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11 Sep 20 18:38
Date Joined: 09 Jan 11
| Topic/replies: 14,117 | Blogger: FOYLESWAR's blog
ghayiath the odds on fav and will be hard to beat after 4 wins on the bounce and   the best horse in europe on official ratings  ,last time put up an impressive performance to slam magical who comes back for more tommorow , the fav will obviously be popular on the back of those victorys but is he beatable ? well aob runs 3  and possible one of those( armory) may the sacrificial lamb to give him  some company up front putting it up to the fav and possibly setting it up for a closer . japan wasnt far behind  far behind the fav at sandown and had excuses last time while sottsass had strong form last season and shouldnt be underestimated . can see the fav getting smashed into shorter so bog and i will take him on with sottsas and japan . around 8/1 and 7s bog bets .opinions and input encouraged !
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Report impossible123 September 11, 2020 8:39 PM BST
I'd not take Ghaiyyath at this odds but I think he'll win. He beat an unfit Enable; AVD, Magical and Japan - all no world beaters. And, Stradivarius is a marathon runner. I'm hoping Sottsass could serve it up to him given his win in the French Derby.
Report FELTFAIR September 12, 2020 11:48 AM BST
Hard to oppose the favourite and may get involved if  Pyledriver wins. If not then a watch.
Report Figgis September 12, 2020 2:40 PM BST
Ghaiyyath's York win proved I'd badly underrated his Eclipse win by about 5lbs. It was a high class performance at York backed up by the time. I don't see any of the others here improving to match that effort so if I was sure he'd repeat that effort he'd be a bet even at this short price. However, while lots of horses have won multiple big races, many of them, not all, find it very difficult to keep winning after running multiple fast times. Maybe Ghaiyyath is one of the few, but at this price I'll take him on. I can see why the market prefers Magical over Japan, with most thinking Moore is on the wrong one. But while she's capable of taking this if Ghaiyyath is below par, she's already had a busy time and even for a tough mare like her it's going to be hard to maintain that level.

I backed Japan in the King George and while it may have been a stretch to see him beating Enable, he clearly wasn't right. For me, having revised the Eclipse, that effort leaves him second only to the fav on this year's form. There's always a doubt backing a horse after a dismal run and obviously he's also going to need a below par run from the fav, but that's why he's this price, which I still see as value. Actually I think Moore is on the wrong one in the Matron and I'm backing Peaceful as well.
Report FOYLESWAR September 12, 2020 2:51 PM BST
just hoping they dont give the fav an easy lead .put it up to him early see what he is made of .
Report Figgis September 12, 2020 2:56 PM BST
Yes, ideally, for those opposing him, the other connections should be saying well if he's going to beat them he's going to have to run another fast time.
Report harry callaghan September 12, 2020 4:09 PM BST
a tricky puzzle and if you believe ghaiyyath will repeat the dose he really should win however, i actually thought he had a hard race in the juddmonte

you have to of been disappointed with the mare last time out and she didn't look to me to of been firing on all cylinders tending to lug under pressure but she wasn't knocked about and like a lot of the stables horses was ridden for another day.. i do see her finishing closer today and running well

the one i like is sottsass who has looked disappointing from what he has been racing against but from an excellent trainer has been nicely coming to the boil and finally gets some nice ground. for me he still has upside but imo is set to run to his best and i like him in this spot along with the mare but he will do for me

i don't like japan as an individual and under pressure he still fails to convince me sos figgis but all the best all the same
Report brigust1 September 12, 2020 4:15 PM BST
I knew she was in the wrong place by the rail at York. Yes.
Report brigust1 September 12, 2020 4:17 PM BST
I have followed this filly forever against Enable now Ghayyaith. It's been a long wait.
Report impossible123 September 12, 2020 4:21 PM BST
It's about time Magical won. She's been the bridesmaid too many times behind Enable; eyeballed Ghaiyyath, job done. The Arc bubble for Ghaiyyath is truly busted; Sottsass ran a promising race on ground firmer than he liked, and was finishing.

Nevertheless, Enable and Love for the main event at Longchamp next month.
Report Figgis September 12, 2020 4:28 PM BST
Yes harry, as usual the market told a different story to the one that O'Brien and Moore were telling. Japan has clearly gone at the game. Obviously Ghaiyyath underperformed rather than the others improving, as I'm sure Armory wouldn't have got so close in his other Gp1s, but good to see Magical win again.
Report FOYLESWAR September 12, 2020 4:35 PM BST
well done winners
Report harry callaghan September 12, 2020 4:37 PM BST
what did you make of royal dornoch at a price in the next figgis...bit to find but i liked the set up for him here. you played?
Report Figgis September 12, 2020 4:43 PM BST
Harry, no not played. I have very little between the front two in the market but it's just a case of which, if any, are on a going day. Like you say RD does have it to find, but unlike many of these he's a horse that could still be on the up, good luck.
Report harry callaghan September 12, 2020 4:45 PM BST
fair play
Report harry callaghan September 12, 2020 4:51 PM BST
not good enough i knew that was set up for a closer...great old horse that safe voyage
Report A_T September 12, 2020 7:10 PM BST
Ballydoyle tactics worked well with Magical and Japan forcing Ghaiyyath to work too hard too early to stay in front so not having enough left for the finish. The close proximity of 66-1 Armory who ran on from the back suggests they went quickly early on and were all tiring at the end but Magical's proven stamina was the deciding factor.
Report harry callaghan September 12, 2020 7:27 PM BST
did you not think he worked hard at york AT in regards to getting taken on today early...personally i think he paid for that effort last time. I agree they softened him up today but he didn't have it today and underperformed
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 9:31 AM BST
Playground bully that's all. He is a good horse I am not denying that but 'best in the world?' Why do they always think everything is the best in the world?

I have always liked Magical yet when she serves it up to this playground bully everyone is defending him. It was brilliant and she just powered away. She beat him miles before yet it was such a shame he wasn't able to be allowed to do his own thing, get his own way. What a shame. I didn't win back what she owes me but that doesn't matter I cheered her all the way. 
She is a wonderful filly/mare. I thought she would do the same to Enable but Enable isn't a playground bully she was just too good.
Report A_T September 13, 2020 9:40 AM BST
a good horse ought to be able to overcome adversity like that presented yesterday by Ballydoyle - they tried all sorts of ways to get Sea The Stars beaten but to no effect
Report harry callaghan September 13, 2020 1:34 PM BST
playground bully brigust i don't get any of you're comments tbh just because you have picked the winner and you like her so much, i don't think insulting the second is fair here...i also had a bit on her but look at the bigger picture before slating the loser

i once did a lot of horse study on performance and ghaiyyath imo was asked to go and steel a horse race yesterday, when clearly over the top after 2 big efforts in a row this time after a big effort 3 weeks ago

his latest effort at york when the mare was given a considerate ride and was clearly ridden for another day was the difference here imo

if you look at ghaiyyath and his run style you will know he has pace, on this occasion buick did not want to go fast and conserve his horse energy as he knew there was nothing in the tank. I remember the shadwell boys saying before the king george that the great horse was over the top (nashwan) but they went slow in order to look after him and try and steel a race, they pulled it off ghaiyyath did not yesterday but i don't feel the need to slate

my opening post on this thread said i thought he had a hard race in the juddmonte and i stick by it after the'll be interesting if they freshen him up now but he could be done but you never know...they have picked there fights well with the mare and here was another well picked fight after a nice education at york
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 2:11 PM BST
Sorry Harry, it's just a term people use and it was all over the media that he was a horse that likes his own way and doesn't like to be pushed. That is what a  playground bully is. I have a different take on York that Magical and Komeko were running against the far rail which was the wrong place to be and I thought she would have been a lot closer that day. And I backed Kameko in the QE11 on that basis. I don't know if that is right but that is what the results seemed to show. And I don't accept for one minute he was over the top from 4 runs this year which it appeared he won reasonably within himself and unchallenged. He is five now and lightly raced. And with the proximity of the third horse yesterday I am not sure he ran any sort of a race, possibly because he hates to be pressed and sulks. I think that is nearer the truth.

Just as an aside H if you are looking at space between races Brigadier Gerard won his first 5 races as a 4 year old in 9 weeks including the POW, Eclipse and King George in 4 weeks, Magical ran her 5 races this season in 15 weeks and Ghaiyyath ran his 5 races this season in 29 weeks.
Report harry callaghan September 13, 2020 2:23 PM BST
yeah i get the brigadier thing and other horses have done it who may of been tougher than him.

in ghaiyyath's case who is a front runner who uses himself and clearly puts it all in, i don't feel he backed up yesterday and i think they punted on him be able to put those horses away yesterday in a prestige race. it has always been reported he puts it all in and i think he did at york with the rider being over hard in the furlong which was unnecessary considering he was clear. anyway i won't be holding against him, he has still been a very good horse this season in an average year of quality horses
Report Figgis September 13, 2020 2:45 PM BST
I've not seen a better 10f performance this season than those put up by Ghaiyyath earlier this year. Yesterday's result ended up a below par level for the race. Even Magical didn't run quite as well as she had at York. Armory isn't up to much. Lots of big performances come from horses who are just in the form of their life for a short period. Especially when we're talking about horses who peak late in their career, as Ghaiyyath has. The fact that they can't keep repeating that level doesn't detract from the performances they put up at the time. Well, at least, it doesn't in other sports where the followers have some perspective.

Very, very few horses can keep running fast times repeatedly. Many past winners who kept winning Gp1s got away with it here and there, a Guineas against non stayers, a slow run Derby, etc. As for Ghaiyyath being a playground bully and not liking it up him, that is just ridiculous. Yesterday's was a well run race but they didn't go mad, Magical was never further than a length behind Ghaiyyath and for much of the race she was closer than that. People are talking as though Ghaiyyath got away with setting a slow pace and then quickening in his other races. That isn't what happened.
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 3:27 PM BST
We will just have to wait and see I guess and this is, as you said Figgis, an unusual season. Unless he continues to get soft races like his last four then others may now see how to beat him. It has been all over the media before and afterwards. Sady AOB is the only trainer who may have the horses to test that, other than Godolphin. If, as you say, they never went mad yesterday then perhaps he couldn't fancy a fight. He has had 4 simple tasks for the best horse in the world. An easy at Meydan after a long break, a fast time at Newmarket with a strong following wind, an unfit Enable and Japan, then the run of the race on the best part of the course at York. All this over a more than 6 month period. Frankel only took 24 weeks for his 5 races.
Personally I think he is a very good horse with a problem. And I suspect the only way that was tested was because AOB has so many good horses. It will be interesting what the future holds.
Report Figgis September 13, 2020 3:34 PM BST
Brigust, he may bounce back to his best, I know other 5yos like him have but can't think of them off the top of my head. Personally I'd be inclined to oppose him again, as I think more often than not when horses like him decline it continues for the rest of the season, with Poet's Word and Crystal Ocean being recent examples.
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 3:57 PM BST
Where will he go next, stud? My guess is the BC Turf. That will suit his running style and if Magical goes to the Champion Stakes and wins it then she may miss the BC as she did last year. However, if she goes for the Filly and Mares at Ascot she may then go for the BC before stud. It is a bit of a head-scratcher for the boys in blue.
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 4:02 PM BST
I also believe because he won in Meydan that gave him a fitness edge the others never had.
Report harry callaghan September 13, 2020 4:56 PM BST
basically your giving him no credit for any of his wins brigust? judging by your comments trying to get a victory of why he won his races this season

disgusting really considering how fast he has'll argue about a track bias at york but the other horses were already out of there comfort zone at the top of the straight...i think you've talked a lot of nonsense to suit your argument on this thread tbh
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 5:30 PM BST
You are entitled to your opinion H. I will keep mine about what you wrote to myself, thanks.
Report harry callaghan September 13, 2020 6:10 PM BST
what makes me laugh brigust is you give him no credit for any of his wins, yet you back kameko to win a race later in the season, it just doesn't make any sense to me
Report harry callaghan September 13, 2020 6:12 PM BST
so kameko deserves credit and worth a bet later in the year for running like a pig, yet the winner who has run fast and destroyed him worth nothing at all. i don't think fitness was a worry for any runners that day tbh yet you knock him i find it very odd tbh
Report FELTFAIR September 13, 2020 7:07 PM BST
Harry, you have to indulge Brig a bit, that`s the first winner he`s had since Australia won the Derby.Grin
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 7:49 PM BST
You could be right there Felt. And my bet on Raabihah doesn't look as good as it was this morning. Cry

Harry when assessing horses I look at their good points and their not so good points. Kidding yourself can be costly. I know, I've backed Magical every time she has run against Enable and Ghayyaith. If that is a problem for you I'm sorry but why should I lie?
I think Ghaiyyath is a very good horse, I've said that but I also think he doesn't like being pressured, that he has had a long break between runs, that he has had some easyish targets and that at York I thought he was racing on a better part of the course than Kameko and Magical.
They are the facts as I see them, if you disagree I don't call you names or accuse you of anything. This is horseracing and, thankfully, we all have different views often about the same thing. That is fine with me and really it should be fine with you.
Report FELTFAIR September 13, 2020 7:53 PM BST
Looks like a non stayer to me Brig but only a trial.
Report brigust1 September 13, 2020 8:23 PM BST
I'm hoping the faster ground, the real target in mind may have been the reason. I remember Treve won this race and it wasn't great form but she won the Arc next. Today's race looked better and he did look to be saving a bit. Let's hope today wasn't the day.
Report Figgis September 21, 2020 4:30 PM BST
I thought she would do the same to Enable but Enable isn't a playground bully she was just too good

Brigust, no question that Enable was clearly superior to Magical in her 3yo season. Last year when they met twice Magical had no excuse with the ground or the way the races were run. That said, do you think Magical was in peak form on both of those occasions? I definitely do not.
Report Figgis September 21, 2020 4:32 PM BST
I mean the Eclipse and Yorkshire Oaks meetings, as Magical obviously didn't run her race in the Arc.
Report A_T September 21, 2020 4:39 PM BST
that's 3 excuses Figgis. any more?
Report Figgis September 21, 2020 5:27 PM BST
A_T, so you think Magical ran her race in the Arc?
Report A_T September 21, 2020 7:03 PM BST
Enable beat Magical 7l last year and 5l the previous year on faster ground - so consistency there for course and distance. Anyway if you really believe Magical has an excuse every time she gets beaten by Enable then there's no point discussing it further.
Report Figgis September 21, 2020 7:12 PM BST
I've already said that Enable was clearly better as a 3yo so that isn't relevant. Although for anyone conveniently pointing to the 5 length superiority in the 2018 Arc it could also be pointed out that she only beat Magical by an all out 3/4 of a length two runs later. So the superiority wasn't that much by the end of that season. Unless Enable is the only one allowed excuses.
Report Figgis September 21, 2020 7:17 PM BST
Apologies, that should read clearly better than the 3yo Magical.
Report A_T September 21, 2020 7:57 PM BST
Enable doesn't need excuses she always beats Magical.
Report Figgis September 21, 2020 8:24 PM BST
Well, in the period I'm specifically talking about they've only faced each other twice where both of them ran at least somewhere close to their best form. In the first meeting, the Eclipse, Magical had taken in three softer races on her way to her main early season target, the POW. She had a hard race that day and connections were going to put her away for an end of season campaign but decided to have another roll of the dice. Unusual for her, she was sweaty and edgy before the race. The clock pointed to her running a few pounds below her best and so did the proximity of some finishers behind. Some might see that as right up with her best form. That's up to them but personally I don't.

Before the Yorkshire Oaks O'Brien had said she was just ready to start again but the race she was being trained for was the Irish Champion Stakes. It's debatable whether she ran to her best that day at York. Using the clock again as a guide she was below her best, in my view, and on this occasion I believe O'Brien's comments that he didn't have her in tip top condition. It's very difficult to train these older horses for a specific target and expect them to deliver a similar performance within the space of a few weeks.

People have made excuses for Enable in last year's Arc and this year's Eclipse. I actually agree with them that she was below par both times. Even though Waldgeist ran his best ever race in the Arc I have no doubts that Enable would've beaten him if running her best. Whereas even though she was a bit below her best in this year's Eclipse I still think Ghaiyyath would've narrowly beaten her anyway.

So two races where Enable had excuses in seasons where she's had extremely light campaigns. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe Magical, a mare who has been raced much harder, wasn't quite at her very best in a couple of races she wasn't even specifically targeted at.
Report brigust1 September 22, 2020 12:49 PM BST
Hi Figgis

I really fancied Magical to do what she did to Ghaiyyath. Assert pressure. I actually thought if she made the running and asked Enable to go get her she might win but they never employed those tactics till this year. They always seemed intent on giving Enable first run. But in saying that I may have just been clutching at straws. I try to see a way horse A can beat horse B and see if they employ those tactics. Some horses are so closely matched it just comes down to tactics.
I did get back some of the money lost on Wichita the other week but I am still not sure what is the best way to ride him.
Report Figgis September 22, 2020 3:08 PM BST
Brigust, but don't you think everyone obsesses over ground, riding tactics, etc, which yes can sometimes be factors, but the simple truth is that most horses can only be brought to peak a couple of times in a season? Wichita was putting up a no show at Goodwood and Deauville however they'd ridden him. Not that it needs endorsing but some of the very best trainers have stated that horses can only run to peak a limited number of times a season. Gosden is no mug. If he thought he could win more Gp1 races with Enable for the last two seasons before the Arc he'd have been trying it. I'd argue that last year she lost the Arc not because of anything that happened on the day, but because of her exploits leading up to the race.
Report brigust1 September 24, 2020 10:18 AM BST
I am not sure horses can be lumped together like that Figgis. They are all different.

Enable has run 10 times in the last 3 seasons whereas Magical ran 9 times last season alone. How many times did either need to be at their peak?
Enable only needed to be at her peak 7 times in those three seasons whereas Magical needed to be at or close to her peak every time.

I had a chat with Henry Candy at his stables last week and we got round to why he believes the top horses are running so few times and he thinks it is because an increasing number of them cannot stand training the way they used to. He thinks their bones are getting increasingly weaker and their joints. He had an article in the Racing Post about this particular problem. Added to that increasingly worse animals are entering the breeding pool because more and more horses are required to fill the races.

I was reading the new Frankel book the other day and they said when Frankel became a three year old they took the heavier lad off and put a lighter lad on to take the strain of Frankel's legs. When Brigadier Gerard went from two to three they took me off, 8st and put Bob Turner on 10 stone. And he then rode him for the rest of his career. During the winter Henry kept the horses in the covered ride they all did 18 circuits. At Hern's we did that before we went out to the roads or the gallops.

Training methods and breeding has changed inexorably. Will it be for the better or the worse? When BG went to stud he covered just over 30 mares a year that was normal, today it is in the hundreds. Frankel will produce more foals in one year than BG or Mill Reef produced in their whole careers.
Report Figgis September 24, 2020 1:54 PM BST
I am not sure horses can be lumped together like that Figgis. They are all different

I never said they are all the same.

I don't know about pre-1985, but I do know that since then very very few racehorses have been able to run fast run races repeatedly and run to a peak figure time after time. Nothing has changed since then.
Report brigust1 September 24, 2020 5:19 PM BST
I guess the reason Figgis may be that the components you need are:

1) a very good horse with a limited distance range restricting the trainer from operating outside those limited parameters.

2) The horse must be free running but ridden carefully to prevent rapid emptying at the end.

3) The opposition must be very limited in number and ability.

4) The number of races run must be very spread out.

5) The number of races per season must be kept to a strict limit.

6) The connections must have no intention at all to test the horse's true ability.

7) The horse's breeders must refuse to race their best horses against this horse.

8) It helps if the judge of these fast run races actually means fast run part of races not complete races.

9) It helps if the judge of these fast run part races does not understand that fast run full races are a better achievement.

10) All it needs then is enough deluded individuals to believe what they are selling.

That is why this member of the species has not been readily available since the mid 1980's.
Report Figgis September 24, 2020 6:50 PM BST
Nothing to do with fast part run races, as that doesn't take as much out of a horse. Nothing to do with horses running over a different distance or unsuitable ground as you wouldn't expect them to run up their best under those circumstances. I'm saying that when a horse is running over its best trip and ground and asked to fully extend in a fast run race and runs to its full potential there is a very limited number of times that MOST horses can repeat that kind of effort in successive races. Many of the horses who have run up a sequence of Gp1s have done it while having the luxury of a slowly run race here or there, or at least not having to be fully extended.
Report brigust1 September 24, 2020 8:49 PM BST
Well thank goodness dor that. It makes the next question will be so simple for you to answer.

What races are we talking about and what races are you comparing them with to give you this information?
Report brigust1 September 24, 2020 8:50 PM BST
Report Figgis September 24, 2020 10:29 PM BST
I'm talking about racing at the highest level. Ideally I'd argue that a Gp1 performance can be put up even in a Listed race but that would leave the merit of the performance open to debate, so I'll stick with Gp1 races. There are exceptions but the majority of racehorses are only capable of running peak performances in overall fast run races two or three times in succession before their form takes some kind of dip or they need a break. Many runners are only capable of running a fast peak twice in a season and that's them finished for the year, break or no break.

Taking the Arc as an example, Dylan Thomas as a 4yo was obviously a Gp1 horse but he was a few pounds short of what I'd personally call a really top class older horse. Going into the Arc, in fast run races he put up 5 successive performances where he either ran to the pound or within a couple of pounds of his best each time. Highly unusual. Whereas when Authorized won the Derby he was right up with the fastest Derby winning performances I'd seen. He later beat DT fair and square at York. DT didn't turn the form around with Authorized in the Arc because of the ground, the way he was ridden, etc. He turned it around because Authorized was knackered from earlier efforts.

I made the case for Found on here when she won the Arc. However, Postponed had beaten her easily at Epsom. I argued on here that Found had since put up a much improved effort at Leopardstown since that defeat. Nevertheless, that still wasn't enough to turn the form around by as much as 11 lengths. The only reason Found turned the form around so significantly was because Postponed was knackered, which wasn't completely unpredictable beforehand.

Perhaps you could give me an example of a Gp1 horse that you think put up very similar winning peak figures in a sequence of fast run races in the last 35 years?
Report Figgis September 24, 2020 10:35 PM BST
I should've clarified that even though Dylan Thomas was a few pounds below the very best older horses he was highly unusual in that he was extremely consistent in running very close to his mark in a sequence of fast run races. He wasn't as good as a peak form Authorized (well not on wfa terms anyway) but he was a much tougher, consistent horse. It was through that rather than ability that he beat Authorized in the Arc.
Report brigust1 September 25, 2020 8:30 AM BST
I thought not Figgis. I refer you to your comment of 1.54pm yesterday. If you haven't got the guts to back up your statements with solid facts then don't make them.
This is a horse racing forum and I am sure they will get an open discussion plus approval or disapproval of the points you tried to make.
Report brigust1 September 25, 2020 9:43 AM BST
And I have to say I thought your comments about Postponed were wrong. Postponed hated going right-handed and I think he injured himself in the Arc.

In his career, before and including the Arc, he ran right-handed on 7 occasions winning twice only very narrowly, hard-fought successes. Going left-handed he ran 6 times and won 6 times winning comfortably every time.

After the Arc he returned to Meydan but finished 2nd twice and was retired.
Report Figgis September 25, 2020 1:07 PM BST
If you haven't got the guts to back up your statements with solid facts then don't make them

WTAF are you talking about now? I said very very few horses have been able to run multiple fast races in succession when fully extended. What FACTS do you require?
Report Figgis September 25, 2020 1:26 PM BST
he ran right-handed on 7 occasions winning twice only very narrowly, hard-fought successes

That's funny, as one of those hard fought successes was the KG, which most people had as his best performance at that point in his career. Hilarious how people can spin the FACTS to suit their argument Grin
Report brigust1 September 25, 2020 2:31 PM BST
You do talk utter b olloc ks Figgis.
It was his best form at the time if you care to look. It is just that his form afterwards was better. It was around then they suspected he had a problem but unfortunately most of the very best races are right-handed. Eventually, they discovered a stress fracture.
Report Figgis September 25, 2020 2:50 PM BST
Generous, fast run Derby, fast run Irish Derby, fast run KG. Overcooked for the Arc. Reference Point, got away with a moderately run Derby, fast run Eclipse, fast run KG, fast run St Leger (which he won but showed lower form). Overcooked for the Arc. One of the best examples was Nashwan, fast run Guineas, fast run Derby, fast run Eclipse. Carson went on record saying that in hindsight he wish he hadn't asked Nashwan for as big an effort in the Eclipse, as he just wasn't the same horse afterwards. He said he didn't believe he was up to winning another fast run race, but he knew he could still sprint for a couple of furlongs. The plan was devised to use a pacemaker in the KG but instead of setting a fast pace like everyone expected they would set a slow pace to enable Nashwan to be saved for a finishing kick. The plan worked and Nashwan narrowly beat Cacoethes ( a horse he'd hammered in the Derby) by a very hard fought neck. Nashwan couldn't even win his Arc trial after that.

Those are just three examples from the 80s. There have been endless others since. The exceptions are in a very small minority.

You must be lumping on Kameko today in a Gp2 at these odds?
Report Figgis September 25, 2020 2:59 PM BST
It is just that his form afterwards was better

How about comparing the actual form of the races? If he could win a King George on a right handed track, why couldn't he finish ahead of Siljan's Saga in the Arc?
Report brigust1 September 25, 2020 3:52 PM BST
Postponed started the 2/1 favourite for the 2016 Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe over 2400 metres at Chantilly Racecourse. After tracking the leaders for most of the way he weakened in the straight and finished fifth of the sixteen runners behind Found. Roger Varian said "he was trapped three wide early on and couldn’t get in. It meant he met the big bend on the wrong lead and then he didn’t quicken up like he can. It's disappointing as we went in hoping we would win, but the main thing is we still have a horse to go to war with"

It is no good talking to people who know phuck all about horses.
Report Figgis September 25, 2020 4:11 PM BST

No good putting up lame trainer excuses when the video is there for all to see. I guess that excuse sounded better than "Basically he was ****" Grin
Report giggitygiggity September 25, 2020 4:30 PM BST
Who will have the final word?

brigust1 10/11  Figgis 10/11

Report impossible123 September 25, 2020 6:35 PM BST
Postponed ran his ARC in the Coronation Cup and Juddmonte International; he beat Found and Highland Reel (1st and 2nd in the Src) very easily. He was out-manoeuvred by the Coolmore gang.

Postponed would almost certainly have won the Arc if he'd remained with Cumani who'd the Arc as his main target - not Coronation Cup or Juddmonte.
Report brigust1 September 25, 2020 8:59 PM BST
That's what you get from people who think horses are a number on spread-sheet. If you got out and spoke to people you just might learn something but I doubt there is room in your head for it.

And why on this earth would he put up lame trainer excuses? Eventually, they found out he had a stress fracture and retired him. Another trainer excuse I suppose. Horses are real you know Figgis. I bet you think they are just imaginary on television, on film and in books. Laugh
Report Figgis September 25, 2020 11:19 PM BST
And why on this earth would he put up lame trainer excuses?

Oh, I dunno, possibly in the hope of protecting the reputation of a future stallion. Or do you think it is only O'Brien and Coolmore that talk crap about their horses?

Eventually, they found out he had a stress fracture and retired him

Yes they found that out 6 months later after running him another two times.

Horses are real you know Figgis

Yes they are. That's why they find it difficult to keep replicating form to the pound in fast run races that cause them actual physical stress. Rather than the ridiculous notion that they are machine like beings who would run like clockwork if only foolish connections would ride them like a certain forumite wanted them to be ridden. Thanks for establishing that point Wink
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