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don't know if it's been mentioned on here already but seems a bit rich for bookmakers who have moved offshore to dodge payments to complain about others.
haven't read the whole article by the way.
just saw the headline on the RP site.
won't pay for the RP site and they hide all racing business news away from folk who won't pay.
(way to attract people to racing)
haven't read the whole article by the way.
just saw the headline on the RP site.
won't pay for the RP site and they hide all racing business news away from folk who won't pay.
(way to attract people to racing)
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Would be interested to read the article if a subscriber would put it on here?
tia
tia
WILLIAM HILL boss Ralph Topping accused the Labour Party on Saturday of going after the wrong target in pledging to tackle bookmakers who avoid paying levy by moving their business offshore.
Minister for Sport Gerry Sutcliffe said he was looking at a number of ways to recover payments, said to be worth £4.5 million to racing, for which bookmakers such as Hills, Ladbrokes, Victor Chandler and Stan James are not liable by locating part or all of their set-ups overseas.
Topping, chief executive of Hills who moved their online operations offshore last year, said the firm already contributed significant sums in levy, and said Betfair should be asked to address the shortfall.
"The main reason for a fall in levy receipts is the migration of horseracing volume to betting exchanges like Betfair who receive extremely favourable tax treatment," he said. "The BHA know that and so do the dogs in the street."
He said Hills needed to move their online business offshore to remain competitive because Sutcliffe and his colleagues have "consistently refused to take appropriate action".
"William Hill derives some 80 per cent of its revenue from its UK business, pays three times more levy than Betfair [£18m-£6m] and the effect of offshoring has had a relatively minimal effect on the levy," he said.
Topping said interestin horseracing was in decline in betting shops, which Betfair had substantially benefited from because of a more favourable taxation model.
"Bookmakers have lobbied government to tackle this issue head on but it has consistently body swerved doing anything about this and the other substantial issue of illegal bookmakers being allowed to run businesses on Betfair.
"The government follows a laissez faire approach to this subject that is unfair on major employers like William Hill with 16,000 employees and individual bookmakers who face a rigorous personal licensing process which those who run businesses on exchanges successfully avoid."
Ladbrokes, who have also moved their online business offshore, said they were not surprised by Labour's statement last week.
"The essential thing is that everyone operates from the same level playing field," said spokesman Ciaran O'Brien.
"If there is a way of finding a way that everyone adheres to the regulations, then fine, but it depends on how the proposals for offshore regulation develop."
Minister for Sport Gerry Sutcliffe said he was looking at a number of ways to recover payments, said to be worth £4.5 million to racing, for which bookmakers such as Hills, Ladbrokes, Victor Chandler and Stan James are not liable by locating part or all of their set-ups overseas.
Topping, chief executive of Hills who moved their online operations offshore last year, said the firm already contributed significant sums in levy, and said Betfair should be asked to address the shortfall.
"The main reason for a fall in levy receipts is the migration of horseracing volume to betting exchanges like Betfair who receive extremely favourable tax treatment," he said. "The BHA know that and so do the dogs in the street."
He said Hills needed to move their online business offshore to remain competitive because Sutcliffe and his colleagues have "consistently refused to take appropriate action".
"William Hill derives some 80 per cent of its revenue from its UK business, pays three times more levy than Betfair [£18m-£6m] and the effect of offshoring has had a relatively minimal effect on the levy," he said.
Topping said interestin horseracing was in decline in betting shops, which Betfair had substantially benefited from because of a more favourable taxation model.
"Bookmakers have lobbied government to tackle this issue head on but it has consistently body swerved doing anything about this and the other substantial issue of illegal bookmakers being allowed to run businesses on Betfair.
"The government follows a laissez faire approach to this subject that is unfair on major employers like William Hill with 16,000 employees and individual bookmakers who face a rigorous personal licensing process which those who run businesses on exchanges successfully avoid."
Ladbrokes, who have also moved their online business offshore, said they were not surprised by Labour's statement last week.
"The essential thing is that everyone operates from the same level playing field," said spokesman Ciaran O'Brien.
"If there is a way of finding a way that everyone adheres to the regulations, then fine, but it depends on how the proposals for offshore regulation develop."
"The essential thing is that everyone operates from the same level playing field," said spokesman Ciaran O'Brien.
That is exactly what happens. Everyone is on a level playing field and betfair the bookmaker pays 10% of their gross profits to the levy just like every other onshore bookmaker. The fact that other bookmakers can't match betfair's odds is their problem. Are H1lls and Badblokes advocating that any bookmaker who works to smaller margins should be charged extra levy? Should bookmakers who pay double result, best odds guaranteed, sp plus, 5 places etc., consequently working to smaller margins, have to pay more than 10% of gross profits in levy?
That is exactly what happens. Everyone is on a level playing field and betfair the bookmaker pays 10% of their gross profits to the levy just like every other onshore bookmaker. The fact that other bookmakers can't match betfair's odds is their problem. Are H1lls and Badblokes advocating that any bookmaker who works to smaller margins should be charged extra levy? Should bookmakers who pay double result, best odds guaranteed, sp plus, 5 places etc., consequently working to smaller margins, have to pay more than 10% of gross profits in levy?
I think this government has been kind enough to Topping and his croanies over the past 10 years or so by letting them have 4 fobts in each of there shops.
He needs to wind his neck in a bit and remember the government could easily take those fobts away.
What a vile and greedy individual he is.
He needs to wind his neck in a bit and remember the government could easily take those fobts away.
What a vile and greedy individual he is.
wait till them tories get. they will be butting a tax on punting here
If Feck N Eejit thinks Betfair are bookmakers he is well named.They are commission agents only.
Surely the volume of betting on here (horse racing) is because the bookies do not want to take a bet in the first place?
Early morning riser correct, i was talking to a insider in goverment,it seems plans in prep!
no vote may be more of a message too the capitalist pigs that run the world?
same gerry sutcliffe who claimed £400 a month for food..£4800 a year...when he should only have claimed for the 150 odd days a year they work away from home.....lol.
cheers, thisforumisFINNISH.
Betfair contribute quite a sizeable chunk of voluntary levy, I seem to remember.
Betfair contribute quite a sizeable chunk of voluntary levy, I seem to remember.
[i]roychristie1 11 Apr 11:34
If Feck N Eejit thinks Betfair are bookmakers he is well named.They are commission agents only.[/i
If you think bookmakers are bookmakers you should change your first name to Agatha.
If Feck N Eejit thinks Betfair are bookmakers he is well named.They are commission agents only.[/i
If you think bookmakers are bookmakers you should change your first name to Agatha.
luslen 11 Apr 11:31
I think this government has been kind enough to Topping and his croanies over the past 10 years or so by letting them have 4 fobts in each of there shops.
He needs to wind his neck in a bit and remember the government could easily take those fobts away.
What a vile and greedy individual he is.
his company are doing a lovely offer at the moment.
have a £10 bet on usually a choice of 4 races a day and if you selection is a loser you get a free £5 machine credit.
YES....A £5 ROCK OF CRACK
vermin.
I think this government has been kind enough to Topping and his croanies over the past 10 years or so by letting them have 4 fobts in each of there shops.
He needs to wind his neck in a bit and remember the government could easily take those fobts away.
What a vile and greedy individual he is.
his company are doing a lovely offer at the moment.
have a £10 bet on usually a choice of 4 races a day and if you selection is a loser you get a free £5 machine credit.
YES....A £5 ROCK OF CRACK
vermin.
is that different to betfair offering £20 to play their own fobt's on-line casino?
no different at all but...
i'd like to think betfair customers are the next step up the food chain then a crackhead with no teeth who frequent highstreet bookmakers.
just like handing out a crackpipe.
i'd like to think betfair customers are the next step up the food chain then a crackhead with no teeth who frequent highstreet bookmakers.
just like handing out a crackpipe.
the amount of people i see outside begging for money then flying back in the shops to stick it on virtual racing and machines is unreal
big ralph loves these sorts of punters, "free cup of tea sir?" ****
big ralph loves these sorts of punters, "free cup of tea sir?" ****
drunks coming home midnight, feeding credit cards into casino games
sharp minds.
sharp minds.
Yeah the Bookmakers were really caring about racing yesterday when they created a 155% book on the biggest race of the year
yoyo - pi55 off nauze.
bookies p0nce if ive ever seen one.
bookies p0nce if ive ever seen one.
Paulie Gualtieri 11 Apr 11:45
luslen 11 Apr 11:31
I think this government has been kind enough to Topping and his croanies over the past 10 years or so by letting them have 4 fobts in each of there shops.
He needs to wind his neck in a bit and remember the government could easily take those fobts away.
What a vile and greedy individual he is.
his company are doing a lovely offer at the moment.
have a £10 bet on usually a choice of 4 races a day and if you selection is a loser you get a free £5 machine credit.
YES....A £5 ROCK OF CRACK
vermin.
Not a truer post made....
As for the reason betting on horse racing has declined is not just betfair, it's the also the fact they can stick 4 FOBT is the corner they dont need any customer service and are a guaranteed winner for them..they neglect horse racing...
maybe they should try showing replays of horse racing in shops instead of showing virtual rubbish
luslen 11 Apr 11:31
I think this government has been kind enough to Topping and his croanies over the past 10 years or so by letting them have 4 fobts in each of there shops.
He needs to wind his neck in a bit and remember the government could easily take those fobts away.
What a vile and greedy individual he is.
his company are doing a lovely offer at the moment.
have a £10 bet on usually a choice of 4 races a day and if you selection is a loser you get a free £5 machine credit.
YES....A £5 ROCK OF CRACK
vermin.
Not a truer post made....
As for the reason betting on horse racing has declined is not just betfair, it's the also the fact they can stick 4 FOBT is the corner they dont need any customer service and are a guaranteed winner for them..they neglect horse racing...
maybe they should try showing replays of horse racing in shops instead of showing virtual rubbish
showing replays helps the punters for the future hence SIS under instructions not 2 show them whenever possible (allegedly).
tbf to yoyo he made valid points re bf, imo
tbf to yoyo he made valid points re bf, imo
Labour is poised to announce a crackdown on offshore bookmakers.
The party aims to close the loophole allowing companies registered overseas to avoid contributing 10% of their gross profits to the horseracing Levy.
The new measures would force offshore bookies to provide millions of pounds to help shore up the racing industry and tackle corruption in the sport.
The Tories called the Levy "outdated", while the Lib Dems said Labour had failed to get to grips with the issue.
Labour's pledge is timed to coincide with Saturday's Grand National at Aintree, the British gambling industry's most lucrative day of the year.
At the moment, only British-registered betting companies - both on and off-course, and including the Tote - have to pay the 10% tax.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/horse_racing/8612304.stm
The party aims to close the loophole allowing companies registered overseas to avoid contributing 10% of their gross profits to the horseracing Levy.
The new measures would force offshore bookies to provide millions of pounds to help shore up the racing industry and tackle corruption in the sport.
The Tories called the Levy "outdated", while the Lib Dems said Labour had failed to get to grips with the issue.
Labour's pledge is timed to coincide with Saturday's Grand National at Aintree, the British gambling industry's most lucrative day of the year.
At the moment, only British-registered betting companies - both on and off-course, and including the Tote - have to pay the 10% tax.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/horse_racing/8612304.stm
Topping was my area manager at H1lls
Words Chocolate and Teapot spring to mind
Words Chocolate and Teapot spring to mind
William's Hills days as numero uno unfortunately are over. Cannot understand how their share price is so high. Another crash and they are in serious trouble?
"William Hill derives some 80 per cent of its revenue from its UK business, pays three times more levy than Betfair [£18m-£6m] and the effect of offshoring has had a relatively minimal effect on the levy," he said.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If Topping could convert as many betting £Pounds in his shops from UK horseracing to his own label virtual and FOBT products then he would
Expecting him to offer any of us (punters) or the racing industry a viable future, is the same as thinking Terry Leahy at Tesco cares a jot about the welfare of his Suppliers
Given any slack ..Topping will slowly bring racing to its knees ..just slowly enough to switch customers onto his own higher margin products
Expecting him to offer any of us (punters) or the racing industry a viable future, is the same as thinking Terry Leahy at Tesco cares a jot about the welfare of his Suppliers
Given any slack ..Topping will slowly bring racing to its knees ..just slowly enough to switch customers onto his own higher margin products
Racing needs to come up with a legally enforceable way of charging for its most valuable asset, which is the wholesale betting product it produces.
Apart from some betting operators refusing to pay the 10% levy, it also leaves the racing industry highly exposed to the unknowns of price elasticity when it comes to new low overhead/low margin operators.
Apart from some betting operators refusing to pay the 10% levy, it also leaves the racing industry highly exposed to the unknowns of price elasticity when it comes to new low overhead/low margin operators.
tax the fobts to high heaven!! easy they pi ss off to gib, hit em hard here, aint rocket is it.
Without horse racing those FOBTs would never have arrived in the high street. The big bookies (one in particular) used the back door to sneak them in to shops primarily licensed for betting on horses and greyhounds and thus diverted cash from the racing industry to their own backpockets along with new cash from fresh mugs drawn to the casino effect. So given all that it's a joke that they are complaining about BF diverting cash away from the levy.
However, i do think that given how BF make the rules up as they go along regarding deductions from exchange players such as introducing the premium charge, they should be using much more of this extra cash to give back to racing (in proportion to how much is derived from racing markets obviously).
However, i do think that given how BF make the rules up as they go along regarding deductions from exchange players such as introducing the premium charge, they should be using much more of this extra cash to give back to racing (in proportion to how much is derived from racing markets obviously).
The Government don't get enough out of The Vermin if you ask me.
The main reason for a fall in levy receipts is the migration of horseracing volume to betting exchanges like Betfair who receive extremely favourable tax treatment," he said. "The BHA know that and so do the dogs in the street."
I'd love to make some bets with William Hill, but the maximum bet I can have on anything on the internet is £0.00, and every time I phone them up for a bet, they have a little trading decision and then point blank refuse to take it.
The 'migration' they are now using as a political football to attack Betfair has happened because they have made the commercial decision only to bet with people that lose.
What a lying, hypocritical, manipulative, fraudulent bunch of thieves this company are...
I'd love to make some bets with William Hill, but the maximum bet I can have on anything on the internet is £0.00, and every time I phone them up for a bet, they have a little trading decision and then point blank refuse to take it.
The 'migration' they are now using as a political football to attack Betfair has happened because they have made the commercial decision only to bet with people that lose.
What a lying, hypocritical, manipulative, fraudulent bunch of thieves this company are...
a bookmaker recently advertised the post of a senior trader, one of the job requirement was being "well versed in betting exchanges", LOL
if the bookies also bet with betfair then they will not be declaring all of their profits anyway.
they can show you a book that proves they lost on a race while hiding the fact that they hedged that loser at bigger prices on betfair and were now in profit for that race.
levy dodged. job done.
they can show you a book that proves they lost on a race while hiding the fact that they hedged that loser at bigger prices on betfair and were now in profit for that race.
levy dodged. job done.
betfair offering £20 to play their own fobt's on-line casino? .... betunfair
OUTPOST
not true levy rules require10% of bookies exchange profits.
not true levy rules require10% of bookies exchange profits.
WH had turnover of £997m in the year to 31 Dec 2009, Betfair had turnover of £303m in that year.
So if WH pays 3x as much levy on 3.3 times the turnover, this is slightly less pro-rata.
WH profit was £197m pre-exceptionals compared with £38m for Betfair, i.e. 5.2 times.
So if WH pays 3x as much levy on 3.3 times the turnover, this is slightly less pro-rata.
WH profit was £197m pre-exceptionals compared with £38m for Betfair, i.e. 5.2 times.
Sorry Betfair year end is 30 April 2009, so the comparison is not quite correct. Betfair is growing around 20% per year and the periods are 8 months out, so once one allows for that the levy proportion of turnover is almost identical.
38 million must be net....they took 340 million in comission.
Buisness is buisness.
Should we not back a horse at Hills because they pay less tax than British based bookmakers?
The choice is ours.
I had to look up google to find out where some of the online casinos are registered.
Before you all start shouting, I choose to play casino games online.
Their edge is lower than the bookies and I pay that for the entertainment value.
Hills should not complain if some buisness is better than theirs!
Maybe if they stopped employing minimum wage eye candy( who haven't a clue about racing ), I would start going in again.
The TAX take on buisness in the UK is unfair.
UK cannot compete with offshore as we have too many people in public jobs and too many living off the pension from a public job.
Also too many on state benefits. ( please note that this is not a political rant, I just need to shout at something because Lee lost the masters )
The only way I will stop using betfair is if the TOTE stops being so greedy (The government is trying to sell it!) and the margins are reduced to below betfair levels.
The margins on Betfair are also a Buisness decision!
We stop paying them, they get lower.
I do not make a living from betting. I choose to do it as a form of entertainment and the margins I pay are the cost of that entertainment. I can also count, so most of the time I will choose Betfair, even with their 5% take on profits.
When Hills offer a better price, I will bet with Hills ( Online, till they get some staff who know what they are doing )
What do you think?
P.S. I know Phil Mickelson is quite good at golf.
Should we not back a horse at Hills because they pay less tax than British based bookmakers?
The choice is ours.
I had to look up google to find out where some of the online casinos are registered.
Before you all start shouting, I choose to play casino games online.
Their edge is lower than the bookies and I pay that for the entertainment value.
Hills should not complain if some buisness is better than theirs!
Maybe if they stopped employing minimum wage eye candy( who haven't a clue about racing ), I would start going in again.
The TAX take on buisness in the UK is unfair.
UK cannot compete with offshore as we have too many people in public jobs and too many living off the pension from a public job.
Also too many on state benefits. ( please note that this is not a political rant, I just need to shout at something because Lee lost the masters )
The only way I will stop using betfair is if the TOTE stops being so greedy (The government is trying to sell it!) and the margins are reduced to below betfair levels.
The margins on Betfair are also a Buisness decision!
We stop paying them, they get lower.
I do not make a living from betting. I choose to do it as a form of entertainment and the margins I pay are the cost of that entertainment. I can also count, so most of the time I will choose Betfair, even with their 5% take on profits.
When Hills offer a better price, I will bet with Hills ( Online, till they get some staff who know what they are doing )
What do you think?
P.S. I know Phil Mickelson is quite good at golf.
The trend assumption seems to be that Betfair are not bookmakers but who then takes the risk on SP bets?
In my opinion Betfair are not fully contributing to the cost of running racing and should be required to - so for once I find myself agreeing with WH - so I now expect some stick!
In my opinion Betfair are not fully contributing to the cost of running racing and should be required to - so for once I find myself agreeing with WH - so I now expect some stick!
From an article on the Asian Racing Conference in Sydney today......
Nick Coward said that with the UK general election underway he predicted that within 12 months the laws will have changed in the UK to ban off-shore wagering, and that within five years there would be major shifts in all government thinking
.
Nick Coward said that with the UK general election underway he predicted that within 12 months the laws will have changed in the UK to ban off-shore wagering, and that within five years there would be major shifts in all government thinking
.
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