magna grecia ...................2,000 gns

Impossible you write it's a pastime yet in next post your gonna lay (z) probably,you also say you don't take seriously what scribes say or write yet every time there's a report regarding a top race your on here relaying it.so is this just for the benefit of the forum reader's if so thanks for posting the information.

he's the ultimate, talking/writing for its own sake moron, john

'Saritamer', good call on Skardu. He's about 10 but was short as 7 so after his win.

With TDH not a certain runner, and Persian King almost a cert to be running here would AOB be tempted to split Magna Grecia and Ten Sovereigns and aim one at the French equivalent? Ten Sovereigns has firmed into 8, but Magna Grecia is on the drift from 7 to 11 (matched).

I thought Gosden has already indicated Calyx would be dropped in trip for his 1st race back from injury, and could run in the Pavalion Stakes over 6f at Ascot yet there are takers at 22 earlier, and £20 at 50 at present - he was 70 just yesterday; Royal Marine is still being aimed for the 2000G, and will be wearing a hood, according to Bin Suroor.

Advertise has been backed; Zakouski was out-of-his-depth today, and any price you like.

thought i had done my dough on persian king but must be a fair chance he will turn up in the  2.000 gns .

^^
That's how the cookies crumble sometimes eg I thought Harzand was a goner in the Derby. PK is 5/1 (best), but no doubt will be shorter if TDH is scratched.

I understand Royal Marine did not get a clear passage home, and Skardu improved again nevertheless, I still believe PK and Magna Grecia represent the best form after TDH. This game is so unpredictable: TDH, Quorto and Anthony Van Dyck (AVK) - highest rate 2 yr old - yet none would be on show next month. How ironic!

Magna Grecia is still drifting similarly, TDH - both on 8 here.

MG could be a goner - he's matched at 17 here.

With Magna Grecia (MG) on the drift today (8->14) his stablemate and Derby prospect Anthony Van Dyck (AVD) has been matched at 28 (from 230) just a week ago - red herring?

persian king misses the guineas and as i like a few cracks of the whip  i have added madhmoon earlier at arounds 20s plus .

No decision about the participation of Calyx (yet) until the weekend Magna Grecia has come in for further support; he's into 5.6, and is the present fav over his stablemate Ten Sovereigns (6.2). However, I think, if Calyx is given the go-ahead he'd be vying for favouritism given his previous form, and the high regards of his connections.

Calyx won’t run

^^
You may be right, Calyx is weak and matched at 24 - the market is usually right. Also, reading between the lines of connections eg ..."nice normal blow out...a decision will be made over the weekend...Frankie seemed pretty happy with him...no decision will be made immediately but a few things to think about.., etc; all these are not exactly bullish remarks eg he'll run if he's ok over the weekend. And, Frankie's reported comment could be significant ie "pretty happy" - to me means as happy as can be given...his past predicament, etc, etc.

Money for the two Irish horses ie Magna Grecia and Madhmoon.

Frankie to ride Set Piece?

well at least we(if any were brave enough to follow ) have beaten the price, thats the easy bit !

Double whammy from Gosden: Two strongly fancied candidates neither made it to post despite positive soundbites; Persian King added salt to the wound.

And, now Ten Sovereigns is taking a walk. Could he be saved for the French version?

magna grecia around 4.7 to lay on here and madhmoon 8.6 .............time to green for a nice profit and 2 tasty free bets ! fabre stating earlier that if 1 or 2 of the "better horses come out persian king will run in the english gns ,well one of the so called better ones too darn hot is out so who is he afraid of ? cant be the one he just beat by a head or so last season can it ?

Magna Grecia (MG) and Skardu (S)G, unless Ten Sovereigns (TS) confounds everyone and stays; was on a nice little earner with TDH eg 4/1 singles, 10/1-->20/1 doubles/trebles, and Persian King 10/1 and 12/1 (cash-out 40/1). Now, down to MG, S, TS, Mad, Avertise, Pheonix plus the long priced ones  running for free; I do not want Royal Marine, Mohaather, Set Piece, Urban Icon and Great Scot.

Nevertheless, TDN would have been significantly better for me.

With Moore riding Ten Sovereigns Magna Grecia is now 6/1, surely value (?). A strong pace will suit too.

what puzzles me is why fabre is staying in france with persian king ?  looks as though it was  there for the taking .

The English 2000G is a more competitive affair than the French equivalent without the likes of Magna Grecia for one - no certainty Persian King can do the double over him either. Also, no travelling plus no Ten Sovereigns, Skardu and Madhmoon the unknowns to contend with.

ahem!

KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKkkKkKKkKkkKkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk...

wd

great call

great call

Well done Foyleswar, a good selection

thanks lads hope some of ya were daft enuff to foloow

Well done. 
Mumble, mumble, squirrels , nuts.

I place laid ten Sovereigns to be in the first five.  He was 5th.

some lessons from this race  to be learned as ever, ....... 1.if it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck swims like a duck its a fookin sprinter !  all this crap about "class will see him through " it wont  in top class races . as regards pecking order esp in aobs yard .....they have an idea who is best but its just an educated  guess ! and you have to bear that in mind ,they may work them together at home but they wont push them to their limits for obvious reasons ,after all they are thourhobreds potentialy worth millions  and no point leaving the race on the gallops . sounds like teaching granny to suck eggs but worth remembering  for future races .

Indeed. For instance Wings Of Eagles (Cliffs Of Moher); Minding (Ballydoyle); High Chaparral (Hawk Wing); Magna Grecia (Ten Sovereigns); Hermosa (Just Wonderful/Fairyland) - the list goes on and on.

So, in this Epsom Derby renewal without Too Darn Hot Ballydoyle are represented by Japan (fav/slight setback); Anthony Van Dyck (their best 2 yr old); Broome (Gp 1 2nd/convincing 10f victor); Circus Maximus (Dee Stakes).

The 1st 3 mentioned above are down to run against one another in the Derrinstown Derby Trial at Leopardstown this sunday; 3 heading the market for Ballydoyle in the same Derby Trial? Wholly unlikely I'd think; at least one will be scratched,...most likely Japan given his slight setback just a few weeks ago.

1.if it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck swims like a duck its a fookin sprinter

Lots of people thought that about Canford Cliffs going into the Guineas, including me, and many still thought it after. He didn't win the Guineas but us doubters were wrong.

.they have an idea who is best but its just an educated  guess

They obviously can't know for sure. Over longer distances it would be more difficult because it's less about speed, but it's quite rare for them to miscalculate their milers, particularly colts. For instance when most people were taken with War Command they always had more confidence in Australia, who didn't win but still did better than WC. When we're talking about the good ones the last time I remember them getting one wrong was when Rock of Gibraltar beat Hawk Wing. Even then there was some debate about the draw and Hawk Wing did go on to give a very big performance as a 4yo. My money is still on Ten Sovereigns proving he's a better horse than Magna Grecia, just not over the same trip

persian king wins the french guineas .

Persian King (6/4) has an excellent chance of doubling up in the French Derby the day after Epsom esp if AOB does not gatecrash with one of his big Epsom fancies, I believe.

Good chance of tomorrow being Wednesday too, apparently.

cant see coolmore letting the french derby go by without having a go with something .

If so, which one will be the most likely candidate to be rerouted to France? Very unlikely Broome - he's too lazy - and needs further than 10f; AVD stays 12f well similarly, Sir Dragonet.

A possible could be Japan if he credits himself well in the Dante but seems unlikely to stay further than 10f. Or maybe 1st and/or 2nd in the Dee Stakes ie Circus Maximus and Mohawk - both are too good to be pacesetters for Epsom, I think.

if aob sent one of his best over it would weaken the irish races , so he,ll send something  , but , it wont be the best they can offer . prestige wise , he may start thinking to himself , hmm we are the best atm lets run em in ireland . basically if the uk cant meet the challenge , the big races could be the irish ones in the future ? its not that far fetched imo / undermine the derby and the oaks 20 years down the line its all about winning in ireland ! right now he has all the ammunition and chooses to go the traditional route . if he foked us off we,d be a second rater !

i cant see half what i said betfair , basically we are in danger of becoming second rate

same here gpz,been like it for aweek or so for me

around 5/4 for the irish guineas ,might appeal to some .

You're not wrong. I thought I would have to wait until Ascot, by which time a bloodless Irish win might have corrected the general misconception.

I still say Magna Grecia put up marginally the worst winning Guineas performance since I began taking a serious interest in racing back in '85. Not saying he's necessarily the worst winner, which isn't the same thing, just that it was the weakest winning performance I've seen. Marginally worse than Island Sands.

So I'm obviously itching to take him on but then I look at the opposition. Skardu was an absolutely terrible Craven winner. I reckon Phoenix Of Spain would beat MG if he could return to the form that saw him finish behind Too Darn Hot. However he ran a bit below that in last year's Futurity and hasn't been out since, although the trainer sounds upbeat. Obviously there is also Too Darn Hot himself, but I have his Dante run a huge 16lbs below the form he showed to win the Dewhurst, which puts him behind MG's Guineas win.

The question is how much did TDH run below form due to lack of stamina? Personally I find it hard to believe he ran over a stone below his best purely because of the extra distance. My fear is he's gone backwards. I suppose it's possible he needed the run, maybe he won't improve much fitness wise but he may have been a bit fresh and could come on for the experience. If Gosden can get another 5lbs out of him he'll have MG's number.

I'm not ruling out a couple of the others may improve but on what they've done so far the rest look untouchable in an Irish classic.

Howellsy
Date Joined: 17 Mar 03
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22 May 19 17:42
Joined: 17 Mar 03 | Topic/replies: 937 | Blogger: Howellsy's blog
You're not wrong. I thought I would have to wait until Ascot, by which time a bloodless Irish win might have corrected the general misconception.

mug

just bare in mind the french colt sacred life whom was a top notch 2yo with no scope and went backwards , distant music just from my mind without checking up is another one

Mug, Charlton? The early markets suggest parity. One is hardly a mug to incline one way or the other in such an apparently tight race. Cheers for your constructive contribution though. I'm backing the one that ran a career best last time out as opposed to the one who suffered a first defeat 9 days earlier. MG ran a time almost the same as TDH on Dewhurst day whilst being defeated narrowly by the far more experienced subsequent French Guineas winner. TDH beat an ordinary 6f sprinter and a middle distance horse, and had raced once more than MG at the time. MG is trained by the guy who's won, what, 7 of the last 10? For me, TDH ran his race at York and people just don't want to accept that. He ran a good race, and established himself as the 3rd best middle distance 3yo in training. None of this entitles me to say MG will definitely win or that TDH won't be a superstar over 8f. However, I am entitled to argue that MG is probably the better horse now, is in a much better position to run his race on Saturday, and is tremendous value at odds against. Now let's hear your arguments as to why TDH is such a good thing please.

Obviously the 2000 Guineas has on the whole shown better performances than the Irish version over the years, but it has still usually taken a reasonably decent standard to win the race. Looking back over the last 10 years, the worst winning performance for me was Power. However I still have that performance 1lb better than the one MG just put up at Newmarket, which only strengthens my opinion of how poor this year's race was.

Even someone sceptical of the Guineas still has the 2yo form to go on. Where do you get a figure for TDH that is well clear of MG's on Dewhurst day, Figgis?

Howellsy, I have different allowances for a couple of races on that card. Even if I downgrade the Dewhurst or ignore that race I would still have TDH 14lbs ahead on his previous efforts.

As you know, I'm not the type on here who likes to say present day runners are not as good as ones from the old days, quite the reverse usually. It's just that we've got 2 horses this year, Magna Grecia and Persian King, that are being talked up as champions but in most years they'd be no better than Gp3 winners.

We're just going to have to disagree on MG. I'm quite prepared to say Persian King is overrated but for me MG did remarkably well in his 3 starts in less than a month last Autumn and has improved this year into the genuine article.

Howellsy, I'm not saying MG was a poor winner of the Futurity, he was about on par with the usual level for winning that race. It's just that there's a massive difference in a normal winner of that race and a good Guineas winner. By my reckoning he only improved 2lbs from that race to the Guineas, which still leaves him well behind the decent winners. The Guineas this year was a terrible race. It had one good horse who either failed to stay, hasn't trained on or both. Some people think he was always overrated. Magna Grecia only had a lot of very poor runners to beat.

Howellsy, just to add that as we've only had the one race to judge MG on this year I know I could be wrong. I could have underrated this year's Guineas. Magna Grecia might have improved a bundle or maybe I just underrated the Persian King form. It's just that, for me, at the moment everything fits that MG isn't that good. I'm not deliberately trying to downgrade this year's Guineas, I was surprised how low I ended up rating it. I will stay with that view until proven wrong but if MG does turn out to be the real deal I will acknowledge it.

still missing the end of comments betfair ,  hello

gpz6316, try showing fewer pages, there's a problem with 40.

Howellsy, a slavish adherence to times which reflect only the position as the horses cross the line, while disregarding your own eyes (you really don't seem to be able to watch a race) is going to cost you dearly if you back magna grecia this weekend. The horse won a 3 runner race from a runner that improved 2 stone (or didn't). His other Gr1 performance was reasonable at best beating a 20/1 shot in this race by a neck. Listening to jockey's post race comments, watching the race for yourself, and simple statistics all point to the 2000 being 100% false and completely meaningless. This will be a test of a time merchant with no idea how races are actually run (I would bet you were never any kind of athlete or swimmer in your time) and a trip handicapper who uses his eyes.

GL

Figgis


so 1st and 2nd in the 2000 both improved a "bundle" and they happened to be drawn next to one another?  Jaysus Christ

not my chat , but , charlton i reckon your wrong myself . i dont think the 2nd is a top horse , but , they talked of mg looking like a bull in the parade ring , ie very much in need of the race . many crabbed rock of Gibraltar as a legitimate guineas winner over hawkwing on the wrong side of the track . so i can see where your coming from , but , i think mg is better than you think .

Magna Grecia (MG) was dissed by professional pundits and presenters despite no Too Darn Hot (TDH) or Persian King in the English 2000G, but now he's preferred over TDH citing it's only 9 days since the Dante for TDH. Will they be wrong again? Skardu could do both as he's under the radar; he won the race on his side, but could have had a hard race.

when mg ran a very much fancied french guineas winner to a neck it was only his second race . he then won the now verturity and has since won the guineas . he has plenty scope , is in the right hands . to suggest he is pants is a big underestimate in my view . diffferent opinions make for good prices . we wait to see .

regarding skardu having a hard race , either he  was green and did not have a hard race or he is not that good and did have a hard race

obviously i,m the latter

Charlton, so in your view Skardu must have been the 'moral' winner of the Guineas and will turn that form around on Saturday?

Haggas 1st indicated the St James's would be the next race for Skardu as he's had a hard race. I've not read why the change of heart.

The effect of the draw is 5 lengths minimum. would have been 6th to 10th

Charlton, did you mark up the winners of the later two handicaps by 5 lengths minimum?

Charlton, I'm not one dimensional as you claim. I've learned the hard way about the limitations of final time figures. On his second start, MG suggested to me he could be top class on both time and the way he kept finding for pressure. I was disappointed with his run in the Vertem but at least he showed he could battle through horses and overcome adversity. As I have said ad nauseam, he was also having his 3rd race in less than a month. He was entitled to underperform. In the Guineas he suggested he could track a decent speed horse (Shine so Bright) and run on strongly. How far should he have won by? The Guineas is littered with horses who finished close up at big prices, though it's by no means clear the runner up isn't a very decent colt. You are basing a big part of your argument on his being a mediocre colt. The official handicapper disagrees. I don't say that's gospel in any way but I'm far from a lone voice in all this. All MG has to do is beat horses he's beaten before to come second to TDH. So presumably you accept his entitlement to come 2nd on form? Then it's about how good TDH is. I had him down as the best 2yo, yes, but he was no Frankel. The Dewhurst form looked less than pristine at the time and now looks decidedly dubious. The Doncaster form is style over substance (Cardini!?). I really hope he has trained on as I'd like to see a good contest.

Howellsy, he has to beat Shelir and Decrypt, as well as Phoenix of Spain and Skardu (who he has not beaten in a race) and the fav, so I will be laying places 2 3 and 4 and am already quite full at an average of 1.73 in the win market.

Figgis, I didn't look at the other races on the card, I just know the result of the Guineas will not stand up and yes Skardu will turn the form over.

magna has beaten only one horse outside of the 2000, namely phoenix by a head. One is 6/4 and one is 20/1.

in the guineas he beat emeraaty and skardu. we have the draw to blame for that, so actually there are 10 horses in here that he hasn't beaten, and with the relative prices for phoenix and skardu you really have to be a mug to side with him over them.

All MG has to do is beat horses he's beaten before to come second to TDH.

no

Ok, that comment was a bit lazy and not literally true. I get your argument about Skardu in theory, although he did beat Phoenix at Donny. As for Shelir, again, you're right but I have MG 11 lbs clear of that one. It's also true that Phoenix and Skardu are drawn much better. But I have a feeling the race might unfold away from the rail. Wow, if you think he hasn't got most of these covered, you really have taken a dim view of his form. I like strong views and will be the first to acknowledge it if you're right.

In my view Skardu would be more at home in the Britannia Stakes. He got lucky to be involved in a bottom of the barrel Craven Stakes and I'll be amazed if he gets close to picking up a Gp1 in Britain or Ireland this year.

Figgis, I didn't look at the other races on the card

So you deduced a draw bias from the running of one race?

i reckon your wrong mr charlton to try and get mg beat on this occasion , you have put up a strong opinion and looked for value so respect for that . best of luck

O'briens don't seem to running amazing at the moment, maybe went off the boil a bit

come on too darn hot, put this fat camel in his place

Well done Charlton.

God, a huge disappointment. Yep, got that one wrong. Congrats Figgis and Charlton. Losing face not quite as bad as losing money though.

totally predictable. very sweet watch that 

winners at 1/1, 2/1, 3/1 and 5/1 in the same race 

well done to the winners , charlton specifically as he was not impressed by mg and proved correct . next time put your neck on the block

MG did not run his race, I believe. The St James's will be definitive.

its a possibility 123 that he didnt , in hindsight to see him drifting to 15/8 suggested he was flat going into the race . then the punters smashed him back in to where he should,ve been price wise . time will tell . i didnt like pos personally , looks like a poor crop

Even though I was always against MG it would be disingenuous to make out that he ran right up to form yesterday. I Am Superman wouldn't have got that close in the Futurity. I have him 8lbs below his Guineas win but that still means he would've been beaten 3 lengths by Phoenix Of Spain, who put up a pretty good performance but a few pounds short of a top drawer 3yo miler. Even if MG returns to his Guineas form he's very unlikely to pick up another Gp1 over the trip.

To me PoS is exposed, and he was fresh and ready to run - he missed Newmarket for a minor issue - not "knackered" like TDH, and possibly MG too; two principals not performing in the same race from experience tells me the result is suspect, inconclusive at least.

I hope Gosden gets TDH spot-on for Royal Ascot, and thrashes PoS and others to smithereens; 4/1 is a price worth taking, I believe.

Each to his own, but I do not consider any FTO 3yo could be considered "exposed" irrespective of the quality of its 2yo form.

Maybe "exposed" may not be the appropriate description nevertheless, PoS has established solid but not outstanding form eg beaten comprehensively by TDH, and MG who was only having his 3rd race, but 2 Gp races in 2 weeks - a win and a 2nd; PoS only beat Watan (what has this horse done?).

I think Gosden despite being gracious in defeat and praising the performance of PoS he must be feeling fairly confident his charge can reverse placing with PoS at Ascot; the main adversary for TDH could be MG as this horse did not turn up in the Irish 2000G, I believe.

not in my eyes 123  tdh was at his peak and gosden wanted to run him as he felt it was his best chance . that horse has not grown / trained on imo . pos has , but , he could still bounce as hes clearly a little fragile . i think mg has it to come , he was given a harder race in the guineas than expected cos he got the draw bias and was pushed harder than he was ready for . result , a stiff in the irish . if you know about physical work you know that you can deliver when nearly right , but , you will be so overworked your gone for a while . you gotta have that regular work

Regards TDH: That did spring to mind, but I'm hoping the quick reappearance post the rushed Dante was a double indemnity. And, a 3-week break could rejuvenate his 2 yr old form.

Despite backing Magna Grecia for the English 2000G nevertheless, a frustrating time post that (betting wise) eg backed Hermosa for the Oaks (not 1000G both) - no show; backed TDH (2000G) - no show (consolation dividend from 'lays') thus St James's Palace - derailed; MG is value at 6/1 though (I strongly believe). But, still unconvinced by PoS despite his win.

Mehdaayih/Broome/AVD/Madh/SR (will only re-back on race day) to the rescue (hopefully/perhaps).

if you work physically , you gotta be in the groove . if their is a acid test you will be found out . they couldnt get mg back because he was too short in the first place

Would he have recovered from the pull-muscle and turn up at Royal Ascot for the St James's Palace a week on wednesday? Let's hope so along with TDH. Pheonix Of Spain beware!

Will Magna Grecia turn up? Let's hope so as it could determine the best 3 yr old miler; the betting suggests he'd with backers lined up for 8 and over (here). If declared, he'd be closer to 4/1 instead of the present 7/1; Pheonix Of Spain (PoS) and TDH are generally 7/4 and 7/2 respectively with the major bookies.

He'd be a gonna; matched at 14, and no taker at all since. PoS and TDH both shortened.

m grecia not declared nor is persian king

The market indicated Magna Grecia (MG) would be absent. As for Persian King (PK) he was taken out of the SJP some time ago. Maybe PK will show up for the Sussex or Champions Stakes in Ireland as he clealr did not stay 10f well enough to be considered a serious challenger for 10f Gp1 races.

Persian King was trapped out wide and just touched off in the French Derby over 1 mile two and half furlongs where the track record was broken. I don`t think there is any doubt he`is capable of contesting and winning any Gp1 over this distance alongside his conqueror at Chantilly.

Persian King massively overhyped and now getting found out, just like Magna Grecia.

that french derby winner might be a bit special, the arc winner perhaps?

Guineas form finally vindicated. I'm saying this sort of tongue in cheek but I really believe that was a top class piece of form stands' side that day. MG just got injured and hasn't been able to live up to it. Shine So Bright won a high class group 2 at York and has suffered for that exertion since, as has Laurens.

With the benefit of hindsight a better decision for the horse would be not to have run him today on his 1st race back on this atrocious ground. I hope he'd not be retired after today unless his previous injury is the cause of his poor run - he beat the winner in the 2000G.

Howellsy
19 Oct 19 15:37
Joined: 17 Mar 03 | Topic/replies: 1,007 | Blogger: Howellsy's blog
Guineas form finally vindicated. I'm saying this sort of tongue in cheek but I really believe that was a top class piece of form stands' side that day. MG just got injured and hasn't been able to live up to it. Shine So Bright won a high class group 2 at York and has suffered for that exertion since, as has Laurens.

jaysus. you really will never learn

He's been retired to stud after a dismal run on saturday. He's probably will be unable to recapture his previous form post the injury; correct decision.