Horse Antepost

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15 Nov 17 20:20
Date Joined: 07 Sep 15
| Topic/replies: 20,371 | Blogger: impossible123's blog
The hot-pot Altior is out with a 'wind problem', according to Henderson just a few moments ago. He will be confined to the box but would be ok for the Champion Chase without a probably without a prep race.

Un De Sceaux is 11/4 fav here. But will Douvan gatecrash this year? Let's hope so after the scratching of Altior.
Pause Switch to Standard View Tingle Creek (9th Dec)
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Report BarryM December 7, 2017 11:22 AM GMT
This has plumbed new depths, and the industry needs to do something about it. Other sports have a conduct charge of "bringing the sport into disrepute" and that's what Racing needs. The rules are not there, but this is as bad as doping imo, and we need a regime where a trainer can lose his licence for this. To add insult to injury, Mullins has tweeted that the horse worked on Thursday morning and disappointed him, and that's what he's not declared. It's just not acceptable to lie to the public in this way, it is quite obvious from the market they changed their mind at least 24 hrs earlier. Having made an firm statement that he was a definite runner a week ago, he has a responsibility to update the public the minute that changes.
Report unclepuncle December 7, 2017 11:28 AM GMT
No Special Tiara either. Obviously a bigger price runner yet no one moaning that there was no indication from De Bromhead that he was not going to run or why he wasn't declared?
Report Jb23 December 7, 2017 11:31 AM GMT
Final 7 for the @Betfair Tingle Creek  -  prices to follow : Ar Mad, Fox Norton, Politologue, Sir Valentino, Ordinary World, San Benedeto, Charbel
Report Jb23 December 7, 2017 11:31 AM GMT
The @Betfair Tingle Creek: 4/6 Fox Norton, 5/2 Politologue, 11/1 Charbel, 12/1 Ar Mad, 12/1 San Benedeto, 16/1 Ordinary World, 25/ Sir Valentino
Report geoff m December 7, 2017 12:33 PM GMT
amazing how the market knows the hoss will dissapoint in its work the following day.

FFS whats he going to do in his work 2 days b4 a G1 . A canter ' best. WHat a load of BOLLAX Mr Mullins. Punters taken 4 mugs on a daily basis.
Report Kabuta December 7, 2017 1:01 PM GMT
Well said geoff m & BarryM
Report Ahoy 1982 December 7, 2017 1:05 PM GMT
Pure lies from the mullins camp, I was told Tuesday that the horse was lame and would not run!
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 1:07 PM GMT
Poor unclepuncle has been tied in knots by this market saying what a master Willie is as UDS was firming up while saying take part at your own risk.

Well he was right about one thing at least.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 1:13 PM GMT
What should concern you all most is the bookies knew before the press.

They deliberately tried to coerce punters into backing Douvan at a shade of odds on a couple of days ago obviously with the knowledge he wouldnt run. That is corrupt imo.

The relationship between trainers and bookies cannot be allowed to be financial via sponsorship for information.

The old days where you bet antepost at bookies half the time putting your money on a non runner are returning. Betfair improved that by introducing transparency to antepost markets where we could all see what was going to run or not due to market strength before having a bet. The bookies now know before us again on running plans due to sponsored trainers.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 1:25 PM GMT
eric_morris 20 Nov 17 23:43 Joined: 27 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 4,506 | Blogger: eric_morris's blog

I am actually in favour now of trainers like Mullins, Tizzard and Henderson shutting tfu in terms of targets as it is more likely to make their sponsors and bookie owners money than punters. I have no regard for any of them and they dont owe us anything. Short term antepost markets should be binned as they are open to to much insider training on here and disinformation from connections isnt going to help either. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth after years of punting i am not too bothered for the future of the game when punters are treat with such contempt
Report geoff m December 7, 2017 1:27 PM GMT
a trainer was "sponsored" shall we say previously .Its just more transparent nowadays. Nowt changes.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 1:35 PM GMT
No it is an acceptance of malpractice. Just because it wasnt public before didnt mean it was acceptable then either. It should be explicitly banned, any financial payments from bookmaker to trainer should be logged and transferred via the BHA for transparency.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 1:41 PM GMT
Lets say trainer A accepts payments from bookmaker B and the deal is a percentage of antepost profits.

Now lets say trainer A continually advertises his horse as on target for an antepost race and doesnt withdraw him until a day or two before the race to maximise antepost non runner profit for the bookie and increasing his own payout as he is on a percentage of antepost profit.

Surely if the BHA were to be intermediary of payments from bookie to trainer they would have to act and investigate relationships where such patterns occurred bringing betting on racing into disrepute.
Report firstimevisor December 7, 2017 2:15 PM GMT
Eric-morris, you are barking up the wrong tree here. Trainers have the absolute right to not run any horse if they so choose before final decs. That's how it has been for about 200 years now and that's how it should continue.

Exchange markets have only been around for less than 20 years so if you are not happy with the rules of racing and their impact on ante-post betting then you should give up betting ante-post and/or campaign for the end to ante-post betting altogether or on the exchanges.

Leave those of us who accept the laws of ante-post betting  and the risks involved to get on with it because we all have the option to wait till the overnight markets are up.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 2:18 PM GMT
I dont care what trainers do but any financial transactions between them and bookmakers needs to be transferred vis the BHA to prevent malpractice.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 2:19 PM GMT
‘Sponsored trainers’ is NOT 200 years old.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 2:22 PM GMT
Yes i am in favour of short term antepost markets being binned due to disinformation from trainers, sometimes deliberate.
Report firstimevisor December 7, 2017 2:31 PM GMT
A week is a long time in horse racing. As uncle has pointed out there were other horses entered but not declared but nobody seems to mind.

I don't believe there is anything like as much disinformation from trainers as you do. Misinformation yes, but that's not deliberately misleading and the well-being of horses can change a lot in a week.
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 2:36 PM GMT
You and i have totally different viewpoints just lets agree to that.
Report firstimevisor December 7, 2017 2:41 PM GMT
Absolutely dead right there
Report IrisDeBalme December 7, 2017 2:46 PM GMT
I can't believe they reopened the race in the morning... allowing other runners to be entered ...

I backed POLITILOGUE as Nichols compares him to Twist Magic... Will be annoyed if he gets chinned by the reformed runners.

People who defend Mullins are bookies... he is an utter disgrace... I'm glad Dog can is not running ... but it's not right for punters to lose out like this.

This market has fluctuated before ... so people got diners burnt twice in this would he ...wont he acenario
Report IrisDeBalme December 7, 2017 2:48 PM GMT
Apols for spelling errors :)

Tough typing on Samsung phone ;)
Report sageform December 7, 2017 3:48 PM GMT
Not sure about reopening the race but Fox Norton and my choice Politologue would have been the first 2 in the market anyway. I like Fox Norton but I just get the feeling that Politologue has improved from last year and for the shorter trip.
Report impossible123 December 7, 2017 3:51 PM GMT
Mr Mullins/Ricci, what pair of f...... barstewards. I believe sanctions against these two disreputable individuals are long overdue eg similar events last year in the same race, and Vautour (RIP) in the Cheltenham Festival; I hope this pair would consider keeping their charges away from the Cheltenham Festival this year, at least, as a respect to racegoers, supporters and punters of this sport.

The BHA must act to prevent the same happening again next year and in the future otherwise it certainly will bring the gaming/sport of horse racing into disrepute, in my opinion.
Report sageform December 7, 2017 4:00 PM GMT
So why does anyone back their horses until they line up on the day?
Report The Headmaster December 7, 2017 4:32 PM GMT
Why don't you self-exclude and leave the rest of us to it then, ybm, thanks.
Report The Headmaster December 7, 2017 4:34 PM GMT
Iris, the race was not reopened to allow other horses to be entered, only to offer decs for horses that had already been entered.  Standard practice for all races.
Report Hibore December 7, 2017 4:36 PM GMT
Backing Antepost always comes with a wealth warning. I personally enjoy trying to nick a decent price about a horse that if it does run will be miles shorter. Backing Fox Norton 2 weeks ago @ 7/2 when I thought he'd be up against UDS as the main rival in the Tingle made sense as he'd only be 6/4 or 7/4 on the day.

I wouldn't consider backing Mullins horses for reasons already mentioned.

You pay your money and take your choice....I've also backed Sceau Royal antepost so you can laugh when that doesn't run or drifts to 8/1.
Report impossible123 December 7, 2017 4:58 PM GMT
The defending champion UDS who is sound but taken out here to run in the Group 2 Hilly Way Chase on sunday at Cork at the same distance on similar ground is farcical and nonsensical, to say the least. I believe even Mr Mullins can find that difficult to explain and justify to the racing public. I also wonder if the connections of UDS has had a say in this shambolic decision though? Or could UDS be less sound to do himself justice here?
Report FELTFAIR December 7, 2017 5:33 PM GMT
Mullins knew you were on Un De Sceaux Bungle and you would jinx the horse.
Report buddeliea December 7, 2017 6:04 PM GMT
How strange......choosing a grade 2 over a grade 1.......same weekend, and a grade 1 he won last year and on ground he enjoys.
Very strange indeed.
Report ReaseHeath December 7, 2017 6:07 PM GMT
I would n't say it's farcical and nonsensical though I take the point about defending champion and Grade 1 vs Grade 2. The syndicate who own UDS are Cork based I believe - it could be something as mundane that it was too late to make the switch at final decs stage because they can't change their plans to travel to Sandown at 48 hours notice. The weather might yet disrupt flight plans over the weekend anyway.I'm not saying that is the case merely raising it as a possibility. -

Generally I don't bet on these markets because I don't like guessing which horses are going to turn up - I accept others see that as a stimulating challenge and some of the threads are of great value anyway in terms of information which can still be relevant on the day of the race.

With regards to Mullins, I'm not particularly trying to defend or criticise him but I think there are a few imperatives which should be apparent to everyone by now:

1. He chooses the races (so Ricci's thoughts should be taken with a pinch of salt - I would n't particularly want to hear Mullins' thoughts on investment banking either).
2. Horse welfare comes first (he does n't want to risk Douvan bombing out - I don't think he's quite as risk averse as Henderson but he is possibly becoming more cautious).   
3. It is a stated goal of his to have his big guns avoid each other until they absolutely have to meet (presumably in part at least to maximise win prize money).

I might not like these things but they're beyond my control so I don't really see the point in moaning about them. I don't like the fact that the market seems to know what's happening ahead of any official announcement either but I'm not entirely sure how that can be avoided - beyond the trainer and his family, there might be the work rider, the farrier, the vet, the bloke who drives the horse box to the Curragh and the rest of his staff who all know what happened on Tues-Wed and all of whom have extended networks of friends and family asking them what's going on with Douvan. How do you police that?

I don't like the bookmaker sponsored trainer blogs - clearly they are, at the very least, a potential threat to the integrity of racing, I'd like to see an regualtory intervention from the BHA/HRI but I'm not holding my breath. I don't think Mullins has a blog though?
Report ReaseHeath December 7, 2017 6:09 PM GMT
By the way, they might have missed a trick by not entering Min here - it would have been a great opportunity to see how he shapes up in a 2 mile Grade 1 in open company.
Report buddeliea December 7, 2017 6:16 PM GMT
Wonder if we will ever have a Well Chief,Moscow Flyer,Azertyuiop race again outside the spring festivals.
A race still talked about now and probably for years to come
Don't look like it.
Oh well.
Report sageform December 7, 2017 6:55 PM GMT
It is not the final decisions by the Mullins camp that make people wonder about the game, it is the positive statements about both horses that they issued over the past 2 weeks that stink. If they entered and kept quiet and then withdrew, it would not be an issue at all for me. I wonder if Mullins has made a decision to try to get the Irish Championship back from Elliott?
Report eric_morris December 7, 2017 7:04 PM GMT
ReaseHeath...i believe the blogs are just a front so a relationship can be achieved between bookmaker and trainer making contact for the bookmaker to gain advance information from the trainer which the bookmaker will use for betting purposes before it is in the public domain.

The trainer can claim he knows nothing of what the bookmaker does with the information. The bottom line is the bookies arent doing it for the wealth of the punter and it needs intervention from the BHA to prevent it being taken advantage of. All contracts between the two parties should be controlled by and payments made by the BHA from one tothe other.
Report dunlaying December 7, 2017 7:18 PM GMT
It is a shame that the race has cut up so badly.
Sir Valentino is overpriced at 25/1 e/w . Difficult to see him beating Fox Norton but he has place claims .
Report firstimevisor December 7, 2017 7:34 PM GMT
Sageform, most trainers would much prefer to say nothing at all but when they have journalists and reporters on their case every day they don't have much choice.

This coming weekend Mullins has 3 entered for a novice chase,4 in the Durkan,2 in a novice hurdle, 2 in the Hilly Way and 5 in a beginners chase.And that's just a normal weekend's entry typical of any big yard. None of these races have much ante-post interest and so nobody really cares what runs or where.These entries were made on Tuesday and final decs are tomorrow morning. In that period any of these horses could have worked well, worked bad, got a serious injury such as a tendon, got a minor muscle injury etc.

I am in no doubt that early this week Mullins intended running Douvan in the Tingle Creek. If he subsequently wasn't entirely happy with the horse then he is right in not running. The horse galloped on Tuesday so he had to be ok to do that. If he didn't take that gallop well then so be it. But people questioning how any horse could be ok on a Saturday but have a problem a few days later, should be shot on sight.
Report ReaseHeath December 7, 2017 7:45 PM GMT
I think shooting them is a bit strong but I understand the sentiment Grin.

Going back to Douvan - we had a period of about a week where we had an update from the owner, the trainer, the jockey and the injured jockey - driven I suppose by competitiveness for (exclusive) news within the racing media - I don't think that's helpful to the punter.
Report ReaseHeath December 7, 2017 7:47 PM GMT
^ and the trainer's son, forgot him -
Report betilyerded December 7, 2017 8:39 PM GMT
Too much bleating on here. Its an antepost market at the end of the day and no one can ever be certain that a horse will run until the flag falls.

I backed Special Tiara and lost my money but I'll get over it and so should everyone else.
Report buddeliea December 7, 2017 8:56 PM GMT long as its all above board and no hint of anything untoward going on,we all take antepost on the chin with horses that don't end up running.
Problem is with this yard,one can never be sure,well I for one cant be.
Report impossible123 December 7, 2017 9:36 PM GMT
The behaviour of Mr Mullins this time is not about the risks and trepidations of making an antepost bet as a punter but his mistreatment of any ardent and genuine racegoer and/or punter; he withdrew the defending champion of this race to run in a lower grade race the following day despite the well-being of the horse. If that is not a despicable behaviour from a top trainer I'd like to be enlightened, please.
Report firstimevisor December 7, 2017 9:50 PM GMT
The only despicable behaviour is coming from yourself again impossible123. As you know, he didn't withdraw UDS or even Douvan. You have to be declared before you can be withdrawn and neither were declared to run.
And if he chooses to take the option of running UDS in Cork on Sunday, where he also has an entry, then he's perfectly entitled to do so and he doesn't have to justify it to you, me or anybody else.
Report woodmanchester December 7, 2017 11:59 PM GMT
Nobody cant beat this. Originally lumped on Altior ages ago, then Douvan when the former scratched!

You can only beat me if you backed Un De Sceux as well! Cry

In future, only ever backing NRMB. Ante-post is the pits of pits (for large bets anyway), unless you know you got a deffo runner

Mate done well out of it. He got 5/2 ticket Fox Norton, 8/13 now!
Report buddeliea December 8, 2017 7:12 AM GMT
In my honest opinion,it is not advisable to back any Mullins horse antepost unless you spot what may be an interesting one that has gone under the radar,as I managed to do with Bacardys last season.yes it went pear shaped at Cheltenham but it was a lot shorter on the day.
Anyone taking shortish prices on a Mullins horse antepost needs to think hard before doing so,and then don't do iit!!
Personally I just don't trust the yard and his main owner neither.
That's my thoughts now and going forward.
Report Desmond Orchard December 8, 2017 1:10 PM GMT
impossible123 11 Nov 17 20:48 Joined: 07 Sep 15 | Topic/replies: 5,060 | Blogger: impossible123's blog
Will call Mullins' recent good soundbites about Faugheen bluff, and will lay accordingly.

From the Morgiana thread

So when you don't see it coming it's despicable, but when you think you do, you try and profit from less well informed punters than yourself? And you can't even get that right. Utter moron.
It's sad for the race mind you, I'm sure everyone wants to see the big guns going at each other. I'm not sure I understand the desire to avoid each other, if I'm honest. It's not like they're protecting stud values. As Bud said, that Tingle Creek will live long in the memory.
Betting wise, if there was another runner I'd take on the fav with two each-way. As it's only two places, I'll sit this one out.
Report ReaseHeath December 8, 2017 1:16 PM GMT
Ordinary World non runner (coughing) so down to 6 runners now...
Report impossible123 December 8, 2017 1:22 PM GMT
Beware! Never, ever back any Mullins/Ricci horses in antepost for any race here because a huge majority of the time they fail to show.
Report FELTFAIR December 8, 2017 1:44 PM GMT
This game`s not for you Bungle.
Report firstimevisor December 8, 2017 1:44 PM GMT
You very obviously backed UDS even though you rarely miss an opportunity to tell us that you never back Mullins horses ante-post.
Report Autocue December 8, 2017 5:46 PM GMT
I'm wondering if there is something amiss at the Tizzard yard as his best horses aren't firing. It didn't occur to me after Cue Card and Thistlecrack were well beaten as there were plausible reasons, but his promising novice White Moon ran too bad to be true today. He was up in grade but ran out of gas a long way from home and couldn't finish ahead of a horse that was beaten after the second flight. Also the betting was revealing. He was favourite yesterday evening but drifted all day today then during the race his price suddenly jumped from 4 to 9 when passing the stands first time even though he was travelling and jumping well at that time. Somebody knew he was going to run a stinker. There could be an upset tomorrow though my tipping is all to **** these days.
Report Autocue December 8, 2017 5:46 PM GMT
I'm wondering if there is something amiss at the Tizzard yard as his best horses aren't firing. It didn't occur to me after Cue Card and Thistlecrack were well beaten as there were plausible reasons, but his promising novice White Moon ran too bad to be true today. He was up in grade but ran out of gas a long way from home and couldn't finish ahead of a horse that was beaten after the second flight. Also the betting was revealing. He was favourite yesterday evening but drifted all day today then during the race his price suddenly jumped from 4 to 9 when passing the stands first time even though he was travelling and jumping well at that time. Somebody knew he was going to run a stinker. There could be an upset tomorrow though my tipping is all to **** these days.
Report Autocue December 8, 2017 5:47 PM GMT
I'm wondering if there is something amiss at the Tizzard yard as his best horses aren't firing. It didn't occur to me after Cue Card and Thistlecrack were well beaten as there were plausible reasons, but his promising novice White Moon ran too bad to be true today. He was up in grade but ran out of gas a long way from home and couldn't finish ahead of a horse that was beaten after the second flight. Also the betting was revealing. He was favourite yesterday evening but drifted all day today then during the race his price suddenly jumped from 4 to 9 when passing the stands first time even though he was travelling and jumping well at that time. Somebody knew he was going to run a stinker. There could be an upset tomorrow though my tipping is all to **** these days.
Report Autocue December 8, 2017 5:49 PM GMT
Sorry about that, the site wasn't responding.
Report impossible123 December 8, 2017 9:01 PM GMT
Is this how the Racing Post see the fiasco about the recent events concerning the Tingle Creek Chase? Little or no comments from them but this is from one of their head writers, I believe.

"No Douvan but get over it! It is still a Saturday to savour so just enjoy it."

No Altior; no Douvan; no Un De Sceaux the defending champion who has chosen to run in a lower grade race instead. A Gp 1 race now has degenerated into a sub-standard renewal resembling a glorified handicap.

I've planned to go to Sandown tomorrow but definitely not now. I'll watch the Henry VIII Novices Chase for Cheltenham pointers, but not the Tingle Creek this year.
Report woodmanchester December 9, 2017 12:41 AM GMT
Enjoy 8/13 Fox Norton. No, thanks ever so very much. The race is now a debacle although Altior and Douvan withdrawals I believe have substance. Went in large both, so no pocket talking. If Fox goes on to win the King George, I'll post a naked picture of myself on here! Laugh

Also, think Impossible getting unwarranted grief. I find his opinions worth listening to (a regular poster unlike some who only rear their ugly head to criticize) and here's something for everybody, changing your mind is not a hanging offence
Report buddeliea December 9, 2017 7:04 AM GMT
I don't regard the sandown card as something to savour at all.
Henry v111 is interesting,but the TC is poor as is the rest of the card in my opinion.
Coulple of fair races at Aintree,but a Saturday to savour?not for me.
Agree,impossible I too think  gets unfair treatment on here.
Report buddeliea December 9, 2017 7:54 AM GMT
Just read this whole thread,sad I know,but I find it interesting.
It's clear that there are people on here that care a lot about the sport and it's integrity,and it's clear that there are people who won't have a bad word said about Mullins and co.
For me the integrity of the sport and Mullins and co are very much related.
I hope at some stage soon the media,the ruling bodies of the sport,and anyone else of note,take a good look at the situation.
Too much is happening for coincidence imo.
Report sageform December 9, 2017 7:57 AM GMT
Nearly all trainers seem to have poor runs but when some are winning, the odd blip can be due to an individual horse rather than the whole yard. Nicholls had his first 2 tailed off and pulled up yesterday but then the next won. Then Modus ran a shocker. Tizzard had two winners and a good second then White Moon ran a shocker. I would be more worried about Tom George whose horses are running OK but too many end up fading towards the finish and Hobbs and King are on a very low win percentage recently. I have always been led to believe that flu jabs have a big influence and that trainers tend to do most of them at the same time.
Report sageform December 9, 2017 7:59 AM GMT
Still happy with 8.6 Politologue but it will probably be cancelled now that I have actually beaten SP.
Report irishone December 9, 2017 9:06 AM GMT
its a shame people aren't more knowledgable about horses
Report sageform December 9, 2017 9:53 AM GMT
I have been around horses all my 73 years as a farmer, horse owner and breeder on a very small scale and now as an armchair fan but I am still learning!
The average punter has no real concept of what horses are actually like to break in, ride or feed never mind train and race.
Report geoff m December 9, 2017 10:12 AM GMT
Doesnt matter how many years folks have been round horses its uncanny how a market can tell you 24 hours in advance of how the horse is going to be in his work the following day.
Report FELTFAIR December 9, 2017 10:22 AM GMT
Hard to oppose the favourite.Win bet.
Report sageform December 9, 2017 12:19 PM GMT
You only notice the ones that shorten and win. There a re a few of course that the trainer has more info than us-2yo's especially but plenty more where they don't. It was obvious from the market that both of the other trainers thought they would beat Nicholls in the first at Aintree but they were soon put in their place.
Report Desmond Orchard December 9, 2017 12:41 PM GMT
Trainers only know when they won't win. Not when they will. You can't know what shape your opposition is in and so no matter how fit your horse is, you're only guessing.
Report Desmond Orchard December 9, 2017 12:41 PM GMT
Trainers only know when they won't win. Not when they will. You can't know what shape your opposition is in and so no matter how fit your horse is, you're only guessing.
Report sageform December 9, 2017 1:21 PM GMT
True Desmond. However, when you have Frankel you have a rough idea even if you come against Nathaniel on debut.
Report sageform December 9, 2017 3:00 PM GMT
Yee Haaaaa> For once I took a decent ante post price and it came good. I feared the worst when he sweated up so much but jumped for fun and brave in a finish.
Report firstimevisor December 9, 2017 4:04 PM GMT
Well done Sageform, great round of jumping there.
Report woodmanchester December 9, 2017 5:37 PM GMT
Nice one, Sage! Cool
Report irishone December 9, 2017 5:58 PM GMT
spot on sage , i have three and not a week goes by without a niggle.
punters dont realise how hard it is to get a horse to a race fit
let alone win the race
Report impossible123 December 9, 2017 6:41 PM GMT
'sageform', well done! That is the joy of getting it right, and commiseration to those that backed Douvan and/or UDS.

There are several posters here who are not conducive to the majority of my posts, regardless, but that has not deterred me from posting; this is a forum and as such, every opinion/post absent of personal insult and/or infantile behaviour are acceptable to me. I also have several posters here on 'ignore' as their contributions do not sway and/or influence my opinion or betting - I do not need them, period.

My previous specialty is Financial in the City, and what was spouted by Mr Chapman using 'Insider Trading' as a comparison to the shenanigans of the scratchings of two of Mullins' runners in the the Tingle Creek Chase at the final decs this year on the Opening Show this morning to betting Antepost was a clear indication the individual had little knowledge of what 'Insider Trading' was.

There was no mention on why UDS was also withdrawn from the race despite the horse's trainer clearly stated UDS was there as a back-up should Douvan not make the line-up. Also, Chapman needed not to claim to be speaking on behalf of punters - he does not, and do not be deluded, Mr Chapman; Fitzy and Harvey did no better - they were conspicuously silent, and looked sheepish, to say the least. I guess they were also feeding from the same trough financed by the bookies hence the uneasiness!
Report impossible123 December 9, 2017 6:46 PM GMT
sageform, well done!
Report eric_morris December 9, 2017 9:32 PM GMT
We can all be thankful for the fact those insiders who knew Douvan wasnt running and were backing Fox Norton instead before news was released did their money.
Report unclepuncle December 9, 2017 10:14 PM GMT
Well done Sage - presumably part of your reason for taking the 13/2 antepost when you did was that you felt there was a really good chance that Douvan wouldn't show up so well done for using your brains.Grin

The withchunt againt Willie from some people is really getting tired and I'm glad these peple lost money - no doubt these same people will back or lay Mullins horses in the future (Footpad for example) in the hope of beating the market and then crow about when it goes there way.Cry

Again there seems to be no interest (either here or in the press)about the situation with Special Tiara, who is after all the reigning Champion chaser, who wasn't declared, even when they were re-offered the chance in the full knowledge that Douvan and UDS were absent. Double standards??
Report buddeliea December 10, 2017 8:43 AM GMT
Do we know how Special Tiara is? Did we get any quotes from his connections in the lead up to this race?

We certainly had quotes re Douvan and UDS.We were led to believe one of them would run.Neither did for whatever reason,well we know why UDS did not hes running in a grade 2 today instead,thats another reigning champion.
I am so glad I do not indulge in short priced horses antepost,and I do feel sympathy for those that did on this occasion cos they have been put away imo.
I for one ill continue to say how I feel about Mullins and I would with anyone that I feel is putting the integrity of our sport in jeopardy,and I genuinely feel they are.
Its not coincidence....,.. this sort of thing happens too much with this lot imo.
What happened with Douvan this time last year was bad,and what happened with Vatour in the lead up to his Ryanair was an absolute disgrace.
Report FOYLESWAR December 10, 2017 10:23 AM GMT
a very good performance from the nicholls horse yesterday and an attractive price for the champion come march ,matt chapman said  after the tingle creek "we all know adouvan and altior are head and shoulders above these lot " ............ how does he know that ?,you cant be certain how well douvan has recovered from his setback and altior wont run untill march according to hendo .  politilogue is improving and nicholls said after the exeter win he would come on for the race , politilogue should continue his progression and what with the doubts surrounding the 2 at the head of the market come march the 10/1 shortly after the tingle creek and 8s now could look very big indeed , who knows if altior or douvan will make the gig ?  afew thought that fox norton should have won given a better ride ! may be so ! but nicholls said politilogue idled  when in front  on the run in and the fact that tizzard said they are stepping fox norton up in distance  next time suggests  to me that they think the winner won on merit .
Report woodmanchester December 10, 2017 10:43 AM GMT
At their best, Altior and Douvan would make mincemeat out of Politologue and Fox Norton
Report firstimevisor December 10, 2017 10:52 AM GMT
Could buddilea and impossible123 explain their apparent lack of outrage as to why the likes of top notch, gods own and josses hill are not running in the grade 1 at punchestown today but were instead declared for a grade 2 over the same trip at huntington. Despicable behaviour from the connections i presume?
Report FOYLESWAR December 10, 2017 10:58 AM GMT
thats the point ! "at their best " will they be at their best and who knows how much improvement is to come from nicholls horse ,at the prices now and considering the "ifs and buts  i know which in would rather be on at this stage , for one reason or another  doubts about special tiara ,altior ,douvan ,fox norton probably stepping up in dist ...........not a lot left !
Report Desmond Orchard December 10, 2017 11:03 AM GMT
But the point is, Woody, they're not at their best, or they would've lined up yesterday. We might never see them at their best again.
Besides which, hype aside, I'm not sure what piece of form puts Altior head and shoulders above those two horses.

As regards Imps diatribe......the usual double standards apply as he openly admitted to having this seasons Arc thread pulled because he didn't like the exchange between two other posters that had no bearing on him whatsoever. So he can keep his sanctimonious twaddle about forums and opinions to himself. I firmly believe, all things being equal etc etc etc
Report FOYLESWAR December 10, 2017 11:04 AM GMT
my replys  taking ages to their best ! thats the point do you take a chance  on douvan and altior being at their best at short odds .............
Report Desmond Orchard December 10, 2017 11:05 AM GMT
Mine too, sorry Foyles, basically repeated what you said
Report FOYLESWAR December 10, 2017 11:07 AM GMT
the hype around douvan and to a lesser extent altior is incredible but welcome imo as it lengthens the odds on the overlooked horses and gives good value opportunitys
Report buddeliea December 10, 2017 11:46 AM GMT
I have no idea why those horses were not entered in Ireland today.
Their does seem to be a shyness for British trainers to go over there in the winter months though,and aside from the odd exceptions pretty much that's always been the case as far as I recall.
I don't think it despicable behaviour or have outrage over the decision for UDS to run in a grade 2 rather than defend his victory in the TC,just found it strange. What I did not like was the trainer saying that one of them would come over,and neither did,and the betting patterns on here raised the issue of whats been discussed on here,and also just now on ATR.
Messrs Henderson and co gave us no indication that their horses may go to Ireland,and no iffy betting patterns arised,so basically I have no outrage there either.
If this was the 1st time Mullins and co were discussed on here and in the media re this sort of thing...fair enough,but it aint!!
Report woodmanchester December 10, 2017 12:03 PM GMT
Yes fellas, ive been put away and lost far too much already betting short on horses not even getting a run coz of fitness issues (lumped on Faugheen for the Champion this year, excellent prices too and we know what happened there - That's the reason didn't back him for next March before his recent saunter, despite attractive odds). Thought Thistlecrack a brilliant horse but wouldn't touch him with a barge pole now, he's another one who doesn't seem to stand up to racing. Excellent for the sport if they bounce back. Sprinter Sacre did it, so who knows?
Report firstimevisor December 10, 2017 1:04 PM GMT
Where or when did Mullins say that one or other would definitely go for the Tingle Creek?

I can answer that myself- he didn't say any such thing. What he did say was that assuming all 3 horses satisfied him during the week then one would run in each of the 3 big races this weekend. Douvan didn't satisfy him and he was therefore correct not to run and he stuck to his original plan with the other 2.This nonsense that UDS would definitely go for the Tingle Creek if Douvan didn't is purely a product of Imp123's twisted imagination and is proof that if you spit out a lie often enough then people will assume its true.

And to keep regurgitating last year's Tingle Creek betting fiasco and blaming Mullins for it is more pure nonsense.That was 100% caused by bookies and trigger happy punters as you are well aware
Report buddeliea December 10, 2017 2:07 PM GMT
Mullins said: "He has entries in the Hilly Way, John Durkan and Tingle Creek. I would say that the Tingle Creek looks like the one at the moment.

"We have got to pencil one in and the other races will be considered, but the Tingle Creek would be number one. Everything has been very good with him."

Ok,not definite I concede,but that was the plan.

I have no issue if a horse don't get declared cos it aint right,of course I don't,but I do have an issue when these betting fiascos seem to revolve around this yard.
Anyway,i have my opinion on this yard and his main owner.......I just don't trust them,and cannot see that changing anytime soon, but I doubt if you or anyone else are really bothered about my opinion.

As for UDS,if Mullins never intended running him in the TC,then I will apologise for saying he did,i honestly thought he had after reading through this thread,and must admit I thought he would be over in the absence of fact I thought he should defend his win anyway,but again that's just my opinion.
Report sageform December 10, 2017 2:35 PM GMT
unclepuncle, I backed Politologue as soon as the market came up after backing him at Exeter and reading the post race comments from Paul Nicholls. He hasn't been that bullish since Kauto Star. I will be just as keen in March regardless of who else turns up. I believe that Altior was head and shoulders the best  novice last year and there is every chance that IF they get him back he will demolish everything but after last March, I would not back Douvan with free money.
Report impossible123 December 10, 2017 6:24 PM GMT
The front two in the betting market both have a doubt about them eg wind op might not be totally successful for Altior, and pelvic injury could prevent Douvan performing at his best again. If so, Politologue could be the one to capitalise unless Min shows up which is most likely if Douvan (same ownership) defects.
Report eric_morris December 10, 2017 6:39 PM GMT
It could be all is not well with Douvan and he is being used as a decoy by the trainer to leave easier fields for his other animals.
Report woodmanchester December 11, 2017 12:38 AM GMT
With reference to Dec 9th post, seems you've all been spared a naked picture of me. Fox silly price. Thought over-rated after previous victory and so it proved
Report irishone December 11, 2017 8:14 AM GMT
lot of people seem to think that irish trainers should run all their best horses in the english races
why should this be the case ?
Report impossible123 December 11, 2017 10:08 AM GMT
irishone, that had never entered mu mind. UDS was the reigning champion; Mullins stipulated he was left in at the final dec as a precaution should Douvan not make it.

Douvan and UDS failed to show despite ideal conditions for the latter.
Report sageform December 11, 2017 4:28 PM GMT
So every horse should be expected to "defend" its title regardless of conditions, alternative options or owner preference. It was clear that the Cork race was the plan with all the owners and family present with scarves etc. Why risk coming over to Sandown where a) he might not have won. b) Travel arrangements for horse and owners might have been difficult. If they had come over and stayed in London, they might still be there!
Report firstimevisor December 11, 2017 5:21 PM GMT
Exactly sageform. On the same weekend last year, Douvan, UDS and Djakadam were kept apart and had their comeback runs in the same 3 races and all 3 won. This time only 2 of the 3 were ready to run and the Tingle Creek was the race that missed out in preference to the home races, and I'm sure the hassle of travelling in the conditions was one of the considerations. But to question the man's integrity because of where he runs his horses is beyond a joke.
Report Ibrahima Sonko December 17, 2017 8:52 PM GMT
Anyone recall the trainer telling us Douvan was lame prior to the TC ?

Sporting life have changed the story on their website, he was lame prior to TC. Now they have changed it to not totally happy.
Report firstimevisor December 17, 2017 10:20 PM GMT
No.He galloped on the Tuesday before the TC and the next day he wasn't totally happy with how he came out of that gallop.
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