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Sounded like Henry was favouring Queen Anne with step up to 1m2 (york) later in season tho never mentioned the Eclipse
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SHC will want him to run at Royal Ascot - I would say that rules out the Eclipse which is less than 3 weeks after. The Juddmonte is an extended 10f so it would not surprise me if Frankel only runs beyond a mile in the Champion Stakes (his final race before stud)
Now is the time for 1M2F. He has proved himself again this season and now appears further ahead than the same horses he was beating last year - what's the point in keeping him in training to do the same things?
POW first - knock Cirrus de Aigles off his perch. Then if Camelot wins the Derby, hopefully they can meet in the Eclipse.....though I accept the gap between the two would make this seem unlikely.
POW first - knock Cirrus de Aigles off his perch. Then if Camelot wins the Derby, hopefully they can meet in the Eclipse.....though I accept the gap between the two would make this seem unlikely.
Listening to HRAC on RUK it sounds like Frankel will only try 10f once. And I dont expect it to be until later in the season. Quite possibly as AT says, on Champions Day.
You may be right sint - a complete waste imo and would fail to engender any more interest.....unless BC does pitch up at Goodwood
May never race outside the south of England.
It's a shame Godolphin or Coolmore didn't have this horse, cann't believe they would adopt such cowardly
campaign.
It's a shame Godolphin or Coolmore didn't have this horse, cann't believe they would adopt such cowardly
campaign.
I think the Queen A St at Royal Ascot has always been the Plan.
I personally agree with Tom Segal, that Frankels 1st race at 10f should be at York in Juddmonte on the 22nd of Aug, with the added bonus for me that i will be there to see it.
Then as long as the ground has not gone to soft, he can finish of by winning the Champion Stakes at Ascot.
I personally agree with Tom Segal, that Frankels 1st race at 10f should be at York in Juddmonte on the 22nd of Aug, with the added bonus for me that i will be there to see it.
Then as long as the ground has not gone to soft, he can finish of by winning the Champion Stakes at Ascot.
I think it is harsh to be critical of the owners after all Frankel has never ducked a challenge and has only just turned 4. Sticking at a mile however is pointless as he is vastly superior over a mile on turf to any other horse in the world. The ambitious route would be to take on Cirrus Des Aigles at Ascot over 10 furlongs, drop back to a mile and win the Sussex easily snd then long term go to the Breeders Cup Classic and face off with the emerging US stars I'll Have Another and Bodemeister. This would be the route i would like to see but i doubt Khalid Abdullah will be so adventurous.
I hope Frankel doesn't run in the Champion stakes as his swansong as it is a second rate Group 1. Cirrus Des Aigles is a gelding so can't run in the Arc so would show up but all other elite horses would run in the Arc and wheeling back so soon for the Champion stakes means horses who take in both races would be well over the top.
some proper shyte being spoken on here by people without a clue. Gutless connections? Cowardly campaigns? He's only run once so far this season ffs!! He is running as a 4 year old. If they were gutless he would be retired by now. We have no idea what his programme will be and as Sir H said they will take it one step at a time.
Do we really want to imagine what would have happened if Godolphin had owned this horse? Bad example to use. Or Coolmore. Just look at SYT.
He is in the best possible hands and if people cannot enjoy watching this amazing animal they are truly following the wrong sport.
Unbelievable.
Do we really want to imagine what would have happened if Godolphin had owned this horse? Bad example to use. Or Coolmore. Just look at SYT.
He is in the best possible hands and if people cannot enjoy watching this amazing animal they are truly following the wrong sport.
Unbelievable.
Why send him to the US to run on dirt against horses that are running on loads of drugs to aid them, that should be outlawed in all racing.
Tell the Yanks to send there horse junkies over here for a gd hammering from the best horse on the Planet FRANKEL.
Tell the Yanks to send there horse junkies over here for a gd hammering from the best horse on the Planet FRANKEL.
Joni, So You Think is Group 1 class but nowhere near the elite of racing. Aussie based horses also run a string of races in a short space of time so SYT taking in the Arc, Champion stakes and the Breeders Cup Classic may seem over ambitious but the simple fact is that So You Think really ain't that good!!!
People want to see Frankel tested and pushed to the limits of his ability so what is wrong with that??
People want to see Frankel tested and pushed to the limits of his ability so what is wrong with that??
Yawn yawn Miller i wasn't expecting the usual anti US drivel on a Betfair forum but clearly i was wrong!! Bet you weren't complaining when Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator ran one two in the Breeders Cup Classic at Santa Anita were you?? Both horses on lasix running on the proride surface which was basically turf against the mighty Curlin who would have dusted them for breakfast on an even playing field!!
If the Iron horse Giant's Causeway and Sakhee were able to run the mighty Tiznow so close in the Classic in consecutive years then what would be wrong with Abdullah taking on the best the US have to offer and showing Frankel a colt named in honour of the legend Bobby Frankel to be possibly the greatest horse ever??? Oh no lets finish off in the Chumpion stakes ( typo deliberate ) to show just how good Frankel is!!!
If the Iron horse Giant's Causeway and Sakhee were able to run the mighty Tiznow so close in the Classic in consecutive years then what would be wrong with Abdullah taking on the best the US have to offer and showing Frankel a colt named in honour of the legend Bobby Frankel to be possibly the greatest horse ever??? Oh no lets finish off in the Chumpion stakes ( typo deliberate ) to show just how good Frankel is!!!
He went for the Guineas 14 days after his Greenham win so don't necessarily see length of time between Royal Ascot and Eclipse as a problem especially as Queen Anne is on the Tuesday and it looks unlikely he'll have a hard race! Vibs suggest he won't go that route though.
Who is going to oppose him in Queen Anne though? Might end up as a match against SOS Brilliante after latter is supplemented to clean up place prize money!
Who is going to oppose him in Queen Anne though? Might end up as a match against SOS Brilliante after latter is supplemented to clean up place prize money!
Lava, NO horses should be running on drugs anywhere in my view.
Ravens Pass did not win the Classic on DIRT.
Let them come over here and take the CHAMP on at Ascot, Gwood, York & The Mighty Frankel will put them All to the sword, over 1mile it would be no contest. And when he steps up to 10f, i hope he is even better, send them over, if they dare, but they wont, like i said already, the so called US top horses are bread to run on dirt & sadly, dope.
Ravens Pass did not win the Classic on DIRT.
Let them come over here and take the CHAMP on at Ascot, Gwood, York & The Mighty Frankel will put them All to the sword, over 1mile it would be no contest. And when he steps up to 10f, i hope he is even better, send them over, if they dare, but they wont, like i said already, the so called US top horses are bread to run on dirt & sadly, dope.
I have no problem with people wanting him to be pushed to his limits - of course I do too. I have a problem with people saying they are gutless and cowardly when the season has only just began and he has been kept in training unlike so many other great horses who were retired at 3.
So Miller when horses are running in 100+ degrees heat with horrendous humidity in the US then it isn't more likely for a horse to bleed than running at 70 degree heat in the UK!!?? Also lasix is a diuretic which thins the blood to reduce the chance of bleeding but has no proof of being performance enhancing. If all US horses are doped up then how come they were able to do so well in Dubai over the years where all medication is banned?? Something about your anti US comments doesn't make sense!!!
Also why would US owners send their horses to compete in the UK when you can win more money in a US Grade 2 event than you can in a European Group 1!!! I think that answers that one!!!
Finally if you call a horse Frankel after a great US trainer then wouldn't it seem logical that this superhorse would compete at least once in the US so he can be fully appreciated outside of the South of England?? What is wrong with taking on new challenges and becoming the most sought after stallion in the world???
Also why would US owners send their horses to compete in the UK when you can win more money in a US Grade 2 event than you can in a European Group 1!!! I think that answers that one!!!
Finally if you call a horse Frankel after a great US trainer then wouldn't it seem logical that this superhorse would compete at least once in the US so he can be fully appreciated outside of the South of England?? What is wrong with taking on new challenges and becoming the most sought after stallion in the world???
So let me get this right Lava, Frankel should run in the US on dirt because he is named after 1 of there great trainers? that makes a lot of sense (prob only 2 u tho)
The drugs are because of the dirt surface they are asked 2 run.
The new track in Dubai is Tepeta is it not, which the yanks dont like, they dont seem 2 be sending them over for the World Cup anymore, i wonder why?
The crux of it is, US horses are bread for dirt racing, Frankel is not, he is turf bread, end off.
P.S and is offically the best horse on the PLANET!!
Nite Nite
The drugs are because of the dirt surface they are asked 2 run.
The new track in Dubai is Tepeta is it not, which the yanks dont like, they dont seem 2 be sending them over for the World Cup anymore, i wonder why?
The crux of it is, US horses are bread for dirt racing, Frankel is not, he is turf bread, end off.
P.S and is offically the best horse on the PLANET!!
Nite Nite
ZZZZZZZZ Miller!!! I do know that Meydan is Tapeta which is a surface that lends itself to second rate turf horses rather than elite dirt horses. By the way US horses aren't made of flour and yeast they are BRED just like Englsih horses. Guess somebody needs his spell check on all the time!!!
It may also come as a shock to you that the vast majority of European horses do indeed have US bloodlines hence would run equally well on dirt!!! I could educate you but clearly judging by your inept spelling it would prove futile!!! Have you ever heard of Distorted Humour, More Than Ready, Speightstown etc?? If so please name a UK horse sired by them as i wouldn't have a problem!!!
A bientot imbecile!!!
It may also come as a shock to you that the vast majority of European horses do indeed have US bloodlines hence would run equally well on dirt!!! I could educate you but clearly judging by your inept spelling it would prove futile!!! Have you ever heard of Distorted Humour, More Than Ready, Speightstown etc?? If so please name a UK horse sired by them as i wouldn't have a problem!!!
A bientot imbecile!!!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ MILLER I THINK THIERS A RACE CALLED THE BREEDERS CUP TURF HE CAN RUN IN THAT ALSO HE COULD RUN I N THE BREEDERS CUP MILE HE DOSNT NEED TO RUN ON DIRT
joni - whilst gutless and cowardly are too strong a description, to go for for the QA over the POW would be conservative and imo actually a little boring.
The horse has proved himself utterly brilliant over a mile and it is clear that he will stay further. He will only run against the same horses again in the QA and for the opening race of a great festival it will be a non event. After the POW he can always come back in distance for the Sussex where he will also have the chance to prove himself against this year's classic generation and as a very longshot, BC
You may enjoy watching a fantastic horse in full flow, no doubt a sight to behold. However I for one would pay no real interest in the QA if that was the route he was to go though obviously the media would play it up to the max to gather in those currently not into the sport
The horse has proved himself utterly brilliant over a mile and it is clear that he will stay further. He will only run against the same horses again in the QA and for the opening race of a great festival it will be a non event. After the POW he can always come back in distance for the Sussex where he will also have the chance to prove himself against this year's classic generation and as a very longshot, BC
You may enjoy watching a fantastic horse in full flow, no doubt a sight to behold. However I for one would pay no real interest in the QA if that was the route he was to go though obviously the media would play it up to the max to gather in those currently not into the sport
Frankel running in the QA might put off connections of Excelebration,Strong Suit, Immortal Verse and others. They know they have no chance and might want to aim for other races they can actually win. Could be a small field.
I assume you don't like watching Big Bucks then. Or Quevega. I would love to see him step up eventually and he will. But saying they must avoid races because noone will turn up to take them on strikes me as strange. If he wins the QA he will have the full set of mile Group 1's from 2,000 onwards. Not sure how many times that has been done but can't think of many.
If you get bored watching Frankel thankfully there is plenty of other racing on every day.
If you get bored watching Frankel thankfully there is plenty of other racing on every day.
Quevega is actually a good example - she should run in the stayers not the Mares race each year.
And anyway there are always new horses to take on BB and I don't think this is going to be the case in the QA. Royal Ascot should be about the spectacle of competitive racing - last year it was Goldikova vs CC that captured the imagination
And anyway there are always new horses to take on BB and I don't think this is going to be the case in the QA. Royal Ascot should be about the spectacle of competitive racing - last year it was Goldikova vs CC that captured the imagination
You dont say messi
The BC turf is over 1m4f, so thats a no go.
Frankel does not need 2 go 2 the turf mile at the BC to become the best miler Ever, he already is that.
So get a grip "wee man"
Lava, who over here really gives a toss about US dirt racing??
Other than you?? Or maybe you are from the US, & dirt racing is your thing, gd luck with that, if it makes you money.
My point is Frankel IS the top rated horse on the planet, & does not need to go over to the US to race on dirt to prove that fact.
So my cry would be, the US & the rest of the world should send over there best milers (turf or dirt) & take on the best miler on the planet, and get there butts kicked.
Tho the only prob is, the US horses would prob need to go into rehab for a few months to help them get "clean" [:laugh:
The BC turf is over 1m4f, so thats a no go.
Frankel does not need 2 go 2 the turf mile at the BC to become the best miler Ever, he already is that.
So get a grip "wee man"
Lava, who over here really gives a toss about US dirt racing??
Other than you?? Or maybe you are from the US, & dirt racing is your thing, gd luck with that, if it makes you money.
My point is Frankel IS the top rated horse on the planet, & does not need to go over to the US to race on dirt to prove that fact.
So my cry would be, the US & the rest of the world should send over there best milers (turf or dirt) & take on the best miler on the planet, and get there butts kicked.
Tho the only prob is, the US horses would prob need to go into rehab for a few months to help them get "clean" [:laugh:
Well's 4/5 to remain unbeaten this year so why not take advantage of his "cowardly" programme?
Miller i appreciate all racing whether it be turf, dirt, flat, jumps ete etc. Maybe you should broaden your horizons and consider reviewing your bigotted opinions of US dirt racing. Do you not rate the likes of Secretariat, Cigar, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Ghostzapper etc etc??
The official world rating system is also flawed Miller as it is a well known fact that milers get better ratings than sprinters so how can you guarantee that Frankel is better than Black Caviar for example?? You can't can you so this best on the PLANET stuff is nonsense!! Monterosso is rated in the top few in the world on the back of a win on the joke tapeta surface in the Dubai World Cup so how can these ratings be taken seriously??
In my opinion elite horses should be challenged and pushed and the owners of Black Caviar should be commended for first of all running her over 5 - 7 furlongs and for coming over to Royal Ascot later in the year. Frankel should show his greatness by running at different distances such as stepping up to 10 furlongs and taking on Cirrus des Aigles. The Classic this year at Churchill Downs is also a perfectly legitimate race for a horse who could well handle the dirt and at the same time take down a $5,000,000 purse and potentially retire undefeated as a legend. Manny Pacquiao is a 6 weight boxing champ so why can't a horse do the same??
The official world rating system is also flawed Miller as it is a well known fact that milers get better ratings than sprinters so how can you guarantee that Frankel is better than Black Caviar for example?? You can't can you so this best on the PLANET stuff is nonsense!! Monterosso is rated in the top few in the world on the back of a win on the joke tapeta surface in the Dubai World Cup so how can these ratings be taken seriously??
In my opinion elite horses should be challenged and pushed and the owners of Black Caviar should be commended for first of all running her over 5 - 7 furlongs and for coming over to Royal Ascot later in the year. Frankel should show his greatness by running at different distances such as stepping up to 10 furlongs and taking on Cirrus des Aigles. The Classic this year at Churchill Downs is also a perfectly legitimate race for a horse who could well handle the dirt and at the same time take down a $5,000,000 purse and potentially retire undefeated as a legend. Manny Pacquiao is a 6 weight boxing champ so why can't a horse do the same??
It's funny Lavaman - you think SYT "really ain't that good" but yet think a more ambituous target for Frankel would be to take on Cirrus Des Aigles over 10f.
Kinda odd considering Cirrus Des Aigles and So You Think finished within a head of one another last October.
Is So You Think still under consideration for races over a mile. They have a few options at 10f but only one obvious one at 8f (Excelebration). So You Think might run in the Queen Anne in my opinion. Might be interesting if he did.
Kinda odd considering Cirrus Des Aigles and So You Think finished within a head of one another last October.
Is So You Think still under consideration for races over a mile. They have a few options at 10f but only one obvious one at 8f (Excelebration). So You Think might run in the Queen Anne in my opinion. Might be interesting if he did.
Viva irrespective of the merits of SYT, Cirrus des Aigles, I would suggest, is the current best in Europe over 10F. That is why it is the challenge that should be next for Frankel, rather than simply confirm he is by far and away the best over 8F
I think 8f might be SYT's best trip in Europe, in all his 10f races he travelled like the best horse, well worth a go and finishing anywhere near Frankel would hugely enhance his reputation.
Dear Lava (i will open up with that line because you seem to be taking a lot of this subject 2 heart, keep calm)
I have no wish to "broaden my horizons" with dirt racing, i prefer to stick at what i know best, which is flat turf racing here & to some extent in Ire & Fr.
My anti dope stance in horse racing is sound & its about time the US were of the same mind, NO athlete of any kind, horse or otherwise, should be allowed to compete with drugs to aid them. Its time the yanks cleaned there acts up on this matter, which i beleave they intend to do at the Breeders Cup soon.
As for Frankel "needs" to step up to 10f and take on the best at that trip, by all acounts he is going to, which will prob be at York (Juddmonte) & ground permitting at the Champions meeting at Ascot in Oct, The Champion Stakes, which Cirrus won last year.
Which i fully expect Frankel to win.
I think its great that the Wonder mare BC is coming over 2 Royal Ascot & prob thrash our bunch of average sprinters, i hope she puts up a 5star show & wins well (as i have her in my 10 to follow)
She is the best sprinter in the world, just as Frankel is the best miler.
They are not going to meet, at least not until they mate in the future, what price would that yearling make at the sales!!!
neill d, SYT is a very gd horse, but Frankel would MURDER him a 1mile, 6L +
I have no wish to "broaden my horizons" with dirt racing, i prefer to stick at what i know best, which is flat turf racing here & to some extent in Ire & Fr.
My anti dope stance in horse racing is sound & its about time the US were of the same mind, NO athlete of any kind, horse or otherwise, should be allowed to compete with drugs to aid them. Its time the yanks cleaned there acts up on this matter, which i beleave they intend to do at the Breeders Cup soon.
As for Frankel "needs" to step up to 10f and take on the best at that trip, by all acounts he is going to, which will prob be at York (Juddmonte) & ground permitting at the Champions meeting at Ascot in Oct, The Champion Stakes, which Cirrus won last year.
Which i fully expect Frankel to win.
I think its great that the Wonder mare BC is coming over 2 Royal Ascot & prob thrash our bunch of average sprinters, i hope she puts up a 5star show & wins well (as i have her in my 10 to follow)
She is the best sprinter in the world, just as Frankel is the best miler.
They are not going to meet, at least not until they mate in the future, what price would that yearling make at the sales!!!
neill d, SYT is a very gd horse, but Frankel would MURDER him a 1mile, 6L +
Miller my friend i shall commence first of all with the drugs issue in the US. The simple fact of the matter is that all steroids are indeed banned in US racing however i believe the use of lasix will continue. Lasix simply thins the blood of a horse so reduces the chances of a horse bleeding but is not performance enhancing unlike steroids.
Onto Frankel and why shouldn't he meet Black Caviar?? He has the pace to easily mop up the European group 1 sprints so what would be wrong with taking on the mighty Black Caviar?? Horse racing is a sport and the punters, fans etc deserve to see the best v the best. For some reason European horses lack flexibility in distance as owners / trainers are scared of taking risks. In the US the mighty Ghostzapper in his 4 year old career won Grade 1's ranging from 6 to 10 furlongs including the Met Mile and Breeders Cup Classic which are the elite US races. Frankel could do the same and win the POW and drop back and win the July Cup as he is that good. It would be a true feat of class instead of just sticking to miling.
Finally my opinion of So You Think is that he is a all hype and no substance horse. Yes he is decent but for me he is more of a grinder than a quality animal. Also you guys are joking that he would be a really good miler??? The horse lacks a turn of foot and i think Dubawi Gold would iron him out no sweat!!! I recollect the other Aussie hypester Starspangledbanner!!!! Two wins due to rail hugging runs, one of which should have been a disqualification in the July Cup due to cutting up the whole field!!! After that he got dusted in the Nunthorpe and then belted by Markab in the Haydock Sprint!!! Coolmore do indeed over hype their new recruits and SYT and SSB are more trousers than substance!!!
Onto Frankel and why shouldn't he meet Black Caviar?? He has the pace to easily mop up the European group 1 sprints so what would be wrong with taking on the mighty Black Caviar?? Horse racing is a sport and the punters, fans etc deserve to see the best v the best. For some reason European horses lack flexibility in distance as owners / trainers are scared of taking risks. In the US the mighty Ghostzapper in his 4 year old career won Grade 1's ranging from 6 to 10 furlongs including the Met Mile and Breeders Cup Classic which are the elite US races. Frankel could do the same and win the POW and drop back and win the July Cup as he is that good. It would be a true feat of class instead of just sticking to miling.
Finally my opinion of So You Think is that he is a all hype and no substance horse. Yes he is decent but for me he is more of a grinder than a quality animal. Also you guys are joking that he would be a really good miler??? The horse lacks a turn of foot and i think Dubawi Gold would iron him out no sweat!!! I recollect the other Aussie hypester Starspangledbanner!!!! Two wins due to rail hugging runs, one of which should have been a disqualification in the July Cup due to cutting up the whole field!!! After that he got dusted in the Nunthorpe and then belted by Markab in the Haydock Sprint!!! Coolmore do indeed over hype their new recruits and SYT and SSB are more trousers than substance!!!
Not even given an entry for the Irish Champion at this early stage - wrong decision and a little bit insulting if you ask me. The Irsh Champion is a proper Group 1 race that should attract the very best horses imo
The Irish Champion is hardly ever a target for non-Irish horses - more of a prep race for the Arc.
Lava, I dont know what the full crack is with the use of drugs in the US, but whatever it is, it should be stopped, & if that means they have to bring to an end the racing on dirt, then so be it. Horses should only race on turf & a gd all weather surface imo.
Cant agree with you that our horses lack flexibility, have you not heard of Sea The Stars!! One of the best in my time, what he did at 3 was fantastic, & will prob never be done again in one season.
SYT was a bit over rated when he came over here, but middle dist racing in Aus is not strong, where over here it is our strongest part of top G1 racing, normally.
Iam a big fan of AOB & the Coolmore team, sure they do hype up there Stallions, but its there biz to do so, thats where the real money is in our Great Sport of Racing.
There record in top G1s in Europe especially, is just amazing, for me they are the Big power in racing, & it looks like Camelot is going to contiue that this season, along with a gd few other top class ones they have, the 1st 2 Brit classics in the bag.
Cant agree with you that our horses lack flexibility, have you not heard of Sea The Stars!! One of the best in my time, what he did at 3 was fantastic, & will prob never be done again in one season.
SYT was a bit over rated when he came over here, but middle dist racing in Aus is not strong, where over here it is our strongest part of top G1 racing, normally.
Iam a big fan of AOB & the Coolmore team, sure they do hype up there Stallions, but its there biz to do so, thats where the real money is in our Great Sport of Racing.
There record in top G1s in Europe especially, is just amazing, for me they are the Big power in racing, & it looks like Camelot is going to contiue that this season, along with a gd few other top class ones they have, the 1st 2 Brit classics in the bag.
Miller the surface isn't the issue in the US as most horses that run on turf or dirt use lasix. Lasix is a diuretic which thins the blood so many trainers prefer to use this immediately on a horse than allowing them to bleed and then administer. I for one am a big fan of dirt racing and in all honesty prefer it to turf racing. The US is now clean off al steroids and the lasix helps with the climate issues as it can be 100+ celsius at Hollywood Park etc etc in the summer months so horses would naturally bleed in such temperatures.
On to sea The Stars and to be fair he only scraped home in a weakish Guineas and after that did enough in each race to win but he never faced brilliant opposition so how much he had in the tank you would never know. I know he was given a huge rating on potential but does that make him a great?? To be fair he was a good sight better than New Approach who must be another super hypester who won a terrible Derby and an appalling Chumpion stakes and got a whooping rating!!!
On to sea The Stars and to be fair he only scraped home in a weakish Guineas and after that did enough in each race to win but he never faced brilliant opposition so how much he had in the tank you would never know. I know he was given a huge rating on potential but does that make him a great?? To be fair he was a good sight better than New Approach who must be another super hypester who won a terrible Derby and an appalling Chumpion stakes and got a whooping rating!!!
he didnt 'just scrape' home in the guineas, watch the race again, he is completely on top by the line.
as for being great?
can u name any other horse that has achieved what he has? in 300 years of the sport? dancing brave couldnt do it. mil reef couldnt do it. he broke track track records and won the arc after pulling half the race after a long season, bad passage etc..
the thing about sea the stars is that there were never any excuses for him. there didnt have to be because he always had plenty left in the tank.
it wasnt a fluke.
someday another 3 yr old will do what he did, but we'll all be dead unfortunately!
as for being great?
can u name any other horse that has achieved what he has? in 300 years of the sport? dancing brave couldnt do it. mil reef couldnt do it. he broke track track records and won the arc after pulling half the race after a long season, bad passage etc..
the thing about sea the stars is that there were never any excuses for him. there didnt have to be because he always had plenty left in the tank.
it wasnt a fluke.
someday another 3 yr old will do what he did, but we'll all be dead unfortunately!
ilikewavingatbuses - STS won the Guineas and then even Oxx stated he wouldn't be able to win over a mile again!! He also never won a brilliant Derby or Arc for that matter. Could he have beaten the likes of Zarkava, Rail Link, Hurricane Run and Dalakhani or was he the recipient of a weak year?? I think some of the mentioned would have had him for breakfast!!! Rail Link beat Manduro, Hurricane Run and the monster Deep Impact and he never got a whopping rating yet he beat three of the best we have seen in the last 10 years all in one race!!! Ratings are quite often a joke decided by some old boys who have a soft spot for certain horses!!!
well sure u could say that about any horse lava! i mean if two derby winners never met u could speculate til the cows came home u know. He beat 9 (multiple) g1 winners in the arc alone. im of the opinion that of course there will be stronger years than others but overall, there is a window with regard to ability when talking about horses. i mean take workforces derby for example, as much as i think sea the stars or dancing brave are better than him, id wager that had they both been in WF's derby where he broke the track record, they would not have beaten him by THAT much. of course this cannot be proven, but the horse although under gf cond ran a hell of a race and he would not have been that far behind.
this is why i think sts is a remarkable horse, because he always overcame his rivals even when he looked like he might get beat as in the juddmonte. some will look at that run and say, pah, mastercraftsman, who is he? hes an irish guineas winner for a start. he is a g1 2 yr old winner too and winner of a couple more g1s (i think, i didnt check tbh) but i know his form fairly well and he is a very very good horse with proven g1 form. he looked to have sts in trouble but like the champion he was he pulled out more and then won comfortably. thats the problem with sts, he wasnt exhubrant so it is more difficult to impress, unlike frankel for example.
he had his excuse to throw away the arc too and couldve easy got trapped in a pocket but was able to just round the pacemakers like they werent there. it doesnt look like anything but he clears them in a matter of strides and thats where the race was won and where we wouldve been talking about where mike lost the race had he been a lesser horse. he also raced once a month for 6 months and was truly tested to the extreme unlike frankel which is a pity. and to win all of theose races inc guineas / derby / arc he had to be a special horse. was that year SO weak that a horse could finally complete the treble at 3? in all the years and after all the greats that have passed through our hands? none of them could manage it. there was always something, poor rides, poor temprement, injury etc. there was never any excuse for this horse because he always got himself out of trouble but because he could manage that people put the form down even tho his form is rock solid. sure like anyones form if u look closely enough u will find holes and i will find holes in any horse u mention if u like. sure we'll mention delegator , but he was a good horse with meehan imo, and godolphin are a terrible operation. fame and glory is often regarded as a slow boat. just look at the races hes won. theres npo doubt hes a stayer but he beat everything bar sts in the derby. and rip and mastercrafetman are multiple g1 winners. conduit won 2 breeders cup turfs and a king george and the leger and was also 4th in a japan cup.
cityscape
lord shanakil
stacelita
dar re mi
all g1 winners and multiple gp1 winners who have v close form with midday, sariska, and even canford so this definitely not a below average year and infact stands up to far better scrunity than even frankels form collectively as a group of horses.
zarkava too as brilliant as she was faced fillies her entire life at her home track only running away from longchamp only once and to think what sts did, travelled and connections were scared of a challenge however she did follow the typical french classic campaign so for that she prob cant be crabbed too much but her achievements in comparison with regard to races won pale in comparision to sts. she only faced 2 decent fillys in her life in goldikova and dar re mi and albeit they were v good, goldi improved massively as she got older and if u look at her record at longchamp, it appears she doesnt love that track given her win % there compared to her other races. the rest of the fillies did well to win listed races, the form is diabolical. of course she did win the arc in great fashion and nobody can take that from her but she was prepped for that race and given a mid season rest. sts didnt have the luxury as his metal was being tested by g1 winners every race.
to top it all off mick kinane rode the iron horse and montjeu amongst others and said sts was easily the best hes ever ridden and not only that, he said he only ever got through 75% of the horses ability, and judging by the campaign he had, the trip he had in the arc and the way he eventually won the race, i believe him.
all the best.
this is why i think sts is a remarkable horse, because he always overcame his rivals even when he looked like he might get beat as in the juddmonte. some will look at that run and say, pah, mastercraftsman, who is he? hes an irish guineas winner for a start. he is a g1 2 yr old winner too and winner of a couple more g1s (i think, i didnt check tbh) but i know his form fairly well and he is a very very good horse with proven g1 form. he looked to have sts in trouble but like the champion he was he pulled out more and then won comfortably. thats the problem with sts, he wasnt exhubrant so it is more difficult to impress, unlike frankel for example.
he had his excuse to throw away the arc too and couldve easy got trapped in a pocket but was able to just round the pacemakers like they werent there. it doesnt look like anything but he clears them in a matter of strides and thats where the race was won and where we wouldve been talking about where mike lost the race had he been a lesser horse. he also raced once a month for 6 months and was truly tested to the extreme unlike frankel which is a pity. and to win all of theose races inc guineas / derby / arc he had to be a special horse. was that year SO weak that a horse could finally complete the treble at 3? in all the years and after all the greats that have passed through our hands? none of them could manage it. there was always something, poor rides, poor temprement, injury etc. there was never any excuse for this horse because he always got himself out of trouble but because he could manage that people put the form down even tho his form is rock solid. sure like anyones form if u look closely enough u will find holes and i will find holes in any horse u mention if u like. sure we'll mention delegator , but he was a good horse with meehan imo, and godolphin are a terrible operation. fame and glory is often regarded as a slow boat. just look at the races hes won. theres npo doubt hes a stayer but he beat everything bar sts in the derby. and rip and mastercrafetman are multiple g1 winners. conduit won 2 breeders cup turfs and a king george and the leger and was also 4th in a japan cup.
cityscape
lord shanakil
stacelita
dar re mi
all g1 winners and multiple gp1 winners who have v close form with midday, sariska, and even canford so this definitely not a below average year and infact stands up to far better scrunity than even frankels form collectively as a group of horses.
zarkava too as brilliant as she was faced fillies her entire life at her home track only running away from longchamp only once and to think what sts did, travelled and connections were scared of a challenge however she did follow the typical french classic campaign so for that she prob cant be crabbed too much but her achievements in comparison with regard to races won pale in comparision to sts. she only faced 2 decent fillys in her life in goldikova and dar re mi and albeit they were v good, goldi improved massively as she got older and if u look at her record at longchamp, it appears she doesnt love that track given her win % there compared to her other races. the rest of the fillies did well to win listed races, the form is diabolical. of course she did win the arc in great fashion and nobody can take that from her but she was prepped for that race and given a mid season rest. sts didnt have the luxury as his metal was being tested by g1 winners every race.
to top it all off mick kinane rode the iron horse and montjeu amongst others and said sts was easily the best hes ever ridden and not only that, he said he only ever got through 75% of the horses ability, and judging by the campaign he had, the trip he had in the arc and the way he eventually won the race, i believe him.
all the best.
Ripper post that.
Sea The Stars in the Eclipse, pulling away from the Ripper with Conduit a distant third, was as good as I've seen
Sea The Stars in the Eclipse, pulling away from the Ripper with Conduit a distant third, was as good as I've seen
ilikewavingatbuses - an excellent reply to my post. It is indeed nice to share opinions with a person who has genuine knowledge to back up his own opinions.
The form of the STS Derby is indeed not great and that can't really be denied as Fame And Glory is still a grinder and at the time RVW was more of a Coolmore hypester than performer. Conduit improved for me late in the season and his win in the BC Turf was a really top quality effort but clearly not on the scale of STS. If kinane said STS was better than the mighty Iron horse then that is indeed impressive.
To be fair also STS never ducked any race and you can only beat the opposition put in fron of you and he certainly did that!!! Numerous tracks all victories and no excuses.
This indeed is something other trainers could learn from. Examples of this are Richard Hannon who treated Canford Cliffs like a china doll always taking the safe option and missing any race because the horse sneezed three weeks prior an engagement!!! Thankfully however CC goes what he and Hannon deserved when Frankle whooped em!!! After that Hannon realising his apple would get tonked ongoing by Frankle promptly retired the horse and then stated CC didn't run his race!!! Richie baby CC was never that good and he got thoroughly exposed as being good but not the great you made him out to be!!!
The form of the STS Derby is indeed not great and that can't really be denied as Fame And Glory is still a grinder and at the time RVW was more of a Coolmore hypester than performer. Conduit improved for me late in the season and his win in the BC Turf was a really top quality effort but clearly not on the scale of STS. If kinane said STS was better than the mighty Iron horse then that is indeed impressive.
To be fair also STS never ducked any race and you can only beat the opposition put in fron of you and he certainly did that!!! Numerous tracks all victories and no excuses.
This indeed is something other trainers could learn from. Examples of this are Richard Hannon who treated Canford Cliffs like a china doll always taking the safe option and missing any race because the horse sneezed three weeks prior an engagement!!! Thankfully however CC goes what he and Hannon deserved when Frankle whooped em!!! After that Hannon realising his apple would get tonked ongoing by Frankle promptly retired the horse and then stated CC didn't run his race!!! Richie baby CC was never that good and he got thoroughly exposed as being good but not the great you made him out to be!!!
the derby form was ok, it was as good a derby as recent years, give the achievements of rip van winkle and fame and glory i thought. the rest were average enough with a fair few g2s etc to their name, golden sword etc...
its more what those 2 horses behind did formwise and what the horses they beat then won.
fame and glory is a 5 time g1 winner. he beat sariska, she beat midday etc etc...
rip is a 3 time g1 winner and fin 1/4L behind canford.
it defo no worse than pour moi's and infact none of the horse behind him were as good as rip or fame and glory (on runs so far), likewise workforces derby where rewilding is pretty much the only decent horse in behind and he wasnt a better horse than rip of f&g imo.
and sts laughed at them.
its more what those 2 horses behind did formwise and what the horses they beat then won.
fame and glory is a 5 time g1 winner. he beat sariska, she beat midday etc etc...
rip is a 3 time g1 winner and fin 1/4L behind canford.
it defo no worse than pour moi's and infact none of the horse behind him were as good as rip or fame and glory (on runs so far), likewise workforces derby where rewilding is pretty much the only decent horse in behind and he wasnt a better horse than rip of f&g imo.
and sts laughed at them.
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