Leger

I defo think Great Heavens will need softish ground to be at her best, just like her brother. Most pertinently for me at The Curragh was how strong she was at the finish and the extra 2F will certainly hold no fears for her.

Gosden is only £77k behind in the trainer's championship. Will certainly be decided at Ascot and that may point Nathaniel that way as 2nd in the Champion will be worth a big chunk

Blue Bunting ran similarly to Great Heavens at the Curragh. She won it with a late run. But ran a shocker at Doncaster.

True but she had another run in between - which she won

Gosden said himself he's not worried about the c'ship,maybe reason Nathaniel is more likely to go to Ascot is Rothschilds already have Meandre in Arc and secondly he may not get his ground in Paris although it can be on the soft side there in Oct more often than not.

Prize money in France does not count MrSykes.

Only soft ground would put me off Camelot winning the Leger.
On gd/fast ground i would expect him to out class them.
Jonny-G holds a strong hand again this year, the Filly would hold major claims if it came up soft (Great Heavens) The 2 colts look closely matched on form, & look like the trip will be no probs (Shantaram/Thought Worthy).

I thought Great Heavens was considered to be an unlikely runner. Has there been a U turn? With the injury to Shantaram surely the e.w bet is Thought Worthy a certain runner . Guarantee's connections seem to be having 2nd thoughts about running but the Leger seems to be the obvious race for him and I have had a smaller bet on him.

What injury to Shantaram? First i've heard ..

The Sir Henry Cecil-trained colt holds entries in the Ladbrokes St Leger and the Prix Niel at Longchamp in the middle of next month.

Winner of the Group Two King Edward VII Stakes at Royal Ascot, Thomas Chippendale was not disgraced when fifth to Thought Worthy in the Great Voltigeur Stake at York last week when he was giving 3lb to all his rivals.

"He's fine. We haven't made a decision on what we are going to do with him yet," said Barry Simpson, racing manager to owner Sir Robert Ogden.

"He's entered in France in the Prix Niel, but we won't make a decision for a week or so. He's also been left in the Leger.

"He'll probably have one or two more races this season, then we'll put him away for next year.

"The race at York didn't suit us so we really didn't learn an awful lot from it."

I don't think ANYONE learned much from that Voltigeur...a very disappointing trial

25/1 on BF for Shantarm .. anything official?

Doesn't sound like TC is going for this, not really that surprised.  Would he have to carry a penalty in the Niel?

RP 30/8
SHANTARAM, 10-1 third favourite with the sponsors for the Ladbrokes St Leger, is by no means certain to contest the Doncaster Classic on September 15 after suffering an interrupted preparation.

The son of Galileo, winner of the Group 3 Bahrain Trophy at Newmarket last month, was forced to bypass his intended warm-up at York last week due to a dirty scope.

Shantaram is one of five St Leger hopefuls for John Gosden. He said yesterday: "Shantaram missed his prep due to a dirty scope a few days before York. It takes about ten days to get that out of his system and then we have to start over again. It's a less than ideal preparation for a Classic and we will have to see nearer the time."

thanks Tinkler.

The York race was very tactical, gd ride by Buick, young man at the very top of his game atm. He looks a real Leger type & will prob improve for the step-up in trip.
The 2nd at York (main sequence) wont turn the form around in my book, i think 1m4f is his limit & i dont expect him to run. Thought Worthy looks a solid ew bet.

Does anyone know the business side of breeding from the viewpoint of Shantaram and Great Heavens being out of Galileo. re there clauses in these sort of deals that could see them miss the same race as any Ballydoyle runners such as Camelot ?

I dont Graeme. Not into the breeding side of things that deeply but im sure there a few people who are ..

I am not an expert by any means. But if you were a breeder would you pay top dollar to visit a stallion on the proviso that Coolmore could still choose what race the horse ran in?

Cheers sint/roobuck...i know it's improbable but i was just following that sort of line as i'm clueless when it comes to these things. We will see what happens closer to the race. I though i read something somewhere about Frankel and a Ballydoyle conflict of interest somewhere a while ago. It's not something that interests me, but i do like to see the best horses get to these kind of races.

Hya.still new to this,so hope you get this.Go to racing post .com,on right of page put in the horses name,next,where says all,click arrow and select horses click 'red button' and breeding will come up.a bit slow but you can do this for each horse and get a better idea of full pedigree.Because it is rarely achieved,i doubt Coolmore will oppose Camelot too much in going for the 'triple crown'.Also,as ever the going could make a big difference

john gosden said today his likely runners are thought worthy, michelango and a pacemaker, great heavens to go to france.

Where did he say that Ashleigh .. on RUK?

yes knob

The race may cut up. Main Sequence and Thomas Chip are doubtful aswell.

Cheers Teets you raging ****

Ho

Mo

bull ?

Real shame GH misses this - a lot of the interest has gone out of the race now.

I took 80 on GH for the Arc as the Vermeille could be a prep. I've absolutely no doubt though that i've probably wasted more money, and that Gosden probably won't send a filly to the arc ?...it's a long shot, but if Nathaniel goes to the Champion, then she might get a go at the arc...it's a long shot but ahhhhh sigh.

Not necessarily as the owner seemed to hint that Great Heavens could be her best horse when discusing the golden spell they had a month or so back. I had a small amount at 18 on here and is was only a small amount because there was no way she should be that big.

Looks like I've played the race all wrong and whilst Thought Worthy does now seem a decent each way bet, I shall let it go for mow. Interesting that Gosden is also running a pacemaker, not going to let Camelot win a speed battle

Apparently Gosden said Nathaniel is the Arc horse, so yeah i've wasted 20 quid i probably needed. Sighs, you know what they say...if soemthing is toog good to be true....



There's always the king george

Yes Roo. He knows his horses are stamina laden boats. Not only does he want to bring down Camelot but also the trainers championship is at stake. Lads now 10/1 for TW.

Apparently Gosden said Nathaniel is the Arc horse

Did he really? Sorry but I'm actually pleased to hear that

Apparently he said on RUK today that Nath will need the run in Ireland as his main aim is the aim.

Wanna know my take? I say it's bull,just like the Eclipse, and Nath is now being aimed for the Arc officially since it's been announced Frankel heads to Ascot.

* is the Arc.

Yes Nathaniel for the Arc. There is no way any horse heading to stud is going to end their career being clobbered by Frankel.

Agreed re Ireland sint. If you were an owner would you pay a supplementary entry for a horse that would 'need the race'?

Michelangelo is the Gosden No1 for Leger and will be ridden by William Buick. Thought Worthy will also run but no decision on jockey for that one yet.

Does anyone know if Encke is an intended runner?

Imperial Monarch down to around 15,anyone heard anything' iffy' about Camelot?

A friend told me about 2 months when all the talk about the Triple Crown was going on that Camelot will prob go for the Arc instead,just thinking about that now,IM not running at Leopardstown must mean something,if it was the ground,fair enough but IM would be encountering similiar ground at Doncaster.o'Brien's interview yesterday on ATR was interesting.

I guess if it's a bog on Arc day IM might take his chance. Otherwise they'll probably keep him for next year - SNA and Camelot will be retired and they like to have an older horse to campaign.

I think Thomas Chippendale is excellent value now owner has pretty much confirmed participation. Wasn't at all suited by way race was run at York and didn't settle. Liked previous performance at Ascot. Probably needs some give to beat Camelot but holds many of the others on Ascot run.

I agree - thanks for the heads up I had missed that

Is it not more the case that Camelot goes Leger and retires an unbeaten triple crown winner....while Imperial Monarch, who needs an Arc more than Camelot does, goes Niel then the big one?

I think if IM goes to Prix Niel,Last Train will beat him

Watering apparently starting today...rain is forecast next week

Not sure there will be enough rain to change the ground to anything but good at worst. I have posted on the other leger thread I think the race is Camelot's to lose. If the ground comes up anywhere between good to soft and good to firm then he is a certainty for me. The firmer the better really. I could agree more with Lester's Pigott's piece in the racing post, just feel that Camelot is going to kill them for speed in the straight.

Camelot's big test will hopefully come in the Arc. If gosden wasn't running a pacemaker then he'd probably trot round quicken and
win taking little out of himself, making it a good prep race. But that doesn't look like happening and he's going to have to use
up a significant amount of energy . If the race was over 1 1/2m then 2/5 would probably be about right but over an extented 1 3/4m
4/6 - 4/7 is probably about right.
If gosden runs Shantarram,Thought worthy and Michelangelo then whoever Buick rides and the reasons why could be interesting.

I think Michelangelo will be Buicks choice,loads stamina in pedigree.Any other Gosden runner would be a brill spare ride for any jockey.The Leger should be a true test of stamina with a Gosden pacemaker,which is another i am against Camelot.The extra 2 1/2 fur will,i think find him out

could o'Brien send IM to help out?sounded a little worried other day

not seen L piggots item,or O.briens,where would i get them?

Whatever goes for the Niel will face Saonois, Kesampour, Bayrir, Masterstroke and Top Trip potentially. Will be informative to say the least!

Masterstroke may not go for the Niel

Getting really interesting now 6 days to go to Leger.Just looked at Michelangelo,4 races ,3 diff types of going,g/s[3rd],gd[3rd] both times behind noble mission,and g/f over 10f and 11f winner both times,will he get the distance?.Hope so,am looking forward to the race.I do wish the 'best' race on the card is not left to the end,any delay and not on terrestial tv,The presentation to Sir Henry was after ch4 went off the air

Mr.Sykes - is that news about Masterstroke anywhere online?
Has he picked up an injury?

more money for imp mon for leger???

No injury re Masterstroke.  He was never entered in the Niel.  Quite why people want to back him at nearly half the price of Last Train I cannot fathom.  You only need to take a passing interest in entries to work out which colt Fabre thinks is the number one in the yard.

Camelot (GB)    3       9 0
Chamonix (IRE)    3       9 0
Dartford (USA)    3       9 0
Encke (USA)    3       9 0
Guarantee (GB)    3       9 0
Imperial Monarch (IRE)    3       9 0
Main Sequence (USA)    3       9 0
Michelangelo (GB)    3       9 0
Thomas Chippendale (IRE)    3       9 0
Thought Worthy (USA)    3       9 0
Ursa Major (IRE)    3       9 0

Any ideas why Thomas C drifting? 20/1 chance in my book but 50s freely available with little looking to back.

Is Ursa Major likely to run or more chance of it going for the Irish equiavalent?

I like TC each way as well but I do think he needs a little rain to ease the ground, will not be suited by quick ground unfortunately. If it is really quick I can still see them pulling him out as they know they have a decent animal and would not want to harm his chances for next season.

Form Horse Owner Trainer Jockey
1) 11-111 CAMELOT Derrick Smith, Sue Magnier, Michael Tabor Aidan O'Brien IRE
2) 61 CHAMONIX (IRE) Sue Magnier, Michael Tabor & Derrick Smith Aidan O'Brien IRE
3) (5)-(3)(2)(5)(3)(0)5 DARTFORD (USA) Bjorn Nielsen John Gosden
4) 21-123 ENCKE (USA) Godolphin Mahmood Al Zarooni
5) 2111 GUARANTEE Highclere Thoroughbred Racing-Authorized William Haggas
6) 1-101 IMPERIAL MONARCH (IRE) Sue Magnier, Michael Tabor & Derrick Smith Aidan O'Brien IRE
7) 11-1(1)242 MAIN SEQUENCE (USA) Niarchos Family David Lanigan Ted Durcan
8) 3113 MICHELANGELO Bjorn Nielsen John Gosden
9) 01-5115 THOMAS CHIPPENDALE (IRE) Sir Robert Ogden Sir Henry Cecil Tom Queally
10) 1-21431 THOUGHT WORTHY (USA) George Strawbridge John Gosden
11) (2)(1)2111 URSA MAJOR (IRE) Andrew Tinkler Tommy Carmody IRE

11 five-day confirmations
4 Irish-trained
 
Aidan O'Brien and Joseph O'Brien were interviewed on a media trip to Ballydoyle today and a release on their thoughts about Camelot will follow.

LADBROKES ST LEGER
QUOTES FROM THE OTHER CONNECTIONS

Main Sequence, Niarchos Family, David Lanigan

Trainer David Lanigan said: "Main Sequence worked on Saturday and everything went fine. He will have his final piece of work on Wednesday.

"He will also be left in the Prix Niel but the plan is to go for the Ladbrokes St Leger.

"I think the Great Voltigeur was a farce, to put it politely! It was run at a hack canter and the time was six seconds slower than any other race run that day. Basically, it turned into a sprint and Main Sequence is not a sprinter, it was very difficult for him.

"Hopefully, there will be plenty of pace in the St Leger, I know John Gosden is planning to run a pacemaker and it will be a true run race which is what we want.

"Ted Durcan will ride again."

Encke, Godolphin, Mahmood Al Zarooni

Trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni remarked "Everything is fine with Encke and I think that he will head to Doncaster in the same form as when he ran at York.

"This will be the biggest test of his career and we still don't know how good he really is. He has never been in a Group One contest before but I think that he will run a good race - he is a tough horse who always gives everything.

"The distance will be fine for him and he seems to cope with most types of ground. We can dream of beating Camelot but anything can happen in this game and our horse deserves to take his chance."

Thomas Chippendale, Sir Robert Ogden, Sir Henry Cecil

Barry Simpson, racing manager to owner Sir Robert Ogden, said: "Thomas Chippendale has been confirmed for the Ladbrokes St Leger.

"He is in good form and has been working well since he ran at York. We are looking forward to a good run from him.

"From our point of view, the Great Voltigeur was a bit of a wasted race as there was no pace and the time was very slow.

"I am not suggesting he would have won, but I think you can put a line through the race as a Leger trial for our horse - it certainly didn't suit us and maybe one or two of the other runners as well.

"As a Yorkshireman, I know the Ladbrokes St Leger is a race Sir Robert would dearly love to win."

Guarantee, Highclere Thoroughbred Racing, William Haggas

Harry Herbert, racing manager for owners Highclere Thoroughbred Racing's Authorized syndicate, said: "William (Haggas) reports Guarantee to be in great form. His latest piece of work was on Friday and he worked well.

"Since York, he has been eating up, bucking and kicking. It is encouraging to know that the horse is clearly thriving and hopefully he is still improving too.

"Obviously, it is a massive leap from winning a 0-105 handicap to taking on Classic horses in the Ladbrokes St Leger but this will be his last race of the season and we have nothing to lose.

"I would be delighted if we could be in the unsaddling enclosure with a horse in the first four on Saturday. Hopefully, he can do himself justice. Phillip Makin, who knows him so well, rides once again.

"Fingers crossed, we will get there in one piece. It will be great to see Camelot run but hopefully we can spoil the party! We have seen upsets in the St Leger, including Shergar, but for us it is just so exciting to just have a contender.

"Anything can happen with horses stepping up in trip but at least we know our horse has proven stamina, as he won over a mile and six furlongs at York last time.

"Guarantee was a 50,000 guineas breeze-up horse and for the shareholders to have a runner in Classic with a real shout is amazing.

"He will be our fourth runner in the Ladbrokes St Leger. Our previous three runners all ran well, with Highest faring best when runner-up in 2002."

Ursa Major, Andrew Tinkler, Tommy Carmody IRE

Tim Jones, racing manager to owner Andrew Tinkler, said: "Ursa Major has been left in the Ladbrokes St Leger and the Irish St Leger and the decision about where to run will be taken later in the week once we have seen the entries.

"He has improved with every run and we hope there is further improvement in him. It is typical of his breeding that he has improved as time has gone on.

"We are now throwing him in at the deep end on Saturday."

Thought Worthy, George Strawbridge, John Gosden

John Gosden said: "He's been fine since York where he showed he's a very game horse. He's from a family of tough staying horses.

"Thought Worthy's brother Lucarno was also fourth in the Derby and won the Great Voltigeur. Lucarno then won the Ladbrokes St Leger and I hope Thought Worthy can do the same.

"We are taking on a very fine horse in Camelot and naturally all the focus has been on him and the Triple Crown. But it takes other horses to make a race and Thought Worthy will stay the trip. Whether he can stay it fast enough is the question."

Michelangelo, Bjorn Nielsen, John Gosden

John Gosden said: "Michelangelo is fine and has done nothing wrong in his four races. He was third in the Gordon Stakes at Goodwood which is not everybody's track.

"He was staying on well at the end of that race and so did Arctic Cosmos before winning the Ladbrokes St Leger two years ago."

Dartford, Bjorn Nielsen, John Gosden

John Gosden said: "Dartford is a pacemaker for Michelangelo. The one thing we do not want is a stop-start race. He is running to ensure a decent regular pace."

DONCASTER GROUND

The going at Doncaster remains:

GOOD TO FIRM, GOOD IN PLACES

Clerk of the Course Jon Pullin reported today: "We finished the weekend's watering cycle this morning, with an average of 20 millimetres applied to the track.

"The forecast is for a few showers in the early hours of tomorrow which should yield around two to three millimetres.

"Tomorrow and Wednesday are forecast to be overcast and there is a chance of some light showers.

"From Thursday onwards, conditions are predicted to become drier and brighter."

For further information, please contact:

Betting available in the w/o Camelot market

Sorely tempted by the w/o market as so much is taken up by IM. Likely to be relatively fast at Donny, surely only left in as a precaution of it going soft - Irish Derby all over again?

Yes it looks that way. I have already backed TW and did so again in the w/o market. But I wouldn't be as confident as Donny racecourse are about the weather forecast. There is plenty of rain around the surrounding aread the next two days. It may not be forecast to hit them but it's close enough for comfort.

Actually think that if we knew for sure that Ursa Major was coming for the English version, 33/1 e/w and 12/1 in the w/o market would be interesting. Clearly progressing and proven over the trip I think he's too big.

However may choose to stay in Ireland for what is perceived as more suitable ground.

TC ew in the w/o market @12s is pretty much a bet to nothing in my book

LWHM - I think to call a St.Leger E/W shot a 'bet to nothing' is a gross exaggeration, as there are 9 colts running for three places.
Perhaps that should be 8 running for 2 places as Camelot is long odds on for the frame - Imperial Monarch's looking unlikely to run.

For that reason, the E/W on Thomas Chippendale is far from 'safe' as after Camelot, it's TOO competitive.
I'm not putting the boot in on TC as he's got decent credentials...he's a small winner for me too

He said in the w/o market, so effectively 4 places.

But w/o Camelot there is 8 running for 3 places

1/2 more who wont run and 1 who has no chance

Blimey have just seen that and Lads have Ursa Major at 16s w/o Camelot as well. Have played TC enough and would like to see a little more rain before playing any more if at all.

What I cannot understand at this stage is the price of Guarantee. OK he won the Melrose very well and in the style of a progressive horse but 4/1 in the w/o market? Don't get me wrong he could be up to it and the rest could be described as below average for a standard year but still don't think he deserves to be that short.

Looks like I did misinterpret what LWHM said, but it's still no gimme!

Not even for Camelot to get placed
He STILL has to get home (class doesn't always ensure so) and like with the Cheltenham Gold Cup, the likely strong pace & extra distance means that much inferior opposition are better equipped to appreciate the demands, and finish the race off more effectively.

I said months ago, I'll be happy to lay Camelot for the frame (and even lower I/R as he's sure to be travelling well) though I did try those same tactics in the Derby
This will be much harder!

I think the place backers of Camelot are bananas, as there are much better long odds-on shots every day!

If the Ground is Good or better then i'd be amazed if Camelot & Thought Worthy dont make the frame. That leaves one place.

Main Sequence is Even money on here for a place, first 3, and that is shocking value also imo. I dont think he'll stay.

roobuck Lads are NRNB as far as i know so very little downside to that 16s ew Ursa

Many thanks BJG - good point, really well made. I'm in

They are NRNB on the race anyway so assume that applies to the w/o market!

Yes it does - checked before placing the bet

It was a good point but the goon I spoke to the phone claims it is not a NRNB market.

If you pay peanuts.....

A top 4 place is not nailed, but Dartford unlikely to plod on well enough, I can't see Michelangelo, Chamonix or Encke being good enough, Ursa M will probably stay at home. Guarantee shouldn't be up to it - only concern is that I fully respect Haggas' views and he doesn't overface his horses. He has an amazing classic ratio.

Which leaves Thought Worthy, Main Seq and Thomas. Main Seq rightfully fav in my book, but has to be a doubt on stamina even if he looks like he might even improve for the step up. TW solid enough, but Thomas beat him easily at Ascot and I would expect the same again given a truly run race. I think soft ground would have inconvenienced others rather than benefitting Thomas.

Rang up again and spoke to a different person who confirmed it was NRNB

LWHM - On the whole I agree but I do think you underestimate Michelangelo's chance - do think Buick may choose him

Michelangelo is likely to wear blinkers for the first time in the Ladbrokes St Leger at Doncaster on Saturday.

John Gosden fitted Arctic Cosmos with the same headgear when he landed the Town Moor Classic two years ago and the trainer is set to repeat the trick this weekend.

Gosden told British Champions Series TV: "I think Michelangelo would be a strong possibility (to wear blinkers) for the same reason (as Arctic Cosmos).

"He's a very genuine horse but he's quite dreamy and lacks focus. I've popped them on him, William was happy with them on, just to give him focus."

Michelangelo is set to be joined by pacemaker Dartford, as well as his Great Voltigeur Stakes-winning stablemate Thought Worthy.

Gosden is seeking to not only foil Camelot's quest for the Triple Crown, but also to complete a hat-trick in the race after Masked Marvel's triumph 12 months ago.

"We've made the decision to head for Doncaster (with Ursa Major) and let him take his chance against his own age group," said Tinkler's racing manager, Tim Jones.

"He's done absolutely nothing wrong up until now and appears to be very progressive.

"He did his final piece of work this morning in advance of the weekend. It all went very well, so it's all systems go for Doncaster.

"I think Johnny will ride him."

great stuff

Any times experts got a view on the ground today?

Unless it suddenly turns hot, I'd be surprised if 'firm' will be in the going description come Sat

the times on Wednesday indicate good going and there is no rain forecast

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2651123

so likely fast side of good

Glad to see W Buick has stuck with Thought Worthy in the Leger.
He is the form horse of the pair of Jonny Gs main hopes.
I fully expect him to confirm the York win over Main Sequence, in fact to increase it over this trip of 1m6f+.
He looks the bet w/o Camelot (was 4s with Hills) & for the place market on here.

I think the argument for Guarantee rests around the point that he brings different form lines to the race, admittedly from handicaps and a relatively modest mark. The others are all pretty exposed as being below Camelot at up to 12 furlongs and only Thomas Chippendale would appeal each way if the ground is on the soft side.

The Melrose was a very hot race as was a handicap a couple of weeks earlier at Haydock won by Gospel Choir and the one won by Godolphin at Ascot last weekend and these races were not far off Leger trials.

Guarantee improved loads for his Ripon win, could do again and put over 3 lengths betwen himself and 2 other fancied, and presumably well handicapped rivals in the final furlong so stamina won't be an issue. He was getting only 3lbs from Sir Graham Wade, who admittedly didn't run his race at York but he's considered Johnston's best staying 3 year old and at big prices I thought him worth a bet a couple of weeks ago.

would camelot have acted around ripon,and would he have won the melrose recieving weight,

my retirement quad cast if 1st Thomas C
                                          2nd TW
                                          3rd Camelot
                                          4th Ursa M

GL all

Back to work on Monday then eh

THOUGHT WORTHY - the winner.

Camelot canters home

Well done backers - if there were any.

Even the boysNblue did not fancy it!!!
Strange one for the form book.

1st time poster, would Camelot have won a Sandown handicap off 90?

Sickener.

Encke ran  close to his Gordon stakes form beating Michaelangelo a bit further. He probably idled a bit in front and it didn't look to me like Camelot was ever going to get past him. You'd have to say
Cecil made a big mistake not running Noble Mission who beat Encke at Goodwood though Encke may have improved a bit.
Camelot clocked on my figures a 13 + second last furlong(a slow time on fast ground) and didn't see the trip out well enough.
If they ran the race again with a faster early pace ,I reckon Encke would win again possibly by further if the jockey held onto him a bit longer.