Queen Anne Stakes - 17th June.

I've taken the view that Toronado is going to be incredibly difficult to beat. Obviously the York run needs forgiving but if you take the chance he's back to his best he should stamp his authority over these no problem. I can honestly see him going off 5/4 on the day. I'm not given to hyperbole but in fairness to the Hannon's, when they say they've got a good one they usually do and Senior described this as "the best I've trained" last season. Given Canford Cliffs was able to tonk Goldikova, if you take his words literally, and I don't necessarily, Toronado is past the post against this lot. I think DA and T were just two very good milers last season, and I see nothing of their class amongst the older horses.

I am factoring in Olympic Glory not running (entered up this weekend and quiet whispers suggesting he may, only may, be tried in the POW) but if he does I still think Toronado is the better horse. I think Verrazano is a victim of recency bias, DOW showed much improved form in the QA last year so Verrazano must do the same - disagree completely.

Magician presumably goes POW after Tattersalls Gold Cup this weekend, Gold Fun not entered. Sky Lantern heads to the Duke of Cambridge. Soft Falling Rain not good enough.

This is a bit of a cop out to sum up, but if he's back to last season's form he'll take this comfortably. Just a niggling doubt about forgiving the York run and we haven't heard much from Hannon - although T was spotted in a gallops video for QIPCO at end of April. He also was mentioned on the stable blog after the Lockinge.

I think he offers massive antepost value at 7/2 and have bet accordingly.

I had OG very marginally better than Toronado by the end of last season, but preparation is often more of a deciding factor than ability so I would definitely favour Toronado here. He will be primed for this race just as OG was for the Lockinge and I don't believe OG showed improved form there so he's going to be vulnerable as the season progresses. There's also the possibility that Toronado will improve this year. The one that I'd really like to back is Soft Falling Rain, I rated that a very big performance in the Gp2 at Newmarket last year before he bombed out on the soft ground at Ascot. This year I thought he was gradually being brought to a peak for a big race but he had problems leading up to the Lockinge and his participation is in doubt, I'm hoping the situation improves and he runs.

yep, he spiked a temperature on the way over here according to trainer and missed a weeks training. A small setback you would say but they cannot afford any more.

Does anyone know the record of seasonal debutants in the Queen Anne? Canford Cliffs had a prep for the yard but I suppose the circumstances this time around are different given they have OG so have obviously mapped out the race for Toronado.

I agree looking at the list of names it does not look a stellar renewal. Good point about Verrazano and the case for recency bias, i.e comparisons with Declaration of War. However, DOW at least had winning Turf form and the Lockinge did not look a particularly strong race this year. Verrazano is certain to improve but he has never won a race on Turf before, so it would be a pretty unorthodox way of going about things for a Queen Anne winner!! At least Animal Kingdom had achieved that when he tried, being a form U.S dirt winner.

Maybe 7/2 is a standout bet for Toronado. I have him in all my TTF lists so will just leave it at that methinks.

7/1 about Verrazano has gone now fwiw. Tops 6/1.

Sint

Since the Queen Anne became a Gr1 no horse has won first time up, but I do not know how many fancied horses have tried tbh.

11 times the Queen Anne has been run as a Gr1.

Of the 11 winners 7 had their prep in the Lockinge. Surprisingly only 2 (Canford cliffs & Frankel) won at Newbury.
2 winners came from the Prix d'Ispahan.

O'Brien has won it 3 times. Two of his winners were beat first time up in the Lockinge (Haradasun & Declaration Of War).

Hannon snr has won it twice (Paco Boy & Canford Cliffs). Both horse had their seasonal debut in the Lockinge.

yep, prep can be everything in these races, bit different from a Classic.

Some price changes after Lockinge.

Toronado is a top price 5/2, Verrazano 9/2, OG now 8/1.

Looking a weakish renewal this year.

The one that I'd really like to back is Soft Falling Rain, I rated that a very big performance in the Gp2 at Newmarket last year before he bombed out on the soft ground at Ascot. This year I thought he was gradually being brought to a peak for a big race but he had problems leading up to the Lockinge and his participation is in doubt, I'm hoping the situation improves and he runs.


agree with this figgis as was all over him for lochinge before his withdrawal...just have a nagging doubt about his soundness, as i didn't really like the way he moved in dubai but de kock did state he wasn't training him hard for that race with europe in mind this season...anyway if de kock can get him back to his best he remains a colt of serious potential i have just struggled with his overall form and think his newmarket race may have been slightly overrated...i certainly gambled on this race being gospel but have my reservations now...just not sure

am very surprised to see verrazano in at 4-1 7-2 and 3-1 in places - his top performances in the states were in slowly run affairs and he still has a lot to prove in regards being a top class miler on turf

as much as i respect toronado he is very short here first time up and has to overcome a deplorable effort at york and he will have to be at his best to win here, also i still believe he beat a slightly under-par dawn approach at goodwood whose form appeared to tail off after a very hard campaign earlier in the season

olympic glory who i opposed in the lochinge and who recently disappointed once again on a turning track... represents a tad of value here imo back on a straight track...yes you could argue the lochinge was not a great race on paper, however he was a convincing winner and proved his versatility in regards ground which marks him down now as a proper group 1 miler given a straight track and has now backed this up on 3 occasions...i am going to play him, however i could stop 10 tonne truck at present

TORONADO is a phenomenal horse when you catch him right. The problem is he has twice ran as if there were breathing problems- once in the 2000 Guineas, and once at York in the Juddmonte.

5/2 is short, although he can go well fresh, but you have to consider how much VERRAZANO is expected to step forward.


I actually think Toronado will be prepared for Breeders Cup mile this season and is tailor made for fast American turf.

I think if they could actually keep Toronado fit and well and without any issues mid race, he would be close to unbeatable. I think he would stay 10f as well.

He is one to consider in-running- you usually know if he is okay after 2 furlongs- if he looks keen then lay him, if he looks like he has been put to sleep and breezing along, he is in good order.

I would have thought that connections were hoping to keep Olympic Glory and Toronado apart but maybe both will run here. Looking at their breeding and how they have run I can not have either staying 10f at Gr1 level. Plus Olympic Glory's obvious liking for a straight track (highlighted long ago by Howlesy) I think it makes sense to run him here also.

I feel the jury is still out regarding Toronado. He is a Gr1 winner and ran a fine race in defeat in last seasons St James, but both if those runs were against Dawn Approach on the down grade. It wouldn't be the biggest shock to see him win but I would like to see evidence of his true ability first especially after his flat tuning at York at the end if last term.


Olympic Glory looked very impressive in the LocKinge and at 8-1 is worth a tickle.
My main bet though is on the Ballydoyle colt.
His form in America is very good. It tailed off slightly which can be expected after such a long campaign. He looked to handle the surface fine at Newbury and we can confidently expect a big improvement from this fine looking and moving colt. He will be much shorter come the day and for me a value bet for this race.

Is Toronado even alive? Have heard nothing at all from Hannon's and there seems to be an omerta around the horse. Seen Hannon junior on the TV a few times and none of the interviewers have asked about the horse, almost as if they've been told not to. Similarly no mention in Hughes column in the RP

There was some updates on their website at beginning of the season but nothing since.

Hannon Jnr just been interviewed at Windsor, and issued a very positive bulletin about Toronado. Worked well at Newbury yesterday and everything gone to plan. Olympic Glory has been left in as back up but assuming Toronado runs, he looks more likely to go for Prix Jacques le Marois.

strange decision that...jacques in august...

glad i don't do much ante post now, sometimes it pays...still not happy with decision as the race was looking good with him in it as well as toronado

lets hope they have a change of heart

I thought it was a while off when he said it... Maybe he got confused about which race they will save him for?

Surely it was always unlikely they would run the two against each other though Harry?

well depends catch me...when you have 2 top class milers what races do you go for??

i think olympic went to france with the view to see if he could go up in trip but once again on a turning track and this time up in trip he was disappointing

so he clearly needs a straight track, so where do you go??

anyway i haven't done any damage just disappointed as the race already lacks any real depth imo and they will have to meet at some point as both seem like milers or at least olympic is and he looks pretty track (straight) dependant at present...

anyway it appears the coast is nicely clear for toronado who doesn't look like he has much to beat in terms class here now

They will want each horse to win a Group 1 this season before they have to face each other, most likely in the QEII.

Soft Falling Rain and Shea Shea working at Newmarket tomorrow.

Toronado keeps being cut. 2/1 is best price now, only available with Lads. All others 7/4 or shorter!

I like this race because for me it's a two horse race between Toronado and Verrazano, I can't have anything else in the race. I really like Verrazano and I wouldn't compare him to Declaration Of War but I would compare him to Haradasun.

agree. thought looked a two horse race, so have taken the 7/2 on toronado and hopefully will be good enough to beat verrazano on the day. gl all

I have not being following the flat season that closely but I do remember Haradasun having some good form in Australia, being bought by Coolmore, drifting from something like 3/1 to 7/1 in the show for the Lockinge, ran a good race finishing sixth and then went to Royal Ascot and won. Of course he had Johnny Murtagh that day who was a great man for getting an extra length or two out of a horse.

Verrazano would look to have a similar profile except he's come from USA. Don't think he was well fancied for the Lockinge but would imagine this will be his main target for the season, whereas others in the race might improve come races like the Sussex, the Prix Du Moulin and the QEII.

Always thought Haradasun was incredibly lucky to win that Queen Anne - from memory didn't the pacemaker move off the rails and he squeezed through to win narrowly? Retired in immediate aftermath which suggests Coolmore thought he was lucky to nick a Group 1 and didn't want him exposed in further races.

This is the race Verrazano has been trained and he will improve for the Lockinge for sure. But he has one piece of turf form to go on which on paper is not that strong. His price of 7/2 is indication of the lack of strength in depth to this race at the moment imo.

1 week to go. Toronado now 7/4 tops.

Timberrrrr! VC hanging on at 11/8 but generally 5/4 now.

Could very well go off odds on.

Fcuk me that 7/2 was a good price. I didn't take it but more than happy if he wins for TTF purposes.

Anodin supplemented by Freddie Head.

I'm happy to stick with my Verazzano bet but I may have a saver on Toronado. I have never really been a fan of Toronado, I don't know why but I always persuade myself not to back him. Although, this is a particularly weak Queen Anne for me and if Verazzano doesn't take a step forward like I hope then it should be a penalty kick for Toronado.

I don't think the favourite should be as short as the betting has it. I agree with brandyontherocks, as decent as Toronado was last year he met Dawn Approach on the downgrade and in my view was slightly overrated because of that. The most important factor is whether he will improve from 3 to 4, as he'll need to due to wfa. Without evidence the market nearly always assumes they will, but just as often they don't. This year's race may not contain a real star in opposition but I'd say it's about as deep as usual. Soft Falling Rain would be no pushover at his best but he's had an interrupted prep so that tempers enthusiasm for him. I don't know about Verrazano's American form but it would be no surprise to see him step up on his first British run. It probably won't be soft enough for Tullius to show his best. As unlikely as it may seem to some I think Producer can run a big race if he's ready to go and at the price I'll be chucking a few quid at him each way.

You can argue Toronado was unlucky not to be awarded the SJP last year. There was only a short head between them at the line and Toro did take a bump. As a 2yo he never struck me as a potential outstanding horse, but his Craven win last year on  seasonal debut he looked very good. He had that wow factor. If he runs like that I can't see him beaten.

Verrazano has a reputation for downing tools in the U.S. Maybe AOB can coax more out of him but I couldn't back him at the price. To win the Queen Anne on his second ever start on Turf just seems pie in the sky to me.

All the others look Group 2, Group 3 horses.

No bets in the race for me though, just hope Toro wins for TTF purposes.

I had Dawn Approach on the downgrade in all races after the Guineas.

I've thrown a few quid on Anodin @ 16/1 and Side Glance @ 40/1 e/w for the sake of having a bet.

Toro, Kingman, Treve treble pays 11/2 if anyone fancies it.

This is a horrible race and highlights at every turn how poor the last reason milers are. Really speaking Toronado should win easily but only because the opposition is really poor. Everywhere you look you find horses well beaten at lower levels and this is a Group 1 race. I never rated Dawn Approach even though I backed him for last seasons Guineas. He was a good solid horse and the best of a poor bunch.
What will win it? Toronado. He will never get a better opportunity in his life to win a soft Group 1 and if he loses then you can forget him because he obviously has issues. I think it's worth paying to find out.

Brigust, you seem to compare all races against the rare exceptional ones and call them really poor. I'd say it was no worse than average.

Not really Figgis only the Group 1 races. That is there point I believe. The best take on the best. Toronado may be the best of his generation but I doubt it and none of the others are. You think Toronado benefited from a below pat Dawn Approach so that makes it an even worse race.

Treve's race and Kingman's race look proper Group 1 races  so if you think the Queen, POW and St James Palace are similar in quality then I would have to disagree.

*their point

if you think the Queen, POW and St James Palace are similar in quality then I would have to disagree.

I never said they were and there's no reason why they should have to be. Some Gp1s will be stronger than others but there is a difference between average and "horrible" and "really poor".

I've often said a Group 1 race should be a race between Group 1 horses especially when it is restricted to 4 year olds and upwards. If you think Toronado benefited from a below par Dawn Approach that leaves us with an American Grade 1 winner on the dirt and a South African two year old Grade 1 winner who is nor five. It's a really poor Group 1 race.

And an Australian Grade 1 winner of course.

I've often said a Group 1 race should be a race between Group 1 horses especially when it is restricted to 4 year olds and upwards

Why? Just because you say it should? So if you had your way older horses who may be improving should never get the chance to step up to winning a Gp1? If they don't make it to Gp1 as a 3yo then tough?

I'm not asking you to live by my rules. You live by your rules and I will live y mine. I'm not asking you to accept anything. Personally I think it is a really poor Group 1 race if you want to argue about that leave me out.

I'm with brigust, not a great G1 by any stretch. The fact that the connections of Anodin thought it was worth supplementing speaks volumes

It's not a great Gp1 certainly, but to say it is very poor or a horrible race the you have to be comparing it against the better winners like Frankel and Goldikova (not that those races were full of Gp1 winners anyway. It's hardly a great deal worse than most renewals.

Brigust you really are a thorough bore. Please stop hijacking threads telling us how rubbish Brigadier Gerard was and go and play on Chit Chat.

Anyway getting back to the race and ignoring those who only want to be argumentative my reason for saying this is a poor race is not criticising the race as such it is simply to point out that Toronado, even with his history, against this quality of opposition  should be a good thing. Both RH's believe this is a penalty kick and who am I to argue. I will take the Evens if it is going and say 'thank you'.

My friend SJ is going Evens but I cannot get on with him so I'm expecting my good Irish benefactor to go up Evens tomorrow morning.

Would have like to have seen him battle a bit more  in his last race over ten furlongs  but the 7/2  on here a couple of weeks ago was begging to be played , not really a  1/1 player so watch and enjoy .

Since the thread started we have said it may be a weak renewal (this season) but Brigusts comments are just typical of the shoite he consistently comes out with. Every horse takes a slating from him sooner or later.

No doubt if Toronado goes on to be champion older miler this season Brig will find a way to knock it.

Toronado's Sussex form last year stands up to the closest scrutiny. That was the race which broke Dawn Approach, and with Declaration of War next best - a horse whose form has few holes in it thereafter - the form is rock solid high class group 1. It's not Toronado's fault he was then shoved up to 10f a few weeks later. They haven't handled having 2 top milers in the yard. Olympic Glory should be running here from the Lockinge. Toronado should have gone Ispahan then Sussex, or should have run here as well as OG and used it as a prep. Horses don't have to win a race for the run to be of value to its season. If Toronado runs his race, he wins, and wins easily.

Howellsy, what about last year's SJP, don't you think the signs were already there about Dawn Approach? The third and fourth that day were a bit too close for comfort. For me Dawn Approach was never quite as good after the Guineas. That isn't to say Toronado didn't put up a good performance, just that it was elevated in the belief that Dawn Approach was at his best.

I was at York last year when Toronado ran in the 10 F race,
I waited down the pre-parade ring as he came over from the stables,
he had run up light and was "washed out",
Worrying in his stables he had been sweating badly,
a Massive Negative that day and he ran like one.
On his best form he should Win tomorrow and if that photo on the S.Life website, Galloping,is of him this season, he looks Very Well!.

Fav does go well fresh & would fancy him to win this 2moro if at the top of his game.
All the vibes are gd from the Hannon & Hughes team about him, not my type of bet, but he will take all the beating imo.

Sin why talk such rubbish? And then you come out with 'if Toronado is champion older miler'. Do you know anything about racing?

I know you don't Brig.

Figgis, you may be right about Royal Ascot last year but maybe that was his come back after the Derby. I think he improved from that to the Sussex - can you imagine some of the horses who were quite close up at Ascot getting anywhere near in the Sussex? The Sussex broke Toronado too, for last season at least. This just isn't a betting race for me.

Verrazano is an impressive looking animal, a big powerful type and he will need cranking up at half way to stretch the field. I would be surprised if Joseph didn`t have the horse much more handy than in the Lockinge and use the horses stamina and huge stride.

I would rather take the 1.7 for a place on Verrazano than 1.95 on Toronado to win.

But well done those that got the prices in the AP markets.

morning all looking forward to the great meeting

interesting opener and toronado should win really...not my kind of bet at these odds on the back of a break but not a whole lot to get him with...

verrazano does look a specimen, however he really did win some poor slowly run dirt races in america and unless aiden has suddenly turned him into a top turf horse he needs to be left alone imo...i am tempted to try and get him at the 1.76 to place as he really does have a lot to prove...his dirt form in america is just beating up poor horses off of slow fractions...he had to run fast in the breeders cup mile and came up short...i suspect people are pinning there hopes on o'brien working the magic and him needing the run first time and him improving rapidly like a couple of aidens other winners of the race...the is a pretty weak race on paper so i suppose we should respect him but on pure ability he has plenty to prove and looks a slow boat to me

i was all over soft falling rain to win the lochinge and he was pulled out, he can go well with the ground coming in his favour although his form really isn't working out but i respect him off of 2 runs and de kock has campaigned him for a european campaign so looking at the horses running he has place claims

i am struggling to find a bet but really like the globe trotter side glance to get in the money now the ground is coming right at around 11-2 on here...he has decent form at ascot and if ridden for a place i can see him picking up the stragglers inside the furlong, fingers crossed for some pace to run at, glory awaits and the french horse should give us this tbf...tullius has been going the right way and has every right to place and will be interesting if he can back up his run on better ground last time

Added Soft Falling Rain each way to my Producer each way bet. Hopefully he can overcome a less than ideal prep, can't see him out of the frame if he can.

Verrazano entered the Kentucky Derby undefeated after four races, including the Grade 1 Wood Memorial, but that day he finished 14th. He then ran away with the Grade 1 Haskell Invitational at Monmouth Park, the home track of Scatuorchio and Sullivan, but over his next three starts he lost some of his previous glamour, with a fourth in the Breeders’ Cup Mile and third in the Cigar Mile. Returning to the races gives him a chance to rehabilitate his image.
“He probably should have always run on the grass, but in America that’s frowned upon,” said Ed Rosen, an American pedigree consultant.
“His sire’s best runners have been on the turf.”
“Todd was reluctant, and understandably so, to go for the first time ever on the grass in the Breeders’ Cup,” Rosen said. “But I think we were always aware of the fact that he would run successfully on the grass.
There’s a lot of grass in his female family.
But in America that’s always a backup plan. Most horses only get to the grass after they fail on the dirt.”
O’Brien, the trainer, has successfully used the Lockinge as a prep for the Queen Anne Stakes.
Last year, Declaration of War, an American-bred colt who had briefly resided in Pletcher’s American stable before joining O’Brien’s outfit, finished fifth in the Lockinge before winning the Queen Anne.

Verrazano 13/2 on here ..

8/1.

Sweet. Toronado does that nicely. Should improve too.

Well done Workforce taking the 7/2.

Well done Toronado backers. Good to firm ground.

two best horses in the race finished 1 - 2

David Johnson ‏@davidjohnsonTF  1m
1.37.73 is the quickest Queen Anne since Ramonti on good to firm (Timeform assessment) in 2007 who clocked 1.37.21.

Interesting news. AOB may run Verrazano in the Eclipse next. Would seemingly confirm Aus for the Irish Derby, then.

yes, well done winners , looked straightforward but in fact Hughs road a super race on the winner .

rode*

wd winners winner did it well as expected

Thanks Sint. Not without worry and not the dominant performance I expected. Will probably try and take him on in the Sussex depending on what the 3yos do in an hours time!

Only horse that could beat him is Kingman imo. Toro will improve a load for that run today.

I agree with Workforce. For a race run at a fast pace they finished pretty bunched considering it wasn't the best renewal. The time also backs up the view it wasn't an exceptional performance. I know it's possible that he'll come on for the run and Hannon said so beforehand but I'd say that was just him playing down his chances, I'd be surprised if he wasn't fully fit for today and Hughes seemed to be of that opinion. Some will say Hughes won the race with a bit in hand but I reckon his style of riding often makes it look like horses have more in hand than they have. He was the best horse today but I don't think he's improved much from 3 to 4 and I'd be against him again next time.

After the race Hughes said Toro blew up with a furlong to run. He is usually spot on when he says stuff like that. Unless there is something of a high calibre to take him on i'd be with him. Only horse I can see at this stage is Kingman.

yep, Kingman it is. Whoosh.

From Hannon's website.

Hannon said:"I backed Toronado at 10-1 in January to win the Queen Anne, but the money is immaterial. I was just so relieved to see him win. Obviously, I was under a lot of pressure and it was a very important race, but then Toronado is a very, very good colt.
"He would be right up there with all the best milers we have had, but remember Canford Cliffs won six Group 1's, and Toronado has only won two so far."
However, Hughes predicts that there are plenty more to come. He said:"All credit to Richard for getting Toronado ready to win at the top level after a 300-day absence, because there is a fine line between having a horse spot on and overdoing him.
"There was no hiding place out there. The leaders went off at 5f-6f pace, so I had to keep telling myself to ignore them. I have never been so fast up that Ascot straight. He travelled strongly, but when we got there he had to be brave, and I felt him blow up at the furlong-pole, but he dug in there and got the job done.
"Last year he could be fizzy and might not have been tough enough for a scrap like that, but Sean Levey, who rides him every day, has done a brilliant job in getting him switched off, and he was totally relaxed out there. This race will have turned the lights on, and he'll be a better horse next time - he will take some beating in all the top mile races this season."
Hannon suggested that Toronado could well attempt to defend his crown in the Sussex Stakes at Glorious Goodwood next month - he beat Dawn Approach in that race last year - which could well mean a clash with Kingman, who had toppled our own Night of Thunder in yesterday's St James's Palace Stakes.
He added:"Toronado will stay at a mile - when you have a horse who is that good over that distance, why try further ? The Sussex looks the logical route - we have Olympic Glory earmarked for the Jacques le Marois at Deauville - and then there is the QE11 back here, the Breeders Cup Mile and Hong Kong."
Reflecting on Night of Thunder's defeat, Hannon said:"No complaints - we were beaten fair and square. They are two good horses, but Kingman has a better turn of foot than us, though I was encouraged how well our fellow finished his race. Hughesie and I agree that it would be worth trying him at a mile and a quarter, so we might have a look at the Eclipse Stakes at Sandown."

Who went 10s Toronado for the Q A.
But nice of him to tells us all about the bet "after the race"
Toro is a gd miler, but not Kingman level in my opinion.

William Hill go 4/7 and 6/4 the match. Kingman all day long for me though would just watch the race or put him into some multiples.

Nice win by Toronado but he clearly isn't great shakes.This wasn't a hot renewal but he was the only possible bet to start off RA. Couldn't have him to beat Kingman at Goodwood though.

There you go again. Knocking every single horse as a matter of course. They are robots afterall and simply CANNOT improve.

The race never took much winning, as we stated back in May, but that's Toro's first run as a 4yo and first race of season. He is going to improve.

Sin it is only my opinion. I did say I thought Kingman would beat him in the Sussex so you cannot have it both ways. You have to understand that horses do improve, they do lose their form and they also can benefit from weak opposition. As possibly the best older miler in training I thought he should have won what looked like a weak Gr1 easier than he did. I also cannot believe RH would have sent him to the races anything other than fully fit. As a miler I cannot see where he can go from here especially if, as I believe, the 3 year olds are better. I could be wrong of course. It happens.

You have to understand you patronising tool.

I may have knocked Toronado but I praised Kingman. You cannot have it both ways. I may believe the current oklder milers are beatable but I also believe the current younger horses look good. You cannot have it both ways.

But I do think I understand you because you are obviously an ignorant kn ob. I either agree with you or I'm a tool. Are you sure you aren't some sort of virus? This is a forum, try looking it up in the dictionary and you might, just might, learn something. I doubt it though because any foul mouthed idiot like you isn't likely to own a dictionary let alone be able to read one. Now why don't you do yourself a favour and go and do one?

Guessing, backfitting, hypocritical, contradictory moron. I've said it before (last Champions Weekend to be precise) that as a punter your opinion should not be taken seriously. Even when you are spectacularly wrong, you want to be right. Forums are populated with losers like you Brig.

Sint my Dad once told me to 'never argue with an idiot because no matter what you say they will always be an idiot'. So excuse me if I refrain from arguing with you.

No worries.

I have blocked you now so I don't have to read your hypocritical, backfitting, contradictory biased bullsh1t any longer.

Grow up ffs.