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Eeternaloptimist
27 Dec 12 00:27
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Date Joined: 28 Jun 10
| Topic/replies: 38,236 | Blogger: Eeternaloptimist's blog
Purely in my view but I think people put 2 and 2 together and get 51. The horse simply has his own way of doing things and this accentuates what appears to be Cohen's amateurishness. I very much doubt the top jockeys would have unblemished rounds with the horse but because it struggles to jump it has to be the jockeys fault?

Was it McCoy's fault that The Giant Bolster hardly jumped a fence?


Cohen gave a perfectly accomplished even may I say a stylish display on the novice winner earlier in the card.

He is what he is which is a damned good amateur and I enjoy the fact that something of the corinthian spirit remains in the game.
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Report Swagger December 27, 2012 1:04 AM GMT
I agree 100%. You look at two main factors for a national hunt jockey, positioning and presentation at a fence/hurdle. SWC's positioning was A+ in the King George, he had Long Run in the correct position throughout and took it up at the right time to make the most of his stamina - he almost idled his way to defeat but switched on to get the job done. SWC's presentation at the fences isn't the best and sometimes maybe he should ask the horse for a big jump but other jockeys often ask a horse for a big one and sometimes the horse just doesn't pick up and will get cained by armchair jockeys. So it's probably a judgment call on his behalf that he thinks Long Run is best to jump in his own time. I remember Barry Gereighty asked Spirit River for a massive jump in a novice chase a while back and the horse fell having looked a machine up until that point. The horse hasn't regained his confidence since so i don't think you should always boot a horse into a fence as they are all different. In any event, SWC must be at least competent to present a horse well at a fence otherwise he wouldn't have such a great record around the national fences. So whilst a top professional jockey like Walsh, AP, Gereighty or Johnson would be am improvement upon SWC, i don't think it would make as much difference as most seem to think.
Report bazzar December 27, 2012 2:08 AM GMT
Not sure of the facts so this is a surmise, SAM only has around 20 rides in
ordinary NH races during a season, so if I'm right his success rate is exceedingly
high, his most famous steed has NEVER been out of the first 3 or been on the deck,
whenever he has ridden him.
Being well aware of the British punters likes and dislikes, have met a few who will not back a horse if ridden by a female or trained by a female, a similar prejudice applies to amateurs
and because of this, facts are overlooked and therefore NEVER rationalised, consequently
I happen to take advantage of such prejudices and in MOST cases profit.
I suspect that LONG RUN has been slightly under trained in some races since his Gold Cup win,
but admit I am not sure.
Report harry callaghan December 27, 2012 9:23 AM GMT
Cracking thread this...Is this the I backed long run to win the king george thread??? pocket talking is what it is

Eastern how can you put a question mark up against mccoy after the horse never went a yard??

Oh what a lovely ride from sam in the novice...was a steering job pal and the horse was a stone and a half well in...

He tried his hardest to make long run not see a stride either should of won by 5 lengths, had he presented him at any of the fences he would of won easily imo...instead he was all out in a driving finish, had a very hard race and probably finished him for the season on the back of it

what this comes down to is sam has just ridden 2 steering jobs...one an unnecessary one and people want to give accolades on the back of it

bazzar in regards to being under trained what a load of rubbish...under trained by the top trainer?? this comes down to winning a weak king george pal... what do you think he ran too?? He hasn't run to his best rating to win, he has just beaten inferior opposition...captain chris is a good horse but 170 max at best so long run probably ran to 172 this is a full stone below his best...he got away with it yesterday imo from a poor field...he could of won more easily had bronco billy presented better at a fence...he must be some horse to be able to mow his way through fences and still win

excellent pocket talking though guys and good reasoning to back it up... which I respect
Report bestmate December 27, 2012 12:53 PM GMT
Mr Cohen Has won a gold cup, 2 KG's & a couple of races over the GN fences. He CAN ride a horse
Hendo & Cohen team pulled out a masterstroke by giving the boy confidence beforehand through RanJ Express
Report bazzar December 27, 2012 1:03 PM GMT
Make my day Harry, do trainers not make mistakes?
They are human beings and so they do, a very blatant mistake in recent years was made by STOUTE,who withdrew KRIS KIN from the derby having been entered at the first entry stage
and had to pay extra to re-enter him after winning the DEE STAKES at Chester.
We will know more after the GOLD CUP.
Report Swagger December 27, 2012 2:16 PM GMT
Your points are fair enough Harry, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I understand the point about presentation at a fence etc. I don't understand the whole pocket talking point though as bazzar has always backed Long Run and mentioned the same on various threads, Eeternaloptimist started a thread stating that he had backed Long Run before the King George was run and i mentioned a few times on various threads that i could only see 3 possible winners of the race in Long Run, Grands Crus and Sir Des Champs i backed all three antepost so worked out ok for me in the end. Regards SWC what it comes down to is if the horse had a different jockey would Long Run have won more races? I thought he gave him a good ride in this years Gold Cup where he finished 3rd - the horse just didn't have the finish in him - probably ran too fast too soon at Newbury. The recent loss to S Conti well they didn't want to bottom out the horse so they were happy to track a slow pace and accept whatever happened. The only race I think he would have won with a professional was last years King George - if Long Run had stepped on the gas earlier and got to the front I don't think Kauto Star would have finished in front. That's just my opinion and you can argue the same for any horse - if AP was more confident in Best Mate stating the 3 miles he probably would have won the King George when he rode him etc.
Report harry callaghan December 27, 2012 3:02 PM GMT
lol swagger maybe i was a tad harsh, as is my want...

its the fact you have all backed the horse I found funny...

In my opinion a horse improves with a rider and long run is regressing for a seven year old with each run under cohen...

just my opinion and hope you all filled your boots...just funny the thread and felt I had to have a voice in regard to the strong opinions about the rider

honesty is what I like... as comments have always cost money in the company I keepGrin

for what its worth I was on the captain for plenty, make what you will of thatPlain
Report Swagger December 27, 2012 3:14 PM GMT
No worries Harry, to be honest i'm nearly always on an outsider in that type of finish and it sickens me to the pit of my stomach to regularly get chinned by the fav so I can fully understand you venting your frustration as the Captain all but won the race so i can imagine the old remote control must have gone through the window! For once i was on the fav who fortunately got back up.
Report harry callaghan December 27, 2012 3:28 PM GMT
well swagger to be honest... was on champion court as main bet in the place market...but was sick when the captain could find no more as he was my win bet and was all over him...

I will say I layed champion short 1.1 and 1.34 for good profit but was still wanting him to place and then the captain was a sick joke but I will thank sam for one thing, he helped me get out short on him too but the win would of been very joyful...and in the end made money out of 2 losers but thought we had long run beat to be fair and when they kept laying the 20's on the captain I thought it was christmas, it wasn't however as jimmy tarry conjured up a stirling finish from his ever willing partner to lasso the captain in the last 30 yardsMischief

I couldn't go to mad as was sitting with the family but felt like getting the rope outGrin
Report armpits December 27, 2012 3:51 PM GMT
At too many fences Waley-Cohen (to my untutored eyes at least) almost appears to be holding the horse up as Long Run approaches a fence.  Over that last fence yesterday, the horse lost all momentum and had to be ridden out, all out to catch the eventual runner up.  Underneath a different, more accomplished jockey this simply wouldn't have been necessary.  As we all know, it's up to the owner who he has aboard but he'd be pounds and pounds better under a top jock.  It will be interesting to look back after the horse has retired and see how things could have been different.  Great thing, hindsight...
Report Angel Gabrial December 27, 2012 6:36 PM GMT
EO

SWC is not the most stylish but on Rajdhani Express he was on a horse taking him places. The ride on Long Run required decision making, presentation and elbow grease. Long Run shows signs of insecurity at his fences so could AP bring out improvement? Yes i am sure he would.

Long Run needs booting and bossing and AP is as good as anyone at this.
Report duffy December 27, 2012 7:31 PM GMT
Read plenty of negative comments regarding SWC after yesterday and in this case I can't understand it one bit, there are a few points where I think he deserves plenty of credit.

1.To my eye the horse made one real mistake in the race, the one at the last wasn't a mistake he simply didn't see a stride and got in too close which did cost some ground.There were numerous times where the jock asked the horse up and he delivered.

2.A mile or so from home SWC threw the gauntlet down and quickened the pace up which champion court reacted to but between the two of them thinned everything out, if SWC waited then captain chris would have been able to get into the race a lot easier and probably had something left at the end, but the increase in tempo made it that much harder for him.

3. After the 2nd last SWC and long run were out on their own in the middle of the track and the horse was idling, he saw johnson coming up the rail and he quite noticeably made his horse get back into a direct battle with CC taking him back alongside the other horse, he could have stayed stranded in no mans land with nothing to race against, but he knew his horse was a fighter and it won the battle.

Yes there have been times when you can knock the jockey, but yesterday was not one of them IMO.
Report Masterminded December 27, 2012 9:39 PM GMT
Fact of the matter is I think you have a high 170's bordering 180 horse running just to just about 170. Some days this is good enough other days not so much. It's not pretty to watch but Sam has got the results that him and his family have wanted so fair play to them. It doesn't bother me who rides the horse but when you see results like the one on Boxing Day it is nice to see. I can't however get through my head how anyone can say that was a good ride yesterday or that he's a good jockey in general. If the horse is good enough to carry him to victory he is capable but he has no natural balance, he can't deliver horses at a fence and his lack of tactical knowledge is dire. The race really couldn't have panned out any better for Long Run & he still nearly got the thing beat. The chap does well to say how it's not his profession & he has won 2 of the best if not the best trophies in NH racing. But I just get frustrated when mediocre rides on a horse that should have won are talked of as brilliant when in fact they are not.
Report Angel Gabrial December 27, 2012 11:07 PM GMT
Any of the top 20 or so professional jockey`s could reap out improvement from Long Run. The horse is definitely not straight forward. I`m sure he has started to think about the game and that he downed tools up the hill at Cheltenham last season in the GC.

It would not surprise me if he downs tools again at Cheltenham. He enjoys Kempton but i would not expect any improvement anywhere else.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 27, 2012 11:53 PM GMT
Just to correct a previous comment and the accusation of pocket talking I had backed Grands Crus ante post prior to the Paddy Power and didn't have another bet in the race. I did give my opinion that everything had fallen Long Run's way and that I thought he would win the race.
Report Eeternaloptimist December 27, 2012 11:56 PM GMT
Masterminded

I'm not aware of anybody saying the ride was brilliant or that Cohen is a brilliant jockey. My point is that the horse isn't straight forward and could well cause the top jockeys who many are clamouring for some trouble if they did ride it.
Report Steeplechasing December 28, 2012 5:30 PM GMT
Looking at the two jocks who fought out the finish, in the past 5 seasons SWC has had 106 rides; R Johnson's had 3,803.

(RJ was 0 from 4 on Boxing Day; SWC was 2 from 2)

Regardless of innate talent, you'd expect RJ to be 'the better jockey', on the 'practice makes perfect premise', if nothing else.

How many scrutinise SWC when he rides anything except Long Run?

To my mind Long Run has two major facets which any jockey would be forced to cope with - he needs a rip-the-guts-out stamina test to show his best form (his Gold Cup win was off a searing pace), and he does not bend his back properly under pressure. This latter aspect means 99% of his errors are rear-end ones, where he drags his legs (sometimes as high as his stifle) through fences.

Doubtless he has been medically checked in every bone and sinew - the trouble is you cannot simulate race conditions for testing.

SWC knows this jumping weakness very well and, understandably, tries to prepare for it as he feels the horse coming under pressure: A back-end error, dramatically slows the horse's momentum and jolts its rump upwards often catching the jockey and firing him skywards: SWC tries to allow for this and it can often, understandably, make him look ungainly, but, in 16 chases where his formline is littered with 'mistake' 'blunder', 'not fluent', SWC has yet to be unseated.

Yogi Breisner has spent a lot of time trying to improve the horse's jumping without success. I think it is unlikely that a pro jockey will suddenly get LR to start picking up his back end. Thus, imo, a pro jockey would be more likely to suffer an unseat from the horse than SWC would.

Given the comparatively tiny number of rides he has and the minuscule percentage of those in which he comes under the microscope, it is grossly unfair to condemn SWC.

Doubtless, Ruby, Barry and others are better jockeys in general than SWC - I'm certain Sam himself would be the first to concede that; but if any pro was put up for the first time in the Gold Cup, given Long Run's quirks (and idling might also be one), I would be less inclined to back him than if SWC kept the ride.
Report King Selassie I December 28, 2012 7:11 PM GMT
Good points Steeple - Good post
Report Roytheboy December 30, 2012 4:52 PM GMT
I have to say that I am amazed that people are still criticising Waley-Cohen after boxing day.  Quite simply he gave the horse a perfect ride and got it home when it looked well beat, not sure wat else the lad has to do?
Report Angel Gabrial December 30, 2012 11:16 PM GMT
Maximise the horses ability perhaps.
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