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My first post, so sorry if it makes me look like an eejut - but have been following the B and B forum for some time and I must say I find it very illuminating.
Just wanted to ask how much importance breeders place (especially when using stallions without any runners yet) on the issue of soundness and wind operations: if a stallion has had an injury during (or even at the end of) his racing career, or has had an operation for wind, does this pre-dispose his stock to having an increased chance of related problems, and would this steer you away from a particular horse? By the same token, I presume it would be a positive part of the decision-making process if the stallion was known to have 'retired sound in wind and limb' (as old advertisments used to say). Leading on from that, do bloodstock agents or other yearling buyers have reservations about sales yearlings (or even foals) by sires who are known to have had any problems like this - indeed, how do you actually know if a stallion has had any such problem in his racing career before going to stud?
Sorry to ask so many questions but this is the one place where I know I can ask and receive a sensible answer from people who may have had to evaluate these issues as part of their business or hobby - can't find any other guidance on the subject anywhere!
Just wanted to ask how much importance breeders place (especially when using stallions without any runners yet) on the issue of soundness and wind operations: if a stallion has had an injury during (or even at the end of) his racing career, or has had an operation for wind, does this pre-dispose his stock to having an increased chance of related problems, and would this steer you away from a particular horse? By the same token, I presume it would be a positive part of the decision-making process if the stallion was known to have 'retired sound in wind and limb' (as old advertisments used to say). Leading on from that, do bloodstock agents or other yearling buyers have reservations about sales yearlings (or even foals) by sires who are known to have had any problems like this - indeed, how do you actually know if a stallion has had any such problem in his racing career before going to stud?
Sorry to ask so many questions but this is the one place where I know I can ask and receive a sensible answer from people who may have had to evaluate these issues as part of their business or hobby - can't find any other guidance on the subject anywhere!
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I'm no expert whatsoever but if a prospective Stallion was defective in any of the above, it would count against him as I'm guessing all of these physical traits can be passed on to offspring
Very good questions and not easy to answer. I can give you my own views which are contrarian to most breeders prevailing wisdom. For starters, I would never use a first season stallion, never mind a first season stallion that has had a history of wind or limb unsoundness. Unsound stallions, in general are inclined to pass their faults on to their progeny. Some breeders tend to overlook the obvious faults and are taken in by hype, marketing and the commerciality of the stallion. Wind unsoundness is never publicised by stallion owners and generally only comes to light when their progeny fail wind tests at the sales. There are lots of stallions who are wind unsound but incredibly they are still patronised by breeders, I know the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association publish a list of stallions who show NO evidence of wind unsoundness. To be included on the list stallion owners need to send an appropriate Vets Cert to the I.T.B.A. If you wish to use a stallion that is not included on the list, thread carefully.
A clued in Bloodstock Agent( I wouldn’t have any time for agents) should know the traits and or problems of a first season stallion. The world of bloodstock breeding is like a small village and nothing is missed. Research will provide the answers to finding out whether a stallion had any problems during his racing career. I have often rang his trainer, who on most occasions will give you an honest opinion. I always check his race record. See if there are any long gaps between races, read the race reports. His last run sometimes tells a tale. Hope that helps.
A clued in Bloodstock Agent( I wouldn’t have any time for agents) should know the traits and or problems of a first season stallion. The world of bloodstock breeding is like a small village and nothing is missed. Research will provide the answers to finding out whether a stallion had any problems during his racing career. I have often rang his trainer, who on most occasions will give you an honest opinion. I always check his race record. See if there are any long gaps between races, read the race reports. His last run sometimes tells a tale. Hope that helps.
This is an issue that should have more attention paid to it,but we live in an age where marketing hype and commercialism cloud the judgement when we select stallions.An example that springs to mind is One Cool Cat,who had well publicised heart problems yet breeders flocked to him,I'm sure the same thing will happen with Rip Van Winkle when he retires next year, we will all forget his poor soft feet them won't we? You could argue we should take a lead from the Germans,but some may slip through the net, we would not of had Fairy King,and after all where would we all be without Danzig?
You always want to use sound stock if you can,but saying that as another example take for instance Baltic King super sound and very fast by a great sire known for speed,"sound as a bell of brass"some would say yet he has never covered large books,compare to Footstepsinthesand ran only 3 times (broke down) unsound and fragile yet breeders line up to use him,why do we do it, if soundness is of such high importance?
Plenty of good runners have some form of problems, remember Sixties Icon great pedigree classic winner but a wind problem.Some trainers will tie back a horse or Hobday them to see if it helps them,I have one mare who was tied back by her former trainer to see if she would stay further,she did not,but when you read her page in racehorses it points out made a noise,but NONE of her foals have ALL are crystal clear in wind and ALL have won,so I always take a more overall view with that.But I won't be rushing to use Sixties Icon
Some stallions seem to be regarded as great sires despite getting fragile or unsound stock,just look at my old friend Rainbow Quest,gone down in history as a good stallion and great B'mare sire...........what some don't seem to see is just how unsound a lot of his stock are I always steer well clear of him, as runners and tough ones we want not weak fragile lovely 5y'olds
As with everything in horse breeding, it is easy to have ideals but not always so easy to put those ideals in to practice.When you are breeding commercially this can be especially hard.But I always maintain that I am trying to breed RACEhorses, not stable pets that cannot run.
You always want to use sound stock if you can,but saying that as another example take for instance Baltic King super sound and very fast by a great sire known for speed,"sound as a bell of brass"some would say yet he has never covered large books,compare to Footstepsinthesand ran only 3 times (broke down) unsound and fragile yet breeders line up to use him,why do we do it, if soundness is of such high importance?
Plenty of good runners have some form of problems, remember Sixties Icon great pedigree classic winner but a wind problem.Some trainers will tie back a horse or Hobday them to see if it helps them,I have one mare who was tied back by her former trainer to see if she would stay further,she did not,but when you read her page in racehorses it points out made a noise,but NONE of her foals have ALL are crystal clear in wind and ALL have won,so I always take a more overall view with that.But I won't be rushing to use Sixties Icon
Some stallions seem to be regarded as great sires despite getting fragile or unsound stock,just look at my old friend Rainbow Quest,gone down in history as a good stallion and great B'mare sire...........what some don't seem to see is just how unsound a lot of his stock are I always steer well clear of him, as runners and tough ones we want not weak fragile lovely 5y'olds
As with everything in horse breeding, it is easy to have ideals but not always so easy to put those ideals in to practice.When you are breeding commercially this can be especially hard.But I always maintain that I am trying to breed RACEhorses, not stable pets that cannot run.
I am a bit wind paranoid myself.
However, only a few mares and an out in the sticks location means I'm not always privvy to the interesting gossip so I've not always got the iside track.
I remember a good few years ago taking a Polar Falcon filly foal to the sales and being most surprised when people turned up with their scopes and sucking of teeth. She was fine and lucrative if you are interested, indeed so lucrative I was glad my ignorance let me use the horse!
There are PLENTY of horses who have made it with wind questions and indeed if any horse stays in training long enough there will often be a deterioration in it's breathing performance.
I feel that it is another consideration in what is an endlessly fascinating/taxing game.
And new is always sexy - frequently sexy enough for people to take a chance on anything!
However, only a few mares and an out in the sticks location means I'm not always privvy to the interesting gossip so I've not always got the iside track.
I remember a good few years ago taking a Polar Falcon filly foal to the sales and being most surprised when people turned up with their scopes and sucking of teeth. She was fine and lucrative if you are interested, indeed so lucrative I was glad my ignorance let me use the horse!
There are PLENTY of horses who have made it with wind questions and indeed if any horse stays in training long enough there will often be a deterioration in it's breathing performance.
I feel that it is another consideration in what is an endlessly fascinating/taxing game.
And new is always sexy - frequently sexy enough for people to take a chance on anything!
Just thinking back a few years ago we sold a colt at NMKT who failed his wind test (we knew) Richard Hannon later bought the horse,he was hobdayed and went on to win many races at 2/3/4 years later he was sold for a fortune to go abroad as a stallion.
I agree with what others have said that we should place more emphasis on soundness (which is why we are needing to use German horses to bring this back into our stock). I was shocked to see how many mares One Cool Cat and Footstepsinthesand received given there well publicise problems - and I agree that it is suicide to take a risk on a first season stallion.
Having said all that - genetics is a strange thing - and one stallion that makes the discussion interesting is the incredibly successful Sir Tristram who stood in the Southern Hemisphere. He was so unsound that I don't think he ever raced (or only raced a few times at most). Had a terrible set of hocks - but was bred in the purple being be Sir Ivor from a fantastic female family and one of the big studs in NZ gave him a go. He produced his share of unsound horses but no more than other stallions and, in fact many of his offspring raced many times and into old age. Horses like Zabeel etc. So sometimes a horse can be unsound himself but not produce that and, vice versa.
The ideal would be to reduce your risk by going to stallions sound themselves from a family known for soundness but I find it astonishing how many unsound horses Coolmore, for example seem to rush off to stud. Maybe I am being unfair to single them out but they seem, on the surface to not place a high regard for soundness in the stallions they stand.
Having said all that - genetics is a strange thing - and one stallion that makes the discussion interesting is the incredibly successful Sir Tristram who stood in the Southern Hemisphere. He was so unsound that I don't think he ever raced (or only raced a few times at most). Had a terrible set of hocks - but was bred in the purple being be Sir Ivor from a fantastic female family and one of the big studs in NZ gave him a go. He produced his share of unsound horses but no more than other stallions and, in fact many of his offspring raced many times and into old age. Horses like Zabeel etc. So sometimes a horse can be unsound himself but not produce that and, vice versa.
The ideal would be to reduce your risk by going to stallions sound themselves from a family known for soundness but I find it astonishing how many unsound horses Coolmore, for example seem to rush off to stud. Maybe I am being unfair to single them out but they seem, on the surface to not place a high regard for soundness in the stallions they stand.
No I take it back - my NZ friend has just reminded me that Sir Tristram did race over here - trained by Clive Brittain - but he still had bad hocks! and re: the other thread about Cockney Rebel - had a very sour and vicious temperament.
what is known about one cool cat problems ?I have colt foal and heard nothing about problems ?
FOAL loks fantastic ,can I GET him checked for something ?
FOAL loks fantastic ,can I GET him checked for something ?
There is a story that One Cool Cat suffered from heart problems,that was the reason given as to why he was beaten in the 2000,personally I don't believe that, I think it was a smoke screen put up by his connections as a lame excuse for him not forfilling the promise that was hoped for,what you may be interested to know is a lot of trainers don't like his stock as they can be hot and some have said that they can upset the whole string,he is dead in the water now as a commercial stallion if he ever was as by and large they were a moderate bunch,hope you got him at a very good price deals were very much to be had with him,they got rid of him for the reasons above.
ONE COOL CAT looks set for retirement after Aidan O'Brien Aidan P. O'Brien, is an Irish horse racing trainer. He is the private trainer for John Magnier and his associates at Coolmore Stud and heads up the training operation at Ballydoyle Stables in County Tipperary. revealed yesterday that the colt was diagnosed with a new heart problem after his flop in Saturday's International StakesThe International Stakes is a Group 1 flat horse race in the United Kingdom for three-year-old and above thoroughbreds. It is run over a distance of 1 mile 2 furlongs and 88 yards (2,092 metres) at York Racecourse during the Ebor Festival meeting in August.
The colt was a star two-year-old, winning both the Phoenix StakesThe Phoenix Stakes is a Group 1 flat horse race in the Republic of Ireland for two-year-old thoroughbred colts and fillies. It is run over a distance of 6 furlongs (1,207 metres) at the Curragh in August.
The race was originally run at Phoenix Park Racecourse in Dublin.
..... Click the link for more information. and the National Stakes, but he was found to be suffering from an irregular heartbeat after finishing last but one when favourite on his reappearance in the 2,000 Guineas.
O'Brien said yesterday: 'Maire O'Connor [the Turf Club vet] examined him after the race and said that his heart was only beating 80 to the minute when it should have been 120 to the minute.
'I'd thought that everything was all right, but there is obviously some problem there that we can't put our finger on.
'Beforehand I thought that there was no three-year-old alive that could beat him. His work was so special it was unbelievable, and he was so quick he would never come off the bridle.
The Storm Cat colt is owned by Michael Tabor and John Magnier, at whose Coolmore Stud he will almost certainly stand.
Magnier, asked if the horse had run his last race, said: 'You would never say never and it will be Aidan's call whether he races again. But you wouldn't go running in a marathon if there was something wrong, and there is something wrong.
'He was a good horse at one time and you would have to be certain that he was all right again if he was to run. I know Aidan was taken aback yesterday, but horses are like that.'
The colt was a star two-year-old, winning both the Phoenix StakesThe Phoenix Stakes is a Group 1 flat horse race in the Republic of Ireland for two-year-old thoroughbred colts and fillies. It is run over a distance of 6 furlongs (1,207 metres) at the Curragh in August.
The race was originally run at Phoenix Park Racecourse in Dublin.
..... Click the link for more information. and the National Stakes, but he was found to be suffering from an irregular heartbeat after finishing last but one when favourite on his reappearance in the 2,000 Guineas.
O'Brien said yesterday: 'Maire O'Connor [the Turf Club vet] examined him after the race and said that his heart was only beating 80 to the minute when it should have been 120 to the minute.
'I'd thought that everything was all right, but there is obviously some problem there that we can't put our finger on.
'Beforehand I thought that there was no three-year-old alive that could beat him.
His work was so special it was unbelievable, and he was so quick he would never come off the bridle. The Storm Cat colt is owned by Michael Tabor and John Magnier, at whose Coolmore Stud he will almost certainly stand.
Magnier, asked if the horse had run his last race, said: 'You would never say never and it will be Aidan's call whether he races again. But you wouldn't go running in a marathon if there was something wrong, and there is something wrong.
'He was a good horse at one time and you would have to be certain that he was all right again if he was to run. I know Aidan was taken aback yesterday, but horses are like that.'
A question re: Shamardal - I was/am very wary of using him because when he was a yearling he was diagnosed with Wobbler's Syndrome which is a potentially life threatening spinal disorder. I was pretty astonished that he even went to stud to be honest - this condition exists in dogs and the breeders are advised to not use any dog in the line where this has manifested.
But he has gone to stud - served lots of mares and is an undeniable success. But I don't think I would ever take a chance on him. This is a condition where diligence is required to eradicate it from the gene pool and yet we are using him to a very large number of mares. He compounded my wariness by then breaking down after all 4 starts by fracturing his fetlock.
I wonder if anyone knows whether he has reproduced this syndrome at all?
But he has gone to stud - served lots of mares and is an undeniable success. But I don't think I would ever take a chance on him. This is a condition where diligence is required to eradicate it from the gene pool and yet we are using him to a very large number of mares. He compounded my wariness by then breaking down after all 4 starts by fracturing his fetlock.
I wonder if anyone knows whether he has reproduced this syndrome at all?
I have just read my post its 'Fulfilling' not as I have put forfilling,
never can spell as some of you know!
never can spell as some of you know!
Sorry noticed a typo re: Sharmadal - started 7 times not 4
It was well publicised about his problems but i and many others flocked to him and have reaped the benefits so far. haven't heard anything about any of his progeny suffering any problems hopefully i wont either
Some information about Shamardal; In November 2002, his breeders put him up for sale at the Keeneland Sales but when the bidding failed to meet their reserve price they decided to wait until the following year to auction him again. In early 2003, the yearling began to exhibit a subtle lack of coordination and an abnormal clumsiness in his gaits. He was soon diagnosed with a Grade 3 level of Cervical Vertebral Malformation Syndrome, a spinal disorder commonly referred to by horsemen as the "wobbles." The disease means the horse will likely never race and usually results in them having to be euthanized because their condition can cause them to collapse without warning that could result in severe injury to a handler. Shipped to specialists at Ohio State University, x-rays and a myelogram confirmed the condition. As such, his breeder/owners filed an insurance claim and turned ownership over to the insurance company where the colt became a standard case for euthanasia.
Richard Ketch, a former show horse trainer and farrier, became involved with the case as an adjuster for the insurers. As someone very familiar with the disease, he believed that there were alterative treatments that might save the colt's life. On Ketch's initiative, an agreement was reached with the insurance company to turn the colt over to him and his associate Herwig Schoen, a self-proclaimed "energy healer." Some call their treatment program "voodoo medicine," pointing out that research has shown that in about ten percent of these cases within twelve to fifteen months a horse will recover on its own. Nonetheless, under Ketch and his associates the colt made a full recovery.
Certified sound by multiple professionals, Richard Ketch sent him to the October 2002 Tattersalls Houghton Yearling Sale at Newmarket in England where Sheikh Mohammed's Gainsborough Stud, acquired the colt they would name Shamardal. However, the string of bad luck continued as he was sold for the very small price of 50,000 guineas after an endoscopic test of his breathing passages had erroneously diagnosed him as have breathing problems.
Richard Ketch, a former show horse trainer and farrier, became involved with the case as an adjuster for the insurers. As someone very familiar with the disease, he believed that there were alterative treatments that might save the colt's life. On Ketch's initiative, an agreement was reached with the insurance company to turn the colt over to him and his associate Herwig Schoen, a self-proclaimed "energy healer." Some call their treatment program "voodoo medicine," pointing out that research has shown that in about ten percent of these cases within twelve to fifteen months a horse will recover on its own. Nonetheless, under Ketch and his associates the colt made a full recovery.
Certified sound by multiple professionals, Richard Ketch sent him to the October 2002 Tattersalls Houghton Yearling Sale at Newmarket in England where Sheikh Mohammed's Gainsborough Stud, acquired the colt they would name Shamardal. However, the string of bad luck continued as he was sold for the very small price of 50,000 guineas after an endoscopic test of his breathing passages had erroneously diagnosed him as have breathing problems.
A nice little documerntary on youtube about SIR TRISTRAM with this link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsrV8v0jMpU If that link doesnt work just search fo Sir Tristram on youtube.
It is interesting - with dogs like Great Danes wobbler's is known to be genetic but the jury is out re: whether it is genetic in horses. Maybe I am being unfair to him but if you see a horse with this staggering about it does break your heart. Particularly if you have to put one down because of it. Maybe it won't become a problem until people start inbreeding to him - I don't know.
Anabaa was a wobbler, too, wasn't he; and it didn't seem to affect his record at stud, did it?
Many thanks for all the helpful responses you've kindly put here - much appreciated. It is all a peculiar business, isn't it? One of the things I quite like doing is thinking of how somebody with no bloodstock or racing (or even horse) knowledge would react on discovering how people involved in this business make decisions. With first season sires, for example: a lot of people are taking one hell of a punt on a stallion who is probably 80% likely to be not as good as everyone hopes. If we were in the business of making computers, say, imagine if we said: "OK, we're going to use these new processor chips in our new range of computers. They sound pretty good and the advertising makes them look really cool, but unfortunately we cannot test them and we have no way of knowing whether they are actually any good or up to the job. But let's give them a whirl, anyway. Let's put them into the marketplace and hope they turn out OK." In the eyes of a non-bloodstock person, that's exactly what breeders are doing in using so many unproven horses.
Then again: if you are a breeder, and considering which stallion to use for a particular mare, if you put a line through every stallion who is unproven, or might have had soundness or wind issues, all those who are too pricey, and all those who are geographically no good (ie in America), and those who are just plain rubbish, it can cut your options down no end, can't it? And that's before even thinking about pedigree suitability, conformation etc... Who'd breed horses for a living or for fun?!
Many thanks for all the helpful responses you've kindly put here - much appreciated. It is all a peculiar business, isn't it? One of the things I quite like doing is thinking of how somebody with no bloodstock or racing (or even horse) knowledge would react on discovering how people involved in this business make decisions. With first season sires, for example: a lot of people are taking one hell of a punt on a stallion who is probably 80% likely to be not as good as everyone hopes. If we were in the business of making computers, say, imagine if we said: "OK, we're going to use these new processor chips in our new range of computers. They sound pretty good and the advertising makes them look really cool, but unfortunately we cannot test them and we have no way of knowing whether they are actually any good or up to the job. But let's give them a whirl, anyway. Let's put them into the marketplace and hope they turn out OK." In the eyes of a non-bloodstock person, that's exactly what breeders are doing in using so many unproven horses.
Then again: if you are a breeder, and considering which stallion to use for a particular mare, if you put a line through every stallion who is unproven, or might have had soundness or wind issues, all those who are too pricey, and all those who are geographically no good (ie in America), and those who are just plain rubbish, it can cut your options down no end, can't it? And that's before even thinking about pedigree suitability, conformation etc... Who'd breed horses for a living or for fun?!
e14, I love your computer chip analogy - it does sound particularly mad doesn't it!
However if we are to keep moving forward, and keep improving our 'technology' then we have no choice but to produce the goods before we can test them.
And obviously, the next big thing is only just round the corner (and it's bound to be one I breed !!!
However if we are to keep moving forward, and keep improving our 'technology' then we have no choice but to produce the goods before we can test them.
And obviously, the next big thing is only just round the corner
(and it's bound to be one I breed !!!
Came across this and just thought I'd freshen it up for workrider. A relic from a time when this forum was a little livelier!
Thanks Potentialmillionaire ,surely that must be just MILLIONAIRE by now...
This may be of interest, gents. http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/should-breathing-operations-be-declared...
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