National Disgrace

99.5% is probably true but their criteria for "active customer" is one bet within the specified time period.

half a pint of lager 12 months ago wouldnt make somebody an active drinker, but thats the logic behind the 99.5% stat.

I dont stalk you corbiewood,more like you stalk any thread with a mention of Bookmaker in the title.As for me being seething,it would take more than a jumped up little know it all like you to get me going.

doesnt sound like it, also the evidence that you follow me on this forum is for everybody to see.

inside is permanently seething imo..i bet he's only 5ft tall....

Have a read back through the thread corbiewood and you will realise how much you are disliked on here.I would safely say you are one of the most unpopular formites of recent times.Call me whatever you like,i aint going away until Bookmaker sponsored clowns like you stop posting their bile here.

Another example of how bookmakers can rip off punters without any comment from the racing media.At least when banks or say private car clampers steal from customers.All the media shout about it and try to stop the public being robbed.But the racing media see punters being taken advantage of daily and say nothing.They are a disgrace to their profession.

The big 3 were not paying 1st 5, nor best odds guaranteed in the shops.So the vast majority would have got 1s 4 and SP.

'insideinfo' (surely a joke) - why do you keep telling him he is disliked? you sound like a junior school bully....you might not like what he posts, but something is eating away at you to keep going on like this - what's wrong?

insideinfo 10 Apr 20:42
Have a read back through the thread corbiewood and you will realise how much you are disliked on here.I would safely say you are one of the most unpopular formites of recent times.Call me whatever you like,i aint going away until Bookmaker sponsored clowns like you stop posting their bile here.

so you admit to me that your making it a quest to follow me around this forum after every post? btw you sound truly rattled. on a more pressing note, what does it matter to you on the way you assume im percieved, honestly? Does it give you a twinge or something more sinister.

Your quest should maybe include instead of following me around on a faceless bookmaker / arcade forum spouting out the same tured lines, to actually do something about these bookmaker wrongs - this forum represents 0.01%* of punters so you turning a debate into a militant rally doesnt really count, does it?

Corbie, i dont have a big problem with you as i used to work in the game myself, BUT you do seem to have a bot which generates a reply to virtually every anti bookmaker thread on here :-)

Oh yeah and the the staff that the big three employ are clueless about their product..............

No punter was forced into a shop and held at gunpoint to have a bet, everyone has a choice.

If you dont like what you see go elsewhere until people do then the firms will stand there ground.

I know a lot pf people on here do not like bookmakers for varying reasons, but none of them are breaking the law they are running a business and everyone has a choice to use them or move on.

Anyway im fried (bad joke), im off out have a good one.

zizal, im set to default :^0

fair play, i do go on - but i do feel strongly about things - esp re betfair.

Calm down everyone ......... I say but 2 words

Caveat emptor.

I dont follow you around corbiewood i just feel the need to reply to your endless drivel on all these bookmaker threads.Maybe if you stopped posting on every single one of them your paranoia of me stalking you would ease somewhat.

your post makes no sense.

Im off now so you can have the last word.

Nighty Night.

Just as a footnote, I suspect the bookies paid out quicker than Betfair :o)

Inside the bookmakers on here like corb and Fairfield will do everything they can to try to stop punters telling it how it is.Bookmakers have a budget of millions to keep politicians and the media in their back pocket.It must annoy them no end the truth gets out on here.Corb is a pathetic nark who lies and tries to intimidate punters to shut up.Just keep laughing in his face.Everytime he comes on, he shows what bookmakers really think about punters and what lowlives they are.

One HUNDRED


:)

Got to laugh at some of the comments about the Betfair place markets are worse value than bookies place terms. Only when the favourite is odds on or in 16 runner hcaps is this the case, about 90% of the time Betfair place odds are far superior. It's one of the great Betfair myths.

Toronto, you are showing yourself to be a clueless mug yet again. I am not sticking up for the bookmakers and certainly not the final SP, I am just pointing out that there was plenty of value out there for the punter if they looked.

Read what is written before you revert to type.

can anyone of the bookmakers reps explain how and why it happened, which i haven,t heard one good reason yet so i presume the original poster is correct?

quite easy to explain,the sp is taken from the track using the odds of licensed bookmakers not the unlicensed,untaxed layers on here,the firms put a fortune on it on track to shorten it,its called market forces,i was a bookie there,it was my worse result,wtf its got to do with anyone on here is beyond me,if the mugs on here want to lay 19/1 thats their business,they were obviously wrong,end of. pythia,why dont you get your beloved betfair to buy some pitches and put everything right? and while they are it put a yes man like you on the stool,you can show us all how it is done.

Excellent haul Pythia

its disappointing that Pythia can be so prompt sometimes on certain subjects that interest him and no where to be seen/uncontactable on other important Betfair issues that are highlighted BY HIS CUSTOMERS.

thank you ribero, so it would be a fair comment to say they made the market to suit themselves and not benefit their customer.

yes they do it often,its a free market.

Another step closer to industry sp's....the end is nigh

Gary Wiltshire said it was a terrible result for the bookies?

Pythia you state that 0.05% of active users pay the charge , that is indeed a minority but what % of consistent winners actually pay the charge ? As for pc payers taking their custom elsewhere im sure they would if there was some where else to go . At the moment you have them by the short and curlys , maybe betfair will have a change of heart change when the opposition does turn up . If betfair applied the charge to multiple bets how many would play ? enough said !

laddies backed it 2 win a quarter of a million in the ring thereby saving themselves £x million !

Gary Wiltshire is a**-sucker. How does he have the cheek to wave a voucher at the camera, £500 at 16/1 the winner with Chronicle? Surely arbed for two points profit minimum. To complain about a bad result for bookmakers is disgusting when they bet to 155%.** off Gary.

Fairfield the subject of this thread was once a year punters being ripped off.You really would have to be a bit of a clueless mug, to think that these punters are shopping around for value.The reason the bookmakers cut the SP prices, was to pay these winning punters as little as possible.What Betfair do is nothing to do with it but just a smokescreen by you and corb.

Why would i think you were again taking the bookmakers side.Maybe its because you sound like a walking ad for them.......IE 1st 5 places,best odds guaranteed.refund on fallers refund on non starter.Add to that**ging off Betfair and you would have to be a clueless mug not to see who"s side you bat on and its not the punters!

I'm not sure what is worse - the fact that the bookies returned the worst overound in 20 years - or the fact the bookies reps have got PR stories out there claiming they have done their conkers. Utterly shameless.

Pythia 10 Apr 20:23

coffee, Betfair is a licenced bookmaker and does take risk on its multiples products, using the Betfair SP to detrmine how those bets are settled.

I have made no claims that it is Betfair that determines what the Betfair SPs are and agree it is our customers who set those prices - that, is my point. It is a better system for backers because the layers on here are consistently prepared to return better odds than the conventional bookmakers.

Pythia. Can you state unequivocally that Betfair and/or Betfair psuedo customers (Malta, Betfair matching skimming customer) did not seed the National SP market yesterday to ensure that the overround was reasonable? Thanks

There's some mugs out there mind isn't there?

Good question by bin it.

But a bit of a can of worms being opened here? The layers on here don't have the same overheads so of course they can offer better prices than the bookmakers?

as betfair made almost 350 million on commission,why bother with 0.5% of premium charge so called winners......if it helps with' marketing' must be for peanuts.......get real.......you can bet in all bookies place only thru the tote.....mug it was 5k @16s not £500.

what is the average commission paid by Betfair customers? (I mean per customer, rather than per bet)
My guess would be over 4%, as the customers turning over fortunes on v low percentage would probably distort the average commission paid per bet that you would rather quote.

Does the final Betfair SP overround add on this percentage?

I thought it was calculated at 5% . I certainly assumed that when calculating in a laying contest at BF SP. I assume I had some foundation for that, but can`t remember.

If you look at yesterdays 1:45 Aintree
Betfair SP Overround / Underround: 101%
Industry overround: 114%
There is no way that the Betfair SP Overround includes commission, so how can it be a proper comparison?

Yes you are right stow. Where they DO take 5% into account is the BF SP advantage/disadvantage over industry SP. Look at Najaf in that race where they were at a disadvantage, but 4.8 against 4.9 ain`t 7%.

Bin it, you won't an answer to that question, seems it wasn't only the bookies manipulating the SP's yesterday.

It is an important question. I'm certainly not saying they did do that but it would raise many other questions if it were the case. The GN SP market needed some massive lays to ensure there were no repeat of previous years debacles and, if it were the market that provided those sums, then fair enough.

These Pythia threads are always ill-advised imo. By all means release an official press release, but don't pop up on here unless you are willing to answer the myriad of follow-up questions.

What's the issue with Betfair doing it bin it?

Sounds like they act as a bookmaker on the Multiples anyway?

Bin it, I think even more proof of manipulation was evident within the place market returning an overround of 408% against the usual 500%+ the GN BSP market produces

shock horror pythia appears to be busy again`

...though maybe it's a bit disingenuous to do it for just one race a year... ;-)

A valid thread, but somewhat hypocritical.

Stake & *****considering we have Pythia crowing about the bookies manipulating the SP it's a bit rich they're also doing the same at the expense of their own BSP layers in order for a bit of PR

Agree GJ - see my other post...

My understanding is that multiples uses SP markets, where liquidity untimately comes from other customers. If those SP markets were being seeded, although this is allowed because thay have a bookmaking license, it could have levy implications for them. They may already have levy implications by using the matching (skimming) bot in other markets.

There is also the moral question of legit SP layers laying in good faith to get a decent return but seeing that return almost wiped out if BF were propping up the market.

I only ask this question as BF stated previously (after the Complyor Die win 2 years ago) that they would take "appropriate" action in the GN SP if it were necessary.

I withdrew ALL my money from my BF account about a year ago now because I'm interested in backing high-priced e/w bets only but the prices on here are so pathetically small compared to the major bookies that I gave up using my BF account and only use the website now to access this forum.

If you want to talk about a ripoff, lets hear you start talking about the disgusting 'Premium Charge,' and betfairs abuse of its monopoly position.

You have heard of "Knock out" origionated at BAGS meetings. well this is a reversal "A Knock in" nice stroke, If people have a problem, contact trading standards

toronto44 10 Apr 22:04


Fairfield the subject of this thread was once a year punters being ripped off.You really would have to be a bit of a clueless mug, to think that these punters are shopping around for value.The reason the bookmakers cut the SP prices, was to pay these winning punters as little as possible.What Betfair do is nothing to do with it but just a smokescreen by you and corb.

Why would i think you were again taking the bookmakers side.Maybe its because you sound like a walking ad for them.......IE 1st 5 places,best odds guaranteed.refund on fallers refund on non starter.Add to that**ging off Betfair and you would have to be a clueless mug not to see who"s side you bat on and its not the punters!



Open your eyes you ravin t1t, im not claming otherwise - just have a look @ the dozen or so other posts tking issue with why this thread stinks to highhaven of hypocracy.

I may be blinkered in some respects but you n your wee pal info have complete tunnel vision.

Totally agree with your comment last night, salmon - most once-a-year punters are happy enough to find a winner, but to notice 20/1 in the morning and see 10/1 SP in the most competitive and difficult NH handicap of the year cannot help but leave a sour taste, as I heard several times myself. And from women with pushchairs and others that clearly are not regular punters "trying it on".

I also take your point about meeters and greeters, saddo, which is good, but if you don't know what you don't know you can't ask the right questions about taking a price vs taking SP. From my experience many people are more likely to have been racing rather than placed a bet in a betting shop, and won't know that the shops' default is SP unless you ask otherwise.

May I just ask the btfr employee, Pythia, whether he has an account here, or,
does he bet with bookmakers, or,
does he bet at all?

"betfairs abuse of its monopoly position"

lol - I 't think you need to look up the definition of monopoly.

corbiewod you just go on and on and on and on dont you,dont you have any other purpose in life at such a supposedly young age other than stalking threads here and defending bookmakers.I have no idea who toronto is but he certainly speaks alot more sense than you do.As for the tunnel vision claim,well thats just ridiculous as i have almost as many issues with Betfair as i do the traditional "Bookmakers"

?

Bin It - Betfair do not seed the Betfair SP. As stated in Betfair SP information site, Betfair do hedge multiples liabilities as back bets into the Betfair SP.

http://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/FAQs_multiples.html

Lads, it is a Sunday so some Betfair fans do take time off from perusing the forum and can't get back immediately to every thread.

Regarding Comply or Die case as far as I know, the Betfair SP (in it's first Grand National then) was a victim of it's own success.

If you are a new customer to racing on Betfair you automatically get the racecard view (which you can all click on before the 'radio' icon) which only shows BSP prices. Lots of new customers signed up, as happens at every for the national and most punted on the front four of the market.

As the Betfair SP was so new at the time the layers were obviously cautious as they saw the projected SP dip will below the bookies show and didn't lay all the money that was coming on shortly before the off.

After the race Betfair reconciled any backers of the winner or placed e/w horses to a fair price at Betfair's expense not the layers. Similar to a bookie paying out early, or as some did yesterday refunded on Kings John Castle when they don't have to but did what they deemed the right thing.

I hope this clears it up for people. And Yes I work for Betfair and Yes I'm off to bed because I've to go to work tomorrow ;) I might go in 30 mins late for doing overtime though. I'll have to check my contract.

Leinster........ hope they treat their staff a bit better than most of the other firms...... if so Im sure you wont have any trouble

The bookies love a dig at Betfair.

Oh i nearly forgot

Iris De Blame returned at a Betfair SP of 75.0 (industry SP 66-1) when winning the Coral Scottish Grand National at Ayr and the winner was backed down from 200.0 to 75.0 - with over £5,000 being matched between the prices of 130.0 and 160.0 try getting £5,000 on a 100/1 shot in the bookies.....No chance....unless you can play soccerball

Re. all the nonsense about the place odds being poor on here.I fancied an outsider in the 3m. hurdle at Aintree and was able to bet in the place market for 3 places when there were ONLY 7 runners.If that is not value then what is?Nobody is saying bookmakers should do that,but it proves that the place only book can sometimes be exceptional.

5k at 16/1 still no problem laying off.

Any word how much mc manus apparently won ?

Pythia, obviously once-a-year and casual customers do better with bf but a direct comparison of sp s is not comparing like with like.

Bm s' place terms can be different and rule 4 is usually more generous than the rf.

On big hcap markets where some bookies are offering five and six places, bf shd offer supplementary markets with those place terms.

You wd get a lot of action from arbers in more than one market and from straight backers (and those willing to accommodate them) in the market offering more places.

On the whole, the site and interface works best for technically clued-in traders and layers, only allowing the backer to lose more slowly. If this changed (e.g. through tougher transation pricing) you wd have a stronger claim to argue the corner of the casual backer.

usual exchange afficianado rant. although in my experience the sp returns are somewhat strangely computed, but i doubt the layers on here pay an average 80,000 up front to purchase a pitch at aintree, not do they shoulder 1300 a day to bet, regular off track books pay substantially increased tax and levy rates than a casual layer on here. these facts cannot be disputed. although such factors totally ignored by exchange fans. of course it's understandable because any increase in taxes or expenses for layers on here would of course be resisted. it's not only horses that wear blinkers

Do you think non exchange customers should have to contribute to the levy and tax sportsadvisor. If not, why not? If you think only layers should pay,would betfair rewording " lay A" to "back the field bar A" then exempt those layers or would you be arguing that anyone backing in a 2 outcome event or dutching with bookmakers should also have to pay levy and tax?

Im not really sure where this debate is going. Ask the average person in the street what a 155% overround is, they wont have a clue.

Joe Public will bask in the highlight of backing a winner in the National at 10-1 and bragging to friends and relatives, while others will commisorate in backing Hello Bud each way and it finished 5th or the horse that would not start.

Shops are there purely for people to pop in and have a bet. They are uneducated in the form of betting or gambling and its a once a year social event. Sadly they will get taken advantage of. Their needs are like a shop or supermarket, get served quickly, efficiently and make the process as simple as possible.

There was a lot of very good value I thought knocking about with the firms on Saturday on the net and phones and what to me is evident is that Racing For Change, if serious, need to be educating the public better on the lead-up to Grand National day via the media.

1) When backing the selection, always ask to take the price.
2) Look for the best each way terms, 5 places rather than 4.
3) Look to use the internet rather than visit the shop. If visiting the shop, ask to take the price. Explain best odds guaranteed online..

I didnt see this in any pullout or the Racing Post on Saturday..

Girlfriends' mother had a tenner on Dont Push It at 10-1, made up with £110. Id rather not tell her, I could have backed it for her at 22-1 2 hours earlier online.

i'm an educated man feck, but i don't get the thrust of your arguement. whilst a bankrupt government might accept the notion that 'backing the field' is different from laying a specific horse, as a premise for a potential new tax stream. undoubtedly the politicians envisaged a whole lot more from exchanges, were they to 'explode'. The reality is that they haven't (check out the early market on here right now and it bears witness to a dearth of layers. but the fiscal reality is although punters do fine out of the deal with exchanges, that racing definitively does not. like bookies/hate bookies, it makes no odds, but a bet with an off track bookie is far more valuable to racing than with an exchange. Further, noone has adequately explained why I as a layer have to pay tax and levy twice, if I lay something on here, as is the case.

Never mind the 155% overround.

It's crystal clear that 12 and 14/1 was freely available about the winner at the off.

This is where the real investigation should lie.

My money's on the very revealing names of the short list of bookmakers that the SP reporters now have to take prices off. At the major meetings, have a wild guess who some of them are?

Sportsadvisor - Presumably oncourse bookies pay those sort of fees because they are sure that they'll make much more. Nothing to stop them taking on the exchange players for much less initial outlay of course. Wonder why they don't?

one further point - if i may. as an off course bookie, what I pay tax and levy on is laying horses. there's no debate going on between firms such as mine and customs and excise, or the levy boardas to what layhing means. I cannot argue that laying Kuato star on the phone is the same as backing the others to beat the same, as betfair argues it's customers so to be doing-and therefore they cannot be seen as layers, although effectively they are performing the same function. Betfair appear to have - for the moment, won the debate on tax and levy. I doubt, however,if the European parliament would be so sympathetic to the government on taxation- were it to be challenged

Crazy Schuss 11 Apr 23:18

Any word how much mc manus apparently won ?

The way the market collapsed I'd say he must have scooped about a £100 million ? ;)

mginvest. the on course market functions in a different manner. where the business is good, as at aintree, many of the layers there (not me I'm glad to say) convey most business they accept onto exchanges to create margin, that's to say they are not true bookmakers who would price up a board to figures, invariably accepting risk. Unfortunately, customers suffer at tracks like southwell. there's simply insufficient business to support this conveyer belt system, so this new breed of bookie (arbers in effect, with often poor EW terms) simply don't attend. Customers have few to bet to and a poor service. It's a spiral going nowhere.

Calypso - Can't understand the JP / Jonjo "love-in" after the race. Why are we concerned as to how much he won betting on the race (if anything). He just scooped over half a million for winning the race in prizemoney to add to his countless millions derived from his financial trading. As an ordinary member of the basically skint public at large i'm not into all the well wishing heaped upon the rich and fortunate after such events. AP is different because he risks life and limb for his job and the horses deserves most credit for doing the same. The connections are just very fortunate people living out their lives on mostly easy street (financially speaking of course). GL to em but i'm not gonna give them much more than that.

I always end up putting GN bets on for family & friends & I never use Betfair. On Sat I put all bets on with Victor.
My Mum backed Hello Bud e/w & was made up by being paid out on the 5th and at 40/1. My Dad backed Eric's Charm - faller so got his stake back - again a happy punter.
And to top it off my missus backed KJC and Victor very kindly gave her money back. All these would have been losing bets on here.

Sportsadvisor, betfair is the bookmaker's dumping ground for unprofitable customers. How would it help either the levy or the tax if bookmakers held on to such punters and decreased their gross profits?

Another trend I'm noticing among my friends who only bets a couple of times a year is that they all bet online. So they usually get the best terms without realising it.

They are comfortable buying everyday items online so placing a £10 bet online doesn't phase them.

If I give them any betting advice it's "stay out of the shops" !

Exchanges would have had a devestating effect on levy and tax if they were properly run. They're not though.

Sportsad- I agree it's a downward trend for oncourse bookies especially at the smaller midweek meetings. I'm sure plenty was made in the big race with on course layers hedging on the better prices on here. What's the answer though? The times they are a changing and it looks ever likely that bookies will largely disappear on course except for the big money meetings. The big firms have only themselves to blame though. It was their increasing reluctance to lay a decent bet that led so many to converge here. I wouldn't worry about them though, the machines will save their bacon in their high street chains.

mg ,
i agree fully with what you say there except for the main point.
course books offered dont push it at 20/1 until after 3.00 pm then 16/1 until just before the off. how could we gain by backing back on here at 18/1 [ less commission ]

re beansandgravy the whole point is your gfs mother should have got 130 or 150, her along with 1000,s of others got badly shortchanged. the small books as explained on another thread seemed to have quite a fair book until the "big bookmakers" stepped into the ring forcing smaller layers to shorten. this would be acceptable if there was genuine money for some runners but the fact is over 30 shortened. i view it as very cynical money grabbing operation by the big bookmakers. i am sure if you said this to your gf mother her reply would be "they can,t do that"

lapsy, agree in part

1) As I stated, somewhere in the media, joe public has to be educated to take the price when they put the bet on. I saw nothing of this in the newspapers' pullouts or in the media. They will list horse, jockey, chase starts, colours, every fence etc but not do a simple checklist for a punter going into a shop.

Racing For Change in my opinion should take out a simple ad in every paper on National day with a 3 step checklist for the punter. Number 1, take the price on the selection. Theyre there to educate punters arent they?

That way, gf's mum would have got 20-1, not 10-1 SP for starters..

2) The business of backing on course by the firms has happened longer than i can remember and firms cannot be blamed for hedging. Somewhere in the mix the lengthening of horses has been missed and this has happened on course. I cannot accept really Wilshere's comments "it was carnage in the ring".

3) If one lesson has to be learnt from this, i suppose its an audit trail of how the SP has come about. Can this be accessed by Joe Public? or is it a closed shop that can only be accessed by writing to the SP Commission. Why can it not be accessed via the racing results section in the Post and Sporting Life?

Can somehow the following be listed at off time?
Bookmaker
Board price

and from these, we can see how the SP was calculated?? If so, we could see 10-1 was the general price on course. If its all computerised, it should be fairly simple in this day and age, no??

Sportsadvisor 12 Apr 11:08


one further point - if i may. as an off course bookie, what I pay tax and levy on is laying horses. there's no debate going on between firms such as mine and customs and excise, or the levy boardas to what layhing means. I cannot argue that laying Kuato star on the phone is the same as backing the others to beat the same, as betfair argues it's customers so to be doing-and therefore they cannot be seen as layers, although effectively they are performing the same function. Betfair appear to have - for the moment, won the debate on tax and levy. I doubt, however,if the European parliament would be so sympathetic to the government on taxation- were it to be challenged

exellent post and no doubt will be swept under the carpet by this lot on here.

it's not difficult to understand betfair is an agent

if you go to a dating agency and get your leg over the agency isn't doing the laying

comprendez ?

well fk me

exellent post and no doubt will be swept under the carpet by this lot on here.

It's not an excellent post so why do we need to sweep it under the carpet? What makes you think the EU will take your part because you are unable to compete with betfair the bookmaker's margins? If someone brings out a car that's as good as any car on the market but costs only half as much would you expect the European parliament to make that person pay twice the percentage of tax on their profit per car just because the other car manufacturers are beeling? You gentlemen are bookmakers, NOT layers. Bookmakers are taxed. What do you tell the EP when they ask "well why aren't you just working solely through the exchanges"?

Adge - If you were going 16s just before the off what was everyone else offering to return it at 10s?

Excellent post F ing Idj.... If bookmakers will not compete with Betfair,why should they be protected.Like any business that offers an inferior product,they will die.What they did on sat,ripping off once a year punters.Is another example of their greedy and destructive business strategy.Instead of seeing the potential of trying to get these millions of once a year punters to come back by giving them a fair return..They did what they always do with their customers.Just think about the short term profit to be made and drive them to here or give them no reason to come back. Have no argument with the oncourse bookies posting on here they are for the most part honest and trying to make a living in a difficult market.Cant blame them for taking the ofcourse money to shorten up the SP"s.

If racing (in the sense of a beneficiary of the levy and gpt) wants there to be competition w/ bf for the sake of the customer, it shd get behind a lower takeout toat.

It will always be in the interests of private layers to charge the customer as much as possible for as little as poss. reward.

There is a case for racing want to drive volume at the expense of margins, esp. w/ the popularity of the sport in decline and its share threatened by superior wagering vehicles such as football, American sports etc etc.

But it surely cannot look to the big offcourse layers to help it w/ this.

sportsadvisor, I don't see that there are layers on bf at all.

Bf is a bookie and clients bet w/ it. Where it gets the money from is no one's business, so long as winners are paid out of ringfenced funds.

A system of levy collectors in bed w/ layers to the detriment of punters is not going to do racing's popularity w/ punters any good long-term.

Sportsadvisor 12 Apr 11:08


one further point - if i may. as an off course bookie, what I pay tax and levy on is laying horses. there's no debate going on between firms such as mine and customs and excise, or the levy boardas to what layhing means. I cannot argue that laying Kuato star on the phone is the same as backing the others to beat the same, as betfair argues it's customers so to be doing-and therefore they cannot be seen as layers, although effectively they are performing the same function. Betfair appear to have - for the moment, won the debate on tax and levy. I doubt, however,if the European parliament would be so sympathetic to the government on taxation- were it to be challenged

exellent post and no doubt will be swept under the carpet by this lot on here.

thanks! i would add, many of racing's officials/quangos/committees made or make decisions without properly considering the consequences. a few weeks ago, in an infamous full page ad, betfair claimed to being accepted worldwide, when in fact its only the UK and tasmania who have cracked. other countries adopted wait and see tactics, and must be laughing their socks off at the state of our finances and bookmaking. a bonanza for the punters serves no purpose

feck. the question is too simple apparently for you to understand, or perhaps the real answer is unpalatable. why should a layer on an exchange be treated in a different manner(tax and levy wise) to a bookmaker, also laying the same event?

askari - betfair is a bookie? that has to be a joke. they are the biggest middle men in racing! isn't it the job of the horse to wear blinkers??

mginvest 12 Apr 11:15
Can't understand the JP / Jonjo "love-in" after the race. Why are we concerned as to how much he won betting on the race (if anything). He just scooped over half a million for winning the race in prizemoney to add to his countless millions derived from his financial trading. As an ordinary member of the basically skint public at large i'm not into all the well wishing heaped upon the rich and fortunate after such events. AP is different because he risks life and limb for his job and the horses deserves most credit for doing the same. The connections are just very fortunate people living out their lives on mostly easy street (financially speaking of course). GL to em but i'm not gonna give them much more than that.

To be fair I don't think either were exactly born with a 'silver spoon'. Jonjo did his fair share of risking 'life and limb' before retiring to easy street

feck. the question is too simple apparently for you to understand, or perhaps the real answer is unpalatable

I understand the question perfectly well sportsadvisior. I think it's you that finds the answer unpalatable. This layer' cr@p is nothing more than semantics thought up by people devoid of a real argument. Someone backing a horse is laying the other party a back of the horse to lose.

why should a layer on an exchange be treated in a different manner(tax and levy wise) to a bookmaker, also laying the same event?

Any bookmaker can give up the game and operate through betfair. Ask yourself why you don't and you've answered your own question.