best of yours.

First tier racing countries: Ireland, Britain, France and America

Second tier: Dubai, Japan, Hong Kong, Australia

Third Tier: South Africa, Singapore, Canada

Just they way it is, we have the stallions and hundreds and hundreds of years of prestige, its in the blood, ye get the Coolmore second raters, and if they turn out to be any good for ye, we just take them back. We sell ye listed horses, we take the pick of what ye have whenever ye want and invite ye up for the sprinting which noone gives a fcuk at up here. real horses stay a mile.

Funny thing, noone is even disputing that Frankel would actually beat her at any distance above 6 furlongs which means he is definitely the more versatile/better horse whatever happens in a hypothetical 6 furlong race.

Btw I'm not british I'm just telling the truth, australian racing has only even become relevant globally in the last 10 years

Makybe Diva was a british bred reject

every half decent oz horse has euro breeding

hay list has no euro breeding, he'd smack your sprinters up and down ascot 3 times over

what would be our best sprinters are campaigned at the classic distance of a mile, I've said it a million times

Absolutely correct neill d

Our sprinters are effectively second raters deemed not good enough for the classics, why is \Dream Ahead sprinting, because he failed epically over a mile at Ascot is why, sprinting in Europe is not for top notchers so it is unfair to compare

AUSSIES HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO ACCEPT THEIR PLACE IN THE WORLD,SMALL COUNTRY SYNDROME.

that caps lock button makes you the bigger man

EDUCEEE,JUST THANK GOD YOU ARE NOT A KIWI.

neill d . spot on, Frankel is clearly the fastest horse in the world, just so happens if you want to win a classic then you are forced to campaign like a miler, and once you stay that distance there is little point in coming back to sprinting unless you are not up to the standard over a mile, hence Dream Ahead, hence Frankel.But even the suggestion that Frankel wouldn't beat Dream Ahead over 6f is laughable, as it the suggestion he wouldn't beat Black Caviar

yeah clearly the fastest horse in the world, he beat canford cliffs

yep it's clear

BYE BYE.[;)]

if you look at official rating or timeform ratings Dream Ahead was about a stone clear of his opposition in the July Cup, despite the fact he needed binoculars to see Frankels ar$e, the milers are different quality than the sprinters who can still beat Star Witness ok

LOL Educee - Hay list's sire is statue of liberty who raced for Aiden o'brien you tw@t

Point proven - if we didnt send our second rate stallions to shag your second rate mares youd just be trotting

im sorry manchester but your complete arrogance is laughable if u think black caviar would have no chance against frankel over 6.

she wouldve beat dream ahead giving him weight on the bridle aon a line through star witness and imo frankel would find this v dificult to do!

star witness is 3rd rate where I come from, you guys can't accept the sprinting distance is dominated by australia so you draw the conclusion that if a horse can't stay a mile it's an irrelevant horse

statue of liberty is an american bred horse

EDUCEEE,YOU HAVE THE SPRINTERS WE WILL TAKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

come take the melbourne cup then

he was trained in ireland and raced in england.

if you still say hes american then Makybe Diva is 100% english!

ilikewavingatbuses tbh i am not happy coming across as arrogant, i know i can be a moany ar$e wipe sometimes but arrogance is not something i don't want to be associated with so i will tone it down.

I do find it amusing that when a brit talks up frankel as being better than black caviar then they are simply stating facts, but when an aussie says bc might beat frankel then they are being patriotic. Granted there are probably more over the top aussie than brits, it's still amusing.

As for aussie racing somehow being on a second tier, i'm not sure how that's relevant. For even if it is true, which I do believe it is, it is not relevant in races less than a mile imo, or at the very least not relevant to races less than 7f. And since that's what is in discussion here it's an odd thing to mention.

Melbourne cup,glorified handicap.

heheh its ok! i just cant see how anyone would just write off an unbeaten mere who wins sprints by several lengths, often eased down giving colts weight no chance against a very fast but a horse who is ultimately bred for distances of a mile and up thats all!

i would be interested to see bookies price  that match race up!

moudre will win the melbourne cup for 2011, you heard it here first

1/5 frankel

MUG

Quite clearly you have been shown up as the mug.[;)]

qipco should put up a million quid and set up a match over 6f somewhere , would be the highlight of the year

defo!

whoever put the money up would get ity back on publicity across the world alone

Like the prince needs the money.

yeah but surely the prince is  a sportsman he knows we can't have 2 best horses in the world, he if he watches the commentaries from the Aussie races and hears them hailing her as the best horse in the world every time she wins, it must surely make him want to put them straight.

man it's gonna suck for you guys when black caviar beats frankel on the bridle with her cruising speed

He wont drop his horse to 6 to suit others,he will do whats best for the horse and if he says Frankel is better than Dancing Brave i dont think getting the better of an Aussie sprinter is going to bother him much,do you.

Sir Henry would never want Frankel to be associated as a sprinter.

When someone suggested july cup he laughed in their face and said not a chance in hell.

The horse is crying out for 10f anyway so this thread is pointless apart from the aussie bashing which makes it worthwhile

EDUCEEE, showing yourself up now.

either black caviar will beat frankel, or so you think will

either way, it's an aussie domination incoming for your superhero

Do a match race in Dubai under lights, couple of million dollars, get Porsche and Ferrari or Lambo and Aston Martin to sponsor one each, some crap like that, have a bunch of Arabs burning $100 notes smoking big cigars, Betfair to sponsor the race, ill take a 2% fee on the action, sounds good.

Lets get it on.

Dream on force,aint gonna happen.

Let's face the facts, UK racing is second rate, small fields the need for pace makers **** prize money and all they are interested in is breeding and lets not mention that pitiful excuse for a jockey Moore,some of our female jockeys would ride rings around him.
Frankel beat one good size field and the rest were just match races, he has had 8 races and not even 4yo and they want to retire him to stud.

you may have better bred horses but i can say for sure Aussies horses have more heart and they are a thrill to watch, better than your 2 horse and a pace maker races.

ahh he speaks logic, finally someone here with half a brain and knows how to read horse racing

obvious youve just signed in on your other username educee

havent you got to get up for school soon?

be quiet you little termite

Australian racing is no doubt excellent, not as boring as US racing better over all quality than UK racing , all in all a very good nation for racing, but even though UK racing is mostly cack at the moment we have a great horse in Frankel, i strongly believe he would beat any horse in the last 30 years i've been watching at any distance from 6f to 1m, the speed he has is incredible, i can't entertain comments like Black Caviar would have too much cruising speed for him, i have never seen a horse with the cruising speed of Frankel, game is about opinions thats the beauty of it.

THE LITTLE AUSSIE TERMITE BRIGADE HAS TURNED UP,TIME TO EXIT I THINK,WE MIGHT CATCH SOMETHING.

I suggest you load up youtube and watch a few of her wins down the straight, everytime Frankel wins he's being belted by the whip, everytime Black Caviar wins, she's being ridden on the bridle

don't use my word you muggymcgee

Beating nothing thats why,we had loads of your type on here yesterday bigging up Canford,still licking their wounds now.

EDUCEEE OWNS A WORD EVERYONE,TOTALLY MISSED THE IRONY,ARE YOU SURE YOU ARENT A YANK.

beating nothing? beating star witness who placed both times at ascot

not just beating, thumping.. closest star witness got to black caviar was 4L

muggymcgee

I know a little ginger poof army deserter who has just been given permission to enter and STAY in australia,good luck.

ah so you're travelling to australia then

But Star Witneess is 3rd grade so what kind of yardstick is that? oh and even though he was, ahem, 3rd grade, he was still going to whup ass over here according to most of you lot......

Take your silly billabong language and clear off and have a wa*k over your BC POSTER.

now that would of been embarassing, star witness beating your best at your most prestigious horse racing course, it is ALL about prestige right, it can't be about anything else because there's nothing else on offer at ascot except for some terrible rides and some pacemaker failure tactics

i'm more a hay list fan but I come to learn rather quickly who the superior horse is and it's a mare

This is my prediction,

At the current rate of reply this thread has the potential to be the longest ever load of complete dribble on Betfair not resulting in a conclusion of anything other than the education system is lacking in both countries.

Fan of a horse that keeps getting stuffed,says it all.

Be even longer with an even worse class of drivel if you stay on FORCE.[;)]

educee - how many times does it have to be said - everybody accepts that Aussie sprinters are superior to (the vast majority) of ours. Nobody is arguing that BC isn't probaby vastly superior to any other sprinter alive so you really don't have to keep banging on old dear. She obvsiusly needs to beat a few international yardsticks at some point as beating the same old horses time after time proves sod all other than she is better than those horses.
The actual debate is pretty pointless as has been pointed out many times it is very very unlikely that Frankel will be seen over any sprint distances - more chance of turning up in the 2012 Breeders Cup Classic tbh........

I'm sure a special 7f match race could be arranged for the two imo.

That would be a fair distance. Her stamina will be comprimised over a mile and his speed wont be as good as her's over 6.

Our sprinters are effectively second raters deemed not good enough for the classics, why is \Dream Ahead sprinting, because he failed epically over a mile at Ascot is why, sprinting in Europe is not for top notchers so it is unfair to compare

It needs to be reiterated, we do not focus on sprinting in Europe, what would be our best sprinters, run at a mile, how can ye not realise this.[smiley:crazy]

1968

Sir Ivor

Lester Piggott

Vincent O'Brien

Raymond Guest

1:39.26



1969

Right Tack

Geoff Lewis

John Sutcliffe, Jr.

Jim Brown

1:41.65



1970

Nijinsky

Lester Piggott

Vincent O'Brien

Charles Engelhard

1:41.54



1971

Brigadier Gerard

Joe Mercer

Dick Hern

Jean Hislop

1:39.20



1972

High Top

Willie Carson

Bernard van Cutsem

Sir Jules Thorn

1:40.82



1973

Mon Fils

Frankie Durr

Richard Hannon

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1:42.97



1974

Nonoalco

Yves Saint-Martin

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1975

Bolkonski

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Henry Cecil

Carlo d'Alessio

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Wollow

Gianfranco Dettori

Henry Cecil

Carlo d'Alessio

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1977

Nebbiolo

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Roland Gardens

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Tap on Wood

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Known Fact [a]

Willie Carson

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To-Agori-Mou

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1982

Zino

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François Boutin

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1983

Lomond

Pat Eddery

Vincent O'Brien

Robert Sangster

1:43.87



1984

El Gran Senor

Pat Eddery

Vincent O'Brien

Robert Sangster

1:37.41



1985

Shadeed

Lester Piggott

Michael Stoute

Maktoum Al Maktoum

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1986

Dancing Brave

Greville Starkey

Guy Harwood

Khalid Abdullah

1:40.00



1987

Don't Forget Me

Willie Carson

Richard Hannon

James Horgan

1:36.74



1988

Doyoun

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HH Aga Khan IV

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Nashwan

Willie Carson

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Hamdan Al Maktoum

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Tirol

Michael Kinane

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Mystiko

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Lester Piggott

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Robert Sangster

1:38.37



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Zafonic

Pat Eddery

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Khalid Abdullah

1:35.32



1994

Mister Baileys

Jason Weaver

Mark Johnston

G. R. Bailey Ltd

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Pennekamp

Thierry Jarnet

André Fabre

Sheikh Mohammed

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Mark of Esteem

Frankie Dettori

Saeed bin Suroor

Godolphin

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Entrepreneur

Michael Kinane

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Tabor / Magnier

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King of Kings

Michael Kinane

Aidan O'Brien

Magnier / Tabor

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Island Sands

Frankie Dettori

Saeed bin Suroor

Godolphin

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King's Best

Kieren Fallon

Sir Michael Stoute

Saeed Suhail

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Golan

Kieren Fallon

Sir Michael Stoute

Lord Weinstock

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2002

Rock of Gibraltar

Johnny Murtagh

Aidan O'Brien

Ferguson / Magnier

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2003

Refuse to Bend

Pat Smullen

Dermot Weld

Moyglare Stud Farm

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Haafhd

Richard Hills

Barry Hills

Hamdan Al Maktoum

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2005

Footstepsinthesand

Kieren Fallon

Aidan O'Brien

Tabor / Magnier

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George Washington

Kieren Fallon

Aidan O'Brien

Magnier / Tabor / Smith

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Cockney Rebel

Olivier Peslier

Geoff Huffer

Phil Cunningham

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Henrythenavigator

Johnny Murtagh

Aidan O'Brien

Sue Magnier

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Sea the Stars

Michael Kinane

John Oxx

Christopher Tsui

1:35.88



2010

Makfi

Christophe Lemaire

Mikel Delzangles

Mathieu Offenstadt

1:36.35



2011

Frankel

Tom Queally

Henry Cecil

Khalid Abdullah

1:37.30

I'say there would be some bloody good sprinters in there lads

i still cant understand what the fuss over a horse who was flogged to the line winning easily in a slowly run sit and sprint compares to a mare just as good, eased/ on the bridal to the line as far out as a furlong running sectionals never done with ease before.

up to 7f she wins...at the mile he wins simple

SOOTY GIVE UP FFS.

I will be honest here and say it is hard to compare our best with your best as the races are run differently the training is different the tracks are different and the tactics are different.

As has been proven in the past a hit and run assault on races from different part of the world is a hard task to do, this is the main reason that any trainer wanting to win the Melbourne cup from Europe would send there horses a few months in advance  of the race to prepare for the event with some leadup races.

This is the same reason we would need to do the same with your races, including distance events.

You tell me this, if a horse that is regarded as a champion loses a few races is it less of a champion, i think not, you look at all the best horses in the would and at times they have lost a race.

Sure Frankel and Black Caviar are both unbeaten with 8 and 13 wins but if they race long enough i am sure they would lose a couple races.

We are not as focused on breeding in this country and more on racing.

If these 2 raced against each other 10 times would Frankel win all 10 i think only a fool would say yes to that and the same could be said about BC

If they ever meet he would have to beat her by a big margin a few times before i would make an opinion, if they are really wanting to prove he is the woulds best send him down under for a few month, but we know that won't happen as we always have to send our best to you to be proven.

I like you max, you're funny

TRANSPARENT,HOW MANY USER NAMES DO YOU HAVE.[;)][;)][;)]

I got one, is that ok mate?

IVE SEEN THAT POST BEFORE.

maxcady..gave up on you a loooong time ago, still envious are you? [:o]
go tell someone who cares about your opinion,you dribble way too much  [;)]

Black Caviar is unbeaten in 13 starts, all stakes races which is a world record undefeated run from first start.
she's run 6 130+ races on the bridal.
so please tell me how the fark a horse who has run 3 130+ runs and ridden right out in each is in the view of some a superior racehorse?
ohhh i forgot his racing in england against 3-4 horses.

hello, he ran only a 125 at his 2nd last run.

but you all forget, he is a great 3 yr old, not a great older horse. until he competes against the older horses with the same weight and beats them, not with a 10lb advantage he has now, he will be just that, a great 3 yr old, yes a champion 3yr old

BC is without question the worlds best sprinter. Frankel the best 7/8 possibly 10f horse. I would doubt them 2 ever meeting as I can see them both probably retiring unbeaten. Best place for them to meet is in the breeding shack lol.

P.s all you guys forming opinions on this thread are deluded. Your basing your arguments on lines of form through 2 or 3 horses, racing over different distances, in a different climate on different soil. Its impossible to say wtf would happen, just accept the showdown will never happen.

"Best place for them to meet is in the breeding shack lol."

We may well be arguing about Fravier and Blankel in three or so years time.[;)]

What would happen if BC was ever put under pressure for a sustained period? From what I've seen of her races she has never been pressured for anything more than about 1/2 furlong. Send her to the states and she how she handles being hemmed in by half the field for as long as they can manage! There are obv bridal bunnies in Aus and i'm not saying she is that, but I'd like to see here put under pressure and see how she comes out of it before i pass judgement on if she is an all time great. Fwiw i personally think Frankel has a little to prove before he can be called as such as well - just in case CC wasn't right (unlikely) and against a few other horses.

Gday players

My opinion, for what its worth is that over 6f BC would win, and
over 8f Frankel would win. 7f too short for Frankel, so probably wont
happen. 8f BC mightnt even attempt that distance, so the match race
we would like to see might not occur.