Camelot

Without jumping down my throat SOF, what did you make of the ride today?

I'll just say I'm not a Joseph O'Brien slater I think he's a very talented young jockey but he's not the finished article by a long way.

sintonian I hear what you say and I guess he won't put it down as his finest moment in the saddle. That said, I think the winner received a fine and enterprising ride from a superb young jockey and its refreshing to see these guys like Barzalona winning your Derby and Leger.

Whilst JPOB did get slightly caught out today, Camelot didn't show his usual sparkle. He travelled ok, but just ok, he wasn't in the greatest position throughout the race, and there was a lot left for him to do when the winner went away from them.

I still think a couple of pacemakers would have made a difference to proceedings and I'm amazed that his trainer didn't employ at least one. In fact I'm stunned there wasn't a Ballydoyle pacemaker. I won't ever be critical of him but he should have put a pacemaker in over that kind of distance and in a race that meant so much to all concerned.

Listen for many reasons its rare I post on here now sintonian so whilst I've got you can I say to you I'm sorry for things that have gone on.

Tomorrow indeed another day sintonian for Ballydoyle and hopefully for your bank balance. I'm sure you fire in the winners on a regular basis and no doubt you've always got plenty of decent ante-post up the sleeve!

All the best.

"I'll just say I'm not a Joseph O'Brien slater I think he's a very talented young jockey but he's not the finished article by a long way"

I think MM speaks for the vast majority with those words.

I backed Encke, but pre-race I really didn't expect him to be able to beat Camelot - when he was bang there, I was roaring my horse on, but I do think it's sad not to witness a Triple Crown winner, as the next stoutly-bred colt that wins the Guineas in a workmanlike fashion, then romps home in the Derby, won't even be considered for Doncaster.

Nashwan & Sea The Stars at NO stage had the St.Leger on the horizon and although
I'm no fan of the Coolmore operation, I thought they deserved to be rewarded for their sportsmanship.

Can't see the Triple Crown even being attempted in my lifetime, unless a 'Reference Point' kind of colt wins the 2000 Guineas.

I had Encke second top rated behind Camelot, based on his Gordon stakes run, the Voltigeur was a farce of a race. Earlier in the week I intended to back him each way but decided to leave the race alone, how stupid was that?

I agree with SOF that pacemakers would probably have made the difference. The going was pretty quick and the time is an extremely poor one accounting for the conditions. A more proactive ride from the jockey could also have reversed the result, but let's face it, he's not alone when it comes to jockeys being unable to adapt to slowly run races. Assuming Camelot comes out of the race ok, I think they should run him in the Arc.

SoF - to be honest...I have to admit I've been scathing about Coolmore at times but I've been objective.

As a person, I'm a big fan of Aidan as he's clearly a gent, but I disagree with many of their methods.

Nevertheless, I do think it's a travesty they didn't collect today, and I have to disagree with you as I believe they'd think twice about chasing the Holy Grail next time if in that position, though I want to be wrong.

I got a good few quid out of Encke today, and mainly because I REFUSED (in principle) to lay him at the closing prices in the ante-post market (which were too high) so I was left with an unexpected bonus of around £1300 - I did say on another thread there was nothing between the rest of them if Camelot under-performed.

I was only in the red for a total of £7 having bounced many AP bets on the horses beaten in the Voltigeur, Encke, Noble Mission & Thomas Chippendale.
You may have read my (usually) inane ramblings on the 'St.Leger trials' thread, and for once it paid off

I couldn't get the message across strongly enough that I'm NOT a stats man at all, but there were damned good reasons for believing in them in these circumstances.

I'd have thought many others would have got similarly unexpected bonuses as I laid Encke at around 16 in the AP market (after the Gordon Stakes) and surely those people would have just let their bets ride, because they couldn't trade out.

I can't be TOO greedy but I'm disappointed I didn't go in again at 100+ but I figured anyone laying at those crazy prices much have strongly suspected he wasn't gonna turn up.

I think Coolmore might have a stud fee issue now that the penalty kick wasn't converted - which may surely persuade them to go for the Arc. I'm guessing they'd have been able to command nearly £100k a pop if he'd won today, but given he didn't they may be looking at half that? An Arc win (against what could be a half decent field with Danedream, Orfevre, Nathaniel) would surely shunt him back up towards 6 figures, and with the wfa they could have some confidence.

SoF - have you any knowledge as to why Aidan withdrew ALL his entries for the big French races tomorrow?

I've NEVER seen anything like that before, and I'm astonished that there's been no news about it


I'd be interested to hear more too - this seems to be something noone wants to talk about.

I think the reason he lost yesterday was not because Joseph rode a bad race or made a tactical mistake. Those sorts of issues are split second decisions. I think it's far more serious than that. He didn't go into the race with the right mindset. It's as if the hype has finally blinded Ballydoyle to the reality of their own horse. If they had recognised the colt's limitations, they might now be celebrating the triple crown. The Guineas was a slog through the mud. It was the polar opposite of a 'turn of foot' race. The Derby proved that he lacked push button accelaration. There was a whole furlong in the Derby when it looked as though he might not be able to do it. The commentator was well aware he was not commentating on a procession. And in that race, O'Brien was riding the horse well before the two pole, and getting into a rhythm really helped the horse stay on. Once he got him going, and it took about a furlong, he looked relentless (and even then he had to get past only one horse). So the instructions should have been to stay around the outside, like at Epsom, and to stoke the horse up 3 from home. If it had been a strongly run race, jockeyship might have been less of a factor. But with such a poor quality pacemaker, was there ever really going to be a strong pace for long? So in my view it was the whole Ballydoyle mindset (he beat Daddy Long Lesg by 25 lengths on the gallops!!!) that ironically cost them the triumph that appeared to mean so much. You can say what you want to the outside world; the problems start when you lose sight of reality.

Viewed the race a few times & in my view things just did not go to plan on the day.
Camelot travelled like the best horse in the race & was the last horse off the bit.
The surprise winner Encke (in most books) also travelled well & showed a gd turn of foot to take a couple of lengths out of the field & stayed on well to the line.
Camelot took time to find his stride off the bit before coming home well in the final furlong, that was for me the diff bettween winning & losing the Leger.
I still think Camelot was the best horse in the race, it was just how the race unfolded that got him beat imo.